| Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Throckbane
   |
Posted - 2010.02.16 16:52:00 -
[31]
If you are losing faction fitted faction battleships to war targets running missions in high sec -- that's a whole different issue.
But if a corp is actually getting on your case for taking a risk with your own isk and fighting a battle against the odds and losing a ship -- they are just as carebear as as average miner and you can completely disregard their opinion.
|
Wensley
Minmatar
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2010.02.17 12:35:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Raimo
Talk about "Eff" makes me cringe. Sure, mine is not as good as it could be and some of the losses I do are ******ed but mostly it's just me trying to get the shakes going and engaging stuff that I probably shouldn't... Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't but having fun is the most important bit IMHO.
...
Of course winning is fun too but nothing wrong with a valiant defeat! (Though always smarter to do the suicidal stuff in insurable T1 boats) :P
QFT. There is nothing more fun than going in, trying to ninja a kill or two, and then valiantly running away (or, more usually) dying in a horrible ball of fire. If there's no risk of dying there's no excitement. Of course, this doesn't mean I don't gank if I see a target but close fights are always more fun!
|
Kanuo Ashkeron
Capital Construction Research
|
Posted - 2010.02.17 12:43:00 -
[33]
For me the really thrilling figths are the close ones. Where you do not know if you will win or loose, if the other guy has some backup or whatever. And I admit, it¦s like 50/50 for me in this fights.
|
Dynast
Eve Defence Force
Systematic-Chaos
|
Posted - 2010.02.18 01:14:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Aka5ha
So I lost 7 ships today, but usually get 7-8 kills maybe 2 losses. I noticed corps get all sensitive about there KB's and the stats they reflect... Do any of you realize getting on 30 killmails as a inty pilot with 10-15 other involved parties means pretty much absolutely nothing. And when the majority of pvpers have 30-50 mil sp why do they expect the same results from a pilot with 10mil sp in pvp?
I noticed this especially with europeans. You guys get so proud from baiting ships and blobbing them with no risk pvp. Wheres the fun? Im really debating on quitting my corp just so I dont have to hear the "oh look at the stats now" routine. I pvp for fun, when your solo the risk of things going wrong increases dramatically.
Look for a better corp. So long as you're not running yourself broke and unable to fleet up with the right ships for corp/alliance ops, an aggressive self-starting attitude towards PvP should be rewarded. I'd go so far as to say that unless there's some very specific reason for maintaining corp efficiency, such as a merc corp trying to prove they wrecked targets days rather than giving them fun pvp action, *****ing about efficiency is a sign of institutional cowardice on the part of the corp.
As for players rather than corps, most who have really good efficiencies either eschew solo PvP in favor of gangs with risk-averse FCs, or limit themselves to ships which can both pick their fights and disengage with ease (vaga, dramiel, recons, etc). I wouldn't wanna play a video game that way, but whatever floats their boat.. until they start acting like they're better than you. That's when you point out that their balls haven't dropped.
|
Darthewok
Perkone
|
Posted - 2010.02.18 05:19:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Darthewok on 18/02/2010 05:25:39
Killboards should have the following 2 stats added:
1) Average ratio of ship points in your gang vs enemy gang in killmails
2) Average number of ships in your gang in killmails
Instantly there is feedback on how "blobby" players and corps are playing.
Eg. If a corp has 99.9999% efficiency but like 4.0 ratio of ship points in gang vs other gang, you can tell its from blobbing. That corp wins mainly because they only fight when they outship the other side by 4x the ship points.
But a PVPer with lets say 55% efficiency but a 1.5 average number of ships in gang can be respected as a solo PVPer. He/she has lower efficiency because of engaging in solo PVP which is riskier, but still wins more fights than he/she loses.
|
Zethro
|
Posted - 2010.02.19 02:45:00 -
[36]
Wait does that mean i am good at pvp ?
|
Raneru
Euphoria Released
|
Posted - 2010.02.19 13:00:00 -
[37]
k/d ratio isn't generally a good way to judge pvp skill these days as anyone who flys about in decent large gang can rack up a good ratio easy.
