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Backfyre
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Posted - 2010.03.10 16:20:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Backfyre on 10/03/2010 16:20:27 [soapbox] I generally like complex crafting in MMOs and like T2 invention. I recently came back to Eve and started repopulating my spreadsheets with current costs and am stunned as to how many people cannot do math. That makes it difficult to compete on the market as these people are selling at a loss and don't even know it. I'm thinking it is more profitable to just sell these people my datacores and BPCs. A lot of the errors appear to be simply not adjusting invention costs by the success rate or just not factoring in the cost of invention at all. And, yes, I can generally tell the difference between a BPO holder and somebody who botches their math from clear multi-modal prices on the market. [/soapbox]
For example, current cost to invent a (-1,-1 1-run) Deimos BPC is about 30M and cost to produce around 92M yet there is a whole pile on the market at 108M, which corresponds to materials + 1 invention try + small profit. The math errors are even more obvious if you look at T2 drones.
For those getting into T2 invention, use the calculators (I like this summary) to estimate your invention chance and then use that as a factor against your invention costs - decryptor, datacores, BPC, "lab costs", and even a data interface "surcharge".
Sorry about the minor rant... |
Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.03.10 16:46:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 10/03/2010 16:46:10 Established carebears keeping the costs down for the rest of us ftw! |
Billia
I'm On A Boat Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.10 17:20:00 -
[3]
the problem is there is so many people producing that they each undercut each other until there is no profit. If there is profit to be had hundreds of people will flock to it until it is not profitable. hence the need for a sustained competitive advantage in industry. there is sooooo many pos's and people inventing in hisec, it floods the market. now if u all could just flood the market with more hulk bpc's and hulks in general to bring that price down that would be great kk thx.
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JAG Solex
GunStars
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Posted - 2010.03.10 17:38:00 -
[4]
[Rant]
These threads are getting tiresome.. why bother? People are not getting the message, because either:
a) they don't read these forums b) they just plain stupid c) they done the math, and don't care about your whine
Simple fact is this is a game... people don't care about factoring in the costs for datacores, or minerals if they get the for free with an army of research alts, or mine their owne minerals.
I'm tired of people complaining about the market prices not being perfectly accurate to the cost of producing.. you know what? if all you had to do was buy the materials, do a little invention, and then dump the products on the market for a nice margin, everyone and their grandmas would be doing that, the market would be flooded, and the prices would go down to about the cost of producing..
so quit whining, get yourself an alt army, get some of the costs for nothing, or put in a little slave labour (because that's what it is), and compete... or not. Just stop trying to edumacate the masses with your cool maths..
[/Rant] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [SMK.C] |
Aglarond
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Posted - 2010.03.10 20:59:00 -
[5]
Actually jag, they are at the cost of production and alot of time under. Didnt you know that if I mine my ore, it's free? duh!
Abandon hope for the Caldari Race.
It's always a bitter moment when something gets nerfed. Not because CCP decided something genuinely needed an adjustment, but because somewhere some whiner is g |
Dr Caymus
Gallente Applied Technologies Inc Agents of Fortune
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Posted - 2010.03.10 21:03:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Backfyre
For example, current cost to invent a (-1,-1 1-run) Deimos BPC is about 30M and cost to produce around 92M yet there is a whole pile on the market at 108M, which corresponds to materials + 1 invention try + small profit.
Funny you should mention the Deimos. I have production costs for a -1 ME Deimos at about 70 million ISK, before invention cost. That assumes that you build all of your own T2 components and Thorax ships, and that you purchase your refined materials on the market at prices of the average of bid and asked.
My real point though, is that BPO holders significantly influence this particular market. A BPO produces about 7 ships per week, and I'm pretty sure there are 20 of them out there. Jita/Forge sales volume is only 20 units a day (total universal volume something higher). Thus, BPO production represents a significant if not majority of this market.
The cost of a Deimos at ME 0 is about 65 million ISK, so BPO holders are enjoying handsome profits. There is just not enogh sales volume in the Deimos to make it an attractive product to the inventor.
