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HACs: pointless waste of money?

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Ghoest	Posted - 2010.03.14 16:36:00 - [31] Originally by: NoNah This is why they require more skills. By the time you're ready to fly one, you should have grasped what that tenth situation is, and be able to repeat it over and over and over again. It doesn't matter if another ship would've won if the conditions were different, as long as you dictate the conditions. That may be true on one or 3 on 3 but in fleets it isnt. I still think a HAC fleet vs an equally skilled and equipped BC fleet has an advantage but its more of an average thing not something that can be leveraged into a big advanatge. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Ghoest	Posted - 2010.03.14 16:44:00 - [32] Originally by: Shad0w Hawk Why fly hacs when you can fly bcs? Why fly bcs when you can fly bs? Why fly bs when you can fly dreads? Size, agility, speed and gtfo ability is the answer to your question. This is false. BCs can be equipped to fit a niche with probably 90% overlap with HACs. BCs are a little tougher little less agile. They use the same weapons and have the same damage as HACs overall. Wherever you went - Here you are.
achoura	Posted - 2010.03.14 17:03:00 - [33] Originally by: Izzybella A well fit BC will beat them 9/10 times A well piloted hac will kill them 9/10. *The EVE servers and their patches*
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.14 17:22:00 - [34] Currently the only hacs really worth it are sniper hacs. BC's cant compete with them in that type of gang. Other than that hacs are nothing special.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Punic Corp.	Posted - 2010.03.14 19:44:00 - [35] There's only three things Heavy Assaults have going for them, and one of those things only apply to some of them. That is: speed, agility, and range Problem is, speed and agility doesn't count for quite as much as it used to, and only some of them have range bonuses. In every other way, battlecruisers are equal or superior, and they are a hell of a lot cheaper. I think it's just the fact that the heavy assault ships are more expensive and need more character skill training that makes people think that they somehow must be better. ----- 'In Eve, as in real life, if you are bored it's your own fault.'
Noisrevbus Caldari Breams Gone Wild	Posted - 2010.03.14 20:33:00 - [36] Originally by: Reem Fairchild There's only three things Heavy Assaults have going for them, and one of those things only apply to some of them. That is: speed, agility, and range Problem is, speed and agility doesn't count for quite as much as it used to, and only some of them have range bonuses. In every other way, battlecruisers are equal or superior, and they are a hell of a lot cheaper. I think it's just the fact that the heavy assault ships are more expensive and need more character skill training that makes people think that they somehow must be better. This, in essence. There are a couple of other things, but Reem is onto something here. Most of the things the HAC have going for itself are small details, situational or in other ways diffuse. That's the best way to sum it up, the advantages are diffuse. Other things not yet included are resists over buffer in what make up the EHP, and signature out of it. They fall under the same conditions where they are not always concrete, not easily measurable, can sometimes be situational or at other times details overlooked in the transition from theory to practise. In any situation with active or remote repairs though, on two ships with similar EHP, having a larger part of that attributed to your resistances will be an advantage. Mitigation (indirectly-) increase the relative value of repair you recieve (while volume do not). Signature may have very little impact on effective damage in some situations, but make a substantial difference in other situations. Especially when roaming since your control over any adaptation to what you face is limited. You have your gang, it needs to be flexible and you need to have a plan on how to deal with anything thrown at you. Someone might say that fighting Battleships with HACs is a poor idea, and that you simply shouldn't do that so signature won't matter. If instead, you are forced to deal with Battleships for whatever reason, the HACs will begin to enjoy some advantages over a BC gang. Wether that is range, speed, agility, nominal amount repaired or the contribution of a lower signature (both in terms of tanking, and targetting). One of the most common problems on this forum is that people make up straight comparison. They compare HAC to BC and BC to HAC, without looking at the larger picture where HAC deal better with both larger (mitigate, escape) and smaller ships (isloate, catch). What the BC have going for them is primarily the price, and how the adaptation is usually near enough. That's not to be mistaken with BC being better or even as good though. They are not just that far behind to warrant the difference in price for alot of players/groups. Some of them put the advantage to good use though and the price may be well worth it. BC are never so far behind that they fall out of the role they are supposed to carry out though. Then, as some other people have pointed out - there are some HACs that carry out their role better than other. That's what you tend to call balance and the ships that don't carry out their role very well might be a subject for future improvement (often those ships that have little to nothing over similarily bonused BC).
