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Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 02:23:00 - [1] Edited by: Aschera Nintu on 26/02/2010 02:24:02 Hello, what am i going to warn u guys from ? tldr; this is a story of hacking and customer support first to me, i play since 4 years with 4-5 accounts, i reached alot ingame, and im somehow proud of all those achievements. obviously im posting on an alt to save the guys i flew with from forum idiots. What happend: my main account was hacked a few days ago, i dont know how, since i never belived in the hacking storys, to say the truth, in most cases the user turned out to be the problem, like no security on the pc, or giving away the login to some "trustfull friends". i play mmo's since the days of uo, and my pc's are as safe as a homecomputer can be. i never bought isk, nor used 3rd party software, beeing a paranoid persone not even corp members had acces to important assets. but it still happened. after noticing that i cant login anymore, i wrote the obligatory petition, got a quick answer to verify myself as the account owner what i did. one day later i got an email who confirmed that my account has been officialy hacked, and is now after a banning ready for me to get back. and that i hade considerabely more isk in my wallet then before .... The damage done: sure im not "entity" but im a collector soul, and i stored stuff for all my accounts on this main one. a short list of what was in there: several freighters, faction fit faction bs, around 100 normal bs, all faction and navy cruisers and frigs, t2 ships for 3 races, including pimped out commandships, t3 ships, and almost all other subcapital ships in bulk, further around 10k of t2 fitting items, ammo, drones etc, short everything u expect in a well sortet hangar to be there after 4 years of play... not to mention rare items u get when doing cosmos or explorations. researched bpos for t1 stuff including most bs bpo. so with keeping the isk in market all the time i only had around 1bil of liquid cash in my wallet. What was left: about 20 shutles, 2-3 t1 frigs, and thousands of used t2 crystals.. not even my slave clone with officer implants was there anymore cos i had a bounty of a few hundred millions wich were also taken. and indally around 10 bilion isk in my wallet. wtf happened ? : the hacker sold every item he could to buy orders not carying how much they offer, the rest was reprocessed and freitherhauled to jita to do the same. in about 10 hours there were actions in the journal almost every second. so is a t2 rigged, faction fit legion gone for around 100 milions... all in all the loss is around 200 bil. Reimbursement policy: after several mails witch a senior gm, i must say im pretty dissapointed, i cant quote them here for obvious reasons, but i will give a summary on the outcome. on this website theres unter support, game policies, reimbursement policy, a point regarding to hacking: If your account was hacked by another player and items were stolen or transferred to other players, we will investigate and items that we are able to track down will be moved back to the rightful owner. but ccp doesent stick to it! as my items were sold in the market they cant be brought back, as the buyers are unguilty and ccp cant interfere in the market. duping the items back into my hangar is for obvious reasons not an option too, and rollbacks for a single character dont work. so in short, everything i had, is only worth what buy orders payed for them... and a 5 bilion legion is now worth 100m. as the only thing ccp can do, is reimbursing all the isk wich was transfered from my account. needless to say that i dont play anymore, as there is no more trust in the company, and so many of my friends decided the same.. all whats left for me is to warn players on how much theire assets are realy worth, and what kind of help they can expect. greetings ps. u cant have my stuff, its gone pps. u cant have my chars.. they get deleted !
Trustworthy Joe Minmatar	Posted - 2010.02.26 02:29:00 - [2] Originally by: Aschera Nintu Stuff Although being hacked is a tragic incident (i know a few who have been) Imagine how unjust it would have been for you to suddenly have money taken out of your wallet that you earned legitimately through a buy order. CCP cant just take money back from the market, it would ruin the balance in this game. want a sig? thats great! post it in response to my posts!
Tae Ren	Posted - 2010.02.26 02:31:00 - [3] So, umm, your warning is - "Don't get hacked! It's bad for you!" ....alright then
Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 02:49:00 - [4] Originally by: Trustworthy Joe Originally by: Aschera Nintu Stuff CCP cant just take money back from the market, it would ruin the balance in this game. sure, i understand that. and its not the point. the point is, that everything i earned in playing hardcore for 4 years is now gone, then u get 10 bil isk, wich is nothing in eve, and wish u good luck on recoverying ur loss. this is a slap into the face of the customer. this is not an emoranger i quit eve thread cos i lost a mission raven due to worlds collide. i couldnt care less if i get stupid replys or flames, as im already out. and if i can warn some people on what can happen to them and what theire assets are really woth, im glad as this is definitely the last thing i do in eve. greetings
Trustworthy Joe Minmatar	Posted - 2010.02.26 02:58:00 - [5] Originally by: Aschera Nintu Originally by: Trustworthy Joe Originally by: Aschera Nintu Stuff CCP cant just take money back from the market, it would ruin the balance in this game. sure, i understand that. and its not the point. the point is, that everything i earned in playing hardcore for 4 years is now gone, then u get 10 bil isk, wich is nothing in eve, and wish u good luck on recoverying ur loss. this is a slap into the face of the customer. this is not an emoranger i quit eve thread cos i lost a mission raven due to worlds collide. i couldnt care less if i get stupid replys or flames, as im already out. and if i can warn some people on what can happen to them and what theire assets are really woth, im glad as this is definitely the last thing i do in eve. greetings honestly, it sounds like they did the best they could. what did you want, for them to generate isk out of thin air for you? This is eve, you gotta take everything the hard way. want a sig? thats great! post it in response to my posts!
Vitamin B12 Tyrell Megacorporation	Posted - 2010.02.26 02:58:00 - [6] Edited by: Vitamin B12 on 26/02/2010 02:59:01 well first of all i am sorry that your account got hacked. i understand the way how ccp threat you. as the poster before said. sold is sold... every heart something about warehouse containers? i guess they should protect your assest pretty well. if not through the passwort ccp just need to track down this one container. buying BPO's and lock them down (24h need to pass) is also a good solution to save yourself from being hacked i guess. correct me if am wrong with one of the above. but what would interest me most is how you got hacked. you stated several times that you have a pretty secure computer... how did it happen then
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.02.26 02:58:00 - [7] This story explains to hackers and ISK sellers how to laundry their dirty isk: simply set up a few accounts, make really cheap "buy" orders for stuff that costs 10x more, and then when transaction goes thru, CCP can't touch the items which has been bought by the alt accounts. CCP takes away isk gained for the cheap buy order, but the alt account can then proceed to resell the item for its real price. Way to go CCP.
supertrollguy2	Posted - 2010.02.26 03:05:00 - [8] Edited by: supertrollguy2 on 26/02/2010 03:06:43 Why can't the GMs dupe the items back into your hangar and then delete the isk which was made from the sell orders of those items. The people who bought the ships/items etc would still get to keep everything since they acquired it all legitimately. The isk generated from those sell orders by the hacker would be deleted. The only irregularity would be that all the ships and items you lost will be copied and re-appear out of thin air, but this hurts no one. Am I missing something? *Edit: the poster above me makes a good point, I guess nothing can be done
TraininVain	Posted - 2010.02.26 03:21:00 - [9] The current mod policy on this is pretty unsatisfactory tbh. Also pretty unsatisfactory is having the wrong mod policy on the websites. I understand CCP's reluctance to mess with the market but I now know several players who have had their accounts hacked and I only suspect one of those of really having much blame in the matter. In every case this "bought in good faith" policy was adhered to and in none of those cases did it really strike me as satisfactory customer service. CCP are basically saying "You can have your account hacked and your stuff taken off you and we won't sort it out". It's one thing to lose items ingame through not counting the zeros. It's quite another to lose the items because of out of game hacking. I'd say customer confidence in the security of EVE > any "prime directives" regarding not taking stuff back off characters that are probably alts of the guys doing the hacking anyway.
Kapse Locke Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.02.26 03:25:00 - [10] Originally by: Aschera Nintu then u get 10 bil isk, wich is nothing in eve, Cool, can I have your ten billion ISK?
Shurrurru Varion Galactic	Posted - 2010.02.26 03:41:00 - [11] Being hacked is always the fault of the player. It doesn't matter how secure your computer is. If you dig far enough you'll find where you went wrong. Maybe your password was "cookie" and you got dictionary-hacked. Maybe your friend logged into your account to change skills for you one day but HIS computer wasn't secure. If your friends decided to quit EvE because they wouldn't reimburse your lost ships to your own stupidity then those aren't the type of players people want to be playing a game with anyway. Every player that quits over being hacked is one less person making the game so appealing to RMT. This is good news.
Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 03:43:00 - [12] ok, first to the how was i hacked question... i cant tell but im pretty sure that it was not my computer who was hacked. a keylogger would have been found and this could be the only possibility to get the account details. my guess would go to something like beeing unluky in a bruteforce attack to the eveo forums as they use the character login, but ofc this is only a guess. to the station containers.. ofc i had like 20 of em.. just to manage the sheer quantity of items.. but they werent locked... if you would have told me to lock em, i would have answered.. lmao i dont get hacked lol xD and jsut something to think about.. i know real life comparisons suck, specialy in a pew pew spaceship environmet but when it comes to assets and stealing (and i dont mean canflipping here haha)there is a law.. when u buy stolen goods, even withoug knowlege and u get cought, u dont even get ur money reimbursed.. and this law is for a reason...but in the gameworld it would be too much work to write all those buyers a mail that they aquired stolen (hacked) goods and therefore the legion they got for 100 mil (and ofc all the other stuff). will be transfered back to his owner.. could take days of work... its far better (easyer) to punish the victim even more. i would have never complained if i had lost all the stuff due to a stupidity ingame, like gettig scammed, blobbed, ganked, outgunned, outsmarted etc. infact this was a reason i played eve for such a long time, i hate games where u dont lose anything when u die. but doing nothing wrong, getting home from a bar and realizing that everything u had turned to dust feels way too random. greetings
Yarinor Yarinors Trust Fund	Posted - 2010.02.26 03:47:00 - [13] Originally by: Aschera Nintu i know real life comparisons suck, specialy in a pew pew spaceship environmet but when it comes to assets and stealing (and i dont mean canflipping here haha)there is a law.. when u buy stolen goods, even withoug knowlege and u get cought, u dont even get ur money reimbursed.. and this law is for a reason... I don't know where you're from, but if you make a contract with the seller and the seller says the item isn't stolen, you can sue him for reimbursement and you cannot be held responsible.
Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 03:55:00 - [14] Originally by: Shurrurru Being hacked is always the fault of the player. It doesn't matter how secure your computer is. If you dig far enough you'll find where you went wrong. Maybe your password was "cookie" and you got dictionary-hacked. Maybe your friend logged into your account to change skills for you one day but HIS computer wasn't secure. If your friends decided to quit EvE because they wouldn't reimburse your lost ships to your own stupidity then those aren't the type of players people want to be playing a game with anyway. Every player that quits over being hacked is one less person making the game so appealing to RMT. This is good news. yea, sadly enough some days ago i would have answered the same tbh...
Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 04:10:00 - [15] Originally by: Yarinor I don't know where you're from, but if you make a contract with the seller and the seller says the item isn't stolen, you can sue him for reimbursement and you cannot be held responsible. i dont know where the hell ur from, but i live in a civilised world where, when u get cought buying a new luxury car for 100 bucks, u can say goodbay to the car and ur money for sure. greetings
Ryhss Caldari	Posted - 2010.02.26 04:23:00 - [16] Edited by: Ryhss on 26/02/2010 04:24:07 Originally by: Trustworthy Joe Originally by: Aschera Nintu Originally by: Trustworthy Joe Originally by: Aschera Nintu Stuff CCP cant just take money back from the market, it would ruin the balance in this game. sure, i understand that. and its not the point. the point is, that everything i earned in playing hardcore for 4 years is now gone, then u get 10 bil isk, wich is nothing in eve, and wish u good luck on recoverying ur loss. this is a slap into the face of the customer. this is not an emoranger i quit eve thread cos i lost a mission raven due to worlds collide. i couldnt care less if i get stupid replys or flames, as im already out. and if i can warn some people on what can happen to them and what theire assets are really woth, im glad as this is definitely the last thing i do in eve. greetings honestly, it sounds like they did the best they could. what did you want, for them to generate isk out of thin air for you? This is eve, you gotta take everything the hard way. They can generate any amount of ISK with a few lines of code. There is no real economy, Eve is a game.(a great game, but a game) This is my sig, stop reading.
Epicbeardman	Posted - 2010.02.26 04:25:00 - [17] Originally by: Aschera Nintu Originally by: Yarinor I don't know where you're from, but if you make a contract with the seller and the seller says the item isn't stolen, you can sue him for reimbursement and you cannot be held responsible. i dont know where the hell ur from, but i live in a civilised world where, when u get cought buying a new luxury car for 100 bucks, u can say goodbay to the car and ur money for sure. greetings If you're going with the real life comparisons, here's one for you. Do you think your insurance company pays up if they find out your house was looted clean because you lost the key and neglected to replace the locks? Or worse, you didn't lock the doors at all? No. They don't. Bye.
LordSkully	Posted - 2010.02.26 04:44:00 - [18] My goodness... My guess is this is CCP fail. Way to return this guys stuff... or not.
Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 05:14:00 - [19] Originally by: Epicbeardman Do you think your insurance company pays up if they find out your house was looted clean because you lost the key and neglected to replace the locks? Or worse, you didn't lock the doors at all? No. They don't. Bye. well, i explained more then once that i did everything to secure my computer, and i guess i do more then 99% of all users. to go on with the looted house.. in this case the insurance company hast to proove that my house was unsafe, otherwise they have to pay. hard to prove that my computer is as save as i can make it as a non it specialist. so ur comparison sucks
Butzewutze	Posted - 2010.02.26 05:43:00 - [20] Edited by: Butzewutze on 26/02/2010 05:43:44 Originally by: Aschera Nintu ok, first to the how was i hacked question... i cant tell but im pretty sure that it was not my computer who was hacked. a keylogger would have been found and this could be the only possibility to get the account details. If i write a keylogger especially for you, how can u find it? I would bundle it with another EXE-file, maybe EFT or something and your trusty Antivir would have no chance to find it because they only can find allready known bad code.
Triple Entendre Emergence Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.26 05:47:00 - [21] wtb 5bil Legion for 100m
Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 05:49:00 - [22] Originally by: Butzewutze If i write a keylogger especially for you, how can u find it? I would bundle it with another EXE-file, maybe EFT or something and your trusty Antivir would have no chance to find it because they only can find allready known bad code. that might be, but how will u hand that exe to me ? send me a link ? program a fake site hoping that i will ever go there ?.. theres no way u could hand me ur lil present, even if u programmed it just for me.
Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiau	Posted - 2010.02.26 05:53:00 - [23] If your password was brute forced, then you had a bad password. Simple as that. Way more propable is of course, that you use the same password for multiple games / websites whatever. Not every websites stores password in a very secure manner. So for important stuff, always make a new password. Can be a pain to remember, but it's worth it.
Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 06:00:00 - [24] Originally by: Triple Entendre wtb 5bil Legion for 100m already sold out xD
Epicbeardman	Posted - 2010.02.26 06:10:00 - [25] Edited by: Epicbeardman on 26/02/2010 06:11:49 Edited by: Epicbeardman on 26/02/2010 06:11:35 Originally by: Aschera Nintu in this case the insurance company hast to proove that my house was unsafe Your account being "hacked" is that proof genius. You clicked a keylogger. You gave your password to a friend. You had Pancake as your password. Whatever happened, it was your fault. Bye. Quote: If i write a keylogger especially for you, how can u find it? I would bundle it with another EXE-file, maybe EFT or something and your trusty Antivir would have no chance to find it because they only can find allready known bad code. Somoeone's been watching Hackers. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Thrasymachus TheSophist	Posted - 2010.02.26 06:14:00 - [26] Edited by: Thrasymachus TheSophist on 26/02/2010 06:15:20 That really sucks and I agree that CCP's response is weak. The problem is that you might be trying to trick them ... I would like to think that they would be willing to track down what they can and get reverse the sales/transfers. As for real life comparisons: 1. If a "buyer in due course" purchases stolen goods, but does so in "good faith" (meaning, they have no actual knowledge that it was stolen and no reason to know it was stolen), then you can't get it back from the purcahser. At least, thats the law in the U.S. If they buy a luxury car for $100, they didn't buy it in "good faith" and you're right, they'll lose it ... 2. If you have homeowners insurance and your house is robbed, they pay. Regardless of whether the door was locked or not. If they think you were in on it, they won't pay and there will be a lawsuit to determine if you were or were not in on it. Of course, neither of these has any bearing on an MMO ...
Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 06:16:00 - [27] Originally by: Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiau If your password was brute forced, then you had a bad password. Simple as that. Way more propable is of course, that you use the same password for multiple games / websites whatever. Not every websites stores password in a very secure manner. So for important stuff, always make a new password. Can be a pain to remember, but it's worth it. /me is aware of that somehow i knew that i could post whatever i wanted in my op and still would have to say, no i didnt to this, thant and specialy not those things... but ok, lets go throu it... password was complex = check, password and username were not related to my charname = check, password and username never used in the same combination for anything else = check. trust me im a very paranoid person, i even got a password detection on my pc at home, where i am the only person who has access to
Zhana Agonskaya	Posted - 2010.02.26 06:25:00 - [28] You still have ya skills built up from 4 years of play, so should be no problem earning that isk back.. **** happens.. Worse thing you can do is quit
Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 06:28:00 - [29] Originally by: Epicbeardman You clicked a keylogger. You gave your password to a friend. You had Pancake as your password. Whatever happened, it was your fault. Bye. yea and the world is flat, it has been proven, honestly every1 who says something else is a liar!! seriously does it work for u when everything seems to be so simple ? i wanted to inform ppl on how ccp treats there customers by not sticking to theire own terms of agreement. but guess what, u can flame me all day long i dont care, i red this forums for years, now im out and wear the thikest flamesuit u can imagine. :)
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2010.02.26 06:41:00 - [30] Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 26/02/2010 06:44:02 They did the right thing TBH. Here are the reasons why: 1 - The security of your account is mainly your responsibility. CCP could offer authenticators to make it more secure, but the responsibility in all cases on the user. The alternative to that isn't really feesible. 2 - It is only fair that innocents are being protected. This means the market transactions will have to remain unless they have reasons to suspect the trades of being made to ISK laundering accounts. You might be ****ed, but you failed in your responsibility while others didn't. It is only just that you suffer all damages, that can't be recovered from the 'hacker'. It also makes sense to have one guy ragequit, than steal the property of hundreds of innocent players and risk them leaving. 3 - Duping items isn't kool. It wouldn't matter in a single case, but as a policy it would create a huge isk/item faucet to the game, that would again punish all players. It would also be used to fake incidents in an effort to dupe assets. The no dupin policy assures there is no point in trying such scams. Again it is best to limit the damage done and limit it to the persons who failed to live up to their responsibilities. That would be you, the 'hacker' and possible alt accounts. I know you are butthurt over this and will leave, but there is nothing wrong with CCPs current policy. It is better to let you go, than open the floodgates to bigger problems down the road. The only error CCP have made is not providing additional security measures for people who want to be extra sure their accounts stay protected. It might be a simple thing and earn them some extra income.
Benri Konpaku	Posted - 2010.02.26 06:48:00 - [31] Man that sucks, but yeah CCP probably can't do much because if they start duplicating items in those amounts of ISK there's a chance of people actually abusing the reinbursement policy even if it's just a one time event. Sorry I can't give much moral support, but being the way I am about computers I'd probably recommend you to make a clean reinstall of your OS anyway just in case you actually got a bug somehow. The process is just too fast nowadays so there's no reason to risk losing even more besides your EVE assets.
Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 06:50:00 - [32] Originally by: Zhana Agonskaya You still have ya skills built up from 4 years of play, so should be no problem earning that isk back.. for what ? that everytime i log in, i need to fear that it is gone all again ? and yes its hard to quit, ive done almost everything u can do in eve, its a fantastic game, but human beeings (some of em) are able to learn from mistakes.. and if u get screwed up once.. ull try not get screwed up again. and if u cant find the reason for beeing screwed up at ur side, u cant change anything to prevent it in the future. so it looks like i have to logical options.. first one would be to turn my already pretty save computer into a government security monster (didnt even the pentagon got hacked once ??) what i cant and what wouldnt prevent anything if the hacking did not run through my pc. or just move on...
SlayerOfArgus Gallente The Industrial Federation	Posted - 2010.02.26 07:30:00 - [33] I wish CCP would let you put assembled ships into containers. I'm sure that most people have rigs on their ships that they wouldn't destroy just to put into a container. But if we had the ability to put all our items into containers and create secure passwords for them then our accounts would be that much safer, because then our wallets only would be the things that were at risk. Which that would still suck but it would be a lot less worse than having practically every single item taken away.
Epicbeardman	Posted - 2010.02.26 07:43:00 - [34] Quote: yea and the world is flat, it has been proven, honestly every1 who says something else is a liar!! You think too much of yourself. Nobody with the skill to hack into a properly secured EVE account or computer is going to bother with your virtual currency. You're not even close to worth the effort. Seriously lying to us about getting keylogged is bad enough, but lying to yourself is just pathetic.
Yakumo Smith Gallente No End To Infinity Fleetingly Finite	Posted - 2010.02.26 08:34:00 - [35] Originally by: Aschera Nintu ok, first to the how was i hacked question... i cant tell but im pretty sure that it was not my computer who was hacked. a keylogger would have been found and this could be the only possibility to get the account details. my guess would go to something like beeing unluky in a bruteforce attack to the eveo forums as they use the character login, but ofc this is only a guess. to the station containers.. ofc i had like 20 of em.. just to manage the sheer quantity of items.. but they werent locked... if you would have told me to lock em, i would have answered.. lmao i dont get hacked lol xD and jsut something to think about.. i know real life comparisons suck, specialy in a pew pew spaceship environmet but when it comes to assets and stealing (and i dont mean canflipping here haha)there is a law.. when u buy stolen goods, even withoug knowlege and u get cought, u dont even get ur money reimbursed.. and this law is for a reason...but in the gameworld it would be too much work to write all those buyers a mail that they aquired stolen (hacked) goods and therefore the legion they got for 100 mil (and ofc all the other stuff). will be transfered back to his owner.. could take days of work... its far better (easyer) to punish the victim even more. i would have never complained if i had lost all the stuff due to a stupidity ingame, like gettig scammed, blobbed, ganked, outgunned, outsmarted etc. infact this was a reason i played eve for such a long time, i hate games where u dont lose anything when u die. but doing nothing wrong, getting home from a bar and realizing that everything u had turned to dust feels way too random. greetings Even the best security can't protect you if you use software that vulnrabilities in it. Everyone remembers to update IE when flaws are found, but how many are quick to update Adobe software? I suppose this must be my sig. I'll do something cool with it eventually.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.02.26 09:00:00 - [36] Originally by: SlayerOfArgus I wish CCP would let you put assembled ships into containers. I'm sure that most people have rigs on their ships that they wouldn't destroy just to put into a container. But if we had the ability to put all our items into containers and create secure passwords for them then our accounts would be that much safer, because then our wallets only would be the things that were at risk. Which that would still suck but it would be a lot less worse than having practically every single item taken away. you know you can right click -> recover password on a can right? and there is almost always a vulnerability somewhere.
Anvalor Gallente Germania Inc. D0GMA	Posted - 2010.02.26 09:27:00 - [37] It would be funny if those people who say " it is your fault, this is eve and so on" got their account hacked and we could see if they still would give the same answers. I also think eve should be a harsh game but what is so wrong about if those people who got a faction fitted legion for 100 mil for example, would get the ship removed and their money back. Ok they might have sold it allready for more and so on but in the end they could have only done that because someones acount got hacked. My bet is that not one single person here would say to himself "Well i have to suck it up, this is eve" except they are very rich and do not have to care about their money. At least i would not care if i had so much money that it does not matter if i lose a few billions. Hypocrites everywhere these days
Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2010.02.26 09:45:00 - [38] Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 26/02/2010 09:45:37 The logic that "you got hacked, its your own fault" is quite silly. Really, the people who utter it is as thoughtless as can be. Its just like saying "you did not wear a bulletproff vest when you walked your dog, so its your own fault for being shot". Come on. Even if a victim is stupid and do not know what security is, its not his fault for being hacked. Its the hackes fault. Some victimes are just easier to hack then others. Taking counter mesuers is the wise thing to do, but one is never 100% air tight, and given a good hacker anyone can be hacked. And even if the victim is easy prey does not mean its his fault, its stil the hackers who did it. So stop the bull**** about the victim being at fault, its fundamantally flawd logic only befitting childern. And no, I have never been hacked, I take precautions, but even so I am not invulranble.
Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2010.02.26 09:46:00 - [39] Edited by: Nika Dekaia on 26/02/2010 09:57:27 Originally by: Aschera Nintu as my items were sold in the market they cant be brought back, as the buyers are unguilty and ccp cant interfere in the market. duping the items back into my hangar is for obvious reasons not an option too, and rollbacks for a single character dont work. This has allways beeen CCPs policy for good reasons. What is it you want CCP to do? They did all they could without screwing up other people for your sake. Your thread just shows that you are never 100% secure. So what? Quitting over this would be rather sad. Don't you play to have fun and be with friends? You still have A LOT of ISK.
Fat Uncle	Posted - 2010.02.26 09:49:00 - [40] I feel your pain. It must be very hard to have all your stuff vanish, and now you can hardly affort any decent capitals anymore. I wouldn't want to go back to the old days when I had to mine for hours in my Bantam, or be forced to post all lowercase.
Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2010.02.26 09:51:00 - [41] Originally by: Lindsay Logan It wasn't his fault. Maybe, maybe not. No way to verify. And that's why CCP treats everyone who gets hacked the same. Transfered ISK are reimbursed. Market sales can not be reverted for obvious reasons. There's no other way to handle it.
