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Xtover
Suicide Kings
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Posted - 2010.03.04 18:11:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Lendwill Xtover: You misunderstood me. One pilot is needed to fly the Widow, the other is needed to drop the cyno. That means two of your stealth pilots are tied up with the bridge instead of flying goods in. That isn't my issue. My issue is the fuel cost for jumping each blockade runner in, then jumping it back.
I know how to jump, this character is a cyno alt.
The cost isn't super high, you need to increase your profit margin, or get your own fuel.. honestly isotopes and ozone do not cost all that much.
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Millsy1
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Posted - 2010.03.04 19:44:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Millsy1 on 04/03/2010 19:45:02 I just made a route to get a viator from where I live, to lowsec.
The isotope cost for titans to bridge it (just the bridge, assume they don't jump) is 302 isotopes.
To get a single viator through to the same system with my panther (also assume bridge only), would be just over 18000 isotopes.
That is a -damn- site more expensive (not to mention impossible for the ship to hold)
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Sunset Rogue
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Posted - 2010.03.04 21:08:00 -
[33]
- T2 resists
- Remove scanres penalty and readjust base scanres as necessary
- Double fuelbay capacity
- Double jump range
- Add small ship maintenance bay (enough to carry 2-3 spare covops/bombers)
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Xtover
Suicide Kings
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Posted - 2010.03.05 14:43:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Millsy1 Edited by: Millsy1 on 04/03/2010 19:45:02 I just made a route to get a viator from where I live, to lowsec.
The isotope cost for titans to bridge it (just the bridge, assume they don't jump) is 302 isotopes.
To get a single viator through to the same system with my panther (also assume bridge only), would be just over 18000 isotopes.
That is a -damn- site more expensive (not to mention impossible for the ship to hold)
There's something wrong, it doesn't even cost 18k isotopes to jump my carrier 12ly..
I've never done a covert bridge, but if that's the case it should be looked at.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2010.03.05 16:27:00 -
[35]
i think they do enough dps as they do now thanks, gankish redeemer doing 1k dps is plenty!
The locking penelty is completely ******ed and definitly needs to go. I do not think covops is a good idea however, upto 1k dps or very strong ecm should not be able to move around like a recon (on the ecm side the falcon does this already and is arguable overpowered)
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Javelin6
Dirt Nap Squad
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Posted - 2010.03.06 04:28:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Dr Fighter i think they do enough dps as they do now thanks, gankish redeemer doing 1k dps is plenty!
The locking penelty is completely ******ed and definitly needs to go. I do not think covops is a good idea however, upto 1k dps or very strong ecm should not be able to move around like a recon (on the ecm side the falcon does this already and is arguable overpowered)
Agreed. Large roving gangs of cloaked warping battleships that can jump a constellation into cyno jammed systems would be very bad for game balance.
Fun, yes. But bad for the game. ____________________________________________
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Slade Hoo
Amarr Corpse Collection Point
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Posted - 2010.03.06 05:23:00 -
[37]
If CCP says "soon" it'll be the same as with ambulation, 5th subsystems, 4th AF-Bonus, etc.
I don't think cov ops cloaking is necessary. A bit more range for jump portal and jump drive and black ops will be fine. ------ Make Lowsec useful! Vote in the CSM-Forum! |
Lone Provider
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Posted - 2010.03.06 21:31:00 -
[38]
So if I understand correctly, a Black Ops can jump force recon ships, covert ops ships, stealth bombers,
transport ships and T3 strategic cruisers?
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RavenPaine
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Posted - 2010.03.06 22:29:00 -
[39]
The whole system of, drop a cyno , create a portal , jump the cov-ops fleet . Rinse and repeat . Is just a lot of work.
If the Black Ops could eliminate that first part , and have a cov ops cloak of its own .
It would be used much more if its portal WAS the cyno for the rest of fleet , without the first cyno ship. (maybe too dangerous? or unbalanced?)
Longer range . More fuel bay , Covert Ops Cloak
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Javelin6
Dirt Nap Squad
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Posted - 2010.03.07 22:34:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Lone Provider So if I understand correctly, a Black Ops can jump force recon ships, covert ops ships, stealth bombers,
transport ships and T3 strategic cruisers?
In a word: Yes.
T3's fitted with the Covert Config Sub and Blockade Runner transports.
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EdTeach
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Posted - 2010.03.10 00:08:00 -
[41]
Edited by: EdTeach on 10/03/2010 00:13:32 Edited by: EdTeach on 10/03/2010 00:10:10 While I strongly support the addition of the Covert Ops Cloak and lovin' up the Jump Range and/or fuel requirements, I think care should be taken whith any other additions. One has to take into account the ways in which things combine into the whole, rather than a collection of discrete abilities.
What also needs to be taken into account is CCP's original vision for this ship class. The Black Ops is arguably a support ship more than a combat ship.
From what I have read, it seems that Jump Range and Covert Ops Cloak are the two largest issues that have a majority agreement.
OK, put those two things on the ship. Stop. Think about the increased survivability and utility right there. Want to make it even more survivable without resists? How about the same +2 Warp Strength that transport ships get?
Adding DPS or tank along with Covert Ops Cloak could make exponential changes to the "uber factor" and what role the ship is used for... which could lead to nerfs later. I think it should not be used as a PvP ship any more than a Basilisk should be. Sure, it has weapons and a tank, but those should be there for defensive purposes more than aggressive. It has a very well-described job to do... all we want is for the ship to be able to do that job well.
I whole-heartedly suppport the idea of two seperate versions of the same hull. If it can be done well, it would be a wonderful addition.
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Kara Sharalien
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Posted - 2010.03.10 00:14:00 -
[42]
Originally by: EdTeach
From what I have read, it seems that Jump Range and Covert Ops Cloak are the two largest issues that have a majority agreement.
That really is the key. Currently, black ops cost almost as much as a carrier and much more then a force recon, but have a shorter jump range and less DPS then the former and none of the cloaky advantages of the latter.
IMO, the black ops currently does not have a purpose.
It either needs a really long jump range (like base of 6-8ly) for epic long range incursions or it needs a covert ops cloak for devastating strikes, but not both, that would be OP. In both cases it also needs about a 10-20% reduction in price as well.
TBH with the new sov structure, I think a longer jump range would open up interesting tactical options for harassment.
Originally by: Thuul'Khalat WHY YOU VIOLENCE MY BOAT?!
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Javelin6
Dirt Nap Squad
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Posted - 2010.03.10 04:55:00 -
[43]
I'm still not convinced that the class needs the Covert Ops Cloak.
In a vacuum such as a single ship or two, balance wise it is not overpowered. However put that capability in large roving gangs typical in nullsec where 20+ BS is not uncommon, then it becomes a huge problem.
Blob warfare is difficult enough without having to escalate numbers to counter. And now factor in that a battleship gang can warped cloaked and a whole new "can o worms" has just been opened that hasn't looked at.
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.03.10 05:05:00 -
[44]
perhaps a cost reduction of 20% or 2 classes a cheaper short range and a more expensive long range perhaps with 10% better stats across the board ( or even a pirate black ops version)
Need more factional ships and pirates are the masters of black ops infiltration etc Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
Cameron Freerunner
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Posted - 2010.03.10 17:05:00 -
[45]
I like the 2 versions of the hull idea. If there were 2 hulls, one could be a ninja bridge, with more efficient fuel use, longer jump range, more space in the hold(s), and maybe better speed/agility or a longer cyno duration or some other small tweak related to its support role. Its combat abilities would be nerfed in some manner, making it basically capable of holding its own long enough to make a getaway but not enough to make it part of the gank crew.
The other could be a true covert BS with a cov ops cloak, better armor/resists, better at fitting true gank/tank, but with its jump capabilities nerfed (maybe limit the jump range, limit the m3 that can be jumped, or something similar).
I would also like to see the BO have a slightly wider jump bridge radius, maybe to 5k, so that the SB fleet doesn't have to sit on top of the BO ship with the cov jump bridge.
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EdTeach
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Posted - 2010.03.12 21:57:00 -
[46]
Edited by: EdTeach on 12/03/2010 21:58:43
Originally by: Javelin6 I'm still not convinced that the class needs the Covert Ops Cloak.
In a vacuum such as a single ship or two, balance wise it is not overpowered. However put that capability in large roving gangs typical in nullsec where 20+ BS is not uncommon, then it becomes a huge problem.
Blob warfare is difficult enough without having to escalate numbers to counter. And now factor in that a battleship gang can warped cloaked and a whole new "can o worms" has just been opened that hasn't looked at.
I agree completely, which is why I want them to stay weak in the resists and DPS areas. If it stays expensive, but can do the one job it is meant to do safely, then I doubt one would see roaming fleets of Black Ops. Even spidered it would be a huge isk risk.
Cloak and Jump range is all it needs.
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rubico1337
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.03.13 10:53:00 -
[47]
Edited by: rubico1337 on 13/03/2010 10:53:21
Originally by: Javelin6 I'm still not convinced that the class needs the Covert Ops Cloak.
In a vacuum such as a single ship or two, balance wise it is not overpowered. However put that capability in large roving gangs typical in nullsec where 20+ frigates is not uncommon, then it becomes a huge problem.
Blob warfare is difficult enough without having to escalate numbers to counter. And now factor in that a stealth bomber gang can warped cloaked and a whole new "can o worms" has just been opened that hasn't looked at.
ftfy
same argument was made before the stalthbomber change. no game breaking changes came of it. and frigs with 500 dps and great agility benefit more from covops cloak than BSes Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. |
Javelin6
Dirt Nap Squad
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Posted - 2010.03.14 00:20:00 -
[48]
Originally by: rubico1337 Edited by: rubico1337 on 13/03/2010 10:53:21
Originally by: Javelin6 I'm still not convinced that the class needs the Covert Ops Cloak.