Horeta	Posted - 2010.03.15 11:55:00 - [37] it always depends on situation. sniper hacs have flexibility to pickup fights they can win, and avoid the rest. bc's are much more cheaper, bub have lower flexibility to choose the fights. BS are the strongest, if you need to fight(fleetfights) and you are not searching for easy targets. try to roam in hostile space with handfull of bs and you will probably horribly die. try with bc's and hostiles would need to be more forceful to catch you. and so on.
King Rothgar Violent By Design Rough Necks	Posted - 2010.03.15 15:45:00 - [38] Sniper HAC's are superior to sniper BC's, in fact, I don't think I've ever seen a sniper BC gang. But that is their niche. In close range direct combat, BC's are absolutely superior. Yes they are slower but being really good at retreating is not exactly an attribute I look for in a ship. Better to just win the fight and avoid those you can't via scouting. 5 properly fitted and skilled BC's vs 5 properly skilled and fitted HAC's should be terribly one sided in favor of the BC's. In regards to BC's vs BS's, BC's have their place. In general pvp, my preferred gang is a few BS's and a couple BC's. The BC's are there for heavy tackle and killing off smaller stuff that the BS's can't hit. Running around in an exclusive BS gang is actually kinda risky since small ships can duck under your guns and cause all sorts of problems. A few BC's mixed in corrects that problem.
mygirl2 Caldari Hell's Horsemen	Posted - 2010.03.15 16:00:00 - [39] This debate has always been hillarious... Id take my Pulse Zealot against a Harby any day. WoW has kids EvE has Cry Babies
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.03.15 16:04:00 - [40] Pro pvpers use HACs, they are rich, skilled and decent pilots. if you fail in a HAC you are none of these things.

RiotRick Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.03.15 17:42:00 - [41] I'd fly a hac over a bc in almost any situation. In a hac you can survive if the **** hits the fan. In a bc you cannot. I'll take more speed and more agility over bigger tank and more damage any day. --
Love MacLeod	Posted - 2010.03.15 19:57:00 - [42] Originally by: Dr Fighter Pro pvpers use HACs, they are rich, skilled and decent pilots. if you fail in a HAC you are none of these things. Pro pvpers use Faction Cruisers, a Cynabal is way better than a Vaga and costs nearly the same. ;)
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Punic Corp.	Posted - 2010.03.15 20:23:00 - [43] Originally by: King Rothgar Sniper HAC's are superior to sniper BC's, in fact, I don't think I've ever seen a sniper BC gang. That's probably because there is only one real sniper battlecruiser, it's one of the tier 1 battlecruisers, and it's not that great even compared to the other tier 1s. ----- 'In Eve, as in real life, if you are bored it's your own fault.'
King Rothgar Violent By Design Rough Necks	Posted - 2010.03.15 20:45:00 - [44] Hehe, I've actually seen some pretty solid blaster ferox's. But yeah, never seen one snipe successfully. Not sure I've seen one snipe unsuccessfully either. Only know two guys who fly them and they use a blaster setup. It's actually incredibly good for a ship that only costs 40M to rig and fully t2 fit. My harbinger maybe better but it costs 75M and isn't that much better.
Beltantis Torrence Groovy Guns	Posted - 2010.03.15 22:04:00 - [45] If you need to post a thread like this, yeah, its not worth it. They're really only good in well piloted gangs. If you're in gangs with BC's or people with low SP BC's always will outperform for the money. HAC's are meant to be like the cruiser equiv of a frig swarm. Fast, hard hitting and can gtfo. BC's aren't quite as good at the gtfo part but are still great especially for the money. If you're part of an epic gang though with skilled pilots you'll see a lot more ass raping from a HAC gang thanks to their range keeping ability.
Taua Roqa Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2010.03.15 22:27:00 - [46] for ú5 you can make an awesome beefburger for dinner or eat 10 loafs of bread, i guess.
Ghoest	Posted - 2010.03.15 23:58:00 - [47] If you have the right SP a Ferox can easily hang in a HAC sniper group. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Pellit1 Caldari Bushwhackers Rough Necks	Posted - 2010.03.16 00:57:00 - [48] Originally by: mygirl2 This debate has always been hillarious... Id take my Pulse Zealot against a Harby any day. QFT although substitute the ships with a Vaga and a Cane ------------- Rough Necks Alliance BOOST FALCONS. Nerf whiners.
