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Dear CCP Abraxas, Ginger and Other EVE Storytelling Staff

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Andreus LeHane Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2010.03.05 15:35:00 - [1] Edited by: Andreus LeHane on 05/03/2010 15:46:57 Dear CCP Abraxas, Ginger and Other EVE Storytelling Staff, You are truly amazing! It's very nice to see that concern for even-handedness in treatment of the Gallente/Caldari war continues to remain at the forefront of your minds when writing news articles and chronicles. It is refreshing to know that this game treats roleplayers for both sides can be proud of their choice of allegiance, without undue concern that their side is being treated unfairly. Truly it is refreshing to see that neither side is being unfairly portrayed as the "bad guys", because I feel if that were to happen (which it isn't) it would cheapen the experience of an otherwise realistic storyline that doesn't feel like it has comic-book morality at work. For instance, I am very glad that there is not a clearly defined, heroic "good" side with unrealistic characteristics, nor is there a clearly defined, malevolent "evil" side with ridiculous "villain" characteristics such as having a mysterious, preternaturally intelligent evil genius for a leader or devising needlessly elaborate and painful deaths for personal pleasure. I feel that elements like this would detract from the all-important moral ambiguity of the game and I am truly glad that EVE is devoid of such manipulative attempts at forced characterisation. Lastly, I would like to thank you profusely for the lack of bias and fairness that you have treated the way in which participants of factional warfare interact with EVE's storyline. After the way in which Caldari were lauded as heroes for a long time when they held all the factional warfare systems, it is nice to see that after long hours of hard work reclaiming Federal systems, we are given a real reward for all our efforts! I have to tell you, if the first storyline decision following such a campaign had been to do something like, just of the top of my head, tell us that what we did didn't really matter at all, I would have been quite upset! I might have lost my temper and done something really stupid, like write an open letter rife with extremely poorly-veiled sarcasm! Thank god you didn't, right? I laud your expert judgement, and hope to see more excellent storyline arcs like this in the future! Yours truly, Andreus LeHane P.S. I really loved the Minmatar pulling that absolutely gigantic fleet from absolutely nowhere, too! That was an amazing and well-thought out twist and I was truly taken aback by how much thought and preparation had gone into providing hints of its existence beforehand. P.P.S After an extremely productive discussion with a friend of mine last night, we decided if we had one criticism, it's that you write about the Guristas far too much. -----
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.05 15:38:00 - [2] Caldari is awesome. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Andreus LeHane Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2010.03.05 15:49:00 - [3] Edited by: Andreus LeHane on 05/03/2010 15:49:28 I agree, and I am a staunch advocate of their current entirely unbiased portrayal in EVE canon! -----
Alexeph Stoekai Stoekai Corp	Posted - 2010.03.05 15:56:00 - [4] Dear Mr. Ixir... LeHane, I would just like to applaud you for finally getting over your passive-aggressive streak. -----
Benri Konpaku	Posted - 2010.03.05 16:00:00 - [5] Edited by: Benri Konpaku on 05/03/2010 16:02:03 So the new wave of whining will be about chronicles and etc? Now that's an interesting twist. PS: Noticed my veiled sarcasm? Eh? Eh?
Andreus LeHane Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2010.03.05 16:01:00 - [6] Edited by: Andreus LeHane on 05/03/2010 16:01:20 Originally by: Alexeph Stoekai Dear Mr. Ixir... LeHane, I would just like to applaud you for finally getting over your passive-aggressive streak. It took a lot of hard work! -----

CCP Shadow Caldari C C P	Posted - 2010.03.05 16:02:00 - [7] Moved to EVE Fiction.