Most killboards score a kill based on who was on the mail. If you gank a bs with 40 bs you'll get hardly any points where as if you 1v1 a bs you get 500 points (on our kb at least). This is why the top ranked players on battleclinic tend to be solo pvpers.
|
Eelis Kiy
Gallente
Shadows Of The Federation
|
Posted - 2010.02.19 16:35:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Raneru
k/d ratio isn't generally a good way to judge pvp skill these days as anyone who flys about in decent large gang can rack up a good ratio easy.
Most killboards score a kill based on who was on the mail. If you gank a bs with 40 bs you'll get hardly any points where as if you 1v1 a bs you get 500 points (on our kb at least). This is why the top ranked players on battleclinic tend to be solo pvpers.
This mostly^^
Someone who flys around in blobs a lot can easily rack up a nice ratio. It's not a great way of determining someones skill in pvp. You'd need to consider what is actually on their kill list rather than just look at their ratios.
Plus someone who takes a lot of risks and does a lot of solo work and fit experimentation can have a much lower ratio but is arguably a much better pvp'er than the blob pilot. Loosing ships is all part of Eve at the end of the day. How you loose it and what you learn from that is what makes you a better pilot.
|
tagen young
|
Posted - 2010.02.19 17:41:00 -
[39]
I think killboards have a use but looking at raw efficiency is pointless.
My main is only an occasional PVPer and has an efficiency of 99.4% on just over 100 kills 
Now i'm a pretty solid pvper but not a great one. The fact is when he fights the corp he belongs to tends to fly safe and is very blobby.
What i'm saying is context is all important.
|
Darthewok
Perkone
|
Posted - 2010.02.20 03:18:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Darthewok on 20/02/2010 03:20:34
Originally by: tagen young
I think killboards have a use but looking at raw efficiency is pointless.
My main is only an occasional PVPer and has an efficiency of 99.4% on just over 100 kills
Now i'm a pretty solid pvper but not a great one. The fact is when he fights the corp he belongs to tends to fly safe and is very blobby.
What i'm saying is context is all important.
This is exactly why killboards should add 2 stats:
1) average size of gang flown in killmails
2) average ratio of shippoints in your gang vs enemy gang
To show how "blobby" people are playing.
So a solo PVPer or one who fights in outnumbered gangs can justify a lower efficiency.
And blobby PVPers with ultra-high efficiency are not incorrectly assumed to be good PVPers.
Any killboard designers reading this, please consider adding these stats as these will make your killboard far more advanced and useful than the current state.
|
Carlos Corrupt
|
Posted - 2010.02.20 14:51:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Aka5ha
I noticed this especially with europeans. You guys get so proud from baiting ships and blobbing them with no risk pvp. Wheres the fun? Im really debating on quitting my corp just so I dont have to hear the "oh look at the stats now" routine. I pvp for fun, when your solo the risk of things going wrong increases dramatically.
WTF!? You guys blob Iraq and Afghanistan with no risk pvp... :-P
Corps want to make themself a "name", so they are out for a lot of kills no matter how they get them.
Many people judge corps only by the number of their kills without thinking. That¦s the way people are...
|
Aka5ha
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.02.20 22:05:00 -
[42]
Well I ended up quiting the corp after reading a lot of these posts. Kinda realized I wouldnt enjoy flying with them since there mostly EU players and theres no fleets during US timezone. Besides most of the ships I lost were smartie BS's and cheapfleet cruisers, all covered by insurance. Im taking a short break while I move for a couple weeks. But when I get back Ill be looking for a new 0.0 pvp corp. One that dosnt live or die by the KB. If anyone is in a corp, 10-20 active us players, fleet ops as well as in null let me know plz. This is my alt so you cant check ineve though.
|
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
|
Posted - 2010.02.21 01:45:00 -
[43]
I dropped ~5000 places on battleclinic because I suicide ganked a hulk that had its drones out. apparently taking ~40 damage from a pod and 20k+ from concord is a really fail move
and heh 96% eff for isk destroyed/lost. and 97 on kills for/against.
really makes me wonder how the isk eff would work if ship insurance was applied, especially as almost all my losses are battleships.
and as a pirate ganking is the name of the game. isk efficiency is key. A good fight is always nice, but not profitable.
I'd rather see a nice mix of kills/losses, over a bunch of ganks/lolfits on the killboard.
|
Fortuk Monmouth
Genos Occidere
Sev3rance
|
Posted - 2010.02.21 16:48:00 -
[44]
Part of the fun of PvPing is losing ships. I don't care what my eff is.