Joe Censored Unknown-Entity Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.16 01:36:00 - [49] Originally by: Zeba Hacs are best employed along with recons. Add a curse and falcon to your hac gang and see how your bc gang fairs. ^^^ This Plus if things start going in the BC gang's favor, the T2 cruisers can withdraw due to their mobility advantage, while the BC gang will generally be committed to the battle.
Mahke Aeon Of Strife Discord.	Posted - 2010.03.16 03:00:00 - [50] Edited by: Mahke on 16/03/2010 03:04:25 Edited by: Mahke on 16/03/2010 03:03:26 Originally by: Shad0w Hawk Why fly hacs when you can fly bcs? Why fly bcs when you can fly bs? Why fly bs when you can fly dreads? Size, agility, speed and gtfo ability is the answer to your question. Except you can nano-out a BC (especially the hurricane) to do the agility, speed, and GTFO thing too. There are many roles a HAC can do better than a BC: hit-and-run (vaga), sniper (zealot, munin, eagle), things-that-a-cerb-does (cerb), droneship (ishtar), etc. etc. the problem comes in that for the cost-to-lose difference between a HAC and a BC, the BC's performance (if well fitted) is often close enough to not justify going with the HAC (with some exceptions); ESPECIALLY if you're not flying in a tightly focused gang (harb or hurricane as a sniper works great out to 100km, but if you're in a specialized gang sniping at 110 you'll want a HAC to do it, for example -- at close range oftentimes BC's are simply better). The question people ask when choosing to take out a HAC versus a BC is often whether its worth taking out a HAC over a BC, not which is absolutely better: and in today's environment and with today's prices, the answer is usually no. edit: Originally by: King Rothgar Hehe, I've actually seen some pretty solid blaster ferox's. But yeah, never seen one snipe successfully. Not sure I've seen one snipe unsuccessfully either. Only know two guys who fly them and they use a blaster setup. It's actually incredibly good for a ship that only costs 40M to rig and fully t2 fit. My harbinger maybe better but it costs 75M and isn't that much better. I know its inferior to a zealot (almost a second slower to GTFO and less range), but, I actually like my sniper harb. Given, I haven't gotten the chance to kill much in it, but, its a fun ship when you want a cheap HAC replacement and are not flying in a pure snipe HAC gang.

Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.03.16 03:41:00 - [51] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 16/03/2010 03:42:01 Originally by: "random people" My HAC pwns BCs While flying the Hurricane: Solo deaths to HACs: 0 Solo deaths to recons: 1 (close call, but meh, shield cane is not meant to kill Pilgrims) Solo kills of HACs: 19 plus three Vagas ransomed Solo kills of recons: 8 (ok, one was in a Rupture) Sadly it is very rare for a solo HAC, even a Vagabond, to engage a solo BC for some reason, particularly after the nano age unfortunately ended and HAC pilots collectively lost their balls. They are good for sniping where they outdo BCs or when you expect to run away a lot. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Wieting Foyu Gallente Foyu Trading World	Posted - 2010.03.16 06:48:00 - [52] My pretty lil deimos of 2yrs finally died to a rook/sac duo. It has beaten numerous bc and under classes solo. 2 battleships (hyperion, domi) in that time as well. When in fleets, the deimos gets the top damage most of the time. Not to mention how many times I was able to run away when I knew I was on the losing end. It would come down to skills (trained and raw intelligence) to which is better. I have no BC skills at all. I went from cruiser to battleship in training. All because I prefer the HAC. Proof or STFU.... http://foyu.eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=102352
Darthewok State Protectorate	Posted - 2010.03.16 07:08:00 - [53] BECAUSE OF INSURANCE
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.03.16 07:31:00 - [54] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 16/03/2010 07:32:11 Originally by: Wieting Foyu My pretty lil deimos of 2yrs finally died to a rook/sac duo. It has beaten numerous bc and under classes solo. 2 battleships (hyperion, domi) in that time as well. When in fleets, the deimos gets the top damage most of the time. Not to mention how many times I was able to run away when I knew I was on the losing end. It would come down to skills (trained and raw intelligence) to which is better. I have no BC skills at all. I went from cruiser to battleship in training. All because I prefer the HAC. Proof or STFU.... http://foyu.eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=102352 Yeah, you killed a Dominix piloted by a noob and completely failfit. That's one of your only solo kills with a Diemost. You have 0 solo kills of PVP fit BCs, according to your killboard. All of your kills are in gangs where you outnumber people or attacking someone who's already engaged with sentries which makes it fairly trivial. Besides, with 80 kills in 2 years you're hardly the PVP guru who has a place offering advice. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Wieting Foyu Gallente Foyu Trading World	Posted - 2010.03.16 07:49:00 - [55] Edited by: Wieting Foyu on 16/03/2010 07:54:51 Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 16/03/2010 07:32:11 Originally by: Wieting Foyu My pretty lil deimos of 2yrs finally died to a rook/sac duo. It has beaten numerous bc and under classes solo. 2 battleships (hyperion, domi) in that time as well. When in fleets, the deimos gets the top damage most of the time. Not to mention how many times I was able to run away when I knew I was on the losing end. It would come down to skills (trained and raw intelligence) to which is better. I have no BC skills at all. I went from cruiser to battleship in training. All because I prefer the HAC. Proof or STFU.... http://foyu.eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=102352 Yeah, you killed a Dominix piloted by a noob and completely failfit. That's one of your only solo kills with a Diemost. You have 0 solo kills of PVP fit BCs, according to your killboard. All of your kills are in gangs where you outnumber people or attacking someone who's already engaged with sentries which makes it fairly trivial. Besides, with 80 kills in 2 years you're hardly the PVP guru who has a place offering advice. http://foyu.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=5341399 80 kills 30 deaths in 2 years isn't bad for someone that is a trader living in low sec and thinks alts are for losers. Not a pirate or pvp player just saying its all on the pilot, any ship is good if you want it to be, not just a paper beats rock scenario. As for sentries being added to km's... that is standard no matter when they were in the battle it will always show up if they have ever been shot before docking or jumping gate. Hence why I am on some kill mails with veto.
Stop Posting	Posted - 2010.03.16 08:46:00 - [56] Originally by: Stuart Price Originally by: Meiyang Lee A Sacrilege offers good speed, a massive tank and good DPS on a platform the size of a cruiser, the closest BC equivalent is the drake which has the massive tank, but lacks both other traits. I love it when people say the Drake has terrible dps. Drake = Fail srry
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.16 08:48:00 - [57] Originally by: Stop Posting Drake = Fail srry Interesting. How so? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Cowardly Sniper	Posted - 2010.03.16 08:54:00 - [58] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Stop Posting Drake = Fail srry Interesting. How so? Drakes job = Die slowly. srry
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.03.16 09:00:00 - [59] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 16/03/2010 09:00:30 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 16/03/2010 09:00:15 Originally by: Wieting Foyu 80 kills 30 deaths (including 11 indies caught in gate camps) in 2 years isn't bad for someone that is a trader living in low sec and thinks alts are for losers. Not a pirate or pvp player just saying its all on the pilot, any ship is good if you want it to be, not just a paper beats rock scenario. Well, that is okay, but in reality some ships are just more powerful (on paper). Sure, there are lots of pilots who fly ships to less then their max potential (and this applies to a ton of BC pilots, since BCs are relatively easy to skill into), but you can do amazing things with some of the BCs, much crazier then what a Diemost could hope to achieve. When you compare it to other HACs, its not so stellar either, with it winning on DPS somewhat but with a lot of downsides to compensate, and again you can get higher DPS out of many BCs and if you really want a T2 ship, CS are a viable alternative for close range DPS with high resists for RRing and so on, and they're not that much more expensive then HACs (~70%) while hugely outdoing them in everything bar mobility. The good HACs are ones which do things BCs cannot replicate. This is in short why Diemost gets a lot of criticism. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Stygian Knight Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.03.16 09:15:00 - [60] HAC >>> BC in 0.0 end of story HAC <<< BC in low sec. As for ships and their roles. BC CANNOT perform better then HAC in HAC roles. And no, hurricane cannot substitute vagabond or munin in any way, (only use it if you are flying some lol-casual gangs, or if you lack skill points / isk to fly HAC) Agility and sig radius DOES matter



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