Milo Caman Gallente Ghost Festival Naraka.	Posted - 2010.03.05 16:58:00 - [8] Originally by: Andreus LeHane Stuff It's a sad truth that CCP staff don't understand sarcasm. Amusing, but I doubt it'll get picked up on Out of Sinq
Andreus LeHane Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2010.03.05 17:22:00 - [9] I really have no idea from where you get this notion that I'm not being entirely sincere about this. -----
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Electus Matari	Posted - 2010.03.05 20:33:00 - [10] Being partial is one thing. I thought it was quite hilarious that the Minmatar losing 18 systems end of last year was worth an IC story, while recapturing those was not. Or that resecuring the last Amarrian system lost to the Minmatar in the beginning of FW was worth a medal, while resecuring the last Minmatar system captured by the Amarr (after 382 days of occupation!) wasn't even worth a news article. But hey, tough luck, life goes on, we play this for our RP, not to get fancy stories from CCP. The same partial news and story feedback on the Gallente side is worse. It's pretty cruel watching it. The Gallente FW (plexing-wise) totally on the bottom, being kept there for a long time, slowly fighting up, managing to turn the tides, getting systems back - and the reward? "We didn't want that liberation anyways" Not being able to deal with your sandbox actually being a sandbox is one thing. If you need the story for DUST or something, fine. But hell, if you have to give negative feedback for an extremely impressive effort, at least also give the players some positive feedback.

Ogogov	Posted - 2010.03.05 21:20:00 - [11] I guess it's all just a plot to eliminate a couple of factions from the EVE universe to cut down on development costs.

CCP Dropbear	Posted - 2010.03.05 22:18:00 - [12] Well, hey now, you're pretty amazing too, Andreus. ♥

Lucius Vindictus Amarr Knighthood of the Merciful Crown	Posted - 2010.03.05 22:29:00 - [13] Edited by: Lucius Vindictus on 05/03/2010 22:29:15 Some people take this game just a little too seriously.
Andreus LeHane Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2010.03.05 22:55:00 - [14] Originally by: CCP Dropbear Well, hey now, you're pretty amazing too, Andreus. ♥ Oh cool! A member of the dev team. Say, out of interest, in an entirely hypothetical scenario in which I had concerns about the storyline, who would I, as a player, address them to? -----
Verone Gallente Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.03.05 23:08:00 - [15] facepalm. >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2010.03.05 23:25:00 - [16] Edited by: Stitcher on 05/03/2010 23:27:10 Originally by: Verone facepalm. this Also: Originally by: Arkady Sadik Not being able to deal with your sandbox actually being a sandbox on the other hand... If you need the story for DUST or something, fine. But hell, if you have to give negative feedback for an extremely impressive effort, at least also give the players some positive feedback. Sheesh, but people read a lot into that trailer. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Lucius Vindictus Amarr Knighthood of the Merciful Crown	Posted - 2010.03.05 23:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Arkady Sadik Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 05/03/2010 20:39:21 Being partial is one thing. I thought it was quite hilarious that the Minmatar losing 18 systems end of last year was worth an IC story, while recapturing those was not. Or that resecuring the last Amarrian system lost to the Minmatar in the beginning of FW was worth a medal, while resecuring the last Minmatar system captured by the Amarr (after 382 days of occupation!) wasn't even worth a news article. But hey, tough luck, life goes on, we play this for our RP, not to get fancy stories from CCP. The same partial news and story feedback on the Gallente side is worse. It's pretty cruel watching it. The Gallente FW (plexing-wise) totally on the bottom, being kept there for a long time, slowly fighting up, managing to turn the tides, getting systems back - and the reward? "We didn't want that liberation anyways" Not being able to deal with your sandbox actually being a sandbox on the other hand... If you need the story for DUST or something, fine. But hell, if you have to give negative feedback for an extremely impressive effort, at least also give the players some positive feedback. The 18 systems should never have fallen in the first place. Because of the public outrage voiced by all sides some sort of coverage seemed right to me at the time. That said I agree with every other point you mentioned about the Amarr-Minmatar war. The TLF should at least have gotten some sort of praise for not only retaking all of their native systems, but taking the fight deep into enemy territory by now. Intaki (to me) seems to have a long-term story plot going on. The planet is shown on a screenshot in the DUST concept art, so there is bound to be strife there. A simple "and they lived happily ever after" may not fit in that story development.
