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Kasmir
Caritas.
   |
Posted - 2010.03.18 22:39:00 -
[1]
Like most PVPers I need a way to make isk because I lose a fair amount of ships. Lately I have been inventing and manufacturing tech 2 strip miners. I needed isk and my strip miners werenÆt selling fast, so I figured I would create some demand. On I went to steal ore with a battle badger. After a couple of hours I was really annoyed. Miners are VERY rare, and nobody jet can mines anymore (canÆt blame them, lol). So I went to plan B: Level 4 missions. It got me thinking. If someone trains up to a BS they can make a lot of isk with bounties, and get a large amount of minerals if they loot the mission. Lets say that on average a missioner would get about 500m3/hour of loot (pretty easy to get twice than this). If one were to take the ôcarebearö route and train for a hulk they would mine about 1436m3/hour (according to EFT). Now lets link this to an ore calculator; (I used mineral prices from citadel, your region may vary, and prices change often)
Best high sec ore will get you about 110isk/m3, or about 3million an hour.
low sec ores seem to get you less than some high sec ones.
Best ore in 0.0 (Arknor) will get you 305.3 isk/m3, or just under 9mil an hour.
Missions vary a bit in reward and length, and so it is hard to put an exact value on your total income. I think it is safe to say that bounties and rewards will get you about 5-20 million an hour, and looting will get you an additional 1-2million (guessing on this one, never really noticed). That is about 6-22mil an hour for mission running, vs 3-9 million for mining. In addition to more isk, looting also gives you minerals that you cannot mine in high sec. From what I hear a marauder increases the isk/hour by a large amount, but I have no personal experience flying one, and so I will not comment.
Capital mining ships
Yes, I know these increase mining per time, but lets do some calculations. Lets say we have an orca flown by someone with all level5 skills. They are running 3 mining foreman links; the ones that decrease duration. I do not think the orca can run 3, but it looks like the rorqual can. My calculations show that a hulk pilot would now harvest 38171m3/hour vs the 28720/hour without the boosts. Obviously it would be better to have 2 hulks as opposed to 1 hulk and 1 rorq. If you have 3 hulks and 1 orca you will harvest 114513m3/hour, but if you had 4 hulks you would be getting 114880m3. 4 Hulks +1 orca would mine more than 5 hulks. If you were in that 5 ship mining op (with the orca) you would have to mine for 185 hours before you were to break even. calculations:
152684m3/h with orca
143600m3/h without
9084m3/h difference
*110isk/m3 = ~1million isk/hour
Orca costs 360m, hulk with 3 strip miners 175m, difference is 185m
185m isk/1m isk/hour = 185hours
Summary:
Missions give much better isk/hour than mining.
Don't' get in an orca unless you have 4 buddies in hulks.
Thoughts? You may now begin trolling... |
Tippia
Reikoku
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.18 22:43:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Kasmir
If one were to take the “carebear” route and train for a hulk they would mine about 1436m3/hour minute (according to EFT).
Fixed. Or at least made closer to what EFT actually tells you. |
Kasmir
Caritas.
|
Posted - 2010.03.18 22:56:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Kasmir
If one were to take the ôcarebearö route and train for a hulk they would mine about 1436m3/hour minute (according to EFT).
Fixed. Or at least made closer to what EFT actually tells you.
whoops! fixed... looks like orcas are good to have |
Last Wolf
Rage For Order
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Posted - 2010.03.18 23:04:00 -
[4]
How would you boost mining? If you simply gave them a ship that mined twice as much as a hulk, they would NOT make twice the isk/hour (except for maybe the first couple of weeks) because Mineral prices would be driven down with all the extra minerals, and they would end up making the same as they did with the hulk. And everyone NOT in the new ship would be screwed. |
Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.03.18 23:24:00 -
[5]
Yawn, another bait and switch. |
Slade Hoo
Amarr
Corpse Collection Point
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Posted - 2010.03.18 23:54:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Last Wolf
If you simply gave them a ship that mined twice as much as a hulk, they would NOT make twice the isk/hour (except for maybe the first couple of weeks)
False. Because of insurance. |
Last Wolf
Rage For Order
|
Posted - 2010.03.19 00:00:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Last Wolf on 19/03/2010 00:02:31
Originally by: Slade Hoo
Originally by: Last Wolf
If you simply gave them a ship that mined twice as much as a hulk, they would NOT make twice the isk/hour (except for maybe the first couple of weeks)
False. Because of insurance.
