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~~~~Outpost Investment Fund~~~~~~

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Traveler30	Posted - 2010.03.11 15:48:00 - [1] Ok I'm a bit new to this so I'm going to ask a few questions as to how I would go about this and what you as investors would want to know and see in a project like this so I can put together a more formal plan. I am looking to raise capital to place an outpost in a region of space that presently does not have very many outpost so the demand and need for one is rather high. My outpost would also be fully owned by my corp but would be under the full protection of one of the Top 10 alliances in the game so safety of the outpost or posibility of it being taken over is minimal. I am looking at building either a Gallente outpost or a Minmatar refinary. My goal would be to do at least one full round of upgrades on the outpost so I am looking at about 40 Billion isk give or take a couple Billion. The region the outpost would be in has about 3,000 pilots regularly operating in it though that number is going to increase as more people move in and as new outpost are built. My question to you as an investor is what would you look for in collatoral? I had thought about issuing corp stock and selling the stock at a set price to raise the isk needed for the outpost but since I am asking you to invest your isk in my plan I would like to know from you as the investor what it is you'd be looking for? Do you feel that 100 Mil per share is a good price or should it be 150 Mil per share? What would be a good rate of return on your investment? 5% a month or 7%? Should I set a time table for when investors can sell their shares back to the corp and if so how long out should I make an investor have to hold onto their shares? Please if you have other ideas of how to make this kind of fund work better please let me know. I am in the pre-development stage of doing this and am open to ideas and suggestions. And yes I'm using an alt for the moment till I figure out how I want to go about doing this as I do not want to put my corp at risk till I have a solid plan in place.
Cyaxares II Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.03.11 16:08:00 - [2] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 11/03/2010 16:08:33 It won't work because () big alliances have shown a lack of dedication to guarantee defaults/scams by related corporations (KIA, I am looking at you) and frankly don't have any need for a positive MD rep. Scamming MD for a new outputs would only result in some lulz in COAD and no big hit of reputation for many of them. () there is probably no good way to answer the question "why do you not raise funding within your alliance?" followed by either "why should MD trust you, if your own alliance doesn't?" or "if your alliance lacks the funding to construct the outpost, how can it guarantee its defence?" (*) Big alliances have shown a tendency towards folding surprisingly fast.
flakeys Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.03.11 16:16:00 - [3] Unless with 100% collateral held by one of the 'known boys' in here i would not touch this even if the interest rate was 15%.
Traveler30	Posted - 2010.03.11 16:16:00 - [4] Well in time my corp probably would be able to come up with the isk through moon mining and running a lot of corp ops but presently that would take us about 6 or 7 months to come up with that kind of isk. That being said I think doing an IPO to generate the isk we need would work out better and get things jump started. The thing to remember with the recent sov changes is taking a system or station is not as easy as it used to be. It still can be done of course but it is a lot larger under taking and one that requires a lot more time because of the way the TCU's and I-Hubs work. I do feel with a certain degree of certainty that our outpost would not be stolen from us. It may get camped from time to time like any other 0.0 space outpost but I am no fear of it being taken over. I know others have done IPO's to raise capital for outpost and I was curious to know what you as the investors thought about it as well.
Dzil Alt Caldari StrwBerry Pancakes	Posted - 2010.03.11 16:30:00 - [5] Quote: I am looking to raise capital to place an outpost in a region of space that presently does not have very many outpost so the demand and need for one is rather high. I'll leave the rest of your questions alone - suffice it to say the waffling on interest rates/capital to raise suggests you don't really have a plan that needs money, you have a need for money that's searching for a plan. I'd recognize this is just a Q&A post but strongly recommend getting the horse in front of the cart before this reaches the stage of a formal offering. But I did want to hit this quoted point: you suggest a region of space lacks outposts, therefore there is a high demand for one. In my experience, this is rarely truly the case. Rather, the absense of supply is often indicative of an absense of demand. What besides the lack of outposts in the region leads you to believe there is a high demand for one in your targetted location?
Traveler30	Posted - 2010.03.11 16:39:00 - [6] Again this really is more of a question and answer I guess because if I was to put together a formal plan to be presented to raise isk I would have a lot more details. Right now I am merely formulating the ideas and suggestions and then will put together a solid plan for review. The particular region I am looking to put the outpost in has a about 5 outpost in it already. The problem is all of the outpost are in the lower half of the region leaving the rest of the region with no outpost at all forcing people to work out of POS's and or travel between 10 and 15 jumps to reach a station. The locaiton of the outpost I want to build is centrally located along several highly traveled routes that have on average 500+ jumps per day but are 10 or more jumps from the nearest station. This would mean my station would be centrally located and could in time become a rather large trading hub. If I choose to place a gallente outpost chances are I could have most of the offices rented fairly quickly as my station would the closest station to the rest of the region in comparison to the other outpost. I do firmly believe that my outpost would become a nice trading hub in the region and would become rented out rather quickly. All of this economic activity of course means it will generate steady isk.
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2010.03.11 16:45:00 - [7] Originally by: Traveler30 that would take us about 6 or 7 months to come up with that kind of isk. You've got to be kidding. 6 to 7 months is way too long for a 0.0 corp to sc** together that kind of isk. If that statement is true, your corp is crap and you should look for another one. Free jumpclone service**\|924 stations - Truly Universal
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente SRS Industries SRS.	Posted - 2010.03.11 16:53:00 - [8] I don't understand... one of my old 0.0 corp's player's (not the corporation as a whole) could've funded an entire outpost... why can't your corp afford this? --------------------------------- Regarding high-sec mining: Originally by: AmarrettoDiAmarr 3-4 million ISK/hr is perhaps .15 0r .20 US$/hr; not quite prison wages and you are around less honest people.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.03.11 17:16:00 - [9] Building an outpost is not exactly a big cost, even the BPOs are cheap in comparison to other large Alliance sized objects. Between 25B and 28B ISK off a spreadsheet I built about three years ago, that's including the BPO in the cost. This isn't exactly a big cost in todays ISK standard. Amarr for Life
Traveler30	Posted - 2010.03.11 17:17:00 - [10] The corp in time can afford this. I am looking at ways though of doing this a bit faster than spending the next 6 months saving. My corp presently has about 2.5 Bil a month in static fees such as sov fees to CCP and POS fuel for our moon mining operations. The corp as a whole earns about 6 Bil a month which presently is not to bad. I could ask for player donations inside the corp but I am wanting to run this more like any other business. Perhaps people are just miss understanding what I am asking. I am not looking for investors right now. I am merely asking your thoughts on an investment idea of an outpost.