Andreus LeHane Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2010.03.05 23:57:00 - [18] So what you're saying is that - purely hypothetically - it would be OK for CCP to outright ignore the accomplishments of players in a mechanic that they specifically set up to facilitate player interaction with the storyline simply because the players aren't accomplishing things the way they wanted them to be accomplished? That doesn't sound very sandboxy. -----
Casiella Truza Ecliptic Rift New Eden Research	Posted - 2010.03.06 00:04:00 - [19] Pretty much this. Occasionally I toy with the idea of applying to the ISD Mercury team, but then I feel like it wouldn't have much effect due to the larger elements already driven by the sort of "deus ex machina" storytelling also mentioned by Arkady. --
Lucius Vindictus Amarr Knighthood of the Merciful Crown	Posted - 2010.03.06 00:05:00 - [20] Edited by: Lucius Vindictus on 06/03/2010 00:06:40 Purely hypothetically CCP can do whatever the hell they want. If you don't like their sandbox, and prefer instant gratification there are alternatives. I'm only saying that they are the ones who make up the storylines, and almost never will 100% of the players agree with them. In the sandbox you can influence events, not dictate them to be to your liking entirely.

Andreus LeHane Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2010.03.06 00:23:00 - [21] In actuality yes, CCP can do whatever they want. I would prefer not to be told, however, that my actions have an impact on the world and on the storyline, if they in fact do not, and such things are fixed and unchangeable. I would like to be able to change the world. In the absence of that ability, however, I would prefer not to chase the illusion of it instead. I'm not saying I'd be happy being utterly powerless to change things in EVE, but I would be happier than if I laboured for years under the illusion of being able to change things when I can't. The only time I've ever felt sympathy for GoonSwarm was when it turned out a member of CCP was deliberately assisting their enemy, because it struck very close to home for, I think, most of EVE's players, and definitely most of its players who live in 0.0. Basically, in 0.0, and to a lesser extent in the whole of EVE, you're told "this is your space. You win or lose it entirely upon your own effort". A member of the dev team helping BoB - however much it was a product of his own actions and not CCP's - felt like that freedom, that power, that self-determination had been taken away, that someone was deciding who would prosper and who wouldn't and that the decision was out of the hands of the players. I even think quite a few members of BoB, however much they denied it, were secretly appalled that they had directly or indirectly profited off this. I think most players would agree that CCP directly ordaining who rises and who falls in 0.0 would be utterly, utterly unthinkable - it'd be the death of EVE, almost certainly. Now here in empire space, CCP gets to run things a little more closely because it's their story, but again, they've given us this system - however bad its mechanics may be - that allows us to directly influence that story, or so they tell us. But now that they've told us that, why should it be any less unthinkable that they proceed with a proposed course of action regardless of the efforts of militia players? -----
Lucius Vindictus Amarr Knighthood of the Merciful Crown	Posted - 2010.03.06 01:09:00 - [22] We are influencing the storyline. Just not in the grand spectacular way you would like. We aren't dictating the course of the story, but shaping some of the events instead. And sometimes only in a minor way. At best we get to pick the flavor of our icecream, but if we want cake instead, we're on our own! If that isn't enough for you I urge you again to create your own story instead of participating in theirs. It isn't like anyone is forcing you to pick icecream. From the start it should have been clear that the dev team had a few limitations in mind on what we capsuleers can accomplish storywise through faction warfare. For example we can't just steamroll a complete faction and remove it from the game. If the war theatre's weren't limited to only low-sec for example, what's to stop a major alliance from trolling FW by joining en-mass to eradicate one of the four empires for a few laughs? One of those limitations is obviously the extent in which we can control the fate of the planet Intaki. It may become involved in anything from a mostly diplomatic dispute to all-out civil war. The latter would be my preference because it would provide more war and strife and thus potentially more pew-pew fun for us eggers in addition to being a warzone in DUST. I don't see any "wrong" being done here. We're talking about fiction here, and it's up to the writer to decide on the story.
