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The *real* downside of pirating videogames

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Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.03.08 23:13:00 - [1] Ever noticed how games keep getting dumbed down most of the time ? That's because mostly morons actually buy games nowadays. And then, more people feel justified pirating games, because, hey, they mostly suck, so why bother pay for them ? It's a vicious circle. That's the arguments the anti-piracy advocates should be making _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
ceaon Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.08 23:22:00 - [2] most of the time i even dont bother to pirate them last game that i pre-order and is not a mmo is NS2 and i have a hard time to remember last game that i pirated most recent should be daoc for freeshards i think the last "single player" game that i pirated was civ4 more over 1,5-2 years ago Signature removed, it needs to be more EVE related. Zymurgist dude u get a ship in game named crow and my sig have crows
Magnus Nordir Caldari Nordir Industries	Posted - 2010.03.09 00:12:00 - [3] The only anti-piracy advocates are the huge companies who make ** games, and even they just use piracy as an excuse for their games being ty. Good games will sell well even without DRM (case in point: Paradox interactive, Stardock, Introversion software), and games will sell even worse if the morons making them further alienate their target audience with invasive DRM. But who the are we kidding, games are targeted at bumbling **s who don't know about computers and couldn't care any ing less if they have to bend over and take it up their ing ass so they can play the latest NFL game. It's ing idiots like those that drive the profits of companies that make games. And as long as the majority of the public continues to percept games as cheap entertainment and remains too ing ignorant to educate themselves about Software Freedom, privacy, DRM et cetera, they'll just continue to laugh all the way to the ing bank while the few costumers that actually cared about their ** games AND weren't uneducated morons abandon them at no consequence. There, I said it. The gaming industry has to stop relying on the morons for the DRM issue to become relevant to the big publishers. I don't know what contracts the developers are working under, but I'm pretty sure they can't be forced to keep making one **** game after another. --------------------------- Only those who surrender are lost
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Punic Corp.	Posted - 2010.03.09 00:13:00 - [4] If you don't count downloading old "abandonware" type stuff, I haven't pirated games since my high school days in the 90s. Possibly, I'm in the minority on that though... But I think the real reason games are the way they are today is more because computer games are a lot more poular today than they once were. It used to be good, complex strategy games actually were a big part of the gaming market. Now they're niche, while FPS and RTS type games dominate. There's a reason for that. ----- 'In Eve, as in real life, if you are bored it's your own fault.'
Motaka Caldari	Posted - 2010.03.09 00:31:00 - [5] Pc gamers tears are the best tears.
bff Jill	Posted - 2010.03.09 00:37:00 - [6] I learned to pirate after there was some conflict with DRM causing a few games to not load. I think it was my CD drive was not compatible or some crap i dont know it was a long time ago. I continued to pirate because it was more convenient to download a game than to obtain a physical copy. These days i mostly buy things from steam and impulse since they are convenient and its nice knowing you can just install them anywhere. Its a service worth paying for.
Jin Nib Resplendent Knives	Posted - 2010.03.09 00:46:00 - [7] Originally by: bff Jill Edited by: bff Jill on 09/03/2010 00:38:12 I learned to pirate after there was some conflict with DRM causing a few games to not load. I think it was my CD drive was not compatible or some crap i dont know it was a long time ago. I continued to pirate because it was more convenient to download a game than to obtain a physical copy. These days i mostly buy things from steam and impulse since they are convenient and its nice knowing you can just install them anywhere. Its a service worth paying for. Soon all the big names will split off into console only and we wont have to worry about their crappy games. We will be able to enjoy good games such as dwarf fortress. Which we enjoy at this point anyways... -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.03.09 02:48:00 - [8] I don't pirate games. then again I don't really play any games besides eve and a few xbox games. would be tempted to go buy the new battlefield game, but don't have a computer that could even play bf2142 (that is what 3-4 years old now? at this point).
