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Veyreuth	Posted - 2010.03.11 20:28:00 - [1] I've only been playing a few weeks, so this is all very new to me. I've been told there's skills you can learn to improve your learning. I have the "learning" skill up to rank IV. I imagine it's an important skill to get up to rank V ASAP... for a new pilot, what other learning skills should I target to improve the speed that I learn other new skills? Thanks!!
Horchan Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.11 20:31:00 - [2] All of them. --- DesuSigs
Veyreuth	Posted - 2010.03.11 20:41:00 - [3] Originally by: Horchan All of them. So are you saying as a new pilot I should make all "learning" skills my #1 priority, or that it's important to keep picking away at "learning" skills as I learn spaceship command skills, industry skills, etc? To clarify my question.... which "learning" skills should I get before I research any other type of skills?
Liquidium Internet Spaceship Gamers Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2010.03.11 20:43:00 - [4] Edited by: Liquidium on 11/03/2010 20:43:10 All of them to 4. At least. Linkage
Missm Uppet	Posted - 2010.03.11 20:43:00 - [5] The standard progression is to learn all of the basic/cheap skills to level 4. This unlocks the advanced skills. Learn each of these to 4, then go back and learn the basic skills to 5 (this includes the "Learning" skill). Then, if you really want to, train the advanced learning skills to 5, although many people don't do this as the extra time it takes won't be repaid for 2-3 years I think. Learn the Memory and Intel boosting skills first as they make the other basic skills go faster. Learn the Cybernetics skill up a few levels so that you can fit attribute implants, which increase your attributes and thus your learning speed. That's the basics.
Missm Uppet	Posted - 2010.03.11 20:50:00 - [6] Originally by: Veyreuth Originally by: Horchan All of them. So are you saying as a new pilot I should make all "learning" skills my #1 priority, or that it's important to keep picking away at "learning" skills as I learn spaceship command skills, industry skills, etc? To clarify my question.... which "learning" skills should I get before I research any other type of skills? IMO you should not train learning skills exclusively. Plan on getting them all up over the course of a month or two. Focus on skills for ships, weapons, and other stuff along with learning the learning skills - that way you can do things, make isk, and learn/enjoy the game at the same time.
Abby Aden Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.03.11 20:57:00 - [7] Edited by: Abby Aden on 11/03/2010 20:58:21 Edited by: Abby Aden on 11/03/2010 20:58:04 Download a program called EVEMon. Use that to setup what you want to train for a week or so, and then adjust your attributes and see how much time it saves. It's a great way to familiarize yourself with how the whole skill training system works.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.11 21:11:00 - [8] Edited by: Tippia on 11/03/2010 21:11:49 Cybernetics. The best 750 SP you'll ever train. You probably won't have the ISK to fully take advantage of it right away, but you will soon enough to make a difference. Also, if you ever see anyone claiming that "train basics to 5 and advanced to 4 immediately or diiiiie", you need to pod them repeatedly for the kind of newbie griefing they engage in. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Madison II	Posted - 2010.03.11 21:34:00 - [9] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 11/03/2010 21:11:49 Cybernetics. The best 750 SP you'll ever train. You probably won't have the ISK to fully take advantage of it right away, but you will soon enough to make a difference. Also, if you ever see anyone claiming that "train basics to 5 and advanced to 4 immediately or diiiiie", you need to pod them repeatedly for the kind of newbie griefing they engage in. Im sitting on... 40m SP and only have basics and advanced to 4. Hell even learning is still 4. But yes, cybernetics is the best ever.