Dr Caymus -=ATI=-
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JAG Solex
GunStars
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Posted - 2010.03.11 00:08:00 -
[7]
Edited by: JAG Solex on 11/03/2010 00:11:58
Originally by: Aglarond Didnt you know that if I mine my ore, it's free? duh!
Yes! exactly.. let's talk about "free".
"Corp" mining op. Translation: free minerals, from free labour. Corp takes said minerals and builds a boat load of ships and dumps on the market CHEAP for PvPers and mission runners. PvPers and Mission runners turn their labour into isk from ratting and missions. Translation. Free labour screws the economy.. we will never have a perfect market where prices accurately reflect the "true" cost of production. Let's stop moaning and groaning about it, and accept it.
Edit:
It's actually a lot like real life in that the industrialized nations ***** and complain about foreign countries flooding the markets with their cheap goods produced by practically slave labour.. coincidence??
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.03.11 00:09:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Dr Caymus The cost of a Deimos at ME 0 is about 65 million ISK, so BPO holders are enjoying handsome profits. There is just not enogh sales volume in the Deimos to make it an attractive product to the inventor.
You know it has to go here.....
Time to get rid of the T2 BPOs. I've heard tell that it takes about 2 years of constant use to earn back the cost you'll pay for a T2 BPO on auction.
Okay, calculate reasonible max production rate per week, multiply by 100 to come up with about 2 years worth, and convert the BPOs into BPCs with that many runs. (Or multiple max-run BPCs to total the desired number of runs.)
It will take a couple years for the builders to use up those BPCs and for the market to adjust... so the sooner they get started, the better.
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Dr Caymus
Gallente Applied Technologies Inc Agents of Fortune
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Posted - 2010.03.11 00:50:00 -
[9]
Another alternative might be to drive down the cost of manufacturing T2 ships off of invented BPCs. Close the gap between the cost of building off of a BPC and the cost of building off of a BPO. This could be approached on two fronts:
With respect to the cost of invention, it already appears that decryptors are being more heavily seeded, as sales volumes are up and prices down for a number of popular units. Datacore delivery rates from research agents could be increased, further reducing the cost of invention. T1 BPC copy times could reduced to provide an increased supply of copies for the invention process. A goal might be to reduce BPC invention costs to just a percent or two to the overall cost of production.
With respect to the invented BPCs, the best BPC material efficiency could be reset to 0 instead of -1. Then remap the material input penalty for each successive negative ME point to smaller incremental increases. The current 10% increase in material requirements for each negative ME point might be a bit excessive in the post-Dominion environment, and even more so if invention costs are driven down.
This would facilitate more competition and lower overall ship prices, helping lead more people into T2 ships. BPO holders would still retain a slight advantage in that their BPOs would retain the ability to be researched to better ME and PE levels.
Dr Caymus -=ATI=-
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2010.03.11 01:21:00 -
[10]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa Time to get rid of the T2 BPOs. I've heard tell that it takes about 2 years of constant use to earn back the cost you'll pay for a T2 BPO on auction.
Okay, calculate reasonible max production rate per week, multiply by 100 to come up with about 2 years worth, and convert the BPOs into BPCs with that many runs. (Or multiple max-run BPCs to total the desired number of runs.)
More like 7-10 years for most. And doing as you suggest would actually increase their profits, while decreasing invention profits and squeezing out inventors.
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SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.03.11 01:46:00 -
[11]
Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 11/03/2010 01:46:59
Originally by: JAG Solex [Rant]
These threads are getting tiresome.. why bother? People are not getting the message, because either:
a) they don't read these forums b) they just plain stupid c) they done the math, and don't care about your whine
Simple fact is this is a game... people don't care about factoring in the costs for datacores, or minerals if they get the for free with an army of research alts, or mine their owne minerals.
I'm tired of people complaining about the market prices not being perfectly accurate to the cost of producing.. you know what? if all you had to do was buy the materials, do a little invention, and then dump the products on the market for a nice margin, everyone and their grandmas would be doing that, the market would be flooded, and the prices would go down to about the cost of producing..
so quit whining, get yourself an alt army, get some of the costs for nothing, or put in a little slave labour (because that's what it is), and compete... or not. Just stop trying to edumacate the masses with your cool maths..
