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CherniyVolk
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2010.03.17 04:58:00 -
[91]
All this talk about BCs being as good as HACs only really started emerging with the Tier 2 Battle Cruisers.
A Deimos vs a Brutix? Only a slight advantage? The Brutix is the size of a barn, and is going to take on full dps and it can't possibly out tank the Deimos or any other HAC for that matter... same goes for any Tier 1 BCs. They will most often die to the HAC.
I find it true, if you can fly a HAC, why fly a BC especially in 0.0 where the agility will keep you alive more than the cheaper costs of the Tech 1 ship. (Especially attempting to put any well-rounded tank on that T1 ship against the base resists of a HAC).
Now enter the Tier 2 battle cruisers. This is where things get a bit more interesting. Some of these have nice tanks, some of them have nice DPS. 1v1 it's a coin toss really, but they are worse than the Tier 1 counterparts in the mobility department; in other words, they are most effective in gangs.
Now, a gang of Tier 2 BC is no laughing matter, but I'll confidently debate that a gang of HACs with similar numbers will run havoc over the Tier 2 BC gang.
Most importantly, to stress the superiority of T2. A BC can kill an Assault Frigate, big deal. Now let's think about the same gang of Tier 2 BCs facing off with gang of Tech 2 BCs.
Seriously, a HAC is very useful for it's capabilities and many people still buy them and use them. Don't worry, you'll be able to fly one soon enough so don't be so bitter about it to over glorify your precious Tier 2 BC. One day, you'll be able to fly a Tech 2 Battle Cruiser, and those things are pretty bad ass, dps and tank wise.
But, for some reason, pilots in eve have gravitated towards cheaper solutions. I remember when "If you can fly T2 fly it, even if it's a smaller ship" was the rule of thumb, and when it was, and you had pure T2 gangs flying around... no non-capital Tech 1 ship(s) survived the encounter in 0.0.
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Darthewok
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2010.03.17 05:30:00 -
[92]
some basic observations about t2.
1. certain t2 ships can do specialized things no t1 ship can do eg. 100km optimal sniper HAC gangs, interdictors etc. and therefore sometimes you have to buy them regardless of price because there are no substitutes.
2. t2 ships tend to be better used in with other t2 gangs eg. 2 logistics have much survivable odds than 1, sniper HAC useful in pure sniper HAC gang, less useful in mixed gang as FC cannot range tank the gang because the others lack range.
3. in mixed gangs or general close range battle, BC may be equal or better to t2.
4. t2 are much more expensive than t1 in the market because of component price fluctuations due to changes in bill of materials and war over resources (Eg. technetium).
5. t2 are poorly insurable as their bill of materials is mostly components not minerals and only minerals are taken into account by CCP's insurance formula.
6. with the effect of 4. and 5. you end up paying as much as 5 times the price of a BC for a HAC.
7. T2 are more interesting and fun than T1 because of their more sophisticated playstyle and specialized capabilities.
8. the expense of HACs makes them much more rarely used and reduces the fun level of PVP because it reduces the appearance of these fun ships. T2 combat = much more interesting than T1 slugfest IMO.
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Asuka Smith
Gallente
Noir.
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Posted - 2010.03.17 05:43:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Asuka Smith on 17/03/2010 05:45:10
Edited by: Asuka Smith on 17/03/2010 05:44:12
The reason a HAC is better than a battlecruiser is because it can win 90% of the fights a battlecruiser can win, and it can run away from 90% of the fights that a battlecruiser can't.
Let's be honest, most fights are not fair. A HAC is fast enough that when the opportunity for a gank comes along it can jump on it. It is a lot easier to capitalize on the mistakes of others (a key factor in getting a kill, or avoiding getting killed) when you are quick. The longer it takes you to implement a good strategy, regardless of how good it is, the less likely it is to work. In a HAC gang the FC can make a decision and then 15 seconds later the die is cast. Whereas in a battlecruiser the same plan might take 45-60 seconds to implement.