Not for long
Also, Even without them nuking insurance payout, high-sec mining WOULD get nerfed. trit/pyrite would cost less, while mega/Zyd would cost more, but the ships would still cost the same. Stuff would just get rebalanced. |
Magnus Nordir
Caldari
Nordir Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.19 01:04:00 -
[8]
Nerf T1 mission loot reprocessing. |
Kyra Felann
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.19 08:55:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Magnus Nordir
Nerf T1 mission loot reprocessing.
This. If most--if not all--minerals came from mining instead of everywhere else, that would boost mining.
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Armoured C
Gallente
Globaltech Industries
The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2010.03.19 11:31:00 -
[10]
this defiently need changing
t1 loot ruined mining as a profession tbh
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David Grogan
Gallente
Final Conflict UK
Warped Aggression
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Posted - 2010.03.19 11:32:00 -
[11]
Edited by: David Grogan on 19/03/2010 11:34:00
t1 loot from missions & drone alloys ruined mining
& now planetary mining is about to ruin ice mining profession.
the mackinaw & hulks are about to become useless ships.
SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P |
Boomershoot
Caldari
Suddenly Ninjas
|
Posted - 2010.03.19 14:47:00 -
[12]
T1 Mission Loot and Drone alloys didn't ruin mining.
Miners ruined Mining.
You can kill my ideas, remove my hopes and destroy my future. You'll never take my signature as long as i'm still alive. |
Quantum Antomata
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Posted - 2010.03.19 16:06:00 -
[13]
Originally by: David Grogan
Edited by: David Grogan on 19/03/2010 11:34:00
t1 loot from missions & drone alloys ruined mining
& now planetary mining is about to ruin ice mining profession.
the mackinaw & hulks are about to become useless ships.
Im not seeing how you think the planetary interaction is going to ruin ice mining. The intent for the planets is to move the (Pos)NPC based items over to the players; ie robotics, uranium etc. You still need the isotopes and stront which still comes from players.
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WAuter
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.19 17:12:00 -
[14]
Remove high sec belts plz
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Hesperius
No Salvation
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.03.19 17:18:00 -
[15]
314 known Titans stand between you and the objective of getting a mining boost. Ready, set, GO!
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Emma Royd
Caldari
Maddled Gommerils
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Posted - 2010.03.19 17:41:00 -
[16]
Originally by: WAuter
Remove high sec belts plz
Lol sounds like a plan, then the nasty ebil tough pirates can go into a belt and prove their epeens by shooting a barge without worrying so much about concord, mighty tough of them.
There aren't many sensible ways of improving mining, ccp properly tackling the macro mining situation is one of them, something like a random timed popup box on your screen with a simple question such as "what is 5+8" and a box for you to type in the answer.
Once the box pops up you have maybe a couple of minutes before it deactivates your lasers so you have time to do stuff if you're battling rats for example.
Before the players start complaining "I run 3 miners, haul + make tea for the corp at the same time" been there, seen it and done it many times, if you can't check your client every few minutes then the worst that happens is your lasers deactivate, no biggy but if a macroer has to keep up with inputting stuff into a popup box then how long will he keep it up?
I've not kept up with various market figures & reports etc, but I suspect the drone regions had a big part to play in altering the mineral market, lived there for a while and it was minerals a plenty, but not sure how to sort that, can't devalue the drones that much otherwise there would be no point in them being there.
There should be some more randomness in mining, instead of having fixed belts with fixed ores, have more random belts in systems with random ore that you need to probe out and scan, or maybe even not know what you're going to get until you get back to station and refine, some days you get lucky, other days you get junk.
Bigger mining ships with moar lazurs? not sure about that, the more people mine, then the more the macroers mine, the market gets more minerals on it, supply and demand surely the prices will go down some more and nothing gets sorted.
+_+
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity |
RootEmerger
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Posted - 2010.03.19 17:46:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Hesperius
314 known Titans stand between you and the objective of getting a mining boost. Ready, set, GO!
Actually titans are some of the best friend for miners, as they are the best mineral sink around - just blow up more of them and you get a nice miner boost....
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RootEmerger
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Posted - 2010.03.19 17:53:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Emma Royd
Originally by: WAuter
Remove high sec belts plz
There aren't many sensible ways of improving mining, ccp properly tackling the macro mining situation is one of them, something like a random timed popup box on your screen with a simple question such as "what is 5+8" and a box for you to type in the answer.
Once the box pops up you have maybe a couple of minutes before it deactivates your lasers so you have time to do stuff if you're battling rats for example.
that would annoy only semi-afk miners, macro programs would adapt faster than players.
