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New Dev Blog: Progress Update: Restoring Tranquility to Tranquility

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Ehranavaar	Posted - 2010.03.03 18:38:00 - [61] Originally by: Mei Tzu Originally by: Silly Petey Lol Ccp- that stuff you sold us keeps breaking Vendor- let me see the logs Ccp -errr they show nothing. Vendor- sorry for your loss. We hope you get back on your feet soon You mean it's "working as intended"? how do you folks at ccp avoid the temptation to smite people like this?
Kweel Nakashyn shadow and cloaking Yggdrasill.	Posted - 2010.03.03 18:51:00 - [62] If it's a race condition problem, you have multiple solution especially using : - input buffers in the RAM : Your f(a,/b) transforms into set c = /b; f(a,c). - Or transcode tables in RAM also : similar to switch case a,b when (a,b) : set c to ... when (a,/b) : set c to ... when (/a,b) : set c to ... when (/a,/b) : set c to ... end switch case if c then ... else ... I'm not sure if there is any other alternative about that problem. RAM. ~ OSEF
Kweel Nakashyn shadow and cloaking Yggdrasill.	Posted - 2010.03.03 19:10:00 - [63] Originally by: Tsabrock From some of my own programming experience, such problems can be agonizingly difficult to track-down. You know why ? Because most pgm can't indend their code and write proper boolean equations using minterm. (I put some _ instead of spaces because this forum don't allow multiple spaces) IF_____a ___AND_b IF_____NOT_a ___AND_____b IF_________(a_____OR_____b) ___AND_____(c_____OR_NOT_d) ___AND_NOT_(NOT_e_OR_NOT_f) Oooooh Holy Batman, I can count the minimal cycles now, and instantly know the result of the equation. ~ OSEF
Kweel Nakashyn shadow and cloaking Yggdrasill.	Posted - 2010.03.03 19:13:00 - [64] Originally by: Grez FYI, Oracle and MySQL would be a terrible switch. MSSQL is perfect for what they need it to do, you'd probably see a performance decrease on this level of transactions when switching to Oracle, and MySQL still has data integrity issues. DB2 ftw \o/ ~ OSEF
Paknac Queltel Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.03.03 20:41:00 - [65] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 03/03/2010 19:02:19 Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 03/03/2010 19:00:43 Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 03/03/2010 18:59:18 If it's a race condition problem, you have multiple solution especially using : - input buffers in the RAM : Your f(a,/b) transforms into set c = /b; f(a,c); - Or transcode tables in RAM also : similar to switch case a,b when (a,b) : set c to ... when (a,/b) : set c to ... when (/a,b) : set c to ... when (/a,/b) : set c to ... end switch case if c then ... else ... I'm not sure if there is any other alternative about that problem : RAM. And yes, you lost one cycle at least (from the not) + cycles from i/o acess to the ram. But you probably better have few lost cycle than ***ty answers. I'm sorry for ppl around but if this wasn't documented and/or tested by the electronic manufactorer, they are newbies. The programmer could* have seen it, if he came from electronics and drunk no beers, but as a formre engineer in electronics, this is quite newbish to me. :) Why they didn't hire me in electronics you ask ? I live in **ing France. After my degree I became a barman :D WAT. This crap is happening at least 2 levels of abstraction above where you're thinking it's happening. As such, electronics knowledge is largely irrelevant, and the 'electronic manufactorer' has nothing to do with this. This is all happening in software, not in hardware. To CCP: If I wake up screaming from a nightmare about debugging this kind of crap, it's all your fault. I hope you can live with nearly making a grown man weep. The horror, the horror...
Xikorita Mob Thought Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.03 22:43:00 - [66] "Turning off recycling of idle sessions seems promising as a workaround that makes triggering the bug less likely." So this is the reason that logged off pilots stay in space? Am I not safe anymore if I log?
