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Menkaure Amarr Vanitas Corp.	Posted - 2010.03.07 21:28:00 - [31] Originally by: Karma 1) UK gov takes money from UK citizens, promising to spend it on local important stuff. 2) UK gov doesn't, instead invest it in icelanding bank. doesn't tell UK citizens. (stealing). 3) Icelanding bank fails. money is lost. 4) UK gov expects the icelandic people to pay them back the money lost. Am I getting this straight? What? No. People are reading this in a completely different way to I am. The way I understand it... 1) 300,000 British customers deposit money into a bank. Icesave. 2) Icesave goes bankrupt, uses remaining funds (including those of brits/dutch) to reimburse Icelandic customers their account balances. 3) So Brits/Dutch money effectively disappears 4) British/Dutch governments pay out to reimburse the icesave customers their loss, expects to be repaid by the icelandic government. Regardless of who the customers are, be them local councils, charities, individuals... if you put money in a bank you can't expect it to simply disappear. I applaud the fact that Brit/Dutch governments covered the losses when they really didnt have to. I also don't think its entirely unwarranted that they want their money back off the icelandic government. (who really should of covered the losses themselves, tho theyd never be able to afford it)
Aya Otosaki Titan Indurstrial	Posted - 2010.03.07 21:37:00 - [32] Originally by: Menkaure 2) Icesave goes bankrupt, uses remaining funds (including those of brits/dutch) to reimburse Icelandic customers their account balances. bwhahahahahhahaha ----- Ignorance is my strength.
ceaon Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.07 21:41:00 - [33] Originally by: Menkaure What? No. People are reading this in a completely different way to I am. The way I understand it... 1) 300,000 British customers deposit money into a bank. Icesave. 2) Icesave goes bankrupt, uses remaining funds (including those of brits/dutch) to reimburse Icelandic customers their account balances. 3) So Brits/Dutch money effectively disappears 4) British/Dutch governments pay out to reimburse the icesave customers their loss, expects to be repaid by the icelandic government. Regardless of who the customers are, be them local councils, charities, individuals... if you put money in a bank you can't expect it to simply disappear. I applaud the fact that Brit/Dutch governments covered the losses when they really didnt have to. I also don't think its entirely unwarranted that they want their money back off the icelandic government. (who really should of covered the losses themselves, tho theyd never be able to afford it) yes that was a "bad move" if the UK gov waited to get from Iceland and then give that money to UK ppl there should be 300k angry ppl that whit a bit on hate management could be merged on right group of voters and stuff like boycotts protest random violence against iceland embassy and whit a bit of luck a new regulation law for banks under ppl pressure now ppl dont give a crap because they got the money back Signature removed, it needs to be more EVE related. Zymurgist dude u get a ship in game named crow and my sig have crows
annoing Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2010.03.07 21:48:00 - [34] Well, tbh, I have to laugh at the majority of 'poasts' in this threadnaught. To those who wrote about 'theft', local services blah blah blah .. please get a brain and try to understand a few things, apart from where your dummy has fallen: it wasnt the 'government' that invested in IceSave, it was your local/county council. Why did they do it? Simple really. You DONT want to pay high taxes for local services but you expect those same local services to be run at a high standard with no cutbacks. The money comes from where? The 'tax' you pay DOESNT pay for the services completely so your local/county council invests certain amounts in the hope of making more money, in the long term, to pay for the things that YOU want. A steady return on investments. But lets not worry about the taxes lost, worry about the charities that invested money to help those less fortunate than the brainless dimwits who shout 'theft' in this thread. To those of you that wrote about Iceland not getting into the EU, well they will. This wont make any real difference to the process. It WILL take a long while to gain trust in the financial markets but in 10 years time, it will all be forgotten (as far as the financiers are concerned anyway). Read the story again and notice that while Icelanders voted NO it wont make a difference, the money will still be paid back. A new agreement, that doesnt have to be ratified by a public vote, has been agreed. This new agreement sorted out such sticky issues as intrest payments, amount paid back yearly and local taxes (to pay for it) on the Icelandic people. So, the money will take some years longer to pay back than the agreement that was just voted on. So the money will be returned, no big loss to the UK/Dutch govt that it takes a little while longer to arrive. The money HAS to be paid back as the Icelandic govt acted as guarantor for the banks, therefore thay have no option BUT to pay. This is the modern world, get used to it or make your own country and get the fk out of here. Sucks to be Icelandic huh? Originally by:** Zeba Its all the pron. Fappy people are happy people