Quote:
There should be some more randomness in mining, instead of having fixed belts with fixed ores, have more random belts in systems with random ore that you need to probe out and scan, or maybe even not know what you're going to get until you get back to station and refine, some days you get lucky, other days you get junk.
this would make mining less profitable, not more...
the only way to make minerals more valuable is to make so that the market require a lot more of them, by creating mineral sinks, by adding more stuff that players need to be built that's no reusable and by making players blow up their stuff - lets just hope that to build all those new infrastructure needed for planetary interactions you need lots of minerals.
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Kharamete
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Posted - 2010.03.19 17:53:00 -
[19]
Mining doesn't really need a boost. With a hulk and orca support you're pretty efficient as a resource harvester.
However, the mineral market needs work. It's pretty strange that a convoluted relationship should exist between mineral prices and voluntarily blowing your ship up.
Missioners need to be removed from the minerals market, because the meta 0 loot drops that gets reprocessed is a side-effect. If loot remains, at least remove the ability to reprocess it into minerals. Some that run missions make a healthy living selling the meta 1-4 loot, and even some meta 0 items. I don't mind.
Since I made the choice that mining was less terribad than missioning as a source for isk and replaced ships, I'm of course speaking in my own self interest here. So I do mind that mission runners in addition to bounties, meta 1-4 items, mission rewards - also are gun-miners.
Concord/DED could always introduce bounties on rogue drones to offset the loss of minerals from the drone regions. It would make that part of 0.0 useful again.
---
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Emma Royd
Caldari
Maddled Gommerils
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Posted - 2010.03.19 18:48:00 -
[20]
I'm not sure how a macro would adapt to a question on screen? it's used a lot in forum registrations as antibot measures, as long as the macro can't read the text on the screen (even make the figures images instead of text if they can read text) then I fail to see how a macro can adapt.
As for semi-afk miners, a hulk will probably only run for 6 minutes before the cargo is pretty much full unless you've got it fitted for cargo, even then, 17,199m3 (unless you go all the way and use T2 rigs 18,727m3) divide that by say 1300m3 per minute gives about 4 cycles of mining before the cargo is full, even at the full 180second cycle it's 12 mins, if the worst that's happened in that 12 minutes is your lasers have stopped cos you weren't at the keyboard then what's the problem? eve isn't an afk game afaik.
Not trying to stir up a hornets nest, but just throwing an idea to try and dissuade macroers from flooding the market with their minerals, can never stop them entirely but anything to slow them down can't be a bad thing.
Creating mineral sinks either by increasing build costs, or somehow thinking of other stuff to build? granted this will increase the demand for minerals and mineral prices will rise temporarily then it will settle down again and end up dropping as people realise its profitable to mine again so drag their hulk out of the hangar, give the tyres a kick and launch it towards the nearest asteroid field.
Downside to increasing mineral costs is it directly affects the cost of so much else in eve, ships, ammunition, all will go up, so yeah the miners will get more money, but then everything else is more expensive so you're no better off, the only ones who will profit are the dedicated miners who mine to make isk and not to fund pvp, and the macroers who will be rolling in isk.
I say all this, but I know nothing about real world economics, nor in game economics, so it could all be rubbish.
One fairly easy solution is to cancel insurance payouts on self destruct, I know it's been mentioned in loads of threads but it's about time it was done, and seriously cut down on melting down mission loot, either cut down on the loot, or cut down on the minerals gained by melting it down.
+_+
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity |
Hesperius
No Salvation
War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.03.19 18:58:00 -
[21]
Originally by: RootEmerger
Actually titans are some of the best friend for miners, as they are the best mineral sink around - just blow up more of them and you get a nice miner boost....
That was the point. 
|
Taedrin
Gallente
The Green Cross
DEFI4NT
|
Posted - 2010.03.19 19:13:00 -
[22]
There are two ways to improve the profitability of mining:
1) Decrease supply
2) Increase demand
By decreasing supply, you need to convince people to stop mining so much. This means combating macro miners, AFK miners, "The minerals that I mine are free" miners and etc... This could be attained by multiple methods. I would prefer a method which turns mining into a non-trivial task like probing is now.
By increasing demand, you need to get people to get their ships blown up more often. I personally feel that the best way to do this is to reintroduce risk into level 4 missions again. Revert level 4 mission difficulty to back before level 4 bounties were decreased. You could also introduce sleeper AI into missions, like CCP was considering. Other things you can do is convince people to start having major 0.0 wars again, convincing people into participating in factional warfare, doing things in low sec in general, etc etc...
----------
Originally by: Dr Fighter
"how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
|
Veliria
|
Posted - 2010.03.19 19:25:00 -
[23]
Mining profitability vs risk/reward is fine.
That it's mindnumbingly dull and boring is not.
I do like the thought of mining huge chunks of rock and making something out of it, if only it was a little more...well...fun.
