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Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Electus Matari
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Posted - 2010.03.06 12:13:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 06/03/2010 12:13:13 If this is turning into a "the Gallente aren't the (mostly) nice guys" whine, I regret my participation.
I love it that there are no good guys in EVE.
I'm a Minmatar roleplayer. I love it that it was us who started the Amarr/Minmatar war.
The story about how the traitors were executed, contrasting the Gallente and the Amarr, was awesome.
The problem right now is not that the Gallente are portrayed as the bad guys. There are currently two (three) problems.
First, the efforts of players are not rewarded equally. Some FW participants get huge stories for their efforts and are celebrated as heroes, while others get nothing at all, or even only stories telling them that their efforts were stupid. That's not good. I mean, where are the news stories about the Caldari corps going bankrupt because they lost the systems they invested in?
Solution: To make it "fair", either do not make official news from FW at all (bad), or set up some kind of "important events" ("50% hostile systems conquered", "50% resecured", etc.) that cause positive and rewarding news to be posted for one side, and negative and bad news to be posted for the other.
Second, in an effort to portray the "nice guys" (Gallente/Minmatar) as "not so nice" (a good idea, please continue!), there is a disparity in which the "bad guys" (Caldari/Amarr) are portrayed a bit too much as the "good guys" (Amarr released slaves and are building up the Mandate - where's my "Amarr are also bad" news?).
Solution: Make news about all of them being bad guys, each in their own way.
Third, the Empyrean Age novel was horrible and had the most silly story ever, and most RPers who try to incorporate it in all its improbable details will have to face their brain trying to kill them for that atrocity. But that affects all factions equally.
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Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
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Posted - 2010.03.06 12:22:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Andreus LeHane
Burning people alive, restricting personal freedom, denying the right to vote, trying to forcibly nationalise weapons production. Yeah, perfectly reasonable and flawless.
If you try some reading comprehension, you might notice 1) the fact that the paragraph you pulled that from is discussing the book, which was published before the events you mention occurred, and 2) the word "had", commonly used to indicate past tense.
The Gallente were clearly the good guys in TEA. In fact, they were go sugary sweet that my teeth hurt just from thinking about it. Thankfully, the events that followed showed a desperate and frightened people reacting in an interesting manner. They went from being the unmistakable good guys to once again being shaded gray. They may seem black to you now, but that'd be because you were used to the Federation being portrayed as the liberal home of freedom and drug-laced apple pies (a facet of Gallente culture that most certainly has not been a constant throughout its history). -----
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.03.06 13:01:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik If this is turning into a "the Gallente aren't the (mostly) nice guys" whine, I regret my participation.
I love it that there are no good guys in EVE.
I am upset, not that we are not being portrayed as paragons of virtue, but that our portrayal has clutchlessly shifted from "morally dubious" to "obviously villainous". There was an audible clunk. I think it may have registered on the Richter scale.
Originally by: Arkady Sadik The story about how the traitors were executed, contrasting the Gallente and the Amarr, was awesome.
The problem was that the positions were all switched about. The Gallente had all the right reasons for executing someone who had very nearly brought their civilization to its knees, but went about it in all the wrong ways - a televised, horrifically painful execution as a public spectacle. The Amarr had all the wrong reasons for executing Karsoth (or at least, the way Two Deaths frames it, they may have had good reasons, but to me it essentially all boils down to "he was corrupt and believed differently to us") but they did it exactly the right manner - a quiet, quick death whose method is not even specified. This is the same Empire who repeatedly surgically dismembered a man whose decisions they disapproved of on at least regional if not national television, with the end result of turning him into a quiet, well-mannered, toweringly insane psychopath. More importantly it also seemed massively out of character for the Federation to openly admit that someone inside their own leadership structure was rotten. I always got the impression that the Federation would spare no expense to lie to their people that their leadership structure was truly incorruptible in comparison to this "corrupt corporate executive" idea of the State that they portrayed. Heck, technically, the Federation, if they were not too generous with the actual details, could have said "it was all the State's fault!" without technically lying. Honestly I think it would have been far more in character for Foiritan to have had a quiet word with Eturrer, gloating about how his betrayal would be forgotten in the long run, and how it was all in vain, and then simply lie to the Federation. If the Caldari start talking about him, simply state that there's no historical record of anyone of that name ever existing, and that the Caldari are making it up to try and seed dissent - it's not exactly as if the Federation hasn't willingly swallowed complete lies like this before.
Your three major points I agree on entirely, however. -----
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2010.03.06 13:20:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik (currently)
Exactly. We plotted two major news articles last week and we've only released one so far.
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.03.06 13:23:00 -
[35]
Two?!
TWO?!