Originally by: hango
Our corp chat is generally full of people e-hugging and e-snuggling. ISD is cool like that.
|
ShahFluffers
Gallente
Vitharr's Vengeance
|
Posted - 2010.02.21 21:58:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Sha4d13
The issue is not about taking losses- but embarrassing losses. If I see a corp member getting ganked stupidly, repeatedly, then Im going to be tempted to kick him
This.
It really depends on the corp.
My corp, for example, we really don't care about losses per se. Rather, we care more about about isk efficiency. If you throw away 2, 3, or even 6 frigates to hold down a Command Ship (or another type of expensive ship), then the ends justify the means.
On the other hand, we don't really condone the loss of 2 to 6 frigates per kill as it is a sign that you are doing something wrong (and by default, the corp is doing something wrong with regards to your tactics).
In all honesty, PvP corps get sensitive about killmails for simple reason that they have nothing else to measure themselves by.
Mining corps measure themselves by the amount of ore they can extract per hour.
Industrial corps measure themselves by the profit margin they gain off of products they make.
Mission running corps measure themselves by how fast they can complete missions.
You get the point. To a PvP oriented corp, the Killboard is their pride and joy.
"Just because I look like an idiot doesn't mean I am one."
~Unknown |
Darthewok
Perkone
|
Posted - 2010.02.22 11:35:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Darthewok on 22/02/2010 11:47:07
Originally by: ShahFluffers
In all honesty, PvP corps get sensitive about killmails for simple reason that they have nothing else to measure themselves by.
To a PvP oriented corp, the Killboard is their pride and joy.
this is exactly why killboards should have more stats like average gang sizes, and fight odds eg. ship points in your gang/ship points in other gang added to it.
to give PVP corps and PVP players more dimensions to aim for rather than just simple efficiency.
killboard designers, please consider how to improve and widen killboard stats for an EVE with more interesting PVP.
your killboards are not simply records of events.
the very metrics you build into them affect the nature of PVP in EVE.
|
Jotobar
|
Posted - 2010.02.24 08:32:00 -
[47]
In all mmo's you need some numbers to measure efficiency of individuals. Usally the more people you play with the more distorted those numbers get and in eve with massive fleet sizes the ratio means very little. Things like overall kills and interesting loss/kill mails is usally a better measuring stick.
|
Rico Kovacs
Industrial Safety and Hazard Investigation Bureau
|
Posted - 2010.02.24 10:42:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Darthewok
this is exactly why killboards should have more stats like average gang sizes, and fight odds eg. ship points in your gang/ship points in other gang added to it.
to give PVP corps and PVP players more dimensions to aim for rather than just simple efficiency.
Interesting, and I like it, but what about the following scenario:
You are in a BC and take on a small gang with some frigs and a BS. You kill a few frigs and warp out. How can the KB show that? It just looks like you used a BC to kill a frig.
In the end there is only so much a killboard can tell.
|
Darthewok
Perkone
|
Posted - 2010.02.24 10:58:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Darthewok on 24/02/2010 11:07:00
in the illustration above, ideally the killboard should pull the records from the view you get when you click on related kills with participants on each side.
eg. record 3 to 1 number odds and also total the ship points of the 3 ships vs your BC ship points.
in other words if that was your 1st kill your stats should be:
(the usual stuff) points = frigs ship points
(the usual stuff) ISK destroyed = frigs and mods etc. cost
(the usual stuff) efficiency = 100%
(the usual stuff) odds of enemy survival = 0%
average gang numerical odds = 3.0
average gang ship point odds = ship points of BS and frigs/ ship points of your BC
the existence of both numerical odds and ship point odds would give an overall view.
just saying what i think it should be ideally, no idea if it is technically possible.
that is for those technically gifted killboard designers to consider.
if it was indeed possible, it could make killboards considerably more interesting.
|
Van PokerAlho
|
Posted - 2010.02.25 16:32:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Koyo Zerin
Edited by: Koyo Zerin on 15/02/2010 15:25:21
Originally by: Demolishar
I have just over 98% efficiency. Therefore losing a ship will have a huge and terrible impact, but killing a ship will have an almost negligible impact. So I see little point in taking any risks, and only engage in situations where I am 100% certain of victory.