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei Butterfly Effect Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.07 22:07:00 - [35] Aside from the fact that someone always has to pay the money. That is the flaw for our money system. People expect high returns with zero risk and got told by the banksters that is possible. Then the same banks created a complicated system that they thought to be have zero risk for their own investments and so on. ... and one day the cardhouse collapsed. The Iceland Banks loaned more and more money and offered government guarantees and of course no one asked where the government would get the money. There is the risk that anyone who invested in Icesave took. One of the basic principles is, that profit is not coming out of nowhere. Someone has to work for it and there is no such such thing as no risk in high profit investments. People were lied to yes, but they mostly lied to themselves by not wanting to see, what was already laid out before their eyes. So the money is gone and the Icelanders refuse to pay for the greed of others and that is there right to do. Quote: Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done
Wuff Wuff Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.03.07 23:17:00 - [36] There's a couple more points no-one has really made yet. First, it was the individuals in the UK and Holland who made the decision to put their money into an Icelandic Bank. They did it because of the really high interest rate they were offering at the time. If they had thought about it logically for more than 2 seconds, if they had put the money into a British/Dutch bank, at least then the first few tens of thousands of ú/Ç of that money would have been covered under they're own governments financial systems. Obviously they thought, "Hey, it's a bank, my money is going to be safe." One of the great things about this whole financial mess is that it makes people realise that just because you put your money in something labelled a 'bank', does not automagically mean that your money is safe AND putting it in a bank that is not under the jurisdiction of your own country when you're supposed to be really careful with that money, is not perhaps the best idea. Whether these charities, local authorities did so from a position of naivety or not is neither here nor there. Just like in Eve, just because you don't know how something is, doesn't stop you getting burned by it. Secondly, a significant percentage of the general populace of Iceland are not totally without blame here in my opinion. You had a situation where fisherman were giving up their jobs to go and be bankers in these massive money machine finance and investment companies, people who to all extents and purposes had no business being in that sector, yet the positions were vacant and the money was good. I'm sure their wives/husbands/mothers weren't complaining about their big fat paychecks either. I think it's fine to say that the banking execs and the government who allowed Iceland to get to a point where they were so highly leveraged, were the biggest perpetrators and should be assigned most of the blame, but there were a heck of a lot of average Icelanders who got on board the gravy train when it was all good and are I'm sure now back on board their fishing boats shouting how none of this is their fault and they shouldn't be made to pay for the mistakes of greedy bankers. Not enough people on both sides of the fence taking enough responsibility for their actions IMO, and I'm saying this as a Brit. Originally by: Deviana Sevidon So the money is gone and the Icelanders refuse to pay for the greed of others and that is there right to do. Except as mentioned by me and someone above, they will be paying it, Icelanders will not get to vote on it this time, the terms will be fairer and in a great respect the fact that they will pay it back will probably stand them in better stead in the medium/long term. They will probably be the next country to get EU membership for example. - Wuffles
ceaon Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.07 23:23:00 - [37] Originally by: Wuff Wuff They will probably be the next country to get EU membership for example. lets hope not in next 15 years and after they change to law so other ppl outside Iceland can buy land there Signature removed, it needs to be more EVE related. Zymurgist dude u get a ship in game named crow and my sig have crows