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.02.26 10:00:00 - [42] Edited by: Zartrader on 26/02/2010 10:01:44 Originally by: Aschera Nintu Originally by: Zhana Agonskaya You still have ya skills built up from 4 years of play, so should be no problem earning that isk back.. for what ? that everytime i log in, i need to fear that it is gone all again ? and yes its hard to quit, ive done almost everything u can do in eve, its a fantastic game, but human beeings (some of em) are able to learn from mistakes.. and if u get screwed up once.. ull try not get screwed up again. and if u cant find the reason for beeing screwed up at ur side, u cant change anything to prevent it in the future. so it looks like i have to logical options.. first one would be to turn my already pretty save computer into a government security monster (didnt even the pentagon got hacked once ??) what i cant and what wouldnt prevent anything if the hacking did not run through my pc. or just move on... I do have a lot of sympathy for you but CCP's policy is the only correct one as to do otherwise would open up a lot of game abuse. They do trace the ISK (as some buyers are RMT buyers) and it may lead to several bans but that won't help you much. Really the s****bags are those who did this, not CCP and it's a shame there are no practical legal means to get to them. It really does not help that you do not know how they got your account details. I suspect if you could confirm it was your fault you would feel better able to deal with it. I assume you have run keylogger and trojan checkers (which most virus checkers won't detect) but really there are a multitude of ways they could have got in. If CCP took time to close your account after you notified them I would ask for that ISK back though as they should have closed your account ASAP.
Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 10:23:00 - [43] hi again, and im glad to see that there are some constructive posts between the flames too ;) i surely can understand ccp too, in some way it seems logical, and creating isk out of nowhere is not right too, nor is duping.. and to remember the reason i posted, wasnt meant to cry bout the loss.. im already over it... but to make public that statements like this: 10. HACKING & ACCOUNT TRANSFERS Hacking is any unauthorized access to another personÆs account, by illegal means or not. 1. If your account was hacked by another player and items were stolen or transferred to other players, we will investigate and items that we are able to track down will be moved back to the rightful owner. makes players feel safe, cos they think.. ok if the worst case will happen, ccp will do anything to prevent harm done to you. but this is simply not true. instead u get a mail where ur told to recover ur losses and keep enjoing eve. maybe they should update it to something like: if u get hacked, its ur fault, ur screwed, nobody will help u.. prepare to get flamed! would be much clearer xD
TraininVain	Posted - 2010.02.26 10:36:00 - [44] Edited by: TraininVain on 26/02/2010 10:43:21 CCP will happily remove ISK from people's wallets if they think it's bought. You don't even have to have a security flaw on your computer to get hacked btw. There's been a couple of people I've known where it's been quite the mystery. OK sure, some people you do just think "Yeah, you bought ISK" or "Yeah, you boobed with security" but.... Forums are fairly insecure for example. I realise technically you should tier up your passwords if not have separate passwords for everything but I bet most people do not.
Jags Minmatar M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2010.02.26 10:37:00 - [45] Had one of my alt accounts hacked and the same thing happened , the bastard sold everything at market buy orders (some lucky guy got a Nomad for 400m) and CCP cant return the items. Had a lot of faction junk and some pretty rare items so it was a bit of a boot in the sack to lose all my collection but looking at it another way it gives a fresh chance to restart with a decent amount of ISK and to do something different. Best advice I can give is just to keep going , were you ever going to use all that junk you had collected and just go mental havign some fun losing ships :D
Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 10:55:00 - [46] restart doing something new ? im not a 04 veteran, but with 06 pretty close... with my different accounts ive done all there is to do in eve... empire warfare, lowsec piracy, 00 blobfests, gatecamps, big aliances, small guerila warfare, trading, researching, manufacturing, exploring, ninjalooting, scamming, lofty'ing, pos-setups, pos-annihilations, canstealing, 4-boxing (nothig i will miss, 3 accounts at the same time is enough)corp leading, wormholes... oh yea and in the beginning even some missionrunning and mining (ok now u can flamee me ahahah) the fun i had the last months was flying (and fight) in pimped out ships .. just becouse i could
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2010.02.26 11:10:00 - [47] Originally by: Aschera Nintu password and username never used in the same combination for anything else = check. Are you saying you were using them for other things, just not in the same combination? Free jumpclone service\|874 stations - Truly Universal
Arvano	Posted - 2010.02.26 11:14:00 - [48] I get rather sick of seeing this "I got hacked". I get sick of it because 100% of the time it is followed by "I never gave my password out and never downloaded anything that looked fishy and and and and and and and and". You can't just get hacked unless you give out your password or you go to a scam website that looks exactly like CCP's website where you put in your username and password and it gets stolen, or you download something with a keylogger in it. You did one of those. You have to have done one of those, yet all are so very very easy to avoid, by simply NOT giving out your password, ALWAYS checking the address of the website before putting in your username and password, and not downloading ANYTHING unless it's from a trusted download site. Hate to sound like a **** but anybody that gets hacked has only themselves to blame. I've also been playing MMO's for over 6 years and I've never been hacked.
Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 11:24:00 - [49] Edited by: Aschera Nintu on 26/02/2010 11:26:46 no the password comment was meant that i have several usernames & several passwords used for different purposes, for games they are all unique, sorry if that was spelled missleading. Originally by: Arvano I get rather sick of seeing this "I got hacked". I get sick of it because 100% of the time it is followed by "I never gave my password out and never downloaded anything that looked fishy and and and and and and and and". You can't just get hacked unless you give out your password or you go to a scam website that looks exactly like CCP's website where you put in your username and password and it gets stolen, or you download something with a keylogger in it. You did one of those. You have to have done one of those, yet all are so very very easy to avoid, by simply NOT giving out your password, ALWAYS checking the address of the website before putting in your username and password, and not downloading ANYTHING unless it's from a trusted download site. Hate to sound like a **** but anybody that gets hacked has only themselves to blame. I've also been playing MMO's for over 6 years and I've never been hacked. double the time for me.. and ive never been hacked too.. like i stated before.. i would have answered exactly like u a few days ago.. so theres no animosity against u.. altogh it gets boring to keep saying that i didnt do anything of what u mentioned.. infact i did even more paranoid stuff to protect my accounts.. but i already explained that in previous posts
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.02.26 11:26:00 - [50] Originally by: Trustworthy Joe Although being hacked is a tragic incident (i know a few who have been) Imagine how unjust it would have been for you to suddenly have money taken out of your wallet that you earned legitimately through a buy order. CCP cant just take money back from the market, it would ruin the balance in this game. If it can be decided that the account was not hacked due to isk buying and there is a record of what happened on the market, that is bogus. If you buy something from the market that is too good to be true there are three possibilities of why the items were priced so low. One being that the person made a mistake. Two being the owner accepted the loss due to need to liquidate quickly (least likely option). Thirdly, it is being sold without the true owners authorization. If CCP, can beyond a shadow of a doubt, track the transactions and decide that the account was not hacked due to isk buying, then it should be set straight. I can not see how these, more then likely, infrequent situations would be hard to resolve. That being said, I have no clue how databases really work, but if they can go in and reverse isk seller transactions when they are located, or they can start deleting stuff as in the Moon Goo incident, then CCP should be able to give a "legit" victim of a hacker their goods back. CCP: You recently bought a rigged faction BS for 100 million. We have decided that this item was illegally sold due to a hacker getting acces to an account through means other then we, CCP, would hold the original owner accountable. Pilot: But, but I bought that hsip fair and square off the market. CCP: Deal with it, here is your 100 million back. No true market disruption occured in the above scenario, item was returned to rightfull owner and they buyer got their isk back. Real question. Do people that unknowingly get caught in an isk laundering sceam get to keep the isk that they got through those transactions, if it discovered? Slade Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat! ≡v≡
RedClaws Amarr Dragon's Rage E C L I P S E	Posted - 2010.02.26 11:27:00 - [51] How does a 5 bil legion get sold though? Repackaged and sold in subsystems to the market? What about non-market items? Just the best WTB contract in the region? Seems a bit exploitable imo.
Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 11:31:00 - [52] Originally by: Slade Trillgon Originally by: Trustworthy Joe Although being hacked is a tragic incident (i know a few who have been) Imagine how unjust it would have been for you to suddenly have money taken out of your wallet that you earned legitimately through a buy order. CCP cant just take money back from the market, it would ruin the balance in this game. If it can be decided that the account was not hacked due to isk buying and there is a record of what happened on the market, that is bogus. If you buy something from the market that is too good to be true there are three possibilities of why the items were priced so low. One being that the person made a mistake. Two being the owner accepted the loss due to need to liquidate quickly (least likely option). Thirdly, it is being sold without the true owners authorization. If CCP, can beyond a shadow of a doubt, track the transactions and decide that the account was not hacked due to isk buying, then it should be set straight. I can not see how these, more then likely, infrequent situations would be hard to resolve. That being said, I have no clue how databases really work, but if they can go in and reverse isk seller transactions when they are located, or they can start deleting stuff as in the Moon Goo incident, then CCP should be able to give a "legit" victim of a hacker their goods back. CCP: You recently bought a rigged faction BS for 100 million. We have decided that this item was illegally sold due to a hacker getting acces to an account through means other then we, CCP, would hold the original owner accountable. Pilot: But, but I bought that hsip fair and square off the market. CCP: Deal with it, here is your 100 million back. No true market disruption occured in the above scenario, item was returned to rightfull owner and they buyer got their isk back. Real question. Do people that unknowingly get caught in an isk laundering sceam get to keep the isk that they got through those transactions, if it discovered? Slade yea this would be the most fair option from my perspective .. but i am only 1 victim.. and this job would require alot of human work to get through all those items... and would create alot of "innocent" lowbuyers who legaly bought stolen goods. so the simple option is to screw 1 guy, it costs just a few words in an email... sad but true
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2010.02.26 11:31:00 - [53] Sounds like a nasty thing. And very difficult to resolve also. What do you suggest they should do? The only viable option is that they reverse the market transactions - giving the player(s) who bought the stuff the money back and remove the item(s) from them and put the stuff into your hangar again. Replacing the clone with implants shouldn't be a problem at all.