flakeys Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.03.11 17:17:00 - [11] Your corp is Gangrel Mining and Security and you are in high treason alliance. You have a few systems in insmother so i guess you are atlas renters.Am i assuming correctly you are renters and you want to place it in insmother?
Jadun	Posted - 2010.03.11 17:28:00 - [12] yo ho I am highly intrested to hear your resons why your allianz doesnot sponser your project. + Why do you believe that you could even raise any isk on these forums without any security for investors.
Traveler30	Posted - 2010.03.11 17:31:00 - [13] Well that is my big question though. What type or form of security would you as an investor want or need? Is it corp stock? An alt in the corp with junior accounting access? This is what I'm really after. As for why not have the alliance sponsor an effort like this...simple. I want my corp to own it and make the profit from it. Of course we would pay out a dividend to our investors but I want to own it.
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente SRS Industries SRS.	Posted - 2010.03.11 17:44:00 - [14] Edited by: Dethmourne Silvermane on 11/03/2010 17:46:16 There is really no efficient means of collateralizing this, from your corp's standpoint, unless you guys have somewhere in the 30-40b range worth of BPOs that you're willing to hand over until principal is paid back, and said BPOs would have to be in highsec. EDIT: Corp stock is worthless as security (corp stock doesn't -do- anything if you default). An alt with junior accountant role is worthless as security (and could be kicked out easily). Investors in a high-risk venture (unknown name to MD, 0.0, extremely large value) are looking for hard assets (e.g. blueprints, ships, etc) in an amount equal to or greater than the amount you're asking for which can be held by a third party (e.g. cosmoray) until such time as the loan is paid off (as I assume you're discussing a loan/bond, rather than an IPO). --------------------------------- Regarding high-sec mining: Originally by: AmarrettoDiAmarr 3-4 million ISK/hr is perhaps .15 0r .20 US$/hr; not quite prison wages and you are around less honest people.
Llu	Posted - 2010.03.11 18:00:00 - [15] Edited by: Llu on 11/03/2010 18:02:26 Old BoB was arguably one of the best alliances in the game and lost several outposts, so did NC, ISS under protection of MC the most feared Merc alliance etc. In short taking stations is not only as easy as before but there is no way in the seven seas you can claim it is safe. The big alliance you talk about could decide to kick you out tomorrow and you have no way of stopping that. This of course is excluding the fact of docking rights issues etc. In short I would not consider investing this with a 20% rate short of full collateral and I've got very very low requirements to do a investment (by MD standards).
Cyaxares II Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.03.11 18:29:00 - [16] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 11/03/2010 18:30:32 Originally by: Traveler30 As for why not have the alliance sponsor an effort like this...simple. I want my corp to own it and make the profit from it. Of course we would pay out a dividend to our investors but I want to own it. Ultimately ownership is defined by having the means to defend one's ownership claim. Assume you build your outpost and your alliance decides that another corp would be better at managing it, your claim at ownership would be ridiculous as you have no reasonable means to back it up by force. No matter what your diplomats might say, your alliance will factually own that outpost because they have both the power to take it any time they wish and the power to defend it from 3rd parties. As such you should at the very least fund it by taking out loans within the alliance (this strategy would at least make sure that you get to keep the outpost until you have paid back the loans).
Traveler30	Posted - 2010.03.11 19:04:00 - [17] Dethmourne Silvermane I think you gave me the best answer to my question and for that I thank you. This is the type of information I was really looking for and will now help me with making a decision on how I would like to go about doing something like this.
Frenden Dax Dax Acquisitions	Posted - 2010.03.11 20:30:00 - [18] I'll hit the main point first. No one in their right mind would invest in you anyways without 100% collateral, and that's the bottom line. The risk factor here is gigantic. In terms of 'top 10 alliances', 'protected' and other nonsense, that's a joke. Any space can be conquered, and most of it has been. Great recent example is Fountain/Delve/Querious. PL/SOT owned Fountain, Goons had Delve and Querious (and some other areas). In the space of a couple months Fountain has been conquered and Goons have disbanded and bailed to Syndicate. The Goons are now invading Cloud Ring and smashing Evoke. If your corp lives in 0.0 and can't come up with 25B-30B on your own, frankly speaking you have no business owning an outpost. Sounds cruel to say it but any decent 0.0 corp should be able to generate that sum of money without difficulty. Consider: if you have 100 active members and everyone donates 200m, that's 20B right there. You can make 200m in two or three days of ratting. Corp stock is completely worthless as collateral. If your corp would be at risk by you posting on your main, then your security is not as good as you make it out to be.


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