Another important consideration is the ability to roam. Roaming in battlecruisers takes a long time, HACs can roam MUCH faster. I mean it is pretty simple, in the time it takes a BC gang to move 10 jumps a HAC gang could have moved 13-15. Also, HAC gangs can sit in riskier positions because with good scouting they can leave at a moments notice, battlecruisers are constantly slugging behind and getting pwned for it.
Perhaps most importantly, HACs are RARELY if EVER committed to a fight. Unless the HAC pilot picked one of the bad ones (Deimos, Sacrilege) he should be WELL outside the danger zone. For example we shall use the Zealot, one of the premiere HACs. A zealot will be at say 40km even with pulse lasers. An inty starts burning towards you to tackle? instapop it or warp out. If you have beams you are at 100km and if you are aligned out to a safespot you will NEVER get killed. Those are situations where most battlecruisers would simply get tackled and murdered.
And let's face it, there is ALWAYS a bigger gang. 9/10 of my losses are when I get ganked by a superior force that I did not anticipate. When you jump a gate into a camp in a BC you are DEAD MEAT. A nanohac has a much better chance of escaping. Or if you are orbiting with your vagabond at 22km DPSing down a hostile and local spikes up by 40! Oh ****! If you are in a vaga you just align and pulse the MWD and warp to safety. In a Hurricane you would be dead meat.
Speed is a VITAL statistic, maybe the MOST vital statistic in the game. Speed determines whether a door is open or closed, whether something is an opportunity or a liability. HACs have a LOT of opportunities when they undock, a BC does not.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.03.17 05:49:00 -
[94]
 Originally by: Darthewok
What kind of messed up price determination is that? This needs a fix for sure.
What is even more funny is the price of pirate faction cruisers, compare Vagabond and Cynabal which is supposed to be "rare".
Not only is the Cynabal vastly superior and needs a lot less training time, but even its price is continually dropping to a point where it costs the same as the HAC.
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Shawna Gray
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.17 07:58:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Demolishar
HAC/Recon/BC/Cruiser roams, indicating there is a CHOICE between which of those shiptyps you take? And I'm saying that people mostly will take cheap T1 stuff because they can't afford to lose the T2 stuff. So if you choose to fly T2 you end up being the only T2 ship in the gang.
Then your alliance chooses not to play to the HAC's strenghts by for instance going in real sniperhac gangs. Thats your fault, and not a problem with the ship.
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Jotobar
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Posted - 2010.03.17 08:05:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Jotobar on 17/03/2010 08:05:22
Stupid post comparing eft ehp and dps numbers without any other regard. next.
(show me a bc that shoots at 230 btw)
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Darthewok
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2010.03.17 08:10:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Darthewok on 17/03/2010 08:14:01
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Darthewok
What kind of messed up price determination is that? This needs a fix for sure.
What is even more funny is the price of pirate faction cruisers, compare Vagabond and Cynabal which is supposed to be "rare".
Not only is the Cynabal vastly superior and needs a lot less training time, but even its price is continually dropping to a point where it costs the same as the HAC.
yeah. basically t2 has no anti-inflationary adjuster built in.
for t1 if demand increases, people mine more veldspar, of which there is no shortage.
for t3 if demand increases, more people wormhole.
for faction/pirate ships if demand increases, more people run faction/pirate missions for pirate LP.
for t2 on the other hand, once all the moons are fully utilized, thats it. no more room for supply to expand to prevent inflation.
in other words, continually rising price, leading to increased price gap with t1 and decreased price gap with faction/pirate and t3.
and less and less people will fly t2 unless they are forced to by certain functions eg. interdictors.
so may be the t2 mineral fixed supply was not a problem when t2 was first introduced as resource limits had not been approached.
but now demand for t2 has risen far and resource limits are being approached, it is time to introduce some mechanism to relieve supply pressures.
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
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Posted - 2010.03.17 08:31:00 -
[98]
Originally by: CherniyVolk
But, for some reason, pilots in eve have gravitated towards cheaper solutions. I remember when "If you can fly T2 fly it, even if it's a smaller ship" was the rule of thumb, and when it was, and you had pure T2 gangs flying around... no non-capital Tech 1 ship(s) survived the encounter in 0.0.
1. That was back when many tech 2 cruisers (and heavy assaults in particular) could run around at 3km/s or more with a simple tech 2 speed fit.