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Deus Ex'Machina
The-Machine
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Posted - 2010.03.19 21:37:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Deus Ex''Machina on 19/03/2010 21:37:56
Removing alts completely will fix mining, industry and lots of other things.
The more ~this~ goes on, the slimmer the chances to remove alts will get.
Remember, alts are NOT real players, they are a copy of a real players, and while said play may be paying for an extra account or more, he's not spreading word of mouth about the game as if he'd be more then one person, nor is he increasing forum activity etc.
-
Arkanon: EXPLAIN YOURSELF, EVILDOER!
Sharkbait: Dude. |
small chimp
|
Posted - 2010.03.19 21:41:00 -
[25]
This thread is now spiraling down the drain!
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Scifi
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.03.19 21:43:00 -
[26]
I seem to remember a while back that removing or at least reducing the amount of tech 1 "crap loot" and compensating with a higher reward/bounty payout was a planned change. I don't think this ever happened though, I think that would be a rather large boost to us miners. Right now running missions you can end up with a rather large pile of minerals by nights end just by reprocessing your crap loot.
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genette devo
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.03.19 21:46:00 -
[27]
if they somehow made mining actually require
miners to be awake and at the keyboard I bet earnings for actual
miners would go up.
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Boomershoot
Caldari
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.03.19 21:49:00 -
[28]
this thread inspired my SoonÖ to come signature
You can kill my ideas, remove my hopes and destroy my future. You'll never take my signature as long as i'm still alive. |
Kharamete
|
Posted - 2010.03.19 21:58:00 -
[29]
Originally by: genette devo
if they somehow made mining actually require
miners to be awake and at the keyboard I bet earnings for actual
miners would go up.
The benefit of mining, compared to missioning, is the ability to do other things before you go insane...
---
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Deus Ex'Machina
The-Machine
|
Posted - 2010.03.19 22:02:00 -
[30]
Originally by: genette devo
if they somehow made mining actually require
miners to be awake and at the keyboard I bet earnings for actual
miners would go up.
Indeed! Thus, the need to remove alts and other forms of meta gaming.
-
Arkanon: EXPLAIN YOURSELF, EVILDOER!
Sharkbait: Dude. |
Maven Deltor
|
Posted - 2010.03.20 00:27:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Maven Deltor on 20/03/2010 00:28:06
Originally by: Deus Ex'Machina
Originally by: genette devo
if they somehow made mining actually require
miners to be awake and at the keyboard I bet earnings for actual
miners would go up.
Indeed! Thus, the need to remove alts and other forms of meta gaming.
How would removing alts make miners need to pay attention?
The problem I see with mining is:
1) There is zero risk (aside from the casual can flipper)
2) There is no skill (mining might actually cause you to lose brain synapses)
3) And there is no variation in yield (0%, 5%, & 10% ores are not the kind I mean)
If there was a risk to mining, miners would have reason to charge some sort of premium. However, when a fraking script can perform better than a human, the time value added is minimum. Macros are always paying attention, never missing cycles due to web browsing or watching tv, this makes them better than the average human at the task.
If there was some sort of skill, I don't know what, but something that I could do that would effect my overall yield, I'd be happier. Fine tuning my lasers to hit that rich vein. Or carefully skirting the worthless residue. Probably best played out in some sort of new UI window, where the goals are understood, like scanning. The third item on my list probably ties into the second items reward or consequence for performance with your interaction.
Mining is so basic, and bland. You need alts just to feel like you can do something more after you get a hulk. Please CCP, give us fun in mining. Fix profits after, but fix the fun now.
edit: typos
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Jish Ness
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Posted - 2010.03.20 02:35:00 -
[32]
I'm personally fine with mining the way it is now. And as said, its the mission loot that screws with mining. Lowsec ores aren't worth as much because most of your high ends come from reprocessing T1 loot.
Remove meta 0 from loot, and you might actually find those lowsec ores worth something.
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Kephael
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.03.20 02:42:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Maven Deltor
Edited by: Maven Deltor on 20/03/2010 00:28:06
Originally by: Deus Ex'Machina
Originally by: genette devo
if they somehow made mining actually require
miners to be awake and at the keyboard I bet earnings for actual
miners would go up.
Indeed! Thus, the need to remove alts and other forms of meta gaming.
How would removing alts make miners need to pay attention?
The problem I see with mining is:
1) There is zero risk (aside from the casual can flipper)
2) There is no skill (mining might actually cause you to lose brain synapses)
3) And there is no variation in yield (0%, 5%, & 10% ores are not the kind I mean)
If there was a risk to mining, miners would have reason to charge some sort of premium. However, when a fraking script can perform better than a human, the time value added is minimum. Macros are always paying attention, never missing cycles due to web browsing or watching tv, this makes them better than the average human at the task.