AdmiralJohn The Unknown Bar and Pub	Posted - 2010.03.09 03:48:00 - [9] From the topic title I assumed it was about video games with plots about pirates teaching kids that they should grow up and live in Somalia. I feel shortchanged.
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2010.03.09 04:46:00 - [10] Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 09/03/2010 04:48:28 I totally agree. The vicious circle could be fixed if the developers could just make some decent **ing games again. edit: and **off with their ridiculous DRM (side note: I don't agree, but i want some decent games again) </rage> Victoria2 and dwarf fortress are my only true loves now _____________________ Horrors! Demons in the deep!

Kessiaan Minmatar Vagrants Inc	Posted - 2010.03.09 05:18:00 - [11] Except for MMOs I buy PC games from Steam exclusively now, just because the DRM on anything else is such a pain in the ass. I don't really care about the discs, the only way to own truly own software anymore is to steal it.
Jack Hsu	Posted - 2010.03.09 06:01:00 - [12] Originally by: Akita T Ever noticed how games keep getting dumbed down most of the time ? That's because mostly morons actually buy games nowadays. And then, more people feel justified pirating games, because, hey, they mostly suck, so why bother pay for them ? It's a vicious circle. That's the arguments the anti-piracy advocates should be making haha good point
Alchemist's Alt Gallente Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.03.09 06:26:00 - [13] My history with piracy started when EA **ed up sim city societies, at that point I was getting really anal with ALOT of EA games, eventually it felt like I was throwing away my money. So then I started the 'try before you buy' torrent way, demos werent enough and I wasnt prepared to demo trick myself into getting a game, I still buy games BUT only those that deserve money spent on them, unfortunately many games dont deserve to have a price tag. Microsoft on the other hand are ALWAYS bought, yes im a MS fanboi despite office / win 7 etc costing more than the average game they deserve to be paid for, I dont have anything against people pirating because they can. Now companies use the 'it is stealing' but realistically this has ALWAYS been a 'deception' vs 'stealing' war and companies should just find ways (without getting everyone arrested) in securing their **, instead they cry and whine much like the OP. FIRST!!
Motaka Caldari	Posted - 2010.03.09 07:39:00 - [14] Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 09/03/2010 04:48:28 I totally agree. The vicious circle could be fixed if the developers could just make some decent **ing games again. edit: and **off with their ridiculous DRM (side note: I don't agree, but i want some decent games again) </rage> Victoria2 and dwarf fortress are my only true loves now Define decent?Ive played some Fantastic games this year,Bayonetta,Darksiders,Heavy Rain,Mass effect 2. Later this year i will look forward to playing Red Dead Redemption(GTA and cowboys=win),yakuza 3,God of War 3,Mafia 2,Lost Planet 2,L.A Noire(hopefully). So developers are making decent games,but developers are getting sick and tired of thieving tw@s nicking their games and so are resorting to draconian measures to try and protect their IP.For the price of a half decent graphics card you could get yourself a shiny new Xbox 360 or PS3(i have both)and all your troubles would be solved. But i suspect you too like your free games.
TimMc Gallente Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings	Posted - 2010.03.09 08:44:00 - [15] Haven't pirated anything in a while. Tbh steam is so cheap and convenient it seems silly to not support developers.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.09 08:55:00 - [16] Edited by: Furb Killer on 09/03/2010 08:56:04 Add a good multiplayer and people will have to buy the game. Sadly lately especially the multiplayers have been made crap and dumbed down. (Lack of dedicated servers with several shooters, custom maps cannot be made anymore, stuff is so unstable it makes you wonder why anyone would even be interested in pirating it). Edit: Steam cheap? Since when? I pay way less by just buying it from webshop.
