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Mining needs boost

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Kasmir Caritas.	Posted - 2010.03.18 22:39:00 - [1] Like most PVPers I need a way to make isk because I lose a fair amount of ships. Lately I have been inventing and manufacturing tech 2 strip miners. I needed isk and my strip miners werenÆt selling fast, so I figured I would create some demand. On I went to steal ore with a battle badger. After a couple of hours I was really annoyed. Miners are VERY rare, and nobody jet can mines anymore (canÆt blame them, lol). So I went to plan B: Level 4 missions. It got me thinking. If someone trains up to a BS they can make a lot of isk with bounties, and get a large amount of minerals if they loot the mission. Lets say that on average a missioner would get about 500m3/hour of loot (pretty easy to get twice than this). If one were to take the ôcarebearö route and train for a hulk they would mine about 1436m3/hour (according to EFT). Now lets link this to an ore calculator; (I used mineral prices from citadel, your region may vary, and prices change often) Best high sec ore will get you about 110isk/m3, or about 3million an hour. low sec ores seem to get you less than some high sec ones. Best ore in 0.0 (Arknor) will get you 305.3 isk/m3, or just under 9mil an hour. Missions vary a bit in reward and length, and so it is hard to put an exact value on your total income. I think it is safe to say that bounties and rewards will get you about 5-20 million an hour, and looting will get you an additional 1-2million (guessing on this one, never really noticed). That is about 6-22mil an hour for mission running, vs 3-9 million for mining. In addition to more isk, looting also gives you minerals that you cannot mine in high sec. From what I hear a marauder increases the isk/hour by a large amount, but I have no personal experience flying one, and so I will not comment. Capital mining ships Yes, I know these increase mining per time, but lets do some calculations. Lets say we have an orca flown by someone with all level5 skills. They are running 3 mining foreman links; the ones that decrease duration. I do not think the orca can run 3, but it looks like the rorqual can. My calculations show that a hulk pilot would now harvest 38171m3/hour vs the 28720/hour without the boosts. Obviously it would be better to have 2 hulks as opposed to 1 hulk and 1 rorq. If you have 3 hulks and 1 orca you will harvest 114513m3/hour, but if you had 4 hulks you would be getting 114880m3. 4 Hulks +1 orca would mine more than 5 hulks. If you were in that 5 ship mining op (with the orca) you would have to mine for 185 hours before you were to break even. calculations: 152684m3/h with orca 143600m3/h without 9084m3/h difference *110isk/m3 = ~1million isk/hour Orca costs 360m, hulk with 3 strip miners 175m, difference is 185m 185m isk/1m isk/hour = 185hours Summary: Missions give much better isk/hour than mining. Don't' get in an orca unless you have 4 buddies in hulks. Thoughts? You may now begin trolling...
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.18 22:43:00 - [2] Originally by: Kasmir If one were to take the “carebear” route and train for a hulk they would mine about 1436m3/~~hour~~ minute (according to EFT). Fixed. Or at least made closer to what EFT actually tells you.
Kasmir Caritas.	Posted - 2010.03.18 22:56:00 - [3] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Kasmir If one were to take the ôcarebearö route and train for a hulk they would mine about 1436m3/~~hour~~ minute (according to EFT). Fixed. Or at least made closer to what EFT actually tells you. whoops! fixed... looks like orcas are good to have
Last Wolf Rage For Order	Posted - 2010.03.18 23:04:00 - [4] How would you boost mining? If you simply gave them a ship that mined twice as much as a hulk, they would NOT make twice the isk/hour (except for maybe the first couple of weeks) because Mineral prices would be driven down with all the extra minerals, and they would end up making the same as they did with the hulk. And everyone NOT in the new ship would be screwed.
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.03.18 23:24:00 - [5] Yawn, another bait and switch.