Jagga Spikes Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2010.03.11 23:12:00 - [10] Cybernetics 1 is golden. as for the rest: get basics to 3. this will give you quite a boost. advanced learning costs ISK. if you have it, you might consider getting basics to 4 and advanced to 3. rule of thumb: when other skills start getting longer than learning, do learning. the key is to find your own balance of learning and other skills. learning is good, but pays off only after a while. other skills give more immediate effects. regarding "rank": rank is a skill difficulty and does not change. skills improve in levels. i know i mixed the two when i started. ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel
MsValentineWiggin	Posted - 2010.03.12 00:16:00 - [11] There are two schools of thought on this with vocal proponents. If you are only going to play for the free 21 days, then you probably should not train [m]any. If it is an alt or you are very patient, you will be further along in a year or two if you spend the first two months training nothing but learning skills. Starting a 2 month plan of learning and quitting EVE halfway through due to boredom is not a success. The math is clear. It's a question of your time horizon and your personality and how you value short term gratification versus long-term investment.
Elbie Klep	Posted - 2010.03.12 05:01:00 - [12] Others have suggested the order. There is an optimum order in one of the earliest threads of this forum that will get them all to L5 in about 60 days. In practice, though, you will come close simply by skilling the one that will take the least time at the moment. But you need all of them ASAP. They make a huge difference in how quickly you advance in the game. When I originally started my main roughly split time between learning skills and other skills. After three months I opened a second account. The main for that account spent the first two months doing nothing but maxing all learning skills. A little over two months after that the second account's main passed the first account, which was only at L4 in most learning skills by that time, in total skills. So in four months total skill time the second account passed the first account that had seven months of skill time. It is tough to pay CCP for two months while doing nothing but surfing the forums. But I would absolutely do it for a second account and knowing what I know now I would seriously consider it for a first account. [The time is not lost. You can learn a lot about the game and make lots of contacts in that two months through forums and chat.] However, if you can't bring yourself to do nothing but learning skills initially, I would strongly advise at least splitting your learning time equally between learning skils and "useful" skills. I would do it systematically (e.g., 12 AM - 12 PM is learning while 12 PM - 12 AM is other skills) because it is always very tempting to defer the learning skill so you can get the next neat ship faster.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.03.12 12:50:00 - [13] The main argument against training all learnings to level 5 at the start is that by the time you see a net profit in non-learning SP, you'll have so many SP that you just wont really care about getting a marginally higher rate. Conversely, you'll be hugely disadvantaged early on, right at the stage when every rank of every skill is important to you. So training all to level 5 early on hinders you when you need the skills the most and benefits you when it will help you the least.
RaTTuS BIG Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.03.12 13:01:00 - [14] Cyber 1 - plug in +3's [if you can afford them] then do memory , int and learning to 4 then do advanced learnings to 4 then do the others however don't do this if this is your main [and only] character , just get to 4/4/4 train some skills to level 1 or 2 or 3 so you can use stuff and fly the basic missions, and learn the game - there is no need to max learnings until you know what your doing and know your going to be playing this character after 3 more years of learning ... -- \| Capital
Kessiaan Minmatar Vagrants Inc	Posted - 2010.03.12 13:26:00 - [15] If it's an alt, yes train learning right away. On your main though, it's more important to train skills that you need to actually play the game. I ran with the basics at 4 and the advanced at 3 for my first year playing this game. Only when I knew I could stop training for a month and not care did I finally bump them up to 5/4. And yes Cybernetics is great - train it 1, get the best learning implant set you can afford (just don't go pvp in it until you have spares), makes a huge difference.