Toshiro GreyHawk	Posted - 2010.03.09 09:08:00 - [17] Eh ... When I was in college ... and didn't have any money ... all my software except the operating systems that came with my Z80B based computer were pirated. I couldn't buy software then ... it all cost frakking $400 (in 1983 dollars too ...) and I didn't frakking have $400 ... However ... using pirated software was a pain in the ass. Half the time it didn't frakking work. Of course - all this was before viruses. Once I got a decent tech job I bought everything. If it had some kind of copy protection greater than having to have the CD in the drive or a card board code wheel that came in the box ... I chucked it. Now that I'm retired ... I buy a lot fewer computer games ... but mostly because I'm playing EVE so I don't have that much more time. Download some piece of software off of some hacker site? NO. I don't frakking think so. If one out of a hundred of them have a virus in them - that's one to damn many. I have better things to do than clean a virus off my system because I was to cheap to buy the game - and - I sure as hell have better things to do than hack the damn thing myself. I know people who won't play a game they haven't stolen. They don't have their fun playing the game - they have their fun hacking it. Whatever ... They don't think anything of getting a virus either ... shrug Anyway - the whole thing with Pirated Software is - the real problem is not "Johnny Hacker and the Misfits" who've broken it's CP and are handing out free copies to all their friends ... it's the Foreign Countries that have Production Facilities manufacturing shrink wrapped copies of the thing wholesale. THAT is the software piracy problem. DRM does NOTHING about that, though I suppose requiring an internet connection back to the company is an attempt. The thing there is ... if they have the frakking resources to manufacture the software themselves ... they can probably circumvent anything a few hackers in a basement can. So what's the point? The defense against that - is to for national governments to lean on the governments of nations that allow that to go on. I mean - it's a frakking factory ... it's not like it's easy to hide. How they do that, trade sanctions, taxes, exclusions ... whatever - is up to them - but if anything is going to stop things like that ... it's up to the host country to be made to care enough to do something about it. Some little game manufacturing company isn't going to accomplish anything. The best defense against small scale piracy is - to produce a good game people are willing to pay for and continually update it so that legitimate customers will have a reason to want a legal copy. But as long as they can keep churning out crap and have people buy it ... and do stupid things like trying to defend it because some moronic lawyers have convinced them they have to ... they'll keep on down the same path of futility they've always been on and copy protection has always been a failure. They've been trying for decades and all it has ever done was frustrate the legal users. But jack asses never learn. So - they'll keep right on doing it. After all, the consultant that they hired told them to. I mean ... he wouldn't tell them to do something just so he could keep making money off of them ... now would he? Eh ... whatever ... I research my games now before I get involved and won't play a game that's crappy or has some lame ass DRM. It's to bad about Ubisoft though ... I really like IL-2. shrug Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.09 11:34:00 - [18] Originally by: Magnus Nordir The only anti-piracy advocates are the huge companies who make ** games, and even they just use piracy as an excuse for their games being ty. Good games will sell well even without DRM (case in point: Paradox interactive, Stardock, Introversion software), and games will sell even worse if the morons making them further alienate their target audience with invasive DRM. But who the are we kidding, games are targeted at bumbling **s who don't know about computers and couldn't care any ing less if they have to bend over and take it up their ing ass so they can play the latest NFL game. It's ing idiots like those that drive the profits of companies that make games. And as long as the majority of the public continues to percept games as cheap entertainment and remains too ing ignorant to educate themselves about Software Freedom, privacy, DRM et cetera, they'll just continue to laugh all the way to the ing bank while the few costumers that actually cared about their ** games AND weren't uneducated morons