Ker HarSol Minmatar Zip - I	Posted - 2010.02.26 11:37:00 - [54] Create your own corp. Give 1 share each to your friends. Move stuff to corp hangar. Lockdown all the items. Now, if you are hacked you still need 24 hours to unlock those things via corp-vote. And your friends will notice that due to the shares/voting system and can ask back if all is okay. 24 hours time to act. Not much, but better than nothing. Sure you wont be able to just move the stuff and use it whenever you want. But as collector you wouldn't do that often anyway, would you?
Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 11:37:00 - [55] Originally by: RedClaws How does a 5 bil legion get sold though? Repackaged and sold in subsystems to the market? What about non-market items? Just the best WTB contract in the region? Seems a bit exploitable imo. the option a non-gm player has to analyse what happend is just to check the recent sales. i know that there has been no contracts done.. and obviously u cant sell a rigged and fitted ship on the market.. nor can u do it with most faction stuff and items. so every1 can make his own conclusion on what happend. i just saw ships and modules sold in the history.. means the riggs and fittings have been stripped... as last transactions done there were several freighter loads of minerals sold in jita. i cant tell if the faction goods were handed to another player via a direct trade, or just reprocessed. if they would have been traded between players, im sure ccp would have reimbursed them.. but they didnt..
Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2010.02.26 11:46:00 - [56] Originally by: Slade Trillgon If it can be decided that the account was not hacked due to isk buying and there is a record of what happened on the market, that is bogus. If you buy something from the market that is too good to be true there are three possibilities of why the items were priced so low. One being that the person made a mistake. Two being the owner accepted the loss due to need to liquidate quickly (least likely option). Thirdly, it is being sold without the true owners authorization. If CCP, can beyond a shadow of a doubt, track the transactions and decide that the account was not hacked due to isk buying, then it should be set straight. I can not see how these, more then likely, infrequent situations would be hard to resolve. That being said, I have no clue how databases really work, but if they can go in and reverse isk seller transactions when they are located, or they can start deleting stuff as in the Moon Goo incident, then CCP should be able to give a "legit" victim of a hacker their goods back. CCP: You recently bought a rigged faction BS for 100 million. We have decided that this item was illegally sold due to a hacker getting acces to an account through means other then we, CCP, would hold the original owner accountable. Pilot: But, but I bought that hsip fair and square off the market. CCP: Deal with it, here is your 100 million back. No true market disruption occured in the above scenario, item was returned to rightfull owner and they buyer got their isk back. Real question. Do people that unknowingly get caught in an isk laundering sceam get to keep the isk that they got through those transactions, if it discovered? Slade The possible amount of transactions which had to be tracked and reverted in the market make it just not feasible to do so. It's not a simple: player bought ship. Will now get ship taken away and his ISK back (which still would be a annoyance to him just because someone else screwed up). A player might have bought a cheap ship, lost it in PvP, salvaged the wreck and the mods, sold them, bought another ship with those ISK, insured it, lost it again,....and so on. That's why CCP will not interfere with the market transactions ever. Because scamming is allowed in Eve you can't just say: You should have known this ship was too cheap to be true. Therefore we'll take it away from you. Quote: If CCP, can beyond a shadow of a doubt, track the transactions and decide that the account was not hacked due to isk buying, then it should be set straight. That's like opening a whole can of worms right there. Who is to determine "beyond a shadow of a doubt"? That deffinition is still too vague and would generate even more emo rage. Therefore: strict stance on how to deal with account thefts.
Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 11:47:00 - [57] Originally by: Ker HarSol Create your own corp. Give 1 share each to your friends. Move stuff to corp hangar. Lockdown all the items. Now, if you are hacked you still need 24 hours to unlock those things via corp-vote. And your friends will notice that due to the shares/voting system and can ask back if all is okay. 24 hours time to act. Not much, but better than nothing. Sure you wont be able to just move the stuff and use it whenever you want. But as collector you wouldn't do that often anyway, would you? the reason i had so much items was sure.. a collectors soul, but also the freedom of flexibility.. when we had a fight comming, it was like .. uhm do i take out the mach, the nightmare or the baahl today... i think i was one of the few players in eve who realy did pvp in those ships. or just go rat in a phantasm in lowsec, this was the moments i still felt an adrenalin push, cos i knew every single guy in system wanted me on theire kb. this leads to some awesome fights (and ofc stupid losses too haha)but having a lot of tools to choose from nearby is the key here.
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.02.26 11:48:00 - [58] Originally by: Aschera Nintu yea this would be the most fair option from my perspective .. but i am only 1 victim.. and this job would require alot of human work to get through all those items... and would create alot of "innocent" lowbuyers who legaly bought stolen goods. so the simple option is to screw 1 guy, it costs just a few words in an email... sad but true I am not talking about going down and returing every T1 and T2 items that were hijacked, but I would think that the market history or contract history would easily show unique items/CCP gifts, Faction ships, T2 and T3 ships, and maybe a few other item types, that would not create many problems other then the tears of those that got the type of deals that would be treated as "hot" in the real world. I know this is not the real world but the reimbursement policy is pretty clear and I think that my interpretation is fairly correct. For those that do not want to check the reimbursement policy I will post it again. 10. HACKING & ACCOUNT TRANSFERS Hacking is any unauthorized access to another personÆs account, by illegal means or not. If your account was hacked by another player and items were stolen or transferred to other players, we will investigate and items that we are able to track down will be moved back to the rightful owner. Note: In some cases we are unable to track down all items that were stolen and we cannot refund those. Furthermore, we cannot refund any loss due to information the hacker may have acquired or given away, such as bookmarks or EVE-mail. If someone gained access to your account as a result of your use of a third party program, all requests for reimbursement will be null and void. END CCP POLICY: Again it seems that you should at least get back the most uniques items that were in your inventory, if there is still a record of the transactions. Slade Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat! ≡v≡
Brock Lando	Posted - 2010.02.26 11:51:00 - [59] Now that's interesting. A corpmate got his multiple accounts hacked, many billions in assets were stolen including multiple T2 BPOs. After months of investigation CCP gave him his assets and ISK back, except for the T2 BPOs. Upon inquiry why no BPOs, the answer was basically "you never had those". But that is not the interesting part. The interesting part is that in context of the OP, GM actions about how to deal with account hacking are not consistent. Some get their stuff back, others not.
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.02.26 12:00:00 - [60] Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 26/02/2010 12:01:16 First off this is not a scam, this is an issue of hacking. Originally by: Nika Dekaia The possible amount of transactions which had to be tracked and reverted in the market make it just not feasible to do so. It's not a simple: player bought ship. Will now get ship taken away and his ISK back (which still would be a annoyance to him just because someone else screwed up). A player might have bought a cheap ship, lost it in PvP, salvaged the wreck and the mods, sold them, bought another ship with those ISK, insured it, lost it again,....and so on. That's why CCP will not interfere with the market transactions ever. Because scamming is allowed in Eve you can't just say: You should have known this ship was too cheap to be true. Therefore we'll take it away from you. Quote: If CCP, can beyond a shadow of a doubt, track the transactions and decide that the account was not hacked due to isk buying, then it should be set straight. That's like opening a whole can of worms right there. Who is to determine "beyond a shadow of a doubt"? That deffinition is still too vague and would generate even more emo rage. Therefore: strict stance on how to deal with account thefts. If the type of items that I mentioned above (all T1 and T2 modules can be said goodby too) can be located and have not been destroyed then they should be returned. If they have been blown up then they can not be "tracked" to an item that was in the original owners posession, and therefore will not be reimbursed. I am fairly sure that CCP can decide beyond a shadow of a doubt, considering that they say (paraphrased) "if it is decided that the losses are due to 3rd party programs zero items will be reimbursed." But, EULA's are never written to favor the client for obvious reasons Slade Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat! ≡v≡
Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2010.02.26 12:03:00 - [61] Originally by: Slade Trillgon Again it seems that you should at least get back the most uniques items that were in your inventory, if there is still a record of the transactions. Slade So player A lost a nightmare, player B lost a paladin. Faction and T2. Which one is unique? It's about CCP having a clear stance. Who is to determine what is to be reimbursed and what not? It just can't work that way. CCP just can't put up the manpower to track it all down and can not be held to be responsible to justify why A was reimbursed and B not. Can you imagine what would happen on the forums and in the petition queue because many players would (more or less rightfull) claim to be treated bad by CCP compared to others?
Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 12:03:00 - [62] i think i have a good solution now.. some1 in an other board said that i should sell all my chars instead fo deleting them, buy plexes with the money and donate them all to haiti. this way i can make sure all this sh*t still had a good outcome...
Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2010.02.26 12:07:00 - [63] Originally by: Aschera Nintu i think i have a good solution now.. some1 in an other board said that i should sell all my chars instead fo deleting them, buy plexes with the money and donate them all to haiti. this way i can make sure all this sh*t still had a good outcome... Still sad seeing you leaving. But if you feel you won't have any more fun in this game, this is a respectable way to leave. May those hackers die a slow and miserable death (IG).
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.02.26 12:08:00 - [64] Here's another anti-hacking tip: Do not have a character name that's the same as (or even similar to) your user name. If the hacker doesn't have your user name, brute force attacks become a lot harder. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.02.26 12:12:00 - [65] Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 26/02/2010 12:14:31 Originally by: Nika Dekaia So player A lost a nightmare, player B lost a paladin. Faction and T2. Which one is unique? It's about CCP having a clear stance. Who is to determine what is to be reimbursed and what not? It just can't work that way. CCP just can't put up the manpower to track it all down and can not be held to be responsible to justify why A was reimbursed and B not. Can you imagine what would happen on the forums and in the petition queue because many players would (more or less rightfull) claim to be treated bad by CCP compared to others? So why even say that items will be reimbursed, at all, in any situtaion. This sounds like one of the situations where items would be replaced if they are still in their original condition. As said in my last post, destroyed items will not be returned. T1 and T2 modules should not be returned (too much tracking for too many items). But faction items, researched BP's, faction ships, CCP sanctioned rare items (gifts, tournament rewards), as long as they are whole and tracked legitimately, should be returned according to the EULA. If you do not think that CCP has to honor a EULA then fine, say that. Just stop dancing around, I never said that all items should be returned, I said that trackable items should be returned, as quoted by the EULA. If CCP does not want to take the time then they should say so. EDIT: This has nothing to do with the regular player base. Unless a player was hacked the general population should have no issue to petition or cry about anything. Slade Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat! ≡v≡
Boomershoot Caldari Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2010.02.26 12:13:00 - [66] TL;DR -> OP got hacked because he doesn't care about his protection.
Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 12:24:00 - [67] Originally by: Rodj Blake Here's another anti-hacking tip: Do not have a character name that's the same as (or even similar to) your user name. If the hacker doesn't have your user name, brute force attacks become a lot harder. i got a pro tip for u too... reading before posting will help solve so many dissease, its unbelievable!
Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2010.02.26 12:27:00 - [68] Edited by: Nika Dekaia on 26/02/2010 12:36:17 Originally by: Slade Trillgon Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 26/02/2010 12:14:31 Originally by: Nika Dekaia So player A lost a nightmare, player B lost a paladin. Faction and T2. Which one is unique? It's about CCP having a clear stance. Who is to determine what is to be reimbursed and what not? It just can't work that way. CCP just can't put up the manpower to track it all down and can not be held to be responsible to justify why A was reimbursed and B not. Can you imagine what would happen on the forums and in the petition queue because many players would (more or less rightfull) claim to be treated bad by CCP compared to others? So why even say that items will be reimbursed, at all, in any situtaion. Yes, CCP could ad "If feasible" to that part of the EULA. But anyone reading it should apply some common sense and would come to the same conclusuion. It just can't work that way for reasons I stated before. Too much work just because someone else screwed up and too vague of a rule for reimbursement to not stirr up ** because everyone feels to be treated bad compared to others. Edit: There has to be ONE way to handle it. CCP sticks to it, as sad as it ma be for some of us. Edit 2: Originally by:** Slade Trillgon I said that trackable items should be returned, as quoted by the EULA. If CCP does not want to take the time then they should say so. Since this is a game, EVERY item, transaction, game action etc. IS TRACKABLE. That is not the problem. It is just too much work to do so for all those guys getting hacked. Sad but true.
Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 12:40:00 - [69] Originally by: Nika Dekaia It is just too much work to do so for all those guys getting hacked. Sad but true. according to this 1 funny guy, there is no hacking in mmos xD but yes, the terms of condition are way to missleading, and who followed the post till here knows already why i am posting here.. its cos of that and as u said, every item in eve is trackable, so in common sense, every item has to be reimbursed. and thats simply not true.
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.02.26 12:49:00 - [70] Originally by: Nika Dekaia Too much work just because someone else screwed up and too vague of a rule for reimbursement to not stirr up ** because everyone feels to be treated bad compared to others. Edit: There has to be ONE way to handle it. CCP sticks to it, as sad as it ma be for some of us. Edit 2: Originally by:** Slade Trillgon I said that trackable items should be returned, as quoted by the EULA. If CCP does not want to take the time then they should say so. Since this is a game, EVERY item, transaction, game action etc. IS TRACKABLE. That is not the problem. It is just too much work to do so for all those guys getting hacked. Sad but true. So legitamte losses to hackers is rapant in the EVE community? Slade Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat! ≡v≡
Kestrix	Posted - 2010.02.26 12:51:00 - [71] Seems to me, the thing to do from now on is to keep only the assets you need to use and nothing more. As it seems CCP's policy is to rememburse only what your assets were sold for and not their true value. I'll be busy tonight selling off everything I don't need to limit my losses should a key logger find it's way onto my PC. Kestrix
Boomershoot Caldari Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2010.02.26 12:55:00 - [72] Edited by: Boomershoot on 26/02/2010 12:55:58 Originally by: Aschera Nintu Originally by: Nika Dekaia It is just too much work to do so for all those guys getting hacked. Sad but true. according to this 1 funny guy, there is no hacking in mmos xD but yes, the terms of condition are way to missleading, and who followed the post till here knows already why i am posting here.. its cos of that and as u said, every item in eve is trackable, so in common sense, every item has to be reimbursed. and thats simply not true. No, Not all Items in eve are absolute-trackable. You can track transactions, you can track contracts, you can track ships But no, you can't track every single item in the game. EDIT: Here's the tracking parrot. He'll show you how to track.
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar Meltdown Luftfahrttechnik	Posted - 2010.02.26 13:01:00 - [73] Originally by: Kestrix As it seems CCP's policy is to rememburse only what your assets were sold for and not their true value. Pretty much this. The amount you get reimbursed has exactly nothing to due with the fact that you got hacked or how much your stuff was actually worth, only how good the hacker was at what he does. If the culprit was clueless and sold dreads for 2m ISK per unit, refined stuff at 50% efficiency and sold the tritanium for 0.20 isk etc, all the help you get from CCP is a piece of wood to bite on (after they went around and collected all the lube). EVE desperately needs authentication tokens. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.02.26 13:11:00 - [74] Originally by: El'essar Viocragh Originally by: Kestrix As it seems CCP's policy is to rememburse only what your assets were sold for and not their true value. Pretty much this. The amount you get reimbursed has exactly nothing to due with the fact that you got hacked or how much your stuff was actually worth, only how good the hacker was at what he does. If the culprit was clueless and sold dreads for 2m ISK per unit, refined stuff at 50% efficiency and sold the tritanium for 0.20 isk etc, all the help you get from CCP is a piece of wood to bite on (after they went around and collected all the lube). EVE desperately needs authentication tokens. That is perfectly legitimate in my mind, but I think that is how it should be stated then. Ofuscation like this is not necessary. Slade Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat! ≡v≡
destinationunreachable Hello Kitty Fanclub	Posted - 2010.02.26 13:21:00 - [75] Originally by: Boomershoot Edited by: Boomershoot on 26/02/2010 12:55:58 No, Not all Items in eve are absolute-trackable. You can track transactions, you can track contracts, you can track ships But no, you can't track every single item in the game. dude, it means, you (uhm, CCP) can't track each single piece of the millions of tritanium I have in my hangar ??