If there was some sort of skill, I don't know what, but something that I could do that would effect my overall yield, I'd be happier. Fine tuning my lasers to hit that rich vein. Or carefully skirting the worthless residue. Probably best played out in some sort of new UI window, where the goals are understood, like scanning. The third item on my list probably ties into the second items reward or consequence for performance with your interaction.
Mining is so basic, and bland. You need alts just to feel like you can do something more after you get a hulk. Please CCP, give us fun in mining. Fix profits after, but fix the fun now.
edit: typos
There's no risk doing missions either, my perma run CNR churns through L4s without a care in the world.
__________________________________________
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Jerid Verges
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Posted - 2010.03.20 07:32:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Jerid Verges on 20/03/2010 07:33:45
Originally by: Boomershoot
T1 Mission Loot and Drone alloys didn't ruin mining.
Miners ruined Mining.
This is absolute crap. Does anyone remember CCP's report of sources of Minerals from 2008?
About 18% of Noxcium generated came from Miners. More then 50% came from Drone regions.
And if anything has changed in the last 2 years I'd bet even less Nox comes from Mining.
If more minerals come from loot and drone regions then mining of course mining as a profession dies.
high ends produced by drone regions need to be severely nerfed. Especially Nox and Zyn. And loot needs to be culled as well.
Then mining will actually be profitable.
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Kharylien
Gallente
Blackcog Incorporated
|
Posted - 2010.03.20 08:31:00 -
[35]
As I see it, the trouble with the call to boost mining is that it's a call to boost the reward for a zero-risk activity.
Personally, I think both missions *and* mining are fine. I run missions, and I reprocess all my loot, and it's handy, but it's not nearly enough to supply even my own tiny mineral needs. So I mine as well - and I buy Zydrine and Megacyte because I can't get nearly enough. (I would buy Noxcium, too, but I make trips out of Gallente space just to mine pyroxeres.)
Mining does make money, and mission-running for minerals takes a fair amount of effort and hassle to shift the loot - my Dominix only carries 600m^3 at a time and a chunk of that space is filled with ammo.
So it still takes effort and hassle, and the mission-running reprocessor still has to train up the skills for refining and so on. (And Scrapmetal Processing is harder to perfect than ore processing.)
Right now, mining is almost zero-risk and almost zero effort. (I agree it's boring, but take that up with the person holding a gun to your head and forcing you to do it.) I don't see why other professional paths should be devalued just to make mining more profitable.
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Julius Rigel
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Posted - 2010.03.20 11:21:00 -
[36]
Mining doesn't need a boost.
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Clb
The Intersect
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Posted - 2010.03.20 11:28:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Kharylien
As I see it, the trouble with the call to boost mining is that it's a call to boost the reward for a zero-risk activity.
...
I don't see why other professional paths should be devalued just to make mining more profitable.
Because mining and running L4s in highsec have the same amount of risk but one has a much higher reward.
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Deus Ex'Machina
The-Machine
|
Posted - 2010.03.20 11:48:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Clb
Originally by: Kharylien
As I see it, the trouble with the call to boost mining is that it's a call to boost the reward for a zero-risk activity.
...
I don't see why other professional paths should be devalued just to make mining more profitable.
Because mining and running L4s in highsec have the same amount of risk but one has a much higher reward.
Well, as i said earlier, removing alts would "fix" this.
Think of all those "free" minerals being generated, I would guess there would be at least a 4x buff to the isk/hour generated by miners ... without alts, bringing high sec mining and missioning in line with each other.
-
Arkanon: EXPLAIN YOURSELF, EVILDOER!
Sharkbait: Dude. |
David Grogan
Gallente
Final Conflict UK
Warped Aggression
|
Posted - 2010.03.20 14:45:00 -
[39]
Edited by: David Grogan on 20/03/2010 14:46:06
Originally by: Quantum Antomata
Im not seeing how you think the planetary interaction is going to ruin ice mining. The intent for the planets is to move the (Pos)NPC based items over to the players; ie robotics, uranium etc. You still need the isotopes and stront which still comes from players.
go on the test server .... planets yeild isotopes & other ice products .... thus killing off the role of the mackinaw
SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P |
Taedrin
Gallente
The Green Cross
DEFI4NT
|
Posted - 2010.03.20 17:30:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Taedrin on 20/03/2010 17:30:15
Originally by: Scifi
I seem to remember a while back that removing or at least reducing the amount of tech 1 "crap loot" and compensating with a higher reward/bounty payout was a planned change. I don't think this ever happened though, I think that would be a rather large boost to us miners. Right now running missions you can end up with a rather large pile of minerals by nights end just by reprocessing your crap loot.