abandon them at no consequence. There, I said it. The gaming industry has to stop relying on the morons for the DRM issue to become relevant to the big publishers. I don't know what contracts the developers are working under, but I'm pretty sure they can't be forced to keep making one ** game after another. I see what you are saying and also do not understand the rabidness of "random annual sport game series fans," but I have to admit that what I see of the games they are done really well. Still do not see why a whole new product needs a whole new disks worth of content every year. But for everything else I will plead ignorance on gaming piracy on the grounds of little experince. The only games I ever pirated were for the Apple IIe. The reason being was that my family rarely made it to a location that carried computer games. So the only acces I had to them was through fellow classmates that would bring me copies of their floppies. Games like, Pong, Dig Dug, Breakout, Joust, Moon Patrol, and Beyond Castle Wolfenstein. Once computers staretd becoming more prominent the family bought games like Where In the "___" is Carmen Sandiego series, Boulder Dash, Oregon Trail, and I purchased a few Ad&D games. That being said my computer gaming experiance is limited to aformentioned Apple IIe games, DOOM, WoW, Neverwinter Nights II, and EVE. So it is not very deep. I have significantly more experience in "pirated" RPG systems. Pirated as in our DM would buy copies of new systems and then copie the players handbooks for us. If we stuck with a game we all would then buy the real Players Handbook, subsequent erratas, editions, monster manuals, and sometimes accessories to support the publisher. Slade Originally by:** Niccolado Starwalker Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat! ≡v≡
Ivana Drake Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2010.03.09 11:57:00 - [19] I'll pay for games that I'm likely to play for longer than a week, unless they have a ridiculous price tag (Modern Warfare, that means you)
Karma Vortex Incorporated	Posted - 2010.03.09 12:36:00 - [20] on dumbing down games... STO doesn't have full 3d flight (loops, rolls, or even the ability to fly straight up) because.. and this is a quote from a dev: Quote: We have toyed around with the pitch angles some - but it starts to become frustrating to most players when we test it because you'd be suprised how difficult it is for most people to grasp firing arcs on a 2D plane - and when you add more and more 3D - many people get very upset. (I know - i've been in the play tests) You may be like me and have no problems with 3D orientation and could probably have no problems and get a thrill out of full on 3D combat - but its a huge negative point to the majority of players who tested it. yeah. basically the players are too stupid to handle it, according to cryptic. anyway.. back on-tipoc.. videogames have become mainstream... how many really good movies have you seem lately... versus how many mediocre movies have you seen recently? in the last year, I can say I have seen two really good movies. Moon, and Summer Wars (but it's anime so doesn't count in this discussion)... and I've seen a hundred mediocre movies... plenty of which had the potential to be great, but failed in some key areas.... (grumble Avatar). in the last year I've played one really good game, Halo: ODST. and I've played a hundred mediocre games... plenty of which had the potential to be great, but failed in some key areas... (grumble STO) I wouldn't be too quick to judge piracy. it may simply be the evolution of this genre of entertainment.

Khors Amtek Inc	Posted - 2010.03.09 12:45:00 - [21] Originally by: Karma I've seen a hundred mediocre movies... plenty of which had the potential to be great, but failed in some key areas.... (grumble Avatar). It's only potential was having the name Cameron on it. The moment the trailer showed another flick completly made in front of bluescreen you knew it was going to be another tech showoff. -
Karma Vortex Incorporated	Posted - 2010.03.09 12:48:00 - [22] Originally by: Khors Originally by: Karma I've seen a hundred mediocre movies... plenty of which had the potential to be great, but failed in some key areas.... (grumble Avatar). It's only potential was having the name Cameron on it. The moment the trailer showed another flick completly made in front of bluescreen you knew it was going to be another tech showoff. I guess... but some tech showoffs were pretty good... Jurassic Park (though I can be suffering from nostalgia-tinted glasses now), the first Starwars movies, 2001, etc.