Nebulous Minmatar Salvage Junkies	Posted - 2010.03.08 05:46:00 - [38] Originally by: Menkaure What? No. People are reading this in a completely different way to I am. The way I understand it... 1) 300,000 British customers deposit money into a bank. Icesave. 2) Icesave goes bankrupt, uses remaining funds (including those of brits/dutch) to reimburse Icelandic customers their account balances. 3) So Brits/Dutch money effectively disappears 4) British/Dutch governments pay out to reimburse the icesave customers their loss, expects to be repaid by the icelandic government. Regardless of who the customers are, be them local councils, charities, individuals... if you put money in a bank you can't expect it to simply disappear. I applaud the fact that Brit/Dutch governments covered the losses when they really didnt have to. I also don't think its entirely unwarranted that they want their money back off the icelandic government. (who really should of covered the losses themselves, tho theyd never be able to afford it) Yes there were some normal citizens who deposited money but they have been re-imbursed, the point is they had a "right" to deposit their money where they saw fit (because they earned it), charities and local councils had no "right" to do this, they took the money via tax and donation, the taxes were took with the "promise" of being put straight into local services, and the donations were took on the "promise" of helping the people those charities were set up to help, the fact this did not happen at its fullest potential means the money was taken via deception, this is "unlawful" and people should be in jail because of it. It has also come to light since the crisis that almost everyone who put money into the bank were warned about how big a risk it was, one monetary economist likened it to "putting your head in the mouth of a lion". ------------------------------------------
Abrazzar	Posted - 2010.03.08 07:54:00 - [39] Originally by: Wuff Wuff Except as mentioned by me and someone above, they will be paying it, Icelanders will not get to vote on it this time,... And this shows what really went bankrupt in the world: Democracy. --------
ceaon Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.08 12:44:00 - [40] Edited by: ceaon on 08/03/2010 12:50:12 Originally by: Abrazzar Originally by: Wuff Wuff Except as mentioned by me and someone above, they will be paying it, Icelanders will not get to vote on it this time,... And this shows what really went bankrupt in the world: Democracy. nope your reply is the "easy solution/answer" if you think better Iceland ppl voted a parliment and that parliament voted and agree whit the international banking standards so Iceland like country guarantee up to 40 000$ per account that are deposited on their banks around the world(world= country's that agree whit the 40k thing), Iceland population had to choice if they want to pay 20 or 25 years ago and they voted YES Signature removed, it needs to be more EVE related. Zymurgist dude u get a ship in game named crow and my sig have crows

GM Horse	Posted - 2010.03.08 13:40:00 - [41] Edited by: GM Horse on 08/03/2010 13:40:42 There's a lot of confusion in this thread as to what this actually means. The referendum did not reject repaying the money to Britain and the Netherlands, it rejected the specific terms and conditions set up in the earlier contract, which were considered unfair and exploitative. The primary point of contention in Iceland was the extremely high interest rates on the loans, which were 5.5% IIRC. The British and Dutch governments are getting their money back, they just aren't getting it back under the conditions previously negotiated. This referendum was largely symbolic anyway, because the previous contract which the Al¦ingi passed into law would only go into effect if Britain and the Netherlands would agree to them, which they did not. The law being nullified was already meaningless.

ceaon Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.08 17:59:00 - [42] @GM Horse i have understand that the referendum was against the $135 per month for each citizen for 8 years that are 100 euro per month so if you get 1000 euro per month(the average payment in spain)that is 10% of income is much but not excessive and taking the payment over move years you have to pay more because of interest and markets are never patient and also the country ratings can remain low for more years Signature removed, it needs to be more EVE related. Zymurgist dude u get a ship in game named crow and my sig have crows
0oO0oOoOo0o	Posted - 2010.03.08 19:30:00 - [43] Does this mean that Icelanders will be classified as (financial) terrorists once again ?
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.08 19:58:00 - [44] Nah i guess they all can get brittish or dutch citizenship after the invasion.
Thuranni Eldjotnar	Posted - 2010.03.09 12:57:00 - [45] Edited by: Thuranni on 09/03/2010 12:57:01 Originally by: ceaon @GM Horse i have understand that the referendum was against the $135 per month for each citizen for 8 years that are 100 euro per month so if you get 1000 euro per month(the average payment in spain)that is 10% of income is much but not excessive and taking the payment over move years you have to pay more because of interest and markets are never patient and also the country ratings can remain low for more years If you don't think that it's excessive to make every single man, woman and child in Iceland pay 10% of their income every month for 8 years straight to a foreign power to pay a debt they had no hand in creating, I don't even know what to say to you, you arrogant jingoist.
Tallaran Kouros Caldari	Posted - 2010.03.09 15:08:00 - [46] Originally by: Thuranni [ If you don't think that it's excessive to make every single man, woman and child in Iceland pay 10% of their income every month for 8 years straight to a foreign power to pay a debt they had no hand in creating, I don't even know what to say to you, you arrogant jingoist. So not a single person in Iceland benefited from the profit and taxes that the banks were paying during the boom time? No additional expenditure on healthcare and education? No capital infrastructure projects? Everything just built itself one day, right?
Thuranni Eldjotnar	Posted - 2010.03.09 16:01:00 - [47] Edited by: Thuranni on 09/03/2010 16:02:11 Originally by: Tallaran Kouros Originally by: Thuranni [ If you don't think that it's excessive to make every single man, woman and child in Iceland pay 10% of their income every month for 8 years straight to a foreign power to pay a debt they had no hand in creating, I don't even know what to say to you, you arrogant jingoist. So not a single person in Iceland benefited from the profit and taxes that the banks were paying during the boom time? No additional expenditure on healthcare and education? No capital infrastructure projects? Everything just built itself one day, right? I didn't say that. Don't put words in people's mouths to support your argument, it makes you look foolish. We should pay the bill for the Icesave fiasco, but we should do so on fair terms. Thanks to a unprecedented act of political heroism by our president, it seems that we will at least get another shot at negotiating these terms. The terms in the contract which got rejected in the referendum were brutally one sided in favor of the Dutch and British, and were created by two superpowers bullying a tiny, powerless nation. The only reason that our parliament accepted the deal was that the leading party, the Social Democrat Alliance, has no agenda other than getting Iceland into the EU, and were thus all too eager to fellate the British and Dutch governments.
ceaon Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.09 16:22:00 - [48] Edited by: ceaon on 09/03/2010 16:23:08 Originally by: Thuranni but we should do so on fair terms plz define what u mean by fair terms i dont see anything unfair in here until now UK and dutch gov took billions of $ from tax payers to fix the hole that icesave left behind seams is not fair for you to pay that money on 8 years money that any gov should like to have now whit the crisis.Seams for you is not fair to give money back to UK and dutch tax payers in 8 years when they put the money in a week. did u skill up hypocrisy to lvl 5 ? Signature removed, it needs to be more EVE related. Zymurgist dude u get a ship in game named crow and my sig have crows
Thuranni Eldjotnar	Posted - 2010.03.09 17:12:00 - [49] Edited by: Thuranni on 09/03/2010 17:18:50 Originally by: ceaon Edited by: ceaon on 09/03/2010 16:23:08 Originally by: Thuranni but we should do so on fair terms plz define what u mean by fair terms i dont see anything unfair in here until now UK and dutch gov took billions of $ from tax payers to fix the hole that icesave left behind seams is not fair for you to pay that money on 8 years money that any gov should like to have now whit the crisis.Seams for you is not fair to give money back to UK and dutch tax payers in 8 years when they put the money in a week. did u skill up hypocrisy to lvl 5 ? Iceland has a population of 300 thousand. The UK and Netherlands have a combined population of 78.5 million. Of course the UK and Netherlands have no problems coughing up the money, but a country as small as Iceland simply can't come up with these amounts of cash instantly. In any case, I don't even know why you are bringing up the timeframe in which the loan will be repayed, as it is completely inconsequential - The loan has a yearly interest rate, so a long term loan would simply result in more interest. The timeframe isn't the problem and never has been. The issue is not with the amount of time in which the loan will be repayed, it is with the interest rate - A interest rate of 6% is completely absurd. Had the UK and Netherlands invested this money somewhere else, they would have gotten a interest rate of around 3.3%. That is the rate which we are willing to pay. That is the fair rate. Edit: To demonstrate how incredibly problematic this is for Iceland, a equivalivent situation for the UK would be a debt of 1453.5 billion pounds. That's more than the UK's GDP.
ceaon Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.09 17:26:00 - [50] Edited by: ceaon on 09/03/2010 17:35:47 Originally by: Thuranni Iceland has a population of 300 thousand. The UK and Netherlands have a combined population of 78.5 million. A country as small as Iceland simply can't come up with these amounts of cash instantly. In any case, I don't even know why you are bringing up the timeframe in which the loan will be repayed, as it is completely inconsequential - The loan has a yearly interest rate, so a long term loan would simply result in more interest. The timeframe isn't the problem and never has been. The issue is not with the amount of time in which the loan will be repayed, it is with the interest rate - A interest rate of 6% is completely absurd. Had the UK and Netherlands invested this money somewhere else, they would have gotten a interest rate of around 3.3%. That is the rate which we are willing to pay. That is the fair rate. dont cry about the population now you should done that before you agree to pay the 40k per deposit so your country get the AAA+ ratings i dint see any cry and rage in 2008 2007 or 2006 about the how much u can back up your banks i dint see any news that said "Iceland cant guarantee the 40 000$ per deposit made on Iceland banks so the Iceland banks wont accept any deposits from foreign country's" Iceland profit so much from banks u just have to check the GDP $20 billions in 2007 and on 2009 $11 billions if Iceland dint profit from the burble how u lose $9 billions so fast ? Iceland was on party and got drunk whit other ppl money and now have to pay back you gov closed the eyes to this in order to get more tax money from the banks and keep up whit the promises if you dint forget gov is not self elected ppl vote them if u dont like what u get vote better next time.About the rate i really hope they take the 6% from you, Iceland have to crucified so other can learn from your mistakes, the punishment have to be exemplar so the lesson will remain in ppl heads. Signature removed, it needs to be more EVE related. Zymurgist dude u get a ship in game named crow and my sig have crows
Crawford McKinley	Posted - 2010.03.09 17:51:00 - [51] Originally by: Thuranni Edited by: Thuranni on 09/03/2010 17:18:50 Originally by: ceaon Edited by: ceaon on 09/03/2010 16:23:08 Originally by: Thuranni but we should do so on fair terms plz define what u mean by fair terms i dont see anything unfair in here until now UK and dutch gov took billions of $ from tax payers to fix the hole that icesave left behind seams is not fair for you to pay that money on 8 years money that any gov should like to have now whit the crisis.Seams for you is not fair to give money back to UK and dutch tax payers in 8 years when they put the money in a week. did u skill up hypocrisy to lvl 5 ? Iceland has a population of 300 thousand. The UK and Netherlands have a combined population of 78.5 million. Of course the UK and Netherlands have no problems coughing up the money, but a country as small as Iceland simply can't come up with these amounts of cash instantly. In any case, I don't even know why you are bringing up the timeframe in which the loan will be repayed, as it is completely inconsequential - The loan has a yearly interest rate, so a long term loan would simply result in more interest. The timeframe isn't the problem and never has been. The issue is not with the amount of time in which the loan will be repayed, it is with the interest rate - A interest rate of 6% is completely absurd. Had the UK and Netherlands invested this money somewhere else, they would have gotten a interest rate of around 3.3%. That is the rate which we are willing to pay. That is the fair rate. Edit: To demonstrate how incredibly problematic this is for Iceland, a equivalivent situation for the UK would be a debt of 1453.5 billion pounds. That's more than the UK's GDP. then perhaps they should have thought about that before taking the money and putting up guarantees of it being there. banks should be held accountable for the actions just like everyone else and if the government put up the guarantee then the icelandic people should have said something back then not now when its time to pay up.
Dray Caldari Euphoria Released	Posted - 2010.03.09 18:19:00 - [52] Edited by: Dray on 09/03/2010 18:23:01 In 2006 I had money to put into a savings/investment account and I looked at Iceland but was warned off by a friend in the banking business, basically he said it was too good to be true, and in banking there is no such thing. As it happened I had a far worse investment problem, my wife. No interest and shocking returns. Joking aside why should the people of Iceland have to pay for the mistakes of their over greedy banks and politicians, you cant argue the bankrupting of a country because of individual idiocy, bailing out the worlds banks was the worst thing any tax payers in any country had to stomach, millions suffering for the gross negligence and greed of a few, but the sad fact is not bailing them out might have been much much worse in the long term. Were the little people, were not special and the world doesn't owe us anything, get used to it.
