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Bloodwolf
M.A.R.S. Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.03.18 22:27:00 -
[1]
I agree with the OP..
What many do not understand, this is not about the money sink.
The problem is that veteran player have a negative incentive to use cheap ships, like for example used in frig pvp or cruiser pvp or something. This is only restricting choices and not balancing anything.
This is somehow like very old Vampires in World of Darkness where they are only awake and around for shorter and shorter amounts of time. That there is an incentive to create alts for use in fun events like frig and cruiser pvp is not helping anyone. In the long run there will even be a strong incentive to use a second character with a frozen set of skills for any kind of sub capital pvp. |
Bloodwolf
M.A.R.S. Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.03.19 11:58:00 -
[2]
The problem is not the cost of the clones per se.. but how the pressure is applied on older players. There were some ideas like allowing us to buy licenses for clones for a higher cost. And getting replacement clones for free ...
Everyone who is not seeing the problem is thinking that the veterans are upset with paying more. This might be one point but the truly restricting factor is that you can not justify flying smaller ships once you have to dish out 30 or 60m for every clone. This is not about whether you can afford a better ship or not.. some people just enjoy flying different stuff from time to time. Using an alt is more of a way of circumventing some design flaw. This is not dumbing down anything... if anything from my point of view you could make the cost of death even higher.. but you should not do it in a way that restricts options of gameplay.
It is funny how people with less skill points seem to be offended by the possible reduction of clone costs. This seems to be rooted in the still lingering superstition that high sp means a meaningful advantage on the battlefield. In fact the clone cost does not hurt the older players... it hurts gameplay most. Do you want someone to risk a disposable ship in pvp? Or do you want him to retreat at the next best opportunity?
Well in the end those changes will take place.. imagine the future.. some years from now.. half of the active player base reaches the point where they have to spend 60m for one clone. What do you think will happen to the market price and usage of smaller ships?
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Bloodwolf
M.A.R.S. Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.03.19 13:02:00 -
[3]
Sturmwolke i agree that the points you mentioned are restricting gameplay options. But those are restrictions brought upon the player himself. In your example the restricting factor is mostly the time you are willing to spend for playing eve. In the case of clone costs it is a gameplay decision that restricts economically thinking veterans from some forms of pvp. At the 60m per clone mark even t1 battleships might be less interesting to use.
Of course the player could stop skilling at some point and this would make it his decision again. But is this how it was intended?
If you look at eves skilltree the skills are arranged in a broad fashion. As opposed to a deep arrangement which would let you specialise in one profession for most of your skilling time. Therefore eve is geared towards jack of all trades style characters... and i think this will get stronger in the future... tyrannis will surely introduce new skills... incarna and clothing production might as well... and you know how crazy ccps long term plans are.
So what do we want? An increase in alt usage with specialised combat alts? Well that would be sad for people that identify with their main, but people would probably adapt. Or do we want to have a clone cost scheme that is making a little more sense? But writing this i realize that there are probably some people that trained frig pvp alts long ago, which explains the strong voices against this proposal. If changes were made those people would lose out a bit. But truly .. skillpoints are not that important and i think the strong connection that most people feel for their main will eventually lead to changes.
Besides i think most people dont have specialised pvp alts.. and if the majority reaches the point where they encounter a problem... well i think we all know what happens then. Not they will adapt but the system.
I am still pro cost change if anyone wondered at this point ^^ In general the current distribution seems like a rushed decision. And if there will be some player economy involvement in producing clones in the future it would be best to remember threads like this one and its predecessors.
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Bloodwolf
M.A.R.S. Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.03.19 13:59:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Sturmwolke
Ditto for choosing to put almost all your SP into a single character. What happened to the 2 other slots?
Can't even spare the 20 odd mil SP? Your angle of argument is invalidated. It's as simple as that.
No amount of mish-mash, flim-flam and riff-raff is going to win you the argument - which is incidentally what you're writing.
Period.
A more accurate summary of my post would be: nothing I say is going to win me the argument with a player who invested time in a pvp alt.
I understand that point of view. This would be the only scenario that would make someone feel betrayed by such changes. But I am quite sure that those players are a minority of the playerbase.
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Bloodwolf
M.A.R.S. Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.03.21 19:06:00 -
[5]
I really enjoy this discussion. But it gets boring if some who disagree only look at the topic with a narrow view and fail to adress things in their answers that they cant deny. That is one reason why this discussion goes around in circles.
Please, everyone who denies the need of changes reply to this question in your post :
Why do veterans need to be punished for skilling more with one char? What is the gameplay reason?