2. It was back when tech 1 ships didn't cost so little that the insurance payout replaced both the market cost of the ship and the insurance payment, and almost all tech 2 cruisers could be had for less than 100 mil (some for a hell of a lot less).
3. If the rule of thumb is that you fly tech 2 if you can in 0.0, then ask yourself who generally was not flying around in tech 2. Then you'll have a completely different explanation for why "no non-capital Tech 1 ship(s) survived the encounter" than the one you're implying.
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'In Eve, as in real life, if you are bored it's your own fault.' |
VanNostrum
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Posted - 2010.03.17 10:04:00 -
[99]
Edited by: VanNostrum on 17/03/2010 10:03:57
There're so many hvy dictors in low sec gangs now that your HAC's speed advantage is gone down the drain. Or one rapier/huginn in enemy group and you're nailed in space getting pounded by BCs. Sure you can have a scout running every system ahead of you but then you'll end up having your leet HAC gang shooting on newbie ratters only and pretty much running away from everything else.
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Madmi CEO
Mad Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.03.17 10:39:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Darthewok
for t2 on the other hand, once all the moons are fully utilized, that's it. no more room for supply to expand to prevent inflation.
Might one expect that Tyrannis (and with that, Planetary Mineral Surveying - PMS ^^) will make T2 minerals available from planets also?
I mean, if a mineral is available at a moon, it should also be available from a planet. Of course if the mineral is located beneath a city, the inhabitants will have to relocate. I wonder how long it will take the shells from a rack of 1400's to reach their capital city from orbit...
Can't wait!
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2010.03.17 11:54:00 -
[101]
Originally by: VanNostrum
Edited by: VanNostrum on 17/03/2010 10:03:57
There're so many hvy dictors in low sec gangs now that your HAC's speed advantage is gone down the drain. Or one rapier/huginn in enemy group and you're nailed in space getting pounded by BCs. Sure you can have a scout running every system ahead of you but then you'll end up having your leet HAC gang shooting on newbie ratters only and pretty much running away from everything else.
single huginn/rapier/scimi or falcon in a BC gang is not a problem for a HAC gang, just primary the most dangerous ship to your gang and go about your HACy busniess.
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Riedle
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
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Posted - 2010.03.17 12:11:00 -
[102]
Vagabond.
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Emperor Ryan
Amarr
Imperial Syndicate Forces
Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.03.17 14:22:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Izzybella
The more I look at Izzybella in general, the more I think she is a complete waste of both time and money. A better suited poster will beat her 9/10 times, and they consume a 5th of the time it takes to read the post and are entertaining.
- Emperor
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VeryNice
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Posted - 2010.03.23 23:45:00 -
[104]
They are fun to fly but aside from that in rl you can insure a sports car and ccp won't let you insure your sports car in the game which makes the price tag iffy for some players but like in life there are the elite and well the under class so wake up ccp give t2 better insurance
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Bibosikus
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Posted - 2010.03.24 00:00:00 -
[105]
Originally by: VeryNice
They are fun to fly ..
This.
And I'll happily pay 150mill for an Ishtar. Show me any other boat of its size that can push 470dps out to 140km+ (T2 Wardens) *and* swap out damage types in 4 seconds flat. Face it, by the time you're training HACs you should be earning/stealing enough isk to buy and part-insure them, and starting to inherit that certain rakish grin and devil-may-care attitude that truly good HAC pilots enjoy.
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Gabrielle Lamb
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Posted - 2010.03.28 18:17:00 -
[106]
Why fly dull ship when you can fly fun ship? =)
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KA StarLifter
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Posted - 2010.03.29 00:02:00 -
[107]
EFT-based arguments suck balls.
The people who argue based on EFT suck snails, and are just loud and/or obnoxious noobs.
The people who complain that a cruiser-based hull, such as the HACs I fly and kill them with, should not be able to solo Battleships are just cry-babies who don't understand the mechanics of the game.
I won't tell you what I fly, nor who I am, but I will say that I've been around since 2004, playing solidly, and fully realize which HACs to use when and where, and just wish my alliance had a few more personally-skilled (as opposed to in-game skill-points) people who know what a few of us do.