Night Doc	Posted - 2010.03.03 23:09:00 - [67] this looks like the nail in the haystack problem very very hard to find, and a very very simple solution - Fit EVE to screen
Joe Censored Unknown-Entity Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.03 23:22:00 - [68] Edited by: Joe Censored on 03/03/2010 23:24:22 Originally by: Mithfindel Originally by: Jason Edwards I see alot of "our vendor" microsoft? cisco? IIRC, Microsoft SQL Server 2008. Ah this is disappointing. Use of an open source base OS for the SQL server would allow internal CCP kernel devs to quickly spot this type of race condition and implement a fix without the need for consultation with any outside vendor. Proprietary OS's like Windows or Mac OS always mean they have you by the balls when or even if they find your problem important enough for them to fix. (put several printk's in the TCP stack code at various places, and wait for the race condition and see what was last output... done you found the location of the issue, or at least how I would find it)
Xavin Nydek Ars ex Discordia	Posted - 2010.03.03 23:47:00 - [69] Originally by: Xikorita "Turning off recycling of idle sessions seems promising as a workaround that makes triggering the bug less likely." So this is the reason that logged off pilots stay in space? Am I not safe anymore if I log? No, they are talking about database connection sessions, not game sessions. I'm always amazed at the number of arrogant people who read about a complex problem like this, then post something like "well, if you idiots would just do this, it wouldn't be a problem." If they have been working with MS for months on this, I can assure you that there's not a simple or easy answer. Neither CCP nor MS are incompetent. It's also laughable that people are suggesting changing database systems. No thanks, I would rather have new features and fixed bugs than have everything stall for a year while they change the database, then end up with an entirely new set of issues that may or may not be worse than what we have now.
Skyrape	Posted - 2010.03.03 23:55:00 - [70] @CCP that's what you get when you use fail microsoft stuff! better switch to a real DBMS and a REAL server OS, cause honestly, I can't imagine how you guys survived so far, probably just throwing money at it I guess. And get some REAL technical support as well, cause what you run now is again FAIL
Pilk Mother Lovers	Posted - 2010.03.04 01:07:00 - [71] Originally by: Joe Censored Edited by: Joe Censored on 03/03/2010 23:24:22 Originally by: Mithfindel Originally by: Jason Edwards I see alot of "our vendor" microsoft? cisco? IIRC, Microsoft SQL Server 2008. Ah this is disappointing. Use of an open source base OS for the SQL server would allow internal CCP kernel devs to quickly spot this type of race condition and implement a fix without the need for consultation with any outside vendor. Proprietary OS's like Windows or Mac OS always mean they have you by the balls when or even if they find your problem important enough for them to fix. (put several printk's in the TCP stack code at various places, and wait for the race condition and see what was last output... done you found the location of the issue, or at least how I would find it) While I agree with you in principle, your point is misdirected. The problem is not in the TCP stack implementation in their OS, but in some combination of the way the DB server and clients cooperate on collection pooling and their monitoring for conditions necessitating failover. The best they could hope for as far as the type of debugging you propose is to run a sniffer on the segment in question, but the problem is that it's not easy to reproduce, so they'd be logging terabytes of data at minimum, if it's even possible for them to sniff and log on that segment in the first place. Or, to put it in a slightly-simpler way: the problem is at Layer 5 or above (i.e., the app's handling of the TCP sessions), not 3/4. One suggestion, if it it possible to do network-level logging: even a simple ring buffer approach would give you more than enough data, if it's tied into the failover system. Set it to log the last (amount of RAM minus 1GB or so), and add a trigger to your monitoring/failover system that turns off the logger (or have the logger notice the failover somehow). --P Kosh: The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. Tyrrax's bet status: PAID!
Hack Harrison Caldari	Posted - 2010.03.04 01:20:00 - [72] ROFL - Why is it that dumb ass users with no database knowledge see the term session and assume it pertains to their GAME session. For those that don't know - a database session is the name given to a client connecting to the server for a period of time (i.e. a session). As there are often high overheads associated with setting up and closing a session, compared to issueing a transaction (i.e. an update of some data), sessions are often pooled and reused rather then dropping them and recreating them. As such, the issue described here is in regards to what they said - TQ rebooting due to failover. This is a DIFFERENT issue to people getting lagged out in a large battle, which is due to the inability of the EVE (distributed) application to scale to battles of that size based on the current code base and server infrastructure.
Bomberlocks Minmatar Star Bombers	Posted - 2010.03.04 02:00:00 - [73] Originally by: CCP Fallout As many of you have notice, Tranquility has been less than tranquil of late. CCP Valar fills us in on the progress being made towards keeping Tranquility well-behaved in his newest dev blog. Thanks for the explanation. I appreciate it. Now, I have a copy of MS Access that you guys are welcome to use until you get the SQL Server problems sorted out.
Draco Argen	Posted - 2010.03.04 02:28:00 - [74] It's only just occurred to me. The sand box is where my cat goes to... well anyway, its not as fun to play in as it was Perhaps Eve is suffering the same problem :)
Bomberlocks Minmatar Star Bombers	Posted - 2010.03.04 02:48:00 - [75] Originally by: CCP Valar We know that problem lies in the TCP stack and likely has something to do with handling of closed or closing sockets... and Turning off recycling of idle sessions seems promising as a workaround that makes triggering the bug less likely This is very naive and simplistic of me, but if the race condition is caused by the interaction between the way the TCP stack handles opening and closing sockets and db session pooling, and since turning off session pooling seems to solve the problem (but cause another due to increased overhead) doesn't it stand to reason that that tuning the size of the session pool might help solve the problem? If the session pool is tuned proportionally to the number of open socket connections, accepting lag at higher connection numbers with increased reliability, perhaps you could keep the system running, albeit more slowly?
Ender Flagrante Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.03.04 04:41:00 - [76] Originally by: Freedom Netas Originally by: Ender Flagrante In before some idiot suggests switching to MySQL. In after some idiot defends MSSQL. I can only assume that you were referring to someone else since I made no mention of MSSQL.
Fade Toblack	Posted - 2010.03.04 09:47:00 - [77] Originally by: Xavin Nydek MS are incompetent. There fixed that for you. CCP have had somebody working full-time for 3 months on this problem? What's the TCO on that DB server now? Reckon you could've fixed it by now yourselves if you had something that came with source code? Also why has Microsoft suddenly become "the vendor" when talking about problems with their software?
Achura chick	Posted - 2010.03.04 11:43:00 - [78] know i left a continum transfuctioner somewhere.. you think it would work ?
Acrid Acid	Posted - 2010.03.04 14:55:00 - [79] Tha logz, D show Not THING! ...oh wait, I have been beated to it.
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E	Posted - 2010.03.04 15:14:00 - [80] Your logs never show anything.. tell us something we dont know www.garia.net
Arec Bardwin	Posted - 2010.03.04 15:24:00 - [81] Originally by: CCP Fallout ... Tranquility has been less than tranquil of late. People have started to enable sound????
Hawk TT Caldari Bulgarian Experienced Crackers Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.03.04 17:21:00 - [82] Oracle, Oracle, Oracle - LOFL... To anyone suggesting that Oracle is a good idea - THIS IS THE MOST BUGGY RDBMS EVER CREATED! I have quite extensive first-hand experience with complex and large Oralce deployments (multi TB databases, geographically dispersed RACs etc.). It's a nightmare - thousands of bugs, poor support and patching (unless you are NASA or the Pentagon) etc. I would definately agree that Oracle has serious advantages over M$ SQL Server (scalability, high-availability, performance etc.), but it is very, very BUGGY. Once you have a stable installation that works for your particular application it is not very wise to patch it. The problem is that EVE is an constantly evolving application and this approach does not really work... ___________________________________ Science & Diplomacy Manager @ BECKS Circle-of-Two
Brokers Clone	Posted - 2010.03.04 19:02:00 - [83] Originally by: Night Doc this looks like the nail in the haystack problem very very hard to find, and a very very simple solution well, in this case, the nail appears to be non ferrous, so the magnet trick didn't work.....
Eint Truzenzuzex	Posted - 2010.03.04 22:04:00 - [84] Let's face it. CCP good job, and seek the bug. I mean ever single winterexpesion i can remember, had a bug / issuse / problem. Who can remeber: - the sov. 4 relatet crashes, - the access violation if a dread goes into siege mode (BoD), - the forgotten pos.fixit file, - the show info bug, - the boot.ini, - the missing texture files and some/most ship where simply blue/pink, i mean that is the spice in eve, ccp will fix it even it take a few year's.
Zahira Wrath	Posted - 2010.03.04 22:30:00 - [85] Edited by: Zahira Wrath on 04/03/2010 22:30:42 Originally by: Joe Censored Ah this is disappointing. Use of an open source base OS for the SQL server would allow internal CCP kernel devs to quickly spot this type of race condition and implement a fix without the need for consultation with any outside vendor. Proprietary OS's like Windows or Mac OS always mean they have you by the balls when or even if they find your problem important enough for them to fix. From 1st page: Originally by: Ender Flagrante In before some idiot suggests switching to MySQL. To CCP: Good work, thanks for keeping us in the loop.
Maestro Del'Tirith Space Exploration Forward Motion Industries	Posted - 2010.03.05 03:14:00 - [86] Edited by: Maestro Del''Tirith on 05/03/2010 03:18:51 There's an obvious answer - stop buying databases from OS vendors and go buy a real one that actually scales. I'm being facetious of course - switch RDBMS at this stage would obviously be utterly ridiculous. One could only wish that SQL Server had a real solution for scaling via parallel processing. Unfortunately, as much as it is derided above, Oracle is the only DB on the market (well, standard RDBMS...obviously Hadoop style stuff isn't a question) that provides this with RAC. DB2, MySQL, Postgresql et al all have hacked in awful algorithms. But then, for a game like this, I can only imagine how absolutely impossible the Oracle licensing structure would be. Hope MS can help ya'll out...make sure you are punching hard and get your system into a lab with them. I can only assume the 'replication' option being discussed has to be something like Oracle's Real Application Testing framework. Best of luck. ------------- Looking for a mature group to play with? Recruitment Thread
Percy Soars	Posted - 2010.03.05 10:45:00 - [87] At least the intervals between failures is getting longer. 2010.02.28 23:35:00 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1277148 2010.02.20 13:54:00 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1272385 2010.02.10 16:07:00 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1266874 2010.02.09 12:45:00 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1266165 2010.01.28 19:54:00 Emergency Tranquility Downtime POS Problem http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1259230 2010.01.26 18:33:00 Dominion 1.1.1 Deployment http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1257997 2010.01.24 20:59:00 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1256814 2010.01.23 13:56:00 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1255969 2010.01.22 19:43:00 down due to a database issue http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1255488 2010.01.21 13:26:00 Dominion 1.1 Installed http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1254549 2010.01.20 13:22:00 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1254036 2010.01.14 12:29:00 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1250631 2010.01.13 09:28:00 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1250013 2009.12.28 03:08:00 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1240749 2009.12.18 11:58:00 Extended downtime http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1235167 2009.12.17 15:29:00 SQL issues http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1234721 2009.12.15 11:58:00 Dominion 1.0.3 deployment http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1233357 2009.12.09 17:35:00 network failure on a third party network http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1229802 2009.12.09 02:58:00 hard crash in the SQL Server engine http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1229439 2009.12.05 21:43:00 hard crash in the SQL Server engine http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227095 2009.12.02 20:43:00 Emergency reboot http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1224770
Marchocias Silent Ninja's	Posted - 2010.03.05 18:53:00 - [88] If you suggested switching DB, then you're insane... it would introduce a whole raft of different bugs, likely to be just as inconvenient as our current ones. Anyone who suggests switching RDBMS at this stage clearly either: a) doesn't work in the industry, thus has an irrelevant opinion b) does work in the industry, but really REALLY shouldn't. All RDBMSs have advantages and disadvantages. I have worked with both MSSQL and Oracle for a long time... I would say they both have thier pros and cons. Anyone who praises one, and slams the other is spouting nonsense - it only make sense within the context of the applications the DB is being used for. ---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it).
Zenst Aliastra	Posted - 2010.03.05 22:36:00 - [89] KARMA So its taken you this long to admit to us this. Read what people are saying, there are alot of good DBA's who play this game and i'm sure they could help, to have such a problem go on for so long is amazing for a production system, truely. What type of support you got with your vendor as I would of expected them to of at least had somebody working with you a pretty darn solid to of nailed this. Might be that you have the classic two vendor problem with the problem being in the middle of the two products talking. But reading what you have said I would of expected that type of feedback within a week, not months down the line. you still appear a bit lost as to what the actual problem is, given your trying kerplunk type fix's. Anyhow, keep us updated, more we know the more we can feedback and actualy think you care instead of waiting months to tell us you still havn't fixed what you broke. I must admit when you initialy started using M$'s database I was like eeep, I would of gone db2 or oracle, but I guess its a bit too far down the line in many respects now to change things. So, get in somebody who knows how to troubleshoot this type of stuff and can argue the toss with vendors who will bounce you about saying its the network and the network vendor going its the database. So what you calling this issue - eve2k . If you havn't done a conference call between the network vendor and the database vendor and ad in your hardware vendor then I suggest you do so and thrash it out as saying we plan to try this and that is like a GM telling me to reinstall my client only to have the same problem. Bottom line its your problem, you can blame who you like but the eve players have there contracts with you not some `vendor`. Perhaps there was a microsoft dba coder who lost a titan and got a poor response from ccp, I would imagine he would be laughing at all this now if he had to deal with your ticket.
Lusulpher Blackwater Syndicate Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.03.06 10:39:00 - [90] Originally by: Zenst KARMA Perhaps there was a microsoft dba coder who lost a titan and got a poor response from ccp, I would imagine he would be laughing at all this now if he had to deal with your ticket. Words right out of my mouth! The good old reimbursement response, but, TO CCP. 7

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