1.Is it revenge for them having a headstart?
2.Is it because of Epeen envy?
3.Is it because added versatility is so important that it justifies this steep cost scheme?
4.Is it because some people trained alts for flying frigs or doing other things and they dont want them to become useless?
Sure some people who play religiously might have a lot of money and incidentally have a lot of skillpoints.. but we shouldnt mix up the causality here. In fact it would be good if the QEN People would do some statistics as to whether SP have a real impact on money income beyond lets say 60m SP. I say the really important factor is time invested.
I suspect all of us like the idea of a sandbox and that is why we play eve. But a sandbox design means to give the player tools which he can use as he wishes. I argue that a sandbox is best if it offers more options to the users while still keeping its users interested in it. Should we decrease risk? Heck no, this would decrease eves followers. And decreasing risk would also lead eve out of its gameplay niche. But thats the point, this is not about decreasing risk. This is about changing a restrictive mechanic whoose reason of existence no one in this thread was able to state.
There were many ideas, and i suspect the best ones havent even been proposed yet. Deciding gameplay rules is like imposing a tax on citiziens. It will change their behaviour. But to reduce the players options for no good reason at all.. if you want risk put it on some factor that we can control. Like someone said before: How do I know beforehand which playstyle I like most? I think no one argues that accumulating skillpoints is the dominant strategy in eve.
Lets just assume the risk level stays the same after changes but it gets applied in a way that wont be a negative incentive to use smaller ships for vets. Who would be against that?
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Bloodwolf
M.A.R.S. Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.03.21 21:05:00 -
[6]
Many people seem to think that any change to clone costs would mean actually changing something from its former state. Please keep in mind that when those prices were implemented in 2008 most people did not have enough skillpoints to really feel the sting of the prices. The effects of the higher end clone prices is something that only recently effects players to a disturbing extend. That is also the reason why threads like this are made.
Eve had acceptable clone prices those past years because the bought clones were not of the higher grades. But it is only a matter of time until the ultimate money sink catches up to all of us. I do not believe for a second that anyone considers stopping to train skills. In fact the clone costs are a balance mechanic whoose effects change with the growth of average player skillpoints.
Therefore it will have an impact on how the playerbase behaves in the future.
The gameplay balance that all of us are used to is surely not higher than 20m per clone for the average player in eves population.. by that logic 20m would be a good high end clone price. 20m would not make you comfortably board a t1 cruiser.. but it also would not make you cringe at the thought of boarding a t1 bs.
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Bloodwolf
M.A.R.S. Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.03.21 22:15:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sturmwolke
Originally by: Bloodwolf
riff-raff, flim-flam .. bla bla bla
...
Why don't YOU tell everyone :
1. Why do you say 20mil@92 mil SP is too steep?
2. Why do you seem to imply that the average player is running at around 92mil SP?
3. Your estimation of how many players out there with 92mil SP?
4. Out of that 3. above, how many characters specifically with almost pure PVP skillsets?
5. Why do you feel entitled to hand-out, by running a scale where it costs 20mil isk for a 450mil clone?
If and when the whole bar moves, CCP will move it as they did in the past.
...
Why do I get the impression that you only answer questions with questions? But although you did not answer any of my questions I will answer yours before I am off for a week.
1. Did I say that? I think the real problem is after 20m clone cost. After 60m skillpoints all you get is a little more diversity and as a drawback a geometric increase in clone cost. Yay for that!
2. I choose the clone cost of 20m as a worst case scenario. Actually I choose it that high in your favor, too bad you didnt notice. If we assume the average clone cost is at 10m than the resulting high end clone cost which would work well in the long run would have been much lower than 20m as well.
3. I suppose they are by no means a majority right now. But that is the problem they are getting more by the second. When I had 92m skillpoints I would not have started this thread. But seemingly there are now enough players with a problem that they keep this topic alive.
4. How should I know? Playing guessing games is probably not going to help. But no matter what they skilled they all bear the same clone costs.
5. I am not posting here to solve the problem once and for all. I am merely stating that there is a problem that should be adressed. And I am giving pointers as to what effect which prices have on a players incentive to fly certain ship classes.
I am sure that CCP will move the bar in one way or the other. I am also sure that one of the reasons why no dev has responded to this thread is because they want us to discuss about this. If they would take a side the discussion would end and they would have less input on that matter. Player manufactured clones are probably just around the corner, which we incidentally think since 2003. I wonder if those people who horded biomass will get something out of it in the end.
Well I am sure that the regulars will gladly argue with you about this topic as much as you like this coming week. But please try to answer some questions instead of evading by only asking your own. If you dont then you are the one who makes us go on in circles.