Actually, you are remembering the opposite. Once upon a time, Level 4 income used to be almost entirely from bounties. Nobody was looting their missions. CCP decided that they didn't like this so they halved mission bounties, but doubled the amount of loot that dropped. This was to convince people to do more than just blitz missions, to train up haulers to come pick up loot after the mission (and when salvaging came out, to train for salvaging which originally had rather steep skill requirements)
----------
Originally by: Dr Fighter
"how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
|
lookatzebirdie
|
Posted - 2010.03.20 20:25:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Kharylien
As I see it, the trouble with the call to boost mining is that it's a call to boost the reward for a zero-risk activity.
Coming from a mission runner that is laughable. Hisec mission running is as low risk as mining to all but the most incompetent noobs. Attempting to pass off NPCs shooting you as risk which justifies the massive earning potential of hisec missions is beyond ****ed.
Hisec missions need a serious nerfing, STARTING with vastly reduced loot drops that include NO T1 and mining DOES NEED HELP. I don't even mine and I can see this.
1. get rid of T1 mission loot
2. give the drone regions bounty rats like everywhere else.
That's a good start
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Amberlyn Stardreamer
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Posted - 2010.03.20 20:43:00 -
[42]
1. Annoying legitimate miners with pop-up windows is a very poor solution to anything. In addition to more technical solutions available to skilled programmers, macroers can easily have one person attending a bank of accounts to monitor for this.
2. Spending most of one's time in ships that can be easily killed by minimally trained characters in T1 frigates is hardly the definition of risk-free. Especially with insurance seeing to it that its essentially impossible for suicide gankers to lose anything when killing hulks and haulers.
3. Greater interactivity would be a significant improvement in gameplay for legitimate miners. I have to believe that the effects it would have on the mineral markets would be unpredictable because any drop in macroers could be made up by more legitimate miners drawn in to an activity that was now more fun for more people. 
4. I agree that nerfing T1 loot drops would be a good start at re-balancing the profitability levels of various professions.
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Denihol
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Posted - 2010.03.20 21:31:00 -
[43]
I don't see anything wrong with the way mining is...
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Maven Deltor
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Posted - 2010.03.21 15:22:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Maven Deltor on 21/03/2010 15:26:30
Originally by: Deus Ex'Machina
Well, as i said earlier, removing alts would "fix" this.
Think of all those "free" minerals being generated, I would guess there would be at least a 4x buff to the isk/hour generated by miners ... without alts, bringing high sec mining and missioning in line with each other.
You're going to have to explain this one more. Are you defining alts as the second and third character slot on my account? I can only have one character on at a time, so no free minerals there. If you are defining alts as second accounts, again still not free. I have 3 accounts, and the bill shows up for all three. If they were free minerals, I'd just get one bill. I understand your reasoning for thinking this way, but really you're just wrong. Even if CCP agreed with you, how would they enforce it? I could just use the simple excuse "The secondary account is my brothers, and we share an IP." Not to mention, CCP is not going to enact anything to limit the amount of accounts a person could have. That would be counter productive to their bottom line.
Originally by: David Grogan
go on the test server .... planets yeild isotopes & other ice products .... thus killing off the role of the mackinaw
I'm sure you're a smart guy who reads the dev blogs right? Then this is just a reminder to you that the products produced by PI on SISI are not the real products that will be produced when Tyrannis goes live. CCP did this so prospectors can't profit from knowledge gained while testing.
Originally by: lookatzebirdie
Coming from a mission runner that is laughable. Hisec mission running is as low risk as mining to all but the most incompetent noobs. Attempting to pass off NPCs shooting you as risk which justifies the massive earning potential of hisec missions is beyond ****ed.
Hisec missions need a serious nerfing, STARTING with vastly reduced loot drops that include NO T1 and mining DOES NEED HELP. I don't even mine and I can see this.
1. get rid of T1 mission loot
2. give the drone regions bounty rats like everywhere else.
That's a good start
I agree with t1 loot. There was another thread about mission loot, and the OPs suggestion was remove meta 0 loot from missions, and make meta 1-4 loot refine into salvage. I thought this was a creative idea. Hope CCP considers it :)
Turning drones into rats just like every other rat kinda sucks. More appropiately, drone drops need to be adjusted so the amount of minerals coming from drones is in line with the rest of the game. Currently drones spit out a lot of minerals. Simply modifying the reprocess formula for drone drops could quickly fix this w/o losing the fictional flavor of drones.