[/Rant]
Brilliant example of what the OP is talking about tbh.
The portion of the costs that you get "for nothing" still have a value, even if you didn't directly pay ISK for it. If the end product is selling at a loss, the smart thing to do - the thing people who can do math will do - is to get yourself an alt army, and then sell the parts that you "got for free", because they are worth more in their "raw" format than they are once built. That's the point. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Enthral
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Posted - 2010.03.11 02:04:00 -
[12]
I know some people want to blame T2 BPO holders, but the situation is the same for T2 ships which don't have T2 BPO's. It's also generally the same for T1 battleships ships at the moment, too, depending on region.
The big question I have is not what we can do to somehow force people to make better (or even some) profit on ship production. The big question is, why the heck any of these people, with all of this supposed math-smarts, cares what happens in saturated markets?
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altyaltyaltyalt
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Posted - 2010.03.11 02:11:00 -
[13]
Hi all,
My name is altyaltyaltyalt. And I own a bunch of moons. I've got enough moons that I feel like I have to invent stuff myself to move a little bit of moon goo. It's too bad for you that I really don't give a **** if my method of dumping moon product affects your profit margins.
Sincerely,
altyaltyaltyalt |
Missm Uppet
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Posted - 2010.03.11 03:13:00 -
[14]
Originally by: altyaltyaltyalt Hi all,
My name is altyaltyaltyalt. And I own a bunch of moons. I've got enough moons that I feel like I have to invent stuff myself to move a little bit of moon goo. It's too bad for you that I really don't give a **** if my method of dumping moon product affects your profit margins.
Sincerely,
altyaltyaltyalt
This is pretty accurate. Unloading your moon goo can be a lot less of a hassle by building it all into ship. Less baby-sitting of orders in Jita is a good thing. Yeah you lose some profit potential, but let's face it, time and headache of managing orders is something some of us can't be bothered with.
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Kat Bandeis
Caldari Wacom Research
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Posted - 2010.03.11 03:40:00 -
[15]
I'm curious why so many people are getting their panties in a bunch over what THEY think others should consider their cost? WTF do any of you care? If I price something 10% under low market and it sells, it's money in my friggin' pocket, not the other guys. My wallet increased, I paid my costs, and won in that PVP battle.
Why the **** do any of you care what I sell something for?
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Enthral
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Posted - 2010.03.11 04:30:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Enthral on 11/03/2010 04:31:16
Originally by: Kat Bandeis Why the **** do any of you care what I sell something for?
I doubt any of us really care, when it comes down to it. It's a game, we spend a lot of time doing it, and we like talking about it. Better still is when we can talk about it with some air of superiority. After all, we wouldn't play this game if we didn't like to feel superior to others. Heck, we even feel superior about the MMO we play--damn those stupid WoW players!
EVE is all about being better than someone else, whether that is the guy I just podded or the market I just flooded with cheap modules.
The only person in EVE who is beyond this sort of thing is Chribba, and that's only because he actually is superior to everyone else. Except me, of course!
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Wieting Foyu
Gallente Foyu Trading World
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Posted - 2010.03.11 07:36:00 -
[17]
hmm, that's funny. I do the math all the time and I am making a profit. My buy orders of 90-95m get filled and I sell at 110m. Maybe you should realize not all sellers are the builders and stop whining because it costs you more to build than it does for me to buy.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.11 09:49:00 -
[18]
Quote:
For those getting into T2 invention, use the calculators (I like this summary) to estimate your invention chance and then use that as a factor against your invention costs - decryptor, datacores, BPC, "lab costs", and even a data interface "surcharge".
Sorry about the minor rant...
Hypercapitalism (EvE is an implementation of it) is a religion of money, completely and all about fu**ing the other HARD while having him believe he's doing well. Free labor, super-low cost products, people hauling billions worth of stuff for hours for 200k. It's all possible, all done, all it takes is that you are the one doing it and not the one getting done by it.