Magnus Nordir Caldari Nordir Industries	Posted - 2010.03.09 13:03:00 - [23] Originally by: Motaka developers are getting sick and tired of thieving tw@s nicking their games and so are resorting to draconian measures to try and protect their IP Stealing means you remove the original, and its owner is no longer in possession of it. That is not the case with software copyright infringement. Piracy implies illegally attacking a vessel on the high seas; That is also not the case with software copyright infringement. Now stop bleating the corporate propaganda against software copyright infringement. Are the developers entitled to their IP? Yes. Should we sympathize with the current system that rewards publishers for abusing the same IP over and over again and where less than 10% of the profit actually goes to developers? No. Software copyright infringment has nothing to do with stealing or piracy, it is an act of rebellion against the draconian copyright laws and invasive DRM. And for those of you who use Steam, please consider how "convenient" that piece of DRM software will be when Valve finally goes down and their servers with them. Or when they "accidentally" forward your credit card details to a Nigerian bank, sell your personal info to advertisement agencies, cover your games in personalised ads, etc. You don't buy games on Steam. You pay a lot of money for Valve to let you play the games as long as they feel like it while giving them freedom to abuse any and all data you had to give them to be allowed to borrow their games for an unspecified amount of time. --------------------------- Only those who surrender are lost
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.09 13:04:00 - [24] Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 09/03/2010 13:04:46 Originally by: Karma on dumbing down games... STO doesn't have full 3d flight (loops, rolls, or even the ability to fly straight up) because.. and this is a quote from a dev: Quote: We have toyed around with the pitch angles some - but it starts to become frustrating to most players when we test it because you'd be suprised how difficult it is for most people to grasp firing arcs on a 2D plane - and when you add more and more 3D - many people get very upset. (I know - i've been in the play tests) You may be like me and have no problems with 3D orientation and could probably have no problems and get a thrill out of full on 3D combat - but its a huge negative point to the majority of players who tested it. yeah. basically the players are too stupid to handle it, according to cryptic. anyway.. back on-tipoc.. videogames have become mainstream... how many really good movies have you seem lately... versus how many mediocre movies have you seen recently? in the last year, I can say I have seen two really good movies. Moon, and Summer Wars (but it's anime so doesn't count in this discussion)... and I've seen a hundred mediocre movies... plenty of which had the potential to be great, but failed in some key areas.... (grumble Avatar). in the last year I've played one really good game, Halo: ODST. and I've played a hundred mediocre games... plenty of which had the potential to be great, but failed in some key areas... (grumble STO) I wouldn't be too quick to judge piracy. it may simply be the evolution of this genre of entertainment. Unfortunately, for most start ups, not targeting the largest population as possible is the most likely path to failure. I would say EVE is ~~the~~ an exception to this fairly well established business practice. Slade Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat! ≡v≡
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2010.03.09 13:06:00 - [25] Originally by: Motaka Define decent?Ive played some Fantastic games this year,Bayonetta,Darksiders,Heavy Rain,Mass effect 2. Later this year i will look forward to playing Red Dead Redemption(GTA and cowboys=win),yakuza 3,God of War 3,Mafia 2,Lost Planet 2,L.A Noire(hopefully). for one, any game with quicktime events can gtfo and die (or press x not to). I generally play strategy, simulations, and RPGs, and tend away from shooters and hackn'slash as they bore me incredibly quickly. It's a personal decision of taste to not spend $60 on a game i'm going to enjoy for an hour and want to return after three Quote: So developers are making decent games,but developers are getting sick and tired of thieving tw@s nicking their games and so are resorting to draconian measures to try and protect their IP. DRM doesn't protect their IP. It does nothing of the sort; it's a minor hurdle to pirated versions. Spore and all the other games with crazy EA protection were pretty much hacked before their release. Ubisoft's DRM...lol. Talk about inconveniencing your players to protect your IP. Quote: For the price of a half decent graphics card you could get yourself a shiny new Xbox 360 or PS3(i have both)and all your troubles would be solved. or I could keep the $400 plus the howevermany dollars for subscriptions and additional company-brand externals plus $60/game and spend the money supporting non-** independent PC developers that make decent games, like i currently do. Quote:** But i suspect you too like your free games. Zzzz. [insert generic console flame here]. _____________________ Horrors! Demons in the deep!
Karma Vortex Incorporated	Posted - 2010.03.09 13:08:00 - [26] Originally by: Magnus Nordir Stealing means you remove the original, and its owner is no longer in possession of it. That is not the case with software copyright infringement. can't we agree that when people say 'stealing' when talking about copyright.. they actually mean 'illegal copying'?