To help this thread stay on topic (remember we're talking about MINING, not drones, or PI, or accounts), mining needs boosts. But when I say boosts, I'm not talking about "more minerals" or even "more profits for miners". I'm talking about making mining more interesting to sit through.
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Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2010.03.21 16:08:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Magnus Nordir
Nerf T1 mission loot reprocessing.
This is the right answer.
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Boogie Bobby
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Posted - 2010.03.21 16:43:00 -
[46]
There's no one answer here. Part of the problem is T1 loot, part macros, part overabundance of mins and part people who don't value their time.
If CCP was a little more aggressive with macros, reduced the loot table a small amount and cut the size and quality of belts a similar value you still couldn't do anything about the people who fail to value their time, in fact you'd get more of them because the price of mins would rise. Look how many people are willing to truck it out at current levels!
TL:DR the only long term fix for mining is to get less people to do it.
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Mika Cavillo
Ranni Bar and Grill
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Posted - 2010.03.21 17:27:00 -
[47]
Quote:
You could also introduce sleeper AI into missions
+1 this is a fun idea
Macro'geddon anyone?
Also, it seems to me that alot of t1 loot from lev4 missions depends ON THE MISSION. No bounty npc's have great loot, and normal ships 'might' give you loot.
And since im 100% in lowsec, refining/looting/salvaging the 1 out of 10 missions just to make ammo doesnt seem that bad.
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Skawl
The Venatus Group
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Posted - 2010.03.21 18:25:00 -
[48]
So, we need:
- All belts need scanning down, except in the starter systems. Make the sites fairly abundant but contain relatively little volume (compared to present day belts). This makes mining harder to macro.
- Basic T1 no longer drops in missions. (Perhaps except tutorial missions - I know I used a lot of the items that dropped when I was running them, even if they weren't ideal since I had no money or skills for 'proper' fits).
- Meta x items refine to salvage. This reduces some of the minerals coming in.
- Some sort of invention type mechanic to build meta x items (to act as a mineral sink and to provide a use for the meta x salvage.).
Problem solved. World hunger or poverty next guys?
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Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.03.21 18:30:00 -
[49]
Still waiting on the system-wide asteroid belts and minable comets promised in Shiva (Exodus) myself.
-----------
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Deal with it.
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Jeneroux
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.21 19:05:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Jeneroux on 21/03/2010 19:07:25
Attack macro people with IP and automated financial audit to flag what is not reasonable activity. CCP has statistics to define what is reasonable. Banks in real world have anti money laundering software to identify and flag unusual activity. It can be done and is being done in real world everyday. In closed system like Eve is not so big to do.
On the alts.. if I limited clients to only 1 account per address I would lose maybe half of my business.
On the mining.. the macro miner contaminates the perspective of what the real miner does. The real miner in Eve is unknown statistic.
Interesting that I see miner activity in worm hole all the time. the miner is becoming common in worm holes. Even with this "risk".
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Mr Epeen
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Posted - 2010.03.21 19:14:00 -
[51]
Best thing for mining is to increase need for minerals.
How to do that. Well, lots of suggestions in this thread from the clueless, but I have a few of my own that make just as little sense.
1)Cosmic anomalies within napped 0.0 alliances randomly warp entire fleets, one from each alliance, into deep space. A wormhole connecting back into known space will open only when the anomaly detects the signature of one alliance only.
2) Once and hour a random low sec gate will overload it's capacitor for some RP reason and send out a destructive burst of energy that will destroy any campers within 220kms of it. These ships will be utterly vaporized. No loot. No salvage.
In both cases the powers that be will neglect to mention these losses to the insurance companies so any pilots that lose ships are just sh*t out of luck.
There you go. Massive mineral losses in the form of ship destruction. Mineral prices rise, happy miners abound. More ships need replacing means happy manufacturers. PVP for the big alliances make EVE fun again. And even a little fear of instant destruction to perk an otherwise boring evening at the gank camp.
Everybody wins 
Mr Epeen 
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Destruction Theory
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Posted - 2010.03.21 22:27:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Boomershoot
T1 Mission Loot and Drone alloys didn't ruin mining.
Miners ruined Mining.
I'm assuming that you say that because there are so many miners that it has made it less profitable to be a miner then to be a mission runner. Lets look at this for a moment.
If you have 200,000 miners, the mineral prices, will of course, fall.
If you have 200,000 mission runners, then... the bounties change? Um.. No. They don't.
How is that fair? Tell me. I'm not saying how to fix it. Or that mission loot and drone alloys DID ruin mining, but I'm saying something HAS to be done. Which is probably the opposite of your attitude based on your post.