Elbie Klep	Posted - 2010.03.13 04:25:00 - [16] Originally by: Malcanis The main argument against training all learnings to level 5 at the start is that by the time you see a net profit in non-learning SP, you'll have so many SP that you just wont really care about getting a marginally higher rate. Conversely, you'll be hugely disadvantaged early on, right at the stage when every rank of every skill is important to you. So training all to level 5 early on hinders you when you need the skills the most and benefits you when it will help you the least. Sorry, but I don't follow this logic at all. Yes, you effectively pay CCP two months of turn fees before you can actually play the game. But once you do start playing the game the speed at which you learn the "useful" skills will be greatly accelerated compared to your peers. So every skill you acquire subseqently will come faster and overall you will pass anyone who didn't do all learning skills first within a couple of months. That, in turn, translates into better ships, faster growth in wealth, and/or more PvP success. So unless you are planning to quit the game after 4 months, you will be far better off. Perhaps more to the point, the first six months of mining, ratting, and mission running in EVE is your least productive time because your skills are so low. So you want to get past that low-skill period as fast as possible. After you have been in EVE for six months your position should be very much better off if the first two months were spent maxing out learning skills compared to anyone who spreads those skills out over the entire six months. In addition, they will never catch up. Once they max their learning skills they will learn at the same rate but you will already have more skills than they have and that gap will remain for the entire game. So a year later when they are skilling heavy missiles you will be skilling cruise specialization. So you will not be better off just after the first six months; you will be better off for the rest of the game. It is true that once your peers have also maxed the skill gap becomes fixed and it becomes a decreasing fraction of your total skills. But EVE is a skill-based economic simulation so everything you do depends on the quality of your skills, especially increasing your wealth. Thus you will have a small advantage in every wealth-building activity (e.g., you will run missions faster). That ensures that your wealth will continue to grow faster than your peers' throughout your career and small differences snowball over time into big differences. If it is a secondary character, it is a no-brainer because you get to play your first avatar while it is just sitting doing learnign skills. If it's your first character, then just think of it as an entry fee. You will probably get more out of surfing forums and chat full time for two months than frigate mining and ratting with poor skills.
Takseen	Posted - 2010.03.13 17:56:00 - [17] Originally by: Elbie Klep If it's your first character, then just think of it as an entry fee. You will probably get more out of surfing forums and chat full time for two months than frigate mining and ratting with poor skills. 1) I think one of the developers mentioned in a Fanfest 09 presentation that he bought his account and played Counterstrike for two months while getting his learning skills maxed. 2) Its clearly a terrible terrible system and said developer agrees, but he can't figure out a way to fix it that won't **** various people off.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.13 18:06:00 - [18] Originally by: Elbie Klep once you do start playing the game the speed at which you learn the "useful" skills will be greatly accelerated compared to your peers. So every skill you acquire subseqently will come faster and overall you will pass anyone who didn't do all learning skills first within a couple of months. That, in turn, translates into better ships, faster growth in wealth, and/or more PvP success. So unless you are planning to quit the game after 4 months, you will be far better off. That's just it: it's not a matter of months, but of years. By then, you won't learn much faster than your peers because they will have trained the same skills as you. You may end up having more total SP than they do, but that's about it… and total SP is an almost entirely useless thing to have. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Elbie Klep	Posted - 2010.03.13 18:25:00 - [19] Originally by: Tippia That's just it: it's not a matter of months, but of years. By then, you won't learn much faster than your peers because they will have trained the same skills as you. You may end up having more total SP than they do, but that's about ità and total SP is an almost entirely useless thing to have. Au contraire. Until your peers have maxed their learning skills, you will continue to gain skills over them. How much you gain just depends on how long it takes them to max their learning skills. If they do it in 4 months, it will be a smallish difference; if they do it in two years, it will be a huge difference. Once they max their learning skills the difference will, indeed, remain constant for the rest of the game (ignoring implants, etc.) and will represent a smaller fraction of overall skills as time passes. But you still increase your overall advantage in the game. That's because your skill advantage, however small it might be, contributes to your cumulative wealth and power. Every day that small advantage gives you a bigger increase in game wealth (however you measure it) and it accumulates over time, much like compound interest. So the longer you and your peers are in the game after maxing learning skills, the bigger your advantages on the economic side.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.13 18:35:00 - [20] Originally by: Elbie Klep Au contraire. Until your peers have maxed their learning skills, you will continue to gain skills over them. How much you gain just depends on how long it takes them to max their learning skills. If they do it in 4 months, it will be a smallish difference; if they do it in two years, it will be a huge difference. Yes, but the difference is only in the useless measure of total SP. Quote: Every day that small advantage gives you a bigger increase in game wealth (however you measure it) and it accumulates over time, much like compound interest. …which works both ways: since you're several years behind them in terms of useful SP, you're starting out fighint an uphill battle. They can keep eaning from their skills while they finish off those last attribute points. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Elbie Klep	Posted - 2010.03.13 18:45:00 - [21] Originally by: Takseen 2) Its clearly a terrible terrible system and said developer agrees, but he can't figure out a way to fix it that won't **** various people off. I agree. I don't like skill based games in general because they make the gap between new player and experienced player increase for every year the game is around. Back when a CR was the biggest ship in the game the gap wan't so big. But today players are running around in expendable capships while the new player can still only drive a frigate with a Miner I. And I particularly don't like the learning skills. They probably seemed like a good idea at the time, but in practice they lead directly directly to the silliness of doing nothing for your first two months in the game. IMO CCP should increase the learning skills each new player gets initially by one level every six months of RL calendar time until at least the basic learning skills are L5 for every new player so they can learn something useful quickly. Spreading it over 2-1/2 years should not bother the players who did it the hard way years previously. It would also help to narrow the gap between new and old players.