Pick and choose your ships when you pick and choose the pilots you choose to pvp with. When you can't trust your partners, fly the cheap stuff like BC's and BS's, or don't fly with them at all.
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.03.29 00:14:00 -
[108]
Originally by: KA StarLifter
The people who complain that a cruiser-based hull, such as the HACs I fly and kill them with, should not be able to solo Battleships are just cry-babies who don't understand the mechanics of the game.
You do not understand this thread, since nobody is saying anything even remotely similar to that. The thread is about complaining how HACs are too expensive for what they provide.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Azeroth Uluntil
Caldari
Problematique Inc.
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Posted - 2010.03.29 02:09:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Azeroth Uluntil on 29/03/2010 02:10:02
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Joe Censored
Originally by: Zeba
Hacs are best employed along with recons. Add a curse and falcon to your hac gang and see how your bc gang fairs. 
^^^ This
Plus if things start going in the BC gang's favor, the T2 cruisers can withdraw due to their mobility advantage, while the BC gang will generally be committed to the battle.
That's weird.
Let's take this phrase:
'Add a curse and falcon to your hac gang and see how your bc gang fairs.'
And twist it a little:
'Add a curse and falcon to your bc gang and see how your hac gang fairs.'
...
..
,
How many ishtars does the hac gang have? If 2 or more, curse and falcon die/warp off, unless the ishtar pilots are idiots.
As someone mentioned before, gangs of hacs with logistics support will beat gangs of battlecruisers with logistics support. If neither side has a logistics, then it comes purely down to their fits and the intelligence of the pilots flying said ships.
Armor tanking hacs work amazingly well with logistics support, and can engage/kill nearly any gang they could run across, with no or minimal losses.
People keep citing the isk war for ship losses. If you lose 5 bcs to kill a single hac, was it really worth it? You probably have 5 irritated bc pilots as opposed to irritating a single hac pilot.
Originally by: Bibosikus
Originally by: VeryNice
They are fun to fly ..
This.
And I'll happily pay 150mill for an Ishtar. Show me any other boat of its size that can push 470dps out to 140km+ (T2 Wardens) *and* swap out damage types in 4 seconds flat. Face it, by the time you're training HACs you should be earning/stealing enough isk to buy and part-insure them, and starting to inherit that certain rakish grin and devil-may-care attitude that truly good HAC pilots enjoy.
I really hope you don't use wardens in pvp.
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Poses
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Posted - 2010.03.29 05:45:00 -
[110]
i posted here a few days ago... I'm sad to see this thread is still around.
honestly the end to the argument is: if you have to ask, the answer is clear.
if you do not just understand why a HAC or recon is better then a BC in a situation, then you WILL be better off in a BC
screw the numbers, screw the anecdotes. I've lived in a hac when i would have died in a BC and I've lived in a BC when i would have died in a HAC, the secret is knowing when that will happen and piloting accordingly.
finally, on the isk war thing... if you cannot afford to lose it don't fly it, but really... its hard to lose a nano HAC without making a piloting error
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2010.03.29 07:58:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Hiroshima Jita on 29/03/2010 07:59:02
Originally by: Asuka Smith
The reason a HAC is better than a battlecruiser is because it can win 90% of the fights a battlecruiser can win, and it can run away from 90% of the fights that a battlecruiser can't.
Add an interceptor scout and both the HAC and the BC wont get ganked 90%+ of the time.
Originally by: Darthewok
for t2 on the other hand, once all the moons are fully utilized, that's it. no more room for supply to expand to prevent inflation.
In fact when T2 prices go up people are encouraged to aquire more moons. This leads to POS spending time getting exploded which leads to LESS supply when suppliers are motivated.
Also if an FC calls for a pure T2 cruiser gang its likely he will boot ******s who dont bring the ships he wanted. I've personally exploded a catalyst that tried to join fleet that was fit with all salvagers.
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El Mauru
Amarr
EVERYTHING IS TERRIBLE
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Posted - 2010.03.29 15:51:00 -
[112]
I'm suprised nobody mentioned locking speed yet.