There's 95% of players who are perfect idiots and their wallet won't ever reach 1B (as for CCP statistics in their QEN), the remaining 5% are their rulers and revel in economic success.
Why do you try change that? Be in the silent 5% and reap the benefits!
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2010.03.11 12:11:00 -
[19]
As usual the convoluted mix of good points and misundertsanding dominate a margin thread.
-Many people do look at data cores as "free' for some crazy reason.
-Low volume ships like the Demios have their prices strongly influenced by BPOs.
-The lowest prices on the market(over the course of a week) are ussually people unloading old ships or overstock for for quick cash and dont mean much.
-No conclusions should be drawn about T1 BS prices except that many miners mission runners use them as a way quickly sell minerals. To a smaller degree this also impacts T2 prices.
-the time consuming effort of managing sell prices often makes it more profitable in terms of RL time to just sell the finishied products even if it means lower margins rather than sell the a large variety of raw materials.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Gunnanmon
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2010.03.11 12:38:00 -
[20]
tl;dr. But I assume it was a ****e post. Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
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Backfyre
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Posted - 2010.03.11 15:56:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Backfyre on 11/03/2010 15:56:33 Okay, the deimos was not the best example due to low volume and new mat prices do bring it down a little, but not to 75 in my books. I was using average regional pricing figuring that is the reference for deciding whether to sell the mats or sell the end item. I also fly the deimos so I also follow its pricing as part of my make / buy decision. In practice, one would put up buy orders below that value but that digresses from the point. Also, regional prices vary. The trends are more clear in some of the T2 drones.
As with all production, you have to find the "sweet spot" and I agree that the deimos is not it. Frankly I don't care if people sell below cost though it does make finding the profit a bit more challenging. I'm just trying to understand the "behaviors" so I can navigate to a better bank roll. Basic observation: PT Barnum transcends realities. /shrug
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2010.03.11 16:06:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Backfyre PT Barnum transcends realities. /shrug
Im sure their is plenty of delision in the markets but your "basic observation" seems to have rather little to do with the details you mentioned.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Backfyre
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Posted - 2010.03.11 16:14:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ghoest
Originally by: Backfyre PT Barnum transcends realities. /shrug
Im sure their is plenty of delision in the markets but your "basic observation" seems to have rather little to do with the details you mentioned.
It is a little off base from my initial post about the math and actual profits, but is consistent with my comments on market sweet spots and a group of people just not caring about the numbers so long as their ISK goes up. One person's "fuzzy math" is another person's source for profit.
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tehsuxOr
Poor Old Ornery nOObs
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Posted - 2010.03.11 17:47:00 -
[24]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Dr Caymus The cost of a Deimos at ME 0 is about 65 million ISK, so BPO holders are enjoying handsome profits. There is just not enogh sales volume in the Deimos to make it an attractive product to the inventor.
You know it has to go here.....
Time to get rid of the T2 BPOs. I've heard tell that it takes about 2 years of constant use to earn back the cost you'll pay for a T2 BPO on auction.
Lol you need to do some calculator work, most will sell for 3 years up to 5 years worth. Not to mention this would screw every owner. Because after that time period would be up they would simply get their isk back. The point of owning a BPO is to make isk off of it until you sell it down the line. So what you are saying is I buy a BPO for 50b isk, 2-5 years down the line I get my isk back. So what was the point of investing aka wasting 50b isk to simply get it back trhough 2-5 years of work.
Get a clue lol.
When will you realise that almost every owner out there has bought their BPO from another player, and very few are original lottery owners.
Supply and deman ppl. If the supply is too high your margins are going to be crap. Which is clearly already the case with MOST t2 ship bpos. Not like it was back in teh day, where there was a limited amunt of high end ships to buy, there is a lot of variety nowadays.