The Caldari got more than twenty! -----
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Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Electus Matari
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Posted - 2010.03.06 13:45:00 -
[36]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Arkady Sadik (currently)
Exactly. We plotted two major news articles last week and we've only released one so far.
Thank you :-)
I think it would be good to be a bit more careful with the order of such stories - you can affect player motivation a great deal there.
(Other than players never being happy, but I guess being in CCP means you grow a thick hide early on...)
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Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
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Posted - 2010.03.06 13:52:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Andreus LeHane Two?!
TWO?!
The Caldari got more than twenty!
Unless I'm completely mistaken, the Caldari Militia first had to win the entire warzone, then wait over two weeks to get a the medal announcement. Then two months passed before the auctioning of development rights.
Now the FDU gets a CCP reaction within days of securing Intaki, and you're complaining? -----
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.03.06 14:01:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Alexeph Stoekai Unless I'm completely mistaken
You are. The Caldari only had to take three systems in Verge Vendor to get this. We've had to tear more than half our systems back to even get noticed. -----
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Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift New Eden Research
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Posted - 2010.03.06 15:42:00 -
[39]
On this, I agree with Arkady: CCP should continue to paint all factions as "bad" to varying degrees. That is, not black or white, but ever-shifting, ever-churning mixtures of fractal grey.
I understand that part of Andreus' concern stems from a perception that the shift from "morally dubious" to "obviously villainous" happened without any steps in-between, but I'd submit that in RL politics, some folks will have that perception as well.
I wanted to cite a RL example related to 2001-09-11 but couldn't think of a way to do it without violating the forum rules, so I'll just note that you can probably imagine similar perceptions among various segments of society after the events of that day.
--
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Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Caldari Tietokone-Uirusu
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Posted - 2010.03.06 16:38:00 -
[40]
entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
"If a man will comprehend the richness and variety of the universe, and inspire his mind with a due measure of wonder and awe, he must contemplate the human intellect not only on its heights of genius but in its abysses of ineptitude..." ù A. E. Housman
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Jon Engel
Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
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Posted - 2010.03.06 19:52:00 -
[41]
Originally by: CCP Dropbear Well, hey now, you're pretty amazing too, Andreus. ♥
So you do get sarcasm?
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Dex Nederland
Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2010.03.06 21:13:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik Second, in an effort to portray the "nice guys" (Gallente/Minmatar) as "not so nice" (a good idea, please continue!), there is a disparity in which the "bad guys" (Caldari/Amarr) are portrayed a bit too much as the "good guys" (Amarr released slaves and are building up the Mandate - where's my "Amarr are also bad" news?).
Solution: Make news about all of them being bad guys, each in their own way.
So, I am only going to talk to the Caldari side of this and address the two most recent story arcs the Caldari had. Most recent first:
Mining Accident in Annaro System Traps 200 Miners - I do not believe this portrayed the Caldari State in a positive light. The man who allowed the slaves to save the trapped miners is being investigated (link) for breaking the law. This shows the State punishing a man who saved lives by sacrificing shared cultural values. I do not think that is positive.
Lai Dai, Sukuuvestaa Facing Sanctions for "Unlawful Anti-Competitive Measures" - this is the last article in the arc, but it started with the announcement of a conference. This arc (and others that started before it/around the same time) show the Caldari megacorporations attacking each other in the media, legally and physically. This is far from positive light in my eyes.
Is it a light that many of the Caldari RPers enjoy? Perhaps. Has it lead to anything interesting on the player side of the table, a little, but nothing to throw up in lights. Did we have an impact on these stories, before, during, or after? no
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Isaac Avernas
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Posted - 2010.03.07 10:52:00 -
[43]
Well you see the State while previously depicted as a functioning meritocracy suddenly materialized nepotism and starving masses in TEA, which were of course countered by a **** like regime in the form of the Provists lead by a single man as dictactor in contradition of Caldari tradition and cultural values. So to balance it out I propose the Federation be cast as a monolithic military-industrial complex with a colonialist past and dreams of manifest destiny.
...oh wait.
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Stitcher
Caldari ForgeTech Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.07 11:07:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Isaac Avernas ... to balance it out I propose the Federation be cast as a monolithic military-industrial complex with a colonialist past and dreams of manifest destiny.
...oh wait.
You forgot "with a big jingoistic streak" - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain. |
Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2010.03.07 12:42:00 -
[45]
Oh man! A Gallente complaining about being portrayed negatively!
Try doing some Amarr RP sometime. In the original race description (i don't know if its still there) it said that the Amarr were responsible for great good and great evil. When was the last time you read anything about great good coming from Amarr?
The lore says that Amarr were the first race to use warp, jump and stargates. Yet we are constantly portrayed as technologically backwards. Just read the description on the Providence.
We are supposed to have a military twice the size of the Gallente and Minmatar combined. But we are constantly on the receiving end of attacks. And when the Elder fleet showed up our carriers were crashing into each other. Amarrian lore is a list of military failures. Overthrown by slaves... somehow. Spanked by Jove. Abandoned by Khanid. Robbed by Defiants. Turned upside down by Elders. Turned back by the Gallente. Evil is fine, incompetence is something else.
As people we a always portrayed in the worst possible way. Both nobles and commoners are shown to be the worst types of religious hypocrites, adulterers, cheats, junkies, sadists and our Chancellor was even a fantastically obese ****ing Blood Raider!
For as long as I have been in the game this is how it's been. Amarrians are stupid, backward, sadistic, evil, hypocritical, weak, and utterly incompetent. Get used to the bad press. There's more on the way I'm sure.
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Isaac Avernas
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Posted - 2010.03.07 18:21:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Isaac Avernas on 07/03/2010 18:21:11
Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: Isaac Avernas ... to balance it out I propose the Federation be cast as a monolithic military-industrial complex with a colonialist past and dreams of manifest destiny.
...oh wait.
You forgot "with a big jingoistic streak"
Yep, there's also hedonism, segregation, elitism, euphemisms for foreigners and everyone's favorite; "Conspiracy theories that probably aren't true in reality but are perfectly plausible in a fictional setting featuring internet spaceships".
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Lucius Vindictus
Amarr Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2010.03.07 23:52:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Mr Reeth Oh man! A Gallente complaining about being portrayed negatively!
Try doing some Amarr RP sometime. In the original race description (i don't know if its still there) it said that the Amarr were responsible for great good and great evil. When was the last time you read anything about great good coming from Amarr?
The lore says that Amarr were the first race to use warp, jump and stargates. Yet we are constantly portrayed as technologically backwards. Just read the description on the Providence.
We are supposed to have a military twice the size of the Gallente and Minmatar combined. But we are constantly on the receiving end of attacks. And when the Elder fleet showed up our carriers were crashing into each other. Amarrian lore is a list of military failures. Overthrown by slaves... somehow. Spanked by Jove. Abandoned by Khanid. Robbed by Defiants. Turned upside down by Elders. Turned back by the Gallente. Evil is fine, incompetence is something else.
As people we a always portrayed in the worst possible way. Both nobles and commoners are shown to be the worst types of religious hypocrites, adulterers, cheats, junkies, sadists and our Chancellor was even a fantastically obese ****ing Blood Raider!
For as long as I have been in the game this is how it's been. Amarrians are stupid, backward, sadistic, evil, hypocritical, weak, and utterly incompetent. Get used to the bad press. There's more on the way I'm sure.
Lol! So true! You almost have to be a masochist to seriously RP an Amarrian at this point.
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Math'ra Hiede
Amarr Capital Ships Inc. Consortium.
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Posted - 2010.03.08 06:32:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Lucius Vindictus
Originally by: Mr Reeth Oh man! A Gallente complaining about being portrayed negatively!
Try doing some Amarr RP sometime. In the original race description (i don't know if its still there) it said that the Amarr were responsible for great good and great evil. When was the last time you read anything about great good coming from Amarr?
The lore says that Amarr were the first race to use warp, jump and stargates. Yet we are constantly portrayed as technologically backwards. Just read the description on the Providence.
We are supposed to have a military twice the size of the Gallente and Minmatar combined. But we are constantly on the receiving end of attacks. And when the Elder fleet showed up our carriers were crashing into each other. Amarrian lore is a list of military failures. Overthrown by slaves... somehow. Spanked by Jove. Abandoned by Khanid. Robbed by Defiants. Turned upside down by Elders. Turned back by the Gallente. Evil is fine, incompetence is something else.
As people we a always portrayed in the worst possible way. Both nobles and commoners are shown to be the worst types of religious hypocrites, adulterers, cheats, junkies, sadists and our Chancellor was even a fantastically obese ****ing Blood Raider!
For as long as I have been in the game this is how it's been. Amarrians are stupid, backward, sadistic, evil, hypocritical, weak, and utterly incompetent. Get used to the bad press. There's more on the way I'm sure.
Lol! So true! You almost have to be a masochist to seriously RP an Amarrian at this point.
this... so this...
No race really is a "Golden" race, they are all grimy, evil, screwed-in-the-head in one way shape or another....
Just run with it, how your character works though, is entirely up to you - and if you dislike how your respective race is portrayed... well I guess the old EVE maxim applies "Adapt or Die"
Something like that anyway :P ------------------------------------------------
Geburah Sephirot
"Innocence Proves Nothing" -Solen Sean
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Ogogov
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Posted - 2010.03.08 19:02:00 -
[49]
I doubt people would be as upset over this if it weren't for the fact that gallente racial ship bonuses aren't about the worst of the bunch couples with the three most mediocre weapons systems in the game.