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar Meltdown Luftfahrttechnik	Posted - 2010.02.26 13:22:00 - [76] Edited by: El''essar Viocragh on 26/02/2010 13:23:31 Originally by: Slade Trillgon That is perfectly legitimate in my mind, but I think that is how it should be stated then. Indeed. The EULA and reality are on different planes of existence here, and so one of them should be updated. And maybe some NPC corps could start offering "safe deposit boxes" on their stations (an additional hangar one has to rent, password protected and in which all items can be locked similar to blueprints in corp hangars (maybe with wallet)). -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim
Aschera Nintu	Posted - 2010.02.26 13:29:00 - [77] Originally by: Kestrix Seems to me, the thing to do from now on is to keep only the assets you need to use and nothing more. As it seems CCP's policy is to rememburse only what your assets were sold for and not their true value. I'll be busy tonight selling off everything I don't need to limit my losses should a key logger find it's way onto my PC. Kestrix indeed, u got my message right. this is my tip for every1, and if i can safe just a few players from beeing screwed, posting my story here, was a success in my eyes
Arvano	Posted - 2010.02.26 13:57:00 - [78] But from what you say, if you're not leaving anything out, then you got hacked by a proffessional who can hack your account even if you don't visit any shady websites, download anything from shady websites, or give out your password. Nothing can help anybody, if that is truly the case.
Serpents smile	Posted - 2010.02.26 13:59:00 - [79] Edited by: Serpents smile on 26/02/2010 14:00:02 Edit added the quote, i forgot to add. Quote: i think i have a good solution now.. some1 in an other board said that i should sell all my chars instead fo deleting them, buy plexes with the money and donate them all to haiti. this way i can make sure all this sh*t still had a good outcome... I would wait a bit before taking such dramatic steps. Even though its terribly XXX$$%^&!!!XX what happened to you, you should step back and figure out if it are those pixels you got hacked out of that made you play this game, or if it was largely the rest around it. Six years of commitment is not nothing. You'll probably will not find any replacement game out there, and most likely wanting to come back at some point in time, be it next month or several years in the future. If you do, you'll regret that you gave/ sold, what you had left. Anyway, good luck, fly safe. o/
Arec Bardwin	Posted - 2010.02.26 14:04:00 - [80] Originally by: El'essar Viocragh EVE desperately needs authentication tokens. I would definitely buy one for my main assets account.
Mashie Saldana Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.26 14:16:00 - [81] Well it seems the only "safe" way to keep your in game wealth is to have it as liquid ISK and not in items. Another option if you are an item collector: Have a two man corp and use password protected station vaults and an unsubbed CEO. Set yourself with limited hangar access (take from container but not move container). Automate all bill payments and put enough isk in the corp wallet to keep it going for whatever timeperiod you need.
Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2010.02.26 15:17:00 - [82] Originally by: Slade Trillgon So legitamte losses to hackers is rapant in the EVE community? Slade As rampant as in other mmos. Protect you account and you will be 99% safe. The last 1% is unfortunate but nothing that could be done without massive manpower or CCP exposing itself to a whole lot of whinage. Originally by: Boomershoot But no, you can't track every single item in the game. Unless you hack your client / CCPs server, CCP can track anything what happens ingame (CCP will log anything important). Originally by: Kestrix Seems to me, the thing to do from now on is to keep only the assets you need to use and nothing more. As it seems CCP's policy is to rememburse only what your assets were sold for and not their true value. I'll be busy tonight selling off everything I don't need to limit my losses should a key logger find it's way onto my PC. Kestrix Yes. That is and has always been CCPs policy on hacked accounts. Having only ISK on your account will get them reimbursed when transferred to other chars, mods/ships sold to the market not.
SlayerOfArgus Gallente The Industrial Federation	Posted - 2010.02.26 15:33:00 - [83] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Originally by: SlayerOfArgus I wish CCP would let you put assembled ships into containers. I'm sure that most people have rigs on their ships that they wouldn't destroy just to put into a container. But if we had the ability to put all our items into containers and create secure passwords for them then our accounts would be that much safer, because then our wallets only would be the things that were at risk. Which that would still suck but it would be a lot less worse than having practically every single item taken away. you know you can right click -> recover password on a can right? and there is almost always a vulnerability somewhere. Yes I realized that a little while after I posted. I completely forgot about it. Oh well, and yes I'm sure that there would always be a way to get past it. They'd find a way.
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.02.26 15:50:00 - [84] Originally by: El'essar Viocragh Indeed. The EULA and reality are on different planes of existence here, and so one of them should be updated. And maybe some NPC corps could start offering "safe deposit boxes" on their stations (an additional hangar one has to rent, password protected and in which all items can be locked similar to blueprints in corp hangars (maybe with wallet)). I am not familiar with how corporate hangers work from a directors view point, but that sounds like a pretty good idea. That being said, I have no idea if all that is just a simple and additional barrier for a hacker to get through. Therefore, it becoming a waste of development resources for something that does not occur with massive frequency. Slade Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat! ≡v≡
Valrandir Gallente Elemental Mercury Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.26 16:05:00 - [85] Originally by: Destination SkillQueue 3 - Duping items isn't kool. It wouldn't matter in a single case, but as a policy it would create a huge isk/item faucet to the game, that would again punish all players. It would also be used to fake incidents in an effort to dupe assets. The no dupin policy assures there is no point in trying such scams. Again it is best to limit the damage done and limit it to the persons who failed to live up to their responsibilities. That would be you, the 'hacker' and possible alt accounts. This is why. This has surpassed the Yarrdware specification and has been dubbed Uberware.
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.02.26 17:40:00 - [86] Fact 1 - At bare minimum your password is entered/located in 2 places, you have it and CCP has it. Fact 2 - 50% of the vulnerability is taking 100% of the blame. Fact 3 - Over two years ago the ENTIRE source code for Eve was leaked into a torrent. CCP's solution to this problem was to block the IP address of anyone who downloaded it. Fact 4 - "My account was hacked" threads are almost becoming as common as ninja salvage complaint threads.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.26 18:02:00 - [87] Originally by: Sig Sour Fact 1 - At bare minimum your password is entered/located in 2 places, you have it and CCP has it. Are you quite sure about this fact? It sounds rather unlikely and is poor practice. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Amanda V	Posted - 2010.02.26 18:08:00 - [88] Edited by: Amanda V on 26/02/2010 18:08:18 ooops wrong thread....
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.02.26 18:11:00 - [89] Originally by: Tippia Are you quite sure about this fact? It sounds rather unlikely and is poor practice. You a goon?
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.26 18:15:00 - [90] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Tippia Are you quite sure about this fact? It sounds rather unlikely and is poor practice. You a goon? Yes. My alliance tag should tell you as much. So, about that "fact" of yours… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
N Ano Caldari Zerg Corp	Posted - 2010.02.26 18:18:00 - [91] This is by no means CCP's fault. It's not your fault either. CCP did what they could and like many stated can't do certain things that would break the game to a certain extent. So don't bother blaming CCP for this because its just plain stupid. 18:19:51 Combat Corpus Prophet misses you completely.
JitaSchnitte	Posted - 2010.02.26 18:25:00 - [92] Edited by: JitaSchnitte on 26/02/2010 18:30:24 Originally by: Tippia leaked sourcecode 5 min. search in google and u will see CCP's security. I dont want to post it here because of the banstick. Btw. shortly after that CCP Kieron left without saying "goodbye". I dont know if that has anything to do with it tho.
Mashie Saldana Red Federation	Posted - 2010.02.26 18:31:00 - [93] It wasn't the source code that was leaked, someone just decompiled the Python bit of the client.
FarosWarrior Amarr Sonnema	Posted - 2010.02.26 18:34:00 - [94] Originally by: Aschera Nintu Originally by: Trustworthy Joe Originally by: Aschera Nintu Stuff CCP cant just take money back from the market, it would ruin the balance in this game. sure, i understand that. and its not the point. the point is, that everything i earned in playing hardcore for 4 years is now gone, then u get 10 bil isk, wich is nothing in eve, and wish u good luck on recoverying ur loss. this is a slap into the face of the customer. this is not an emoranger i quit eve thread cos i lost a mission raven due to worlds collide. i couldnt care less if i get stupid replys or flames, as im already out. and if i can warn some people on what can happen to them and what theire assets are really woth, im glad as this is definitely the last thing i do in eve. greetings just get out already, I'm a carebear but my wallet almost never reaches the 10 digits, and when it does I normally have to deduct 300m for my alt's plex so give the 10b to me if its change for you cheers, Faros "As long as we're jammed we might as well throw those 1400mm's at them" Charlie Fodder, Clear Skies
DJV's Lawyer	Posted - 2010.02.26 19:04:00 - [95] Edited by: DJV''s Lawyer on 26/02/2010 19:03:57 why is pancake not a good password i find it to be a good password not like everyone pass needs to be B56nl10oN754bhpkj&?%&?$(*(%
Duncan MacPherson Minmatar Clan MacPherson	Posted - 2010.02.26 19:30:00 - [96] Originally by: DJV's Lawyer Edited by: DJV''s Lawyer on 26/02/2010 19:03:57 why is pancake not a good password i find it to be a good password not like everyone pass needs to be *B56nl10oN754bhpkj&?%&?$((%** great now I have to change my password. Wait - That is a $ not an S. NM I am good
Serpents smile	Posted - 2010.02.26 19:46:00 - [97] Originally by: Tippia Yes. My alliance tag should tell you as much. Ugh... I always saw you as a 'neutral' person, in the bin with that malformed view. ;/
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.02.26 19:50:00 - [98] Originally by: Aschera Nintu Originally by: Trustworthy Joe Originally by: Aschera Nintu Stuff CCP cant just take money back from the market, it would ruin the balance in this game. sure, i understand that. and its not the point. the point is, that everything i earned in playing hardcore for 4 years is now gone, then u get 10 bil isk, wich is nothing in eve, and wish u good luck on recoverying ur loss. this is a slap into the face of the customer. Well **** you very much. I would wager 99.9% of EVE would not view 10 bil isk as "nothing."
Lucy Wing	Posted - 2010.02.26 19:59:00 - [99] Worst thing is those bastards saying "its your fault, get over it" and blablablah. If this would happen to you, you would all cry like babies.
ISellThingz	Posted - 2010.02.26 20:09:00 - [100] Originally by: Lucy Wing Worst thing is those bastards saying "its your fault, get over it" and blablablah. If this would happen to you, you would all cry like babies. Have to agree. Each and everyone of you "HTFU ****ers" would probably drown in a puddle of your own tears if this had happened to you.
Arvano	Posted - 2010.02.26 20:15:00 - [101] But it won't happen to anybody if you don't put your username or PW into any website except for the eveonline website. Or download anything from shady websites that aren't well known. Or give password or unsername to "trusted friends".
Gorki Andropov THIS IS GAME	Posted - 2010.02.26 20:16:00 - [102] Quote: short everything u expect in a well sortet hangar to be there after 4 years of play... Did they steal your dictionaries and style guides while they were at it? ----------------------------------------------- "I have not problem with prostitute, but the kiddy dools is to much for me" - Orcan
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.02.26 20:22:00 - [103] Originally by: Tippia So, about that "fact" of yoursà Are you serious? If you are not trolling, perhaps you are not reading correct?
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.26 20:40:00 - [104] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Tippia So, about that "fact" of yours… Are you serious? If you are not trolling, perhaps you are not reading correct? I'm dead serious. There is no reason whatsoever for CCP to have your password on record – it is, in fact, pretty bad security practice for them to do so. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.02.26 20:53:00 - [105] Originally by: Tippia I'm dead serious. There is no reason whatsoever for CCP to have your password on record û it is, in fact, pretty bad security practice for them to do so. heh. When you punch your password, it is not the password god determining that it is the correct password. It is the verification system built by CCP to determine if you entered the correct password. In order for them to know that the password you entered is correct, guess what... they know your password. (I never imagined I would have to explain that to someone)
Spurty Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.02.26 20:54:00 - [106] Reading this makes me want to self destruct all my ships. The levels of care such hamfisted practices use zap all care about the game Originally by: Hurley I WAS NOT QUITTING SoT AND WAS NOT THINKING ABOUT JOINING IT. PL/SoT MADE A MISTAKE AND ARE NOT MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT IT OR FIX IT.
Nambu Caldari Nova Prospekt Initiative	Posted - 2010.02.26 20:59:00 - [107] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Tippia I'm dead serious. There is no reason whatsoever for CCP to have your password on record û it is, in fact, pretty bad security practice for them to do so. heh. When you punch your password, it is not the password god determining that it is the correct password. It is the verification system built by CCP to determine if you entered the correct password. In order for them to know that the password you entered is correct, guess what... they know your password. (I never imagined I would have to explain that to someone) Yes, except anyone who knows anything about computer security, knows that a quality pasword system only stores 1-way hashes of passwords, and that your client hashes your entered password which is then compared to the hash in their password file. Noone compares plaintext passwords. --- im not paranoid, they really are trying to have my stuff.
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.02.26 21:34:00 - [108] Originally by: Nambu Yes, except anyone who knows anything about computer security, knows that a quality pasword system only stores 1-way hashes of passwords, and that your client hashes your entered password which is then compared to the hash in their password file. Noone compares plaintext passwords. Hashed or plain text, it doesn't matter if the server accepts the handshake.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.26 22:14:00 - [109] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Nambu Yes, except anyone who knows anything about computer security, knows that a quality pasword system only stores 1-way hashes of passwords, and that your client hashes your entered password which is then compared to the hash in their password file. Noone compares plaintext passwords. Hashed or plain text, it doesn't matter if the server accepts the handshake. …except that a proper hash means that, even if you know the answer, you don't know how to enter it. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Damion Stranek	Posted - 2010.02.26 22:28:00 - [110] Anyone who is saying that his account being hacked was obviously his fault are being incredibly naive. Just like in eve, you and your computer are never safe as long as you are on the internet. Every time you submit your password you are not guaranteed safety. Not only this, but your password is stored in some corporation's database, hopefully encrypted, but not guaranteed safe by any means. I am inclined to believe the OP, sometimes, **** just happens. Its a shame that he lost all of his assets, and I believe he should have been compensated more than the pittance he received. It would not be unreasonable to return his rarer items, or atleast give him a fair market value for some of his larger items. If nothing else CCP should be a little more flexible with a player who has been around for 6 years and has supported them for so long.
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.02.26 22:36:00 - [111] Originally by: Damion Stranek If nothing else CCP should be a little more flexible with a player who has been around for 6 years and has supported them for so long. lolwut? You do realize it would create an avalanche of cries, whines and threats to quit EVE?
Dante Marcellus Minmatar	Posted - 2010.02.26 23:16:00 - [112] I wouldn't quit. If I were you, I'd take a step back for a week or two, maybe let the frustration fully vent out of your system. Then, when you're ready -- format your PC, reinstall everything you had before with the latest updates, along with EVE. Change your EVE password and just do what the other guy said, only keep what you need. I know I'm new and all, but I don't think EVE needs to lose players :P
Vossejongk Caldari Bendebeukers Green Rhino	Posted - 2010.02.26 23:23:00 - [113] CCP, WHEN will we be able to get an authenticator or something similar to it, so hacking accounts will be 99.99999% IMPOSSIBLE. WHEN !? God knows how many times this has happened yet and still the most easyest way to prevent it isnt offered! Such a shame But then again I cant really approve of any of this because this is my signature
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.02.26 23:24:00 - [114] Originally by: Tippia àexcept that a proper hash means that, even if you know the answer, you don't know how to enter it. Visit Fact 3.
Mistah Ewedynao Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.26 23:31:00 - [115] Originally by: Arvano Or download anything from shady websites that aren't well known. So...the well known Shady websites are OK? Thanks for that informative tidbit. Overall, CCP's reaction and response to the rash of hackings has been underwhelming.
Joe Censored Unknown-Entity Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.26 23:35:00 - [116] If CCP were to dupe your items back then that is something that could easily be exploited. Sell tons of items in a station at uber discount where a friend of yours has the majority of the buy orders up, then CCP dupes them all back to you after you complain about being "hacked." Way way too easy to exploit that way. Next game you play maybe you won't keep all your items on your one account when you say you already run multiple accounts, and are more careful with your password. You say you were careful with that password of yours, but I seriously doubt your account was hacked using a brute force attack. Meaning it was your fault your account got hacked, and you should be happy CCP was willing to do anything for you at all.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.26 23:36:00 - [117] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Tippia …except that a proper hash means that, even if you know the answer, you don't know how to enter it. Visit Fact 3. …which isn't a fact either, and (if done correctly) won't help you anyway. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.02.26 23:41:00 - [118] Ok, you provided a strong argument and proved me wrong. Because of your strong argument: The source code was not leaked. There is no humanly possible way to hack in to someones account through methods other than key loggers. Thanks for keeping us safe.
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.02.27 00:35:00 - [119] Originally by: Joe Censored Edited by: Joe Censored on 26/02/2010 23:39:43 If CCP were to dupe your items back then that is something that could easily be exploited. Sell tons of items in a station at uber discount where a friend of yours has the majority of the buy orders up, then CCP dupes them all back to you after you complain about being "hacked." Way way too easy to exploit that way. So you are saying that CCP would not investigate the claim of a hacked account and would not be able to tell the difference Slade Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat! ≡v≡
Mr Epeen	Posted - 2010.02.27 04:43:00 - [120] Okay After careful reading I think I get it now. 1) Hack acct. 2) Sell all assets to alt for **** all 3) Repeat as often as possible 4) Profit Not sure if this is what CCP mean when when they bandy about their 'cold, harsh universe' mantra. And I really don't think that returning stolen goods is bad for the game. The way it is set up now the bad guys win. This is OK in game but not RL and hacking accts is definitely RL. Mr Epeen

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