In a vacuum such as a single ship or two, balance wise it is not overpowered. However put that capability in large roving gangs typical in nullsec where 20+ frigates is not uncommon, then it becomes a huge problem.
Blob warfare is difficult enough without having to escalate numbers to counter. And now factor in that a stealth bomber gang can warped cloaked and a whole new "can o worms" has just been opened that hasn't looked at.
ftfy
same argument was made before the stalthbomber change. no game breaking changes came of it. and frigs with 500 dps and great agility benefit more from covops cloak than BSes
Both gang types are prevalent in nullsec and Stealth bombers are balanced by being fragile. A Battleship (even one with tier 1 stats) can hardly be called "Glass Cannons"
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galphi
Gallente Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
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Posted - 2010.03.14 01:20:00 -
[49]
They either need more capabilities for their price, or less cost for their capabilities. I think a compromise of the two is in order:
* Remove the targeting penalty for fitting the cloak. * Increase their faction resistance bonuses a bit (but not on the order of a HaC, something in-between). * Halve the price to construct them.
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0oO0oOoOo0o
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Posted - 2010.03.14 02:15:00 -
[50]
Edited by: 0oO0oOoOo0o on 14/03/2010 02:15:17 Give this ship the option to jump into other systems without a 2nd char, by starmap navigation (landing somewhere randomly in the target system) instead of using cynos.
This will instantly make these ships go from FAIL -to-> WIN
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Fridge Chesthair
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Posted - 2010.03.14 02:49:00 -
[51]
I think Black Ops are just now being used as intended. I am a always puzzled about the speed increase while cloaked when the remaining penalties from the cloak remain.
Scrum based User Story for ccp::
1 - As a player, I would like to move strategic groups covertly (Cov jump portal)
2 - As a player, I would like to provide the group with uniquely valuable information (ship/cargo scanning while cloaked or some other information warefare capability + cov ops cloak)
3 - As a player, I don't want offensively powerful, defensively tough ships opperating casually in hostile territory. (No sky-high resists or double-dmg bonuses + cov ops cloak.)
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Cassidy Solo
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Posted - 2010.03.14 03:08:00 -
[52]
I would like to see the Cyno-system re-worked, at least for Black-Ops (Keep it the same for the capital fleets, I don't care.) Allow them to jump without having a second account open a Cyno.
Give two types of Black Ops, one that can use a Covert Ops Cloak, but isn't really good damage, and one that can't fit the Covert Ops Cloak (But doesn't have a Scan Resolution penalty for fitting a normal cloak.) I was thinking that for the first class, the Black Ops with the Covert Ops Cloak could be more of a support ship, with a ship maintenance bay and perhaps a much larger fuel bay. Also allow them to fit ganglinks, and making even have Covert Ops Ganglinks that you can have active while cloaked. The DPS Black Ops would not have the ship maintenance bay, it would have more tank and gank, though, but unable to use the Covert Ops Cloak. You could give it the +2 warp strength (As was suggested already.)
A fleet of high-DPS Black Ops that can use Covert Ops Cloaks would be very overpowered, even at their current price tag. However, by giving two types of Black Ops, with very specific roles, you can make them actually useful without being a mindless blob. You could strategically use Black Ops in an extended conflict behind enemy lines.
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Dunn Idaho
Caldari Core Impulse
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Posted - 2010.03.15 12:32:00 -
[53]
Hmmm
- The ability to target a ship while cloaked would be nice, Then decloak and tackle that ****er right away.
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Kara Sharalien
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Posted - 2010.03.16 01:21:00 -
[54]
Originally by: galphi They either need more capabilities for their price, or less cost for their capabilities.
This is a sentiment I very much agree with. For 600mil, you get a BS that can jump, and bridge a few kinds of ships.
Considering you are paying 6 times the cost of a normal BS, I would expect more then that.
Originally by: Thuul'Khalat WHY YOU VIOLENCE MY BOAT?!
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Javelin6
Dirt Nap Squad
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Posted - 2010.03.18 08:26:00 -
[55]
To all the proponents of the dual hulls: Why don't you think that adding a second type that it will further marginalize an already niche support role?
Wouldn't it be better to fix the class we already have by adding additional capabilities?
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Raetherana
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Posted - 2010.03.23 20:25:00 -
[56]
covert ops cloak plz
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Raetherana
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Posted - 2010.03.23 20:34:00 -
[57]
Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o Edited by: 0oO0oOoOo0o on 14/03/2010 02:15:17 Give this ship the option to jump into other systems without a 2nd char, by starmap navigation (landing somewhere randomly in the target system) instead of using cynos.
This will instantly make these ships go from FAIL -to-> WIN
damn good idea
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Shepard Book
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.03.23 23:47:00 -
[58]
Cov op cloak and better tank please.
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