Elbie Klep	Posted - 2010.03.13 19:06:00 - [22] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 13/03/2010 18:37:00àwhich works both ways: since you're several years behind them in terms of useful SP, you're starting out fighint an uphill battle. They can keep eaning from their skills while they finish off those last attribute points. They will have earned the ISK to get the high-end implants much sooner than you did, since you had nothing useful for ages and instead just AFK:ed learning skills. That time of complete inactivity you spend early on also creates "compound interest", and not in your favourà You are not years behind them. I've done this. If they are doing learning half time you will be completely caught up in the non-learning skills after three months. If they devote less time to learning skills you will catch up even faster. You have a point that they will have a 2-month nest egg of earnings and compound interest applies to that as well. But at the level of earnings of a new player it just doesn't matter. The character that maxed first will still get to implants and whatnot faster. Been there and done that with essentially identical characters doing the same thing. Three years later the character that maxed first is giving the other one money.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.13 19:42:00 - [23] Originally by: Elbie Klep You are not years behind them. I've done this. If they are doing learning half time you will be completely caught up in the non-learning skills after three months. 5/5 over 5/4 requires 624,235 SP. You will earn 1 SP/minute more than they do in relevant skills. This means it takes 624,235 minutes before you've earned back the time and SP it took to get that last level and start pulling ahead in terms of useful SP. 624,235 minutes is 10,403 hours or 433 days. 5/5 over 4/3 takes 221 days to earn back. 5/4 over 4/3 takes 112 days to earn back. And that's if you only train the primary attribute. Go for the secondary as well, and it's 585, 295 and 149 days, respectively. So no, you have not caught up after 3 months. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
ChrisIsherwood	Posted - 2010.03.13 23:17:00 - [24] You should do what makes you happiest. Personally, I do not see starting a game that is skill-dirven and not take skills seriously. To those who say total SP doesn't matter: I find that a marketplace will provide more insight than opinions. Look at the Character Forum. Virtually every WTA/WTS subject line lists the total SP. Naturally, FOTM PVP toons sell better than Mining toons, and that is even before the SiSI insurance changes. But still, people are using real money to buy PLEXes, or spending ISK they could use to avoid subscription fees, to buy and sell characters. It sure seems like total SP affects the value of a toon. The people who make a market in toons could tell you far better than I what the price is (and like everything else in EVE, why it was better in the past ) but my tiny sample showed higher SP toons going for about 200-300 ISK/SP. E.g. you could spend 60 * US$35 and buy a 90 million SP character. Or with good learning skills you could have 90m SP in 1,500 days. ( Or join us in the land of cognitive dissonance and decide that SP is not important to you. ) tl:dr; there is a marketplace where you can see facts, actual numbers, as to much EVE players currently value SP.