Slade Hoo Amarr Corpse Collection Point	Posted - 2010.03.18 23:54:00 - [6] Originally by: Last Wolf If you simply gave them a ship that mined twice as much as a hulk, they would NOT make twice the isk/hour (except for maybe the first couple of weeks) False. Because of insurance.
Last Wolf Rage For Order	Posted - 2010.03.19 00:00:00 - [7] Edited by: Last Wolf on 19/03/2010 00:02:31 Originally by: Slade Hoo Originally by: Last Wolf If you simply gave them a ship that mined twice as much as a hulk, they would NOT make twice the isk/hour (except for maybe the first couple of weeks) False. Because of insurance. Not for long Also, Even without them nuking insurance payout, high-sec mining WOULD get nerfed. trit/pyrite would cost less, while mega/Zyd would cost more, but the ships would still cost the same. Stuff would just get rebalanced.
Magnus Nordir Caldari Nordir Industries	Posted - 2010.03.19 01:04:00 - [8] Nerf T1 mission loot reprocessing.
Kyra Felann Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.19 08:55:00 - [9] Originally by: Magnus Nordir Nerf T1 mission loot reprocessing. This. If most--if not all--minerals came from mining instead of everywhere else, that would boost mining.
Armoured C Gallente Globaltech Industries The ENTITY.	Posted - 2010.03.19 11:31:00 - [10] this defiently need changing t1 loot ruined mining as a profession tbh
David Grogan Gallente Final Conflict UK Warped Aggression	Posted - 2010.03.19 11:32:00 - [11] Edited by: David Grogan on 19/03/2010 11:34:00 t1 loot from missions & drone alloys ruined mining & now planetary mining is about to ruin ice mining profession. the mackinaw & hulks are about to become useless ships. SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P
Boomershoot Caldari Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2010.03.19 14:47:00 - [12] T1 Mission Loot and Drone alloys didn't ruin mining. Miners ruined Mining. You can kill my ideas, remove my hopes and destroy my future. You'll never take my signature as long as i'm still alive.
Quantum Antomata	Posted - 2010.03.19 16:06:00 - [13] Originally by: David Grogan Edited by: David Grogan on 19/03/2010 11:34:00 t1 loot from missions & drone alloys ruined mining & now planetary mining is about to ruin ice mining profession. the mackinaw & hulks are about to become useless ships. Im not seeing how you think the planetary interaction is going to ruin ice mining. The intent for the planets is to move the (Pos)NPC based items over to the players; ie robotics, uranium etc. You still need the isotopes and stront which still comes from players.
WAuter Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.19 17:12:00 - [14] Remove high sec belts plz
Hesperius No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.03.19 17:18:00 - [15] 314 known Titans stand between you and the objective of getting a mining boost. Ready, set, GO!
Emma Royd Caldari Maddled Gommerils	Posted - 2010.03.19 17:41:00 - [16] Originally by: WAuter Remove high sec belts plz Lol sounds like a plan, then the nasty ebil tough pirates can go into a belt and prove their epeens by shooting a barge without worrying so much about concord, mighty tough of them. There aren't many sensible ways of improving mining, ccp properly tackling the macro mining situation is one of them, something like a random timed popup box on your screen with a simple question such as "what is 5+8" and a box for you to type in the answer. Once the box pops up you have maybe a couple of minutes before it deactivates your lasers so you have time to do stuff if you're battling rats for example. Before the players start complaining "I run 3 miners, haul + make tea for the corp at the same time" been there, seen it and done it many times, if you can't check your client every few minutes then the worst that happens is your lasers deactivate, no biggy but if a macroer has to keep up with inputting stuff into a popup box then how long will he keep it up? I've not kept up with various market figures & reports etc, but I suspect the drone regions had a big part to play in altering the mineral market, lived there for a while and it was minerals a plenty, but not sure how to sort that, can't devalue the drones that much otherwise there would be no point in them being there. There should be some more randomness in mining, instead of having fixed belts with fixed ores, have more random belts in systems with random ore that you need to probe out and scan, or maybe even not know what you're going to get until you get back to station and refine, some days you get lucky, other days you get junk. Bigger mining ships with moar lazurs? not sure about that, the more people mine, then the more the macroers mine, the market gets more minerals on it, supply and demand surely the prices will go down some more and nothing gets sorted. +_+ Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity
RootEmerger	Posted - 2010.03.19 17:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Hesperius 314 known Titans stand between you and the objective of getting a mining boost. Ready, set, GO! Actually titans are some of the best friend for miners, as they are the best mineral sink around - just blow up more of them and you get a nice miner boost....