The HAC gang gets 1-3 volleys of free dps before any BC gang can even apply its own, let alone properly tackle the target.
Spend those first 1-3 volleys on the tacklers/logistics/bubblers and you will begin to understand why HACs > BCs.
Finally:
Survivability and GTFO abilities become way more important than price in hostile/deep 0.0 where reshipping/getting back into position easily can kill an entire evening of pewpew.
Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
MWDrive
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Posted - 2010.03.29 16:17:00 -
[113]
i dont know why are people always comparing HACs to BCs... they are different ships, have different roles... if you use your hac same as bc youre doing it wrong...
next thing ill see will be comparing BS and ceptors.... |
Taua Roqa
Minmatar
Woe Hole
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Posted - 2010.03.29 17:32:00 -
[114]
You want to know the truth?
HACs for PvP (PVP = The destruction of labour, the basic principle of endless labour AKA wage slavery), and T2 PVP in general were made mantra and inculcated so fervently by T2 producers of old (aka the low character ID club furthermore known as The Beta Organisation Resource Group, Qua the B.O.R.G.) to manipulate the eve playerbase into consuming their produce en-masse, making them into trillionaires whilst the average joe/jo-ette slaves away grinding isk and selling GTC to maintain their level of consumption.
*tinfoil*
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.03.29 17:42:00 -
[115]
Originally by: El Mauru
I'm suprised nobody mentioned locking speed yet.
The HAC gang gets 1-3 volleys of free dps before any BC gang can even apply its own, let alone properly tackle the target.
What are these guns with 0.5s rof?
I find a BC locks cruiser-sized targets pretty damn fast with sig analysis V and leadership V.
The only HAC gang which will really roll over a BC gang with equal support on both sides is a sniper HAC gang since they can simply outrange every BC. If you pit short/mid-range HACs vs BCs which know how to properly fit and fly their ships for BC gangs you will certainly get losses, who will win is really debatable.
The single biggest advantage of HACs BCs cannot replicate is range.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Barakkus
Caelestis Iudicium
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Posted - 2010.03.29 19:06:00 -
[116]
Last I looked at HACs they cost about as much as a pirate faction cruiser, and in general I think the pirate faction cruisers are better than their HAC counterpart for the same money. Unless prices have changed dramatically in the last 4 months I would just get a pirate cruiser.
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
rofl
edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.03 10:26:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil
unless the ishtar pilots are idiots.
It's hilarious how often things go wrong because people are just idiots and do stupid things (mea culpa)
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Dacryphile
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Posted - 2010.04.03 19:47:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Griplick
Edited by: Griplick on 13/03/2010 23:38:51
Originally by: Aggelos Theristes
A gang of HACs however will maul a gang of BCs.
Why would this happen? As you say BCs are generally better, so why would a gang BCs lose to the inferior gang of HACs? I'm assuming you mean gangs of the smae size.
EDIT: yay for defaulting to jita price check alt
HACs pwn
Originally by: Doc Robertson
...take a good look at this pic and tell us which one is you.
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Phosphorus Palladium
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Posted - 2010.04.03 23:00:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Phosphorus Palladium on 03/04/2010 23:01:01
Originally by: Dacryphile
ZEALOTs pwn
Fixed. 
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Darthewok
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.04.04 01:53:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Barakkus
Last I looked at HACs they cost about as much as a pirate faction cruiser, and in general I think the pirate faction cruisers are better than their HAC counterpart for the same money. Unless prices have changed dramatically in the last 4 months I would just get a pirate cruiser.
if nothing is done to deal with the "fixed" nature of t2-related moon goo supply, i fully expect people to start flying more pirate cruisers over HACs more and more till HACs become irrelevant except maybe Zealot/Muninn for longrange sniping as they have no good substitutes. (Just like the Cynabal has become a Vaga replacement).
CCP has to be aware of the t2 moon goo problem as it is pretty obvious (server pop rises, moon goo fixed, t2 price rises). i am guessing they are just very cautious in possible side effects of any fixes they may try and player reactions. therefore it will probably be months and months if not years before they address it with a fix. in other words, its a bad time to be flying HACs as T2 inflation does not look to be addressed any time soon.
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