Clementina Eye of God Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.03.14 03:33:00 - [25] If you are a neophyte with a new character, the skill that you want to train depends on if you are logged on or not. If you are logged on you want to train the shortest possible skill that you see a use for, learning or not. Basically something that will ding while you are still logged on. You'll have more fun. When you are logged out, train something that will continue training until you log back on again. You will feel the joy of finishing that day long skill or whatever without having to really spend time waiting for it. Once you have frigate flying 3 and skills to use warp disruptors and microwarpdrives and whatever, then start worrying about learning versus something else.
Elbie Klep	Posted - 2010.03.14 03:48:00 - [26] Originally by: Tippia 5/5 over 5/4 requires 624,235 SP. You will earn 1 SP/minute more than they do in relevant skills. This means it takes 624,235 minutes before you've earned back the time and SP it took to get that last level and start pulling ahead in terms of useful SP. 624,235 minutes is 10,403 hours or 433 days. 5/5 over 4/3 takes 221 days to earn back. 5/4 over 4/3 takes 112 days to earn back. And that's if you only train the primary attribute. Go for the secondary as well, and it's 585, 295 and 149 days, respectively. So no, you have not caught up after 3 months. You can throw out all the obscure calculations you want but I'm not going to try to figure out where they went wrong. That's because, as my original post indicated, I have reality on my side -- I actually did it.
Galstab McGee	Posted - 2010.03.14 21:07:00 - [27] Originally by: Elbie Klep Originally by: Tippia 5/5 over 5/4 requires 624,235 SP. You will earn 1 SP/minute more than they do in relevant skills. This means it takes 624,235 minutes before you've earned back the time and SP it took to get that last level and start pulling ahead in terms of useful SP. 624,235 minutes is 10,403 hours or 433 days. 5/5 over 4/3 takes 221 days to earn back. 5/4 over 4/3 takes 112 days to earn back. And that's if you only train the primary attribute. Go for the secondary as well, and it's 585, 295 and 149 days, respectively. So no, you have not caught up after 3 months. You can throw out all the obscure calculations you want but I'm not going to try to figure out where they went wrong. That's because, as my original post indicated, I have reality on my side -- I actually did it. My experience has been to the contrary. I havent maxed everything out but have been using evemon to help plan for best learning for specific things, on a 250 day skill plan it gives me suggestions for 5/4 on relevant learning skills. I put 5/5 for both attributes in the list and it went up by more than 10 days, so at 8 months of training I'll still finish this plan faster with skills at 5/4. Total SP will be higher, but the completion of the actual non-learning skills will be delayed. Although, as I don't plan to stop with that plan, there is still, as you point out, benefit to getting them all maxed out over time, just longer time than you posts suggest.
Baneken Gallente Aseveljet	Posted - 2010.03.14 22:22:00 - [28] Or to put it this way: I currently have about 25mil in SP and +4 implants and learning skills 3/4 and learning V. Training any learning skill to 4/5 now would benefit me for about 7minutes in 180days or a whopping 1 week from a 2-3 years long skill plan.
Baneken Gallente Aseveljet	Posted - 2010.03.14 22:26:00 - [29] Originally by: Elbie Klep You can throw out all the obscure calculations you want but I'm not going to try to figure out where they went wrong. That's because, as my original post indicated, I have reality on my side -- I actually did it. Simple you learn 2x rate now (up to 1,6mil IIRC) hence it makes sense to read all the learning as a new character first since they pay up 2x fast as they do for older chars (who learned/learns them regular rate).
Galstab McGee	Posted - 2010.03.14 22:41:00 - [30] Originally by: Baneken Originally by: Elbie Klep You can throw out all the obscure calculations you want but I'm not going to try to figure out where they went wrong. That's because, as my original post indicated, I have reality on my side -- I actually did it. Simple you learn 2x rate now (up to 1,6mil IIRC) hence it makes sense to read all the learning as a new character first since they pay up 2x fast as they do for older chars (who learned/learns them regular rate). IIRC getting all the skills to 4/4 puts you past your 1.6 m limit, or atleast close to it, and even then, It just seems like no one would get into the game to pay to do nothing for a month and a half to get them all to 5/5 from the start, alts aside. You are going to eat the bulk of the time at normal speed either way.

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