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2010.03.06 03:31:00 - [23] Originally by: "Andreus LeHane" I would prefer not to be told, however, that my actions have an impact on the world and on the storyline, if they in fact do not. But... they did. This whole storyline wouldn't actually be taking place if the FDU hadn't liberated the system. You're GETTING player-driven plot, you ARE impacting the storyline. It's just that you're not getting the plot/impact you wanted or were expecting. You were so prepared ICly for Intaki to welcome the FDU in with open arms and break out the bunting and brass bands for their saviours that you're actually disappointed OOCly that this isn't what's happened. That's not healthy, mate. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Verone Gallente Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.03.06 03:52:00 - [24] Originally by: Stitcher That's not healthy, mate. ^^^^ >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei Butterfly Effect Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.06 08:18:00 - [25] Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 06/03/2010 08:19:47 Andreus LeHane is right, but the sarcasm is wasted here. Expect more pro-Caldari chronicles soon.Ö Quote: Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done
Andreus LeHane Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2010.03.06 09:04:00 - [26] Originally by: Stitcher But... they did. This whole storyline wouldn't actually be taking place if the FDU hadn't liberated the system. You're GETTING player-driven plot, you ARE impacting the storyline. It's just that you're not getting the plot/impact you wanted or were expecting. You were so prepared ICly for Intaki to welcome the FDU in with open arms and break out the bunting and brass bands for their saviours that you're actually disappointed OOCly that this isn't what's happened. That's not healthy, mate. Firstly, if I hear one more mention of the phrase "not healthy", I'm going to start a drinking game. So stop it. Secondly, what I am concerned about here is two things: 1. A clear case of unbalanced storytelling in which the efforts of the Caldari get far more attention than similar efforts by the Gallente and the Minmatar, and the actions of the Caldari are cast in an almost universally positive light whereas the actions of the Gallente get an opposite treatment. When the Caldari invaded Federation space, they got a new news article about the places they conquered every week, and it was usually good news for the Caldari, or at least bad news for the Gallente. We had to reclaim half our systems and the most important one in Federal space against hard opposition to get a single world news article and it basically told us that all the work we'd done didn't matter one bit. 2. A shift in the characterisation of the Gallente Federation so vast as to be farcical. Somehow, we have moved from "stuffy, strongly elitist cultural imperialists" to "burning people on national television", from "strongly patriotic" to "arrest and detain anyone who questions the government", from "liberty is the right of all men" to "lol no votes for you" - in essence, we have gone from an ultimately well-meaning democratic civilization with some very serious "ends justify the means" ethical issues to a one-dimensional cardboard cutout nation of villains. One need only look at the militia ranks to see this. The fact that CCP is doing this is not in question - you and Verone are the only people out of everyone I've actually talked to about this who in any way refuse to admit that the characterisation of the Gallente is being manipulated this way. The way in which it is being altered is removing any depth or nuance from the faction, and leaving it a hollow, unsupportable strawman of itself. Having a designated villain side is just as harmful to the supposed moral ambiguity of EVE as having a designated hero. So I mean it's not right to expect that the Federation be portrayed as universal heroes and "good guys", but this is so blatant and so ridiculous that it's no wonder Federal roleplayers are getting upset. -----
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Electus Matari	Posted - 2010.03.06 10:20:00 - [27] Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 06/03/2010 10:19:56 Originally by: Stitcher You're GETTING player-driven plot, you ARE impacting the storyline. It's just that you're not getting the plot/impact you wanted or were expecting. You were so prepared ICly for Intaki to welcome the FDU in with open arms and break out the bunting and brass bands for their saviours that you're actually disappointed OOCly that this isn't what's happened. Dunno. The problem for me isn't that Intaki isn't going "OH COOL FREEDOM" - it's actually quite a nice story that they don't. The problem is that that is (currently) all the "official story" the FDU gets for their efforts. There should be some "omg awesome heroes you are great" story as well. Only has to be a single newspiece going on how great the FDU is. No big arc or anything. If CCP is giving negative feedback for whatever reason, they should also do some positive feedback as well. If you see what I mean.