Originally by: Demolishar
Good fights are rare
Methinks these two things might be related.
Methinks you are right.
|
Erawri
The Praxis Initiative
|
Posted - 2010.02.25 18:59:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Erawri on 25/02/2010 19:01:19
Players will have various definitions of how PVP should be fought. In my mind, all our correct. 1v1, 1vmany, manyv1, guaranteed kill, risky kill, nochanceinhell, suicide kill, etc.-- I see the merit in all of them for the generation of fun.
Hopefully it comes down to what's fun for you. This is a past time-- play the way that provides you the most enjoyment and find a corp that is aligned with that.
Cheers
|
bff Jill
|
Posted - 2010.02.26 00:55:00 -
[52]
ive always said killboards were a negative influence.
you dont get good with out losing ships. Lots of them. And you are never good enough. So you should always be losing lots of ships.
|
Cassius Longinus
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
|
Posted - 2010.02.26 16:51:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Frozen Corpses
Ruban Spangler > aahhh i forgot that the KB is everything for you guys
Tainted Orphen > you have <i>no</i> idea
Tainted Orphen > I won't fight if there isn't a 99.9% chance that I will win
hehe, saw this in local while passing through Assah
I get tainted killed all the time, local is where the bluster goes.
My thoughts on efficiency are something like this:
Over a long tracking period, efficiency >95% means you aren't aggressive enough, between 85-95%, and you are probably doing it about right. Below 85%, you have to ask yourself what you are doing wrong. Usually, it means you are not getting your isk's worth out of the ships you fly (modern EDK boards balance against mod costs, but still don't take insurance into account).
Given the normal bias of KB's (when people don't die, aggressors are not shown), every individual who flies in any kind of gang should expect >50% efficiency for 'average' gameplay. I'm not sure what a reasonable number is, but my guess is about 70%. I know, when I evaluate my alliances overall campaigns, below 70% tells me there is room for improvement.
The bottom line, of course, is a balance between "have fun" and "don't be a moron". If your corp is too srsbsns for that, get a new one. It's not as if the vast majority of PVP corps in EVE aren't always happy about getting a bloodthirsty recruit.
|
Epicbeardman
|
Posted - 2010.02.27 01:03:00 -
[54]
Killboards are +wstats.
Ignore it!
|
Ancy Denaries
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.02.28 07:13:00 -
[55]
As long as I destroy more ISK than I lose, I'm good. Which for me means 50%+ efficiency.
----
The Demigodess with a Conscience - An EVE IC Blog
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
rofl
edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
|
Merdaneth
Amarr
Angel Wing.
|
Posted - 2010.02.28 10:11:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
As long as I destroy more ISK than I lose, I'm good. Which for me means 50%+ efficiency.
Only if you fly solo all the time.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Darthewok
Perkone
|
Posted - 2010.02.28 10:34:00 -
[57]
actually, i noticed many killboards already have the number of parties involved for each kill. for example battleclinic.
why not simply give the average parties involved for kills for the latest month and/or for total record.
would that be hard to program in given that the parties involved stat for kills is already there?
|
Ancy Denaries
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.02.28 11:53:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
As long as I destroy more ISK than I lose, I'm good. Which for me means 50%+ efficiency.
Only if you fly solo all the time.
Which I pretty much do. I very rarely fly with gangs.
----
The Demigodess with a Conscience - An EVE IC Blog
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
rofl
edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
|
Bruce Kemp
A Hundred Monkeys
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.03.01 09:21:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Demolishar
I have just over 98% efficiency. Therefore losing a ship will have a huge and terrible impact, but killing a ship will have an almost negligible impact. So I see little point in taking any risks, and only engage in situations where I am 100% certain of victory.
How sad 
|
inVictu5
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2010.03.01 12:19:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Bruce Kemp
Originally by: Demolishar
I have just over 98% efficiency. Therefore losing a ship will have a huge and terrible impact, but killing a ship will have an almost negligible impact. So I see little point in taking any risks, and only engage in situations where I am 100% certain of victory.
How sad
lol definitely. I always admired the muppets because they weren't afraid to lose ships.
Besides, I dont see how you could ever be a space holder if you only engaged targets you were 100% sure you can take.
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |