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cynthia greythorne
Gallente
Twilight Labs
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Posted - 2010.02.28 02:28:00 -
[1]
Perhaps I have misunderstood the aggression timer these past two years. I allowed the timer to run out in a station (ate something and made a phone call to be sure that enough time had elapsed), and the yellow countdown timer warning in the upper left hand corner turned off. Thinking that I was safe, I left the station, jumped a gate to a different system--0.9 from 0.8--- and was targeted and attacked- the attacker was not "red" to me. I did not attack back (unarmed drone ship), but waited for CONCORD to do its work. But Concord did nothing, and my ship was exploded. It should be noted also that when I was attacked, the aggression timer came on set at 15 minutes.
So, what I am wondering, what happened here? The attacker says that it was not a bug according to BattleClinic- see for yourself. I don't mind the loss nearly as much as being freely attacked when there was no countdown timer on. Is there something I am not understanding?
Thank you. 
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Taross
Caldari
People with Guns
Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.02.28 03:05:00 -
[2]
Best I can think of is this is someone you killed earlier, and he had killrights on ya. If this is not the case, there's still a zillion things taht could've gone wrong and lead to this outcome, but I'll let someone more knowledgeable comment on those.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie |
Yarinor
Yarinors Trust Fund
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Posted - 2010.02.28 03:42:00 -
[3]
Also note that those timers can be a bit off at times.
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Solomar Espersei
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2010.02.28 16:46:00 -
[4]
The most logical explanation is that he had kill rights on you. Barring that, it's likely that he was somehow able to extend aggro on you and you ignored the warning window as you undocked (since the visible counter was gone at this point). I'm betting it was the latter.
all the best,
solomar |
SupaKudoRio
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Posted - 2010.02.28 17:36:00 -
[5]
You didn't really give enough information. How did you get aggression before? Were you fighting with them (anything aggressive; use of ewar, weapons, etc)?
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10/10: Where is your God now? |
Cynth Greythorne
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Posted - 2010.02.28 18:02:00 -
[6]
Well, I shot at a salvage thief, and then thought that it was a trap. So I jumped systems and docked, and waited for the aggression timer to wind down and disappear. After that, I left the station, jumped, and was jammed and killed. It took about a minute to die, so Concord had plenty of time to come. I didn't release the drones because I thought Concord would handle the situation. The aggression counter reappeared and was set at 15 minutes.
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Sandeep
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Posted - 2010.02.28 18:53:00 -
[7]
He probably shot your cans or wrecks to extend aggro.
What is this time flux thing? |
Norei Sholna
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Posted - 2010.02.28 21:58:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Sandeep
He probably shot your cans or wrecks to extend aggro.
Why does it work like that? Sounds like a weird mechanic.
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ISD Noxmiztr
Caldari
ISD STAR
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Posted - 2010.03.01 01:18:00 -
[9]
Cynthia,
From what it sounds like initially is that your Aggression timer has 3 phases, CONCORD, Faction, and Player aggression, then the Player had either the kill rights or you were still considered "Aggressed" to him, giving him the right to fire back.
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Baka Lakadaka
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2010.03.01 01:49:00 -
[10]
It's probably worth checking your security status as well - if you shot someone, it might be that your sec status has dropped to outlaw status and you're a target for everyone.
Otherwise it's either kill rights or some sort of aggression that hasn't expired.
______________________
Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University. |
Cynth Greythorne
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Posted - 2010.03.01 12:16:00 -
[11]
Well, I'm still not sure that I understand, but at least there appears to be a possible reason for this to have occurred, and that, at least, is reassuring. (BTW< no security/standings hit.)
THank you all for your answers and time.
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Gartel Reiman
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2010.03.01 13:34:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Norei Sholna
Originally by: Sandeep
He probably shot your cans or wrecks to extend aggro.
Why does it work like that? Sounds like a weird mechanic.
It's just because of the way aggression works - it auto-extends when you're involved in combat (which makes sense, it'd be silly if you had to keep an eye on the timer while fighting in order to cease just before the 15 minutes was up).
So it's clear that the timer should refresh when a player fires at your ship. And then it's just a question of where you draw the line - if a player fires at your drones, this should definitely be extended, else you get into silly situations whereby either that player can get CONCORDed if trying to destroy drones you've sent after him on the 15-minute interval; or alternatively you have no recourse against him after popping your drones because of the timer elapsing.
And cans/wrecks are broadly the same. If you have an aggression timer against someone, and he's firing at your cans and wrecks, then it seems sensible that it should be extended so that you can get recourse against him.
It does initially seem like a weird mechanic if you look at it from the perspective of "I'm going to hide in this station until the aggression has gone away". But from the purpose of keeping the engagement open until no further aggressive actions are taken, it makes perfect sense.
If you're in the former category - i.e. you don't want to get into a fight - then simply don't engage in the first place. Once you start a two-way fight, you may find it's harder to get out of than you thought (it typically involves both players deciding to give up, not just you)!
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cynthia greythorne
Gallente
Twilight Labs
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Posted - 2010.03.01 14:26:00 -
[13]
"Once you start a two-way fight, you may find it's harder to get out of than you thought"
Yes, certainly, but wouldn't you agree that it would be good to actually know when you can be attacked? If there is no visible aggression timer, how are we to know when we can no longer be aggressed without Concord intervening?
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Rotundone
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.03.01 14:30:00 -
[14]
If there was still an aggression timer active, shouldn't there have been some sort of visual indicator? Such as the yellow countdown added time; warning during undock; flashy red when encountering the hostile?
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Swidgen
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Posted - 2010.03.03 20:43:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Rotundone
If there was still an aggression timer active, shouldn't there have been some sort of visual indicator? Such as the yellow countdown added time; warning during undock; flashy red when encountering the hostile?
That does seem to be a questionable game mechanic, that someone can retain/extend the right to shoot at you without you knowing about it.
Furthermore, if you read some of the professional ninja/griefer blogs (like this one), it seems as though the extended agression timer does not give your corp mates shooting rights, only the pilot who was originally agressed.
This is buggered to hell and back. But, hey, we'll be able to play SimEarth and Facebook in the next expansion, so who cares about life-and-death game mechanics, eh? |
Taross
Caldari
People with Guns
Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.03.03 21:38:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Swidgen
Originally by: Rotundone
If there was still an aggression timer active, shouldn't there have been some sort of visual indicator? Such as the yellow countdown added time; warning during undock; flashy red when encountering the hostile?
That does seem to be a questionable game mechanic, that someone can retain/extend the right to shoot at you without you knowing about it.
Furthermore, if you read some of the professional ninja/griefer blogs (like this one), it seems as though the extended agression timer does not give your corp mates shooting rights, only the pilot who was originally agressed.
This is buggered to hell and back. But, hey, we'll be able to play SimEarth and Facebook in the next expansion, so who cares about life-and-death game mechanics, eh?
Well, to screw you over in the more complicated ways, people have to learn exactly how the mechanics work. To be safe from the BEST "griefers" in the game, and to get one over on their less-talented brethern, learn the mechanics yourself.... If you're a miner, make sure to read every canflipping guide you can get your hands on. If you mission, read up on ninjasalvaging. If you fly haulers, learn about suicide ganking. Even if you plan to NEVER get on the wrong side of the law/"ethical divide," learn how they operate and how they think. THEY sure as hell are doing so about you...
Alternately, just cross over to the Dark Side... We have more fun... And cookies, too...
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie |
Swidgen
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Posted - 2010.03.03 22:04:00 -
[17]
All good points, Taross. All too often, however, the guides get it wrong, are incomplete or out of date. CCP's own info on so many things is often incomplete, too.
For what it's worth, the more I play the more it does seem that the evildoers have more fun. |
Taross
Caldari
People with Guns
Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.03.03 22:24:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Swidgen
All good points, Taross. All too often, however, the guides get it wrong, are incomplete or out of date. CCP's own info on so many things is often incomplete, too.
For what it's worth, the more I play the more it does seem that the evildoers have more fun.
True on the guides often being incomplete... But they're still BETTER than CCP's official documentation, such as it is... But NEVER completely trust a guide on the forums. I mean, these guides are written by the evildoers themselves... Would they REALLY reveal all their best tricks, or even pass up the opportunity to mess with your mind a little bit?
Also true about the Dark Side having more fun...
What I do whenever I'm not sure about a mechanic is get together with a friend, or a friend's alt, and just try it out... Lot of stuff you can try with no loss at all, and the rest will just cost you a minimal amount of sec status, and/or a cheap frig. Nothing like figuring it out for yourself... Sense of acomplishment is worth something, plus, well, who else can you trust in this game?
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie |
Theodore Calvin
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.03.04 11:54:00 -
[19]
Fight in 0.0 its so much safer 
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Cynth Greythorne
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Posted - 2010.03.09 00:10:00 -
[20]
Well, I finally received a response to my petition, and it is obvious that no one could be bothered to actually read it.
Hi,
You stole from your attacker's jet can and he could rightfully attack you at that time.
Please let us know if you require any further assistance. If not we shall close the petition.
With kind regards,
GM XXXXXXXXXX
The EVE Online Customer Support Team
CCP Games
A) Jet cans??!!?? What jet cans?? There were no jet cans involved. I was on a mission and someone stole from me.
B) The aggression timer had run down, I waited some extra time, and the pilot who exploded my ship was not flashing red.
I imagine that I will never receive a response that explains what happened.
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.03.09 01:20:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Zartrader on 09/03/2010 01:22:30
Players sometimes eject a can in a mission area hoping the mission runner will mistake it for theirs and loot it. That's what CCP sees in their logs. Or he had killed an NPC and you looted it. As to the timer it refreshes as you have an encounter but the timer may not have properly updated (as explained earlier) As said he may have had kill rights on you (no flashing red until he attacks you)
You have missed the crucial bit about how the timer was started and when you last finished the engagement and what happened to your opponent so its all a guess. In any event there are several ways CCP would be correct although the new timer may well be bugged.
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Mal Lokrano
Gallente
Retribution Corp.
Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.03.09 02:48:00 -
[22]
From what I hear there are two glitches in the mechanic: one makes you go GCC but not cause CONCORD to come allowing anyone to shoot you another is when they shoot a wreck or can (like mentioned above) and it extends the aggro timer for another 15 minutes. These might or might not still be valid, but if they are, if you shoot at a ninja make sure you stay in dock for 30 minutes then.
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When going to a party with wine, women, and song. Always ascertain the vintage of the first two. |
The AEther
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2010.03.09 04:21:00 -
[23]
Edited by: The AEther on 09/03/2010 04:22:25
Also, be aware that the yellow aggro timer starts when the first aggressive action takes place. But with each subsequent aggressive action it gets refreshed on the server but does not refresh on your screen. Thus if your fight lasted 2 minutes you aggro timer will actually be 17 minutes since you first engaged another person but on your screen it will start and finish counting down only 15 minutes.
Agony Unleashed - no blues 0.0 pvp, pvp classes |
Movarer
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Posted - 2010.03.09 09:54:00 -
[24]
The timers are not definite either, they seem to refresh very strangely at times..
I got popped in lowsec at a gate after shooting some non-flashy, thus I got both red timer, gategun timer (Republic fleet) and the personal timer to the guy I shot at. However since I was now in my pod I hopped back into highsec and docked up waiting a good while, then once all timers had dissapeared, this is easy 20min later, I grabbed another ship and undocked, to find rep fleet jumping me everywhere and me not getting a new timer, they just didnt let me go so I had to jump to lowsec..
I stayed in a safespot in lowsec for 17minutes since I entered it "just to be sure" and then jumped back into highsec, mind you I had no timer _at all_, no yellow, no red, during any point since I undocked in highsec and they started shooting me. And when I jumped back into highsec after 17 minutes since last gategun shot me, they came back and chased me around again.. So I redid it, jumped back to lowsec and waited another 17 minutes and this time before heading into highsec I relogged the client and all was well.
So it seems that they can get "stuck" those pesky timers, or atleast show wrong info since all my timers got refreshed but not showing..
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Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.03.09 11:35:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Durzel on 09/03/2010 11:37:51
Originally by: Sandeep
He probably shot your cans or wrecks to extend aggro.
This.
He shot one of your wrecks/cans near the end of the initial 15 minute timer expiry which extends the timer his side, but not to yours. So he still had however many minutes to attack, but as far as you were concerned the timer had run out.
It's one of many quirks that really should be fixed.
edit: Also for future reference don't fit Corpum A-type mods to a Dominix, it's dumb.
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Cynth Greythorne
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Posted - 2010.03.09 11:44:00 -
[26]
Well, thank you all. At least I have an understanding of what happened. Still seems a bit odd, though, but I'll learn to live with it.
As for those Corpus A-types, I have absolutely no interest in ever fitting them to anything ever again, especially since I can never know when I am fair prey or not.
Again, thank you all.
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Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.03.09 11:48:00 -
[27]
You could try petitioning mentioning the wreck shooting, it intuitively seems like a bug to me (since it only extends the timer visibly for one party), you might get lucky.
To be honest though you were on shaky ground the moment you decided to shoot back, aggression timer oddities or not.
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Dian'h Might
Minmatar
Cash and Cargo Liberators Incorporated
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Posted - 2010.03.10 17:37:00 -
[28]
Just pointing this out because I didnt' see anyone else mention it:
Hidden aggression timers have always been a problem in eve, and it doesn't just effect mission runners. Several times now when waiting out a GCC or faction navy timer I've waited until well after it expired (5 minutes+) and still was attacked by concord/faction navy upon undocking.
@the op: What you should take away from this is that if you're going to shoot someone, you should be committed to it, and the repercussions of it that will happen well into the future. Most actions with other players in eve can have consequences that take a lot more to get away from than simply hiding in a station for 15 minutes.
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