It throws out the impression that nobody at CCP really wants to put any effort into the Gallente faction, at all - which begs the question why bother having them in the game if you're constantly going to treat them as the red-headed stepchild on both the fictional side and in the game mechanics.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei Butterfly Effect Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.09 11:19:00 -
[50]
Gallente were never the good guys and I am not complaining that gallente are not depicted as being good, but now they seem to have completely fallen out of favor with CCP.
Freedom was a very important aspect of the federation backstory and about how people abuse it. One large scale with mass exploitation and nepotism, an ever increasing gap between rich and poor, an underfunded navy with lots of admirals, that hold their position only for political reasons and on the individual level often with people acting without any self-control or restraint.
Now after Empyrean Age it feels more like some kind of "Starship-Troopers-Movie-Federation" and that is almost a 180degree turnaround to the past.
Quote: Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done
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Seriphyn Inhonores
Gallente Eleutherian Guard
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Posted - 2010.03.10 22:22:00 -
[51]
So when can we expect the second round of news items :o
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Magnus Nordir
Caldari Nordir Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.11 00:46:00 -
[52]
No more demonising Gallente please. Insane ramblings against the federation are slowly growing less insane. --------------------------- Only those who surrender are lost |
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2010.03.11 15:24:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores So when can we expect the second round of news items :o
Published just now, sorry about the delay.
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Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2010.03.11 15:32:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Lucius Vindictus
Lol! So true! You almost have to be a masochist to seriously RP an Amarrian at this point.
Now that I think about it I don't know of anybody that RPs Amarrian in the way they are depicted in the lore... except maybe Revan or that Darth Sage guy.
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Seriphyn Inhonores
Gallente Eleutherian Guard
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Posted - 2010.03.11 16:40:00 -
[55]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores So when can we expect the second round of news items :o
Published just now, sorry about the delay.
Hey, no need to apologize :D
More wondering if the Intaki ceasefire was the second one you were referring to.
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Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Electus Matari
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Posted - 2010.03.11 17:40:00 -
[56]
Lovely piece, thank you.
I especially liked the comment about SuVee and the "Practical faction".
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Lucius Vindictus
Amarr Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
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Posted - 2010.03.11 20:28:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Mr Reeth Now that I think about it I don't know of anybody that RPs Amarrian in the way they are depicted in the lore... except maybe Revan or that Darth Sage guy.
I tried for a while. But it's just too restrictive to be fun for long. I think you are right. I can't name a single one that stood the test of time and is still around.
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Gerard Deneth
Caldari Pavlov Labs GmBH Independent Faction
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Posted - 2010.03.12 01:22:00 -
[58]
Frankly the response of the Intaki are quite understanding. They got essentially thrown under the bus during the State Militia Blitz, during the Gallente election campaign they (almost) got their voting rights stripped (I think they did, which grinds them even more), and then the Caldari corporation that bought out the development rights ended up being the most pleasant of the bunch by far. Finally they ended up getting Mordus security instead of corporate dounut patrol.
I'm frankly unsurprised that they told the FDU and the Navy to stop at the border and get out. The Federation has failed the Intaki people spectacularly. No surprise they don't want their "help".
---------------------------- The Game's always changing under your feet; don't start moaning when you get a toe caught in the gears. |
Isaac Avernas
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Posted - 2010.03.12 07:56:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Isaac Avernas on 12/03/2010 07:58:37
Originally by: Arkady Sadik Lovely piece, thank you.
I especially liked the comment about SuVee and the "Practical faction".
Yeah, strange though that they didn't make any mention of Ishukone keeping its investment in Intaki, the only system they bid on. You'd think that would be just as notable as the SuVee situation.
Also what happened to Lai Dai's big reveal at the conference?
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Mephiston Lucius
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Posted - 2010.03.12 08:23:00 -
[60]
well i always thought ccp a bit lazy about news ad stuff. this game have so called 300-350k player in it.. soo there must be more news.. and ignore player base it has 7.5k solar systems 4-5 big empires and only a handfull of news posted? cmonn even 1k populated towns have more news than this.. i dont care which side is good or bad but there should be more news more "fiction" i'd say.. a short story every week thats all ccp can do ? even with after merging with white wolf?.. tbh i'm really dissapointed with lack of stories /news etc.. i was stunned with Jamly coronation video.. for example.. and i thought maybe there will be other videos like that. but what we get nothing.. i wanted to watch how "gallentean" will welcome their new leader.. but nothin come out of it.. just a mere a paragraph thats all..
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