RootEmerger	Posted - 2010.03.19 17:53:00 - [18] Originally by: Emma Royd Originally by: WAuter Remove high sec belts plz There aren't many sensible ways of improving mining, ccp properly tackling the macro mining situation is one of them, something like a random timed popup box on your screen with a simple question such as "what is 5+8" and a box for you to type in the answer. Once the box pops up you have maybe a couple of minutes before it deactivates your lasers so you have time to do stuff if you're battling rats for example. that would annoy only semi-afk miners, macro programs would adapt faster than players. Quote: There should be some more randomness in mining, instead of having fixed belts with fixed ores, have more random belts in systems with random ore that you need to probe out and scan, or maybe even not know what you're going to get until you get back to station and refine, some days you get lucky, other days you get junk. this would make mining less profitable, not more... the only way to make minerals more valuable is to make so that the market require a lot more of them, by creating mineral sinks, by adding more stuff that players need to be built that's no reusable and by making players blow up their stuff - lets just hope that to build all those new infrastructure needed for planetary interactions you need lots of minerals.
Kharamete	Posted - 2010.03.19 17:53:00 - [19] Mining doesn't really need a boost. With a hulk and orca support you're pretty efficient as a resource harvester. However, the mineral market needs work. It's pretty strange that a convoluted relationship should exist between mineral prices and voluntarily blowing your ship up. Missioners need to be removed from the minerals market, because the meta 0 loot drops that gets reprocessed is a side-effect. If loot remains, at least remove the ability to reprocess it into minerals. Some that run missions make a healthy living selling the meta 1-4 loot, and even some meta 0 items. I don't mind. Since I made the choice that mining was less terribad than missioning as a source for isk and replaced ships, I'm of course speaking in my own self interest here. So I do mind that mission runners in addition to bounties, meta 1-4 items, mission rewards - also are gun-miners. Concord/DED could always introduce bounties on rogue drones to offset the loss of minerals from the drone regions. It would make that part of 0.0 useful again. ---
Emma Royd Caldari Maddled Gommerils	Posted - 2010.03.19 18:48:00 - [20] I'm not sure how a macro would adapt to a question on screen? it's used a lot in forum registrations as antibot measures, as long as the macro can't read the text on the screen (even make the figures images instead of text if they can read text) then I fail to see how a macro can adapt. As for semi-afk miners, a hulk will probably only run for 6 minutes before the cargo is pretty much full unless you've got it fitted for cargo, even then, 17,199m3 (unless you go all the way and use T2 rigs 18,727m3) divide that by say 1300m3 per minute gives about 4 cycles of mining before the cargo is full, even at the full 180second cycle it's 12 mins, if the worst that's happened in that 12 minutes is your lasers have stopped cos you weren't at the keyboard then what's the problem? eve isn't an afk game afaik. Not trying to stir up a hornets nest, but just throwing an idea to try and dissuade macroers from flooding the market with their minerals, can never stop them entirely but anything to slow them down can't be a bad thing. Creating mineral sinks either by increasing build costs, or somehow thinking of other stuff to build? granted this will increase the demand for minerals and mineral prices will rise temporarily then it will settle down again and end up dropping as people realise its profitable to mine again so drag their hulk out of the hangar, give the tyres a kick and launch it towards the nearest asteroid field. Downside to increasing mineral costs is it directly affects the cost of so much else in eve, ships, ammunition, all will go up, so yeah the miners will get more money, but then everything else is more expensive so you're no better off, the only ones who will profit are the dedicated miners who mine to make isk and not to fund pvp, and the macroers who will be rolling in isk. I say all this, but I know nothing about real world economics, nor in game economics, so it could all be rubbish. One fairly easy solution is to cancel insurance payouts on self destruct, I know it's been mentioned in loads of threads but it's about time it was done, and seriously cut down on melting down mission loot, either cut down on the loot, or cut down on the minerals gained by melting it down. +_+ Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity
Hesperius No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.03.19 18:58:00 - [21] Originally by: RootEmerger Actually titans are some of the best friend for miners, as they are the best mineral sink around - just blow up more of them and you get a nice miner boost.... That was the point.