Thuranni Eldjotnar	Posted - 2010.03.09 18:34:00 - [53] I don't think people are even reading what I'm typing. Iceland wants to pay it's debts. Iceland will pay it's debts. Iceland will not, however, pay it's debts under extortionist terms and conditions. Iceland will repay it's debts when a fair agreement on how to accomplish that is reached.
ceaon Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.09 18:47:00 - [54] Edited by: ceaon on 09/03/2010 18:51:40 Originally by: Dray Joking aside why should the people of Iceland have to pay for the mistakes of their over greedy banks and politicians greedy banks can be controlled by politicians whit regulations and politicians are elected by the population, most ppl have a hard time to understand this and somehow is normal because the humans dont even have 100 years of universal vote Originally by: Thuranni I don't think people are even reading what I'm typing. Iceland wants to pay it's debts. Iceland will pay it's debts. Iceland will not, however, pay it's debts under extortionist terms and conditions. Iceland will repay it's debts when a fair agreement on how to accomplish that is reached. I did but seams u dont get it Iceland must be "done" whithout lubricants so dont expect fair agreement Signature removed, it needs to be more EVE related. Zymurgist dude u get a ship in game named crow and my sig have crows
Thuranni Eldjotnar	Posted - 2010.03.09 18:57:00 - [55] Edited by: Thuranni on 09/03/2010 18:56:47 Originally by: ceaon I did but seams u dont get it Iceland must be "done" whithout lubricants so dont expect fair agreement If you don't feel that Iceland deserves fair treatment, then neither does the Netherlands and UK. Fine, we're not paying a single one of our worthless kr=na, then.
Taua Roqa Minmatar Toroidal Bum-Donuts	Posted - 2010.03.09 19:00:00 - [56] Iceland ranks below the Iceland food chain in the UK on google search, when searching for Iceland. I think that's punishment enough :O
Xen Gin Silurian Operations	Posted - 2010.03.09 20:38:00 - [57] Originally by: Taua Roqa Iceland ranks below the Iceland food chain in the UK on google search, when searching for Iceland. I think that's punishment enough :O So that must mean Iceland > Iceland....... universe implodes! ## You got that? Right I'll be back in approximately 300 seconds to retort! ##
Wuff Wuff Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.03.10 03:47:00 - [58] Originally by: Taua Roqa Iceland ranks below the Iceland food chain in the UK on google search, when searching for Iceland. I think that's punishment enough :O Or indeed the fact that the abomination that is Kerry Katona has/had anything to do with the word 'Iceland'. - Wuffles
Tallaran Kouros Caldari	Posted - 2010.03.10 09:05:00 - [59] Originally by: Thuranni Iceland has a population of 300 thousand. The UK and Netherlands have a combined population of 78.5 million. Of course the UK and Netherlands have no problems coughing up the money We had to find it instantly because the Icelandic regulator reneged on their promises. Had the government been willing to back the promises that had earlier been made, they wouldn't be in this situation.
Thuranni Eldjotnar	Posted - 2010.03.10 10:47:00 - [60] Originally by: Tallaran Kouros Originally by: Thuranni Iceland has a population of 300 thousand. The UK and Netherlands have a combined population of 78.5 million. Of course the UK and Netherlands have no problems coughing up the money We had to find it instantly because the Icelandic regulator reneged on their promises. Had the government been willing to back the promises that had earlier been made, they wouldn't be in this situation. This is not what happened. The UK and the Netherlands repayed all the accounts in Icesave before ever consulting the Icelandic government, and then sent them the bill. Then they started discussing how Iceland would repay them. I don't even get what you people are so angry about. We want to pay, we will pay, but surely you must understand that figuring out exactly how we're going to pay such a proportionally massive debt is a rather large issue. It's not like we have all that money stashed away somewhere and just don't want to share it.

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