And just because somebody is selling a product on the market doesnt mean they are the rpoducer, in fact most fo teh time it`s simply a re-seller, so they will drive the inventors and builders profits way down. So you are pointing your finger at the wrong person, and here`s a hint, the re-sellers don`t care if they are making you broke, because they are making isk and that`s what they car about, not your whines.
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Aglarond
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Posted - 2010.03.11 18:07:00 -
[25]
T2 BPO's are the savings bonds of EVE. Abandon hope for the Caldari Race.
It's always a bitter moment when something gets nerfed. Not because CCP decided something genuinely needed an adjustment, but because somewhere some whiner is g |
LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.03.11 18:10:00 -
[26]
Originally by: tehsuxOr Not to mention this would screw every owner. Because after that time period would be up they would simply get their isk back. The point of owning a BPO is to make isk off of it until you sell it down the line.
People get screwed all the time. Small rigs come out at 1/25th the materials of a large, and anyone with small rigged ships get screwed. The LP price of faction ships drops at FW mission corps, and anyone that already owns those ships gets screwed as the price drops. ABC belts are drastically increased, and the people that hold 0.0 systems are screwed as high end ore prices drop. CCP changes the material requirements of T2 modules and the people holding the moons that were the previous bottleneck are screwed.
The T2 BPOs screw anyone coming into the game as a noob as they have virtually no chance of getting one. Their ability to do T2 manufacturing is greatly diminished because they can't compete on price.
Someone is always getting screwed.... and no one wants it to be them.
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tehsuxOr
Poor Old Ornery nOObs
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Posted - 2010.03.11 18:27:00 -
[27]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: tehsuxOr Not to mention this would screw every owner. Because after that time period would be up they would simply get their isk back. The point of owning a BPO is to make isk off of it until you sell it down the line.
The T2 BPOs screw anyone coming into the game as a noob as they have virtually no chance of getting one.
It takes about 1-2b isk to own a T2 BPO, surely that`s impossible to acheive.
You are right, every noob should be given a hulk BPO as soon as they sign up, there should be no rewards for those players that grind and play for years to gather wealth to invest in a BPO.
You know what i also believe titans cost too much as I cant afford one 1 week into the game. Surely they should be nerfed. The skill requirements shuld also be lowered, to racial frig 2.
Rewards for players that invest time and energy into eve is stupid right?
Invention controlls the t2 module market, t2 bpos control most of the T2 ship market. Why? suply and demand.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.03.11 18:47:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 11/03/2010 18:47:48
Quote: The T2 BPOs screw anyone coming into the game as a noob as they have virtually no chance of getting one. Their ability to do T2 manufacturing is greatly diminished because they can't compete on price.
boohoo
mommy.....
Boohoo
gtf outta here. |
tehsuxOr
Poor Old Ornery nOObs
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Posted - 2010.03.11 19:02:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Jovialmadness Edited by: Jovialmadness on 11/03/2010 18:47:48
Quote: The T2 BPOs screw anyone coming into the game as a noob as they have virtually no chance of getting one. Their ability to do T2 manufacturing is greatly diminished because they can't compete on price.
boohoo
mommy.....
Boohoo
gtf outta here.
Agreed. They should make a forum for whining.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.03.11 21:27:00 -
[30]
Originally by: tehsuxOr It takes about 1-2b isk to own a T2 BPO, surely that`s impossible to acheive.
A lame one maybe, but not a set I would want to build in bulk continuously. To compete with the established mega alliances would require the assets of a mega alliance.
Originally by: tehsuxOr
You are right, every noob should be given a hulk BPO as soon as they sign up,
You can tell when someone doesn't have a quality counter-argument when they do things like straw manning.
Noobs should not be given a Hulk BPO. They should have to grind for money to get a POS, to fuel the POS, to get a BPO, to get datacores, decryptors, BPCs... lots and lots of research skills. Then run research jobs to get BPCs.
And when they get those BPCs, be competing with others that have had to do the same. There should not be a select few individuals able to undercut all others simply because they have one of the ubber rare T2 BPC.
Noobs should get a level playing field to know that with enough time and effort they will be able to compete. As is, with T2 BPOs, not going to happen.
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