Taedrin Gallente The Green Cross DEFI4NT	Posted - 2010.03.19 19:13:00 - [22] There are two ways to improve the profitability of mining: 1) Decrease supply 2) Increase demand By decreasing supply, you need to convince people to stop mining so much. This means combating macro miners, AFK miners, "The minerals that I mine are free" miners and etc... This could be attained by multiple methods. I would prefer a method which turns mining into a non-trivial task like probing is now. By increasing demand, you need to get people to get their ships blown up more often. I personally feel that the best way to do this is to reintroduce risk into level 4 missions again. Revert level 4 mission difficulty to back before level 4 bounties were decreased. You could also introduce sleeper AI into missions, like CCP was considering. Other things you can do is convince people to start having major 0.0 wars again, convincing people into participating in factional warfare, doing things in low sec in general, etc etc... ---------- Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident" Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
Veliria	Posted - 2010.03.19 19:25:00 - [23] Mining profitability vs risk/reward is fine. That it's mindnumbingly dull and boring is not. I do like the thought of mining huge chunks of rock and making something out of it, if only it was a little more...well...fun.
Deus Ex'Machina The-Machine	Posted - 2010.03.19 21:37:00 - [24] Edited by: Deus Ex''Machina on 19/03/2010 21:37:56 Removing alts completely will fix mining, industry and lots of other things. The more ~this~ goes on, the slimmer the chances to remove alts will get. Remember, alts are NOT real players, they are a copy of a real players, and while said play may be paying for an extra account or more, he's not spreading word of mouth about the game as if he'd be more then one person, nor is he increasing forum activity etc. - Arkanon: EXPLAIN YOURSELF, EVILDOER! Sharkbait: Dude.
small chimp	Posted - 2010.03.19 21:41:00 - [25] This thread is now spiraling down the drain!
Scifi Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.03.19 21:43:00 - [26] I seem to remember a while back that removing or at least reducing the amount of tech 1 "crap loot" and compensating with a higher reward/bounty payout was a planned change. I don't think this ever happened though, I think that would be a rather large boost to us miners. Right now running missions you can end up with a rather large pile of minerals by nights end just by reprocessing your crap loot.
genette devo Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.03.19 21:46:00 - [27] if they somehow made mining actually require miners to be awake and at the keyboard I bet earnings for actual miners would go up.
Boomershoot Caldari Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2010.03.19 21:49:00 - [28] this thread inspired my SoonÖ to come signature You can kill my ideas, remove my hopes and destroy my future. You'll never take my signature as long as i'm still alive.
Kharamete	Posted - 2010.03.19 21:58:00 - [29] Originally by: genette devo if they somehow made mining actually require miners to be awake and at the keyboard I bet earnings for actual miners would go up. The benefit of mining, compared to missioning, is the ability to do other things before you go insane... ---
Deus Ex'Machina The-Machine	Posted - 2010.03.19 22:02:00 - [30] Originally by: genette devo if they somehow made mining actually require miners to be awake and at the keyboard I bet earnings for actual miners would go up. Indeed! Thus, the need to remove alts and other forms of meta gaming. - Arkanon: EXPLAIN YOURSELF, EVILDOER! Sharkbait: Dude.

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