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc. Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.09 13:13:00 - [27] Originally by: Karma Originally by: Magnus Nordir Stealing means you remove the original, and its owner is no longer in possession of it. That is not the case with software copyright infringement. can't we agree that when people say 'stealing' when talking about copyright.. they actually mean 'illegal copying'? Exactly. I do not see the "Big Guys" going after second hand music stores for re-buying their products and then marking them back up to under cut the "Big Guys" current production lines. Slade Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat! ≡v≡
Magnus Nordir Caldari Nordir Industries	Posted - 2010.03.09 13:18:00 - [28] Originally by: Karma can't we agree that when people say 'stealing' when talking about copyright.. they actually mean 'illegal copying'? No, because stealing actually, physically harms the original owner of the item. Software copyright infringement potentially harms the publisher's potential sales, if you assume that every illegally acquired copy of the software would have actually been sold. I find that not to be true in my case. I would never have bought even a fraction of all the **** games I acquire illegally. My software copyright infringment has never harmed anyone's profit, because I'll eventually pay money for any game/software I deem good enough, even if I initially acquire it through less-than-legal means. So there you have it, my "pirating" software actually helps those publishers that publish decent titles, because I'll pay for them after trying them out. I'd never even consider buying if I couldn't try it out first. And no, demos don't count. As for the stealing analogy, it's nothing but pure corporate propaganda to demonise the perfectly normal practice of trying before you buy. It's just another meaningless invention of the marketing system, and, as I've demonstrated, it has nothing to do with the actual act of stealing an object. --------------------------- Only those who surrender are lost
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2010.03.09 14:11:00 - [29] I used to pirate a few games a year, but haven't bothered in recent years. I pirated games I would have never bought, but I was bored and needed a distraction for a day or two. I bought all the games I liked and still do. I wan't the games I prefer to be developed further. So I would say, that game rental/resale services are the ones that mainly suffered from my pirating. Currently I don't bother with it, since I don't really even have the time to play the games I legally own. The funny part is, that DRM schemes seem to be mainly targeting the second hand market too instead of preventing net piracy. They know that they can't really prevent net piracy without excessive measures, but they can prevent the ability to lend and resell legal copies by forcing all kinds of limitations on the number/type of installations allowed per copy. People don't in fact own many games anymore, but are just renting them for limited personal use. @OP Games have been dumbed down for as long as I've been playing and most of them weren't that intellectually demanding in the first place. The moron market has always been the largest, but also the most competed over. Catering to it isn't always a bad idea, but catering to it at the expense of existing fanbase doesn't often end well. You will likely lose your existing fans and have no guarantees of making any more money. The moron market is so competed over, that you need adverticement muscle to even get noticed. They also have so many options to choose from, that they can ignore all half assed/mediocre games and are much less tolerant of issues with their games. Actually even if piracy was causing the dumbing down of games, I would consider it a good thing. Companies should focus on the people willing to spend money on their games and viewfighting piracy as a secondary issue. The people willing to use money are the only ones that should matter to your business and their needs needs to overwrite other considerations. That kind of thinking would also lead to some companies catering to the needs of the more intellectual gamers and make them listen to their customers and their needs and wants. They would be in the minority, but that wouldn't be anything new.
Kessiaan Minmatar Vagrants Inc	Posted - 2010.03.09 21:06:00 - [30] Edited by: Kessiaan on 09/03/2010 21:06:44 The problem is that you don't 'buy' software (and an increasing range of other non-physical good), you 'licence' them which is entirely different and the legal basis for all these ****ed DRM schemes. Games don't hold a lot of value to me (in the sense that I can't really see myself still playing any given game in 10 years except maybe EvE and I can't see myself getting upset about not being able to resell it in 10 years or have my license vanish in a puff of existential failure if I die), and software theft is a nuisance and there's always the risk of getting caught so I buy licenses from Steam instead. Valve will probably still be there in 10 years, I'm not out anything I actually care about if they aren't, and their DRM is totally transparent, hassle-free, and actually adds value by letting me re-download and re-install the games I have purchased licenses for without any ****ed install limits or discs to lose.



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