Alexeph Stoekai Stoekai Corp	Posted - 2010.03.06 11:23:00 - [28] Originally by: Andreus LeHane The fact that CCP is doing this is not in question - you and Verone are the only people out of everyone I've actually talked to about this who in any way refuse to admit that the characterisation of the Gallente is being manipulated this way. Perhaps you need to get out more, then. Here's a 15-page thread on the subject (one of several to have cropped up on the topic, I believe) with more than a few who would side against your view. Originally by: Andreus LeHane The way in which it is being altered is removing any depth or nuance from the faction, and leaving it a hollow, unsupportable strawman of itself. Having a designated villain side is just as harmful to the supposed moral ambiguity of EVE as having a designated hero. So I mean it's not right to expect that the Federation be portrayed as universal heroes and "good guys", but this is so blatant and so... ridiculous that it's no wonder Federal roleplayers are getting upset. As someone who has spent a fair bit of time with both Amarr and Caldari roleplayers, I would like to point out that both groups considered their faction's portrayal in The Empyrean Age to be a ridiculous caricature intended to paint them as pure evil - while the Gallente had not a single flawed facet, despite there being a multitude of historically vile streaks in the Federation that could be pulled out to make them less than pure white. That's what happened. Last time the Federation was at war, they descended into a campaign of annihilation and essentially ethnic cleansing of the Caldari (and later Sansha's Nation - which probably didn't require them to alter much of their old anti-caldari propaganda), because a libertarian culture doesn't hold well in a state of war. The Gallente have been enjoying a stainless existence for quite some time, while the other factions have been dragged in the dirt. Perhaps it's just a matter of balancing things out. -----
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2010.03.06 11:36:00 - [29] Originally by: Andreus LeHane Firstly, if I hear one more mention of the phrase "not healthy", I'm going to start a drinking game. So stop it. No. It isn't. Neither is getting flaming drunk, btw. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Andreus LeHane Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2010.03.06 11:53:00 - [30] Edited by: Andreus LeHane on 06/03/2010 11:53:33 Originally by: Alexeph Stoekai As someone who has spent a fair bit of time with both Amarr and Caldari roleplayers, I would like to point out that both groups considered their faction's portrayal in The Empyrean Age to be a ridiculous caricature intended to paint them as pure evil You must be joking. The Gallente were blamed for starting the war by driving a Nyx into a peace conference, despite the fact that it was on the actions of an insane, ax-crazy veteran (or, actually, according to The Novel, the actions of an insane, ax-crazy powerbroker masquerading as an insane, ax-crazy veteran). The Caldari ignore - not destroy, not defeat, ignore - the entire Federation Navy and invade their home system, stealing one of their planets and then, when the Federation wants to fight, very graciously offering peace. The Amarr are invaded by the Minmatar and are on the verge of collapse when Jamyl Sarum arrives and saves the day in a glorious display of almost literal Deus Ex Machina and then, instead of pursuing the fleeing Minmatar into Minmatar space, orders the Imperial Navy to stop at the border. The Minmatar are portrayed as the aggressors, and so, bizarrely, despite the fact that they were the ones who got invaded, were the Gallente. The Gallente are then portrayed as the aggressors in the current factional warfare struggle, despite the fact that the Caldari were the ones who invaded their planet, and then, being unsatisfied even with that, invaded their low-sec systems as well. Originally by: Alexeph Stoekai while the Gallente had not a single flawed facet, Burning people alive, restricting personal freedom, denying the right to vote, trying to forcibly nationalise weapons production. Yeah, perfectly reasonable and flawless. -----



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