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Bloodwolf
M.A.R.S. Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.04.04 15:37:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Roastedpot
my opinion on the matter isnt of any importance, but since clone costs are one of the few things that have remained unchanged and we are now on the 7th or so year of eve, it may be worth ccp's time to at least look and see if this is how they still envision the direction of the game going. if yes, then fine, if no then i save some money, cools.
An interesting point to think about is that those higher end clone costs did not have an effect on the playerbase until recently. So it is not only a matter of taking a look at a game balance which worked well for years. As players get more and more skillpoints we are leaving the old situation. In the next years this will certainly lead to an increasing incentive against the use of cheaper ships.
@Malcanis Most High SP Players think the OP is talking nonsense? Really? Who are they? Why should they think that? Ahhh of course you mean the vocal part of the people that post here and actually spent time training low cost pvp alts perhaps... I can understand their anguish if they actually did that. I do not think that a realistic representation of the player base actually bothers to post here instead of playing. But I still do believe that it is necessary to discuss this whole matter with whoever is interested.
And to say it once again the main problem is not the clone cost as a money sink. But the restrictive application of this money sink. Why discourage people to fly cheap ships into pvp? Why is that benefical to game balance?
I am quite impressed that there are still people who cry whiners! crybabys! carebears! all the time. Do you actually realize that you are out of arguments? There are some people who actually think about rules that are imposed on them. Instead of just accepting them even if they do not seem to make any sense. In fact it would be nice to have someone disagree with some points stated by the supporting faction. But alas replies usally are on the level of name calling and asking questions that were answered before.
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Bloodwolf
M.A.R.S. Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.04.04 16:05:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ard UnjiiGo
Nearly 50mil SP player weighing in:
OP and his ilk are embarrassing themselves.
So that is your opinion? In an effort to add some information value to this statement, would you care to explain why you think that?
Although with 50m SP you do not really experience the problem of not wanting to use smaller ships... just imagine how it would be to have 150m SP ... and then start pondering about the reason for that. You will most likely be as strong as you are now for most pvp situations.. but you will have to pay an ever increasing amount of money. And the reason being? I am certain that all of the people who support a change would be willing to pay more for higher skillpoint clones, but the current rates are overdoing it.
A point to note is that even among supporters there are some differences as to what they want.
The small ship pvp thing is surely something that most people would agree on, if they did not carefully and painstakingly made their own small time pvp alt. The other problem are the higher end clone costs in general. Naturally this one is more likely to have people disagree upon. But it is still a valid point of discussion. Sadly there are not really that many people who actually spill the beans why they are against a change in the cost scheme. Maybe they do not want to admit that they have strong sp envy? Or they do not want to have lost time training multiple chars?
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Bloodwolf
M.A.R.S. Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.04.04 18:29:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Bloodwolf on 04/04/2010 18:29:18
Originally by: Ard UnjiiGo
Edited by: Ard UnjiiGo on 04/04/2010 16:19:43
Check my KB stats whiners above me.
My most commonly lost ship is a pod. 
My most commonly used ships for the past year or so are frigates. 
I have lived in low-sec since I was a 2 day old character. 
That gives me plenty of real game standing to call you out for being crap players if the clone cost really cramps your ability to be successful in this game.
Edit: Since 75% or more of my isk is done through ransoms and loot sales and I still don't have a problem keeping myself in a decent amount of isk, I know I will still think of you as a sad whiner when I have 150mil SPs.
l2p
Actually learn to play is not the problem. Because clone costs do not necessarily cramp our abilities to be successful.. they just rule out the use of frigs, cruisers and other cheap ships at some point. The problem lies before even buying the ship. You do realize that it is irrational to pvp in a frig or a cruiser with 150m SP dont you?
It doesnt even matter if you get killed at all. If you think before you use a ship you will come to the conclusion that cheaper ships are not feasible anymore thus reducing their usage without any reason for doing so. This was not a problem as long as the effect was weak. But it cant be called weak anymore if you reach a 150 million skillpoints.
Good for you that you are swimming in isk. Are you swimming in enough isk to throw it away on fun cruiser pvp if the clone costs increase in the future? Good for you... some people might be as well. But there are certainly a lot more that would not pvp if it means spending more than they have to. Therefore they will choose a more expensive ship which gives them added survivability. Sucks for those who actually like to fly frigs and are against irrational spending of money. Maybe it is really intended to use alts for that. I would be delighted if someone told me why this is a good thing. Usally restrictive rules are there for a reason... im still searching for this one.
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