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Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
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Posted - 2010.03.21 22:55:00 -
[53]
"mining needs a boost" - rorq was introduced - high-ends slightly declined
"mining needs a boost" - orca was introduced - minerals dropped and insurance fraud became feasable (more often)
"mining needs a boost" - wormholes gave ABC ores to everyone - high ends declined
"mining needs a boost" - veldspar spawns daily in empiure now - trit dropped in favor of pyerite
"mining needs a boost" - "new" mining plexes gave more ABC ores to everyone - high ends declined some more
stop hurting yourselves 
-
putting the gist back into logistics |
Keenky
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Posted - 2010.03.23 11:21:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Keenky on 23/03/2010 11:21:44
Haha, just because poor pirate cant find way to make ISK the mioning should get a boost that more ppl mine. This idea only can come from PKers hehehe.
I would never let an ore can drift. I have an orca, who has enough space. Even if mining would get a boost, miners would just get less roids, since more ppl mine which would drop the prices on ore, so more miners is more chance for ore thiefs, but not a boost for miners. Though nobody would steal ore cans cause they are then worth like .. nothing? As said before: 0-int idea.
Sure, low/0sec ores are worth more. But only few miners fly to there. Once u r there, u get ganked. As long as the prices for those ores keep high enough, loosing ships is expensive. Means also, that only cheap ships can be used for ganking. This makes at least for skilled miners life more safe. I would like to see ships become even more expensive. The higher the loss, the less PKers, gankers and other psychos :)
No boost for mining pls :)
Keenky
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Asuka Smith
Gallente
Noir.
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Posted - 2010.03.23 12:17:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Asuka Smith on 23/03/2010 12:18:47
Well about time for another of these threads I suppose,
1. The majority of minerals comes from reprocessing various items, rather than from reprocessing raw ore. Remove T1 loot, make named loot more rare. That's right, all the players in mining barges generate less minerals than all the players reprocessing in their L4 station and their ilk.
2. Adjust ore availability and mineral requirements for production, it is a travesty that low-sec ore is harder to mine and less profitable compared to high-sec ore.
3. Try and find a way to re-purpose the drone regions so that instead of providing JUST minerals they provide something else as well so they are not such a downward burden on mineral prices.
4. A dynamic human interaction based mini-game for mining, with results of more or less minerals depending. Let's make mining as exciting as PVP with some sort of game that is easy to learn hard to master for mining that is genuinely enjoyable.
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Andy3021
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Posted - 2010.03.23 12:53:00 -
[56]
I agree with a few of the posts in here but the most important is I was a miner. I fly a hulk, but at this point its sooo much more profitable to just get in my drake and solo 2-3 lvl 4 missions then mining for 2 hours its more interesting too.(thats subjective to opinions)
But everyone should agree missions should drop less gear maybe take anything below meta 4 out of the droplists that would make the risk/reward balanced for lvl 4s and mining.
Miners are a dieing race being replaced 10 to 1 by macro miners make some sort of update to mining that requires people to scan a roid get a visual cue on it and choose the best spot to mine acording to a list of minirals they want and what they dont want.
Diffrent areas on a roid could put out other types of ore because in space astroids collide all the time(seriosly if there was air out there it would be noisy XD)
to conclude my mega text wall fix the risk/reward and all players will profit.
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Princess Jodi
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.23 13:32:00 -
[57]
There was a very interesting chart in the Insurance Nerf thread, which showed the distribution of minerals gained from Mining, T1 loot and Drone Alloys. While most of the Trit was mined, half of the other minerals came from T1 loot + Drone Alloys. What that means is that Mining is NOT the cause of oversupply. Other means are just as likely to provide the minerals.
Coupled with the current oversupply of minerals, the insurance nerf is projected to cause a 30% drop in mineral prices.
So mining doesn't need a 'boost', but rather Mission Loot and Drone Alloys need a 'nerf'. There is no need to produce MORE minerals, but rather a need to produce LESS.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.03.23 13:51:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Abrazzar on 23/03/2010 13:51:46
Mining needs a boost!
Nerf mining!
(and loot drops and drone alloys, too)
--------
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Hrodgar Ortal
Minmatar
Ma'adim Logistics
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Posted - 2010.03.23 14:08:00 -
[59]
Mining is only "risk-free" when done in high-sec. Where the pay is around 6m/h and hulk. Compared to the just as risk-free occupation of high-sec missions which give from 15m and upwards per hour.
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Tippia
Reikoku
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.23 14:18:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Andy3021
But everyone should agree missions should drop less gear maybe take anything below meta 4 1 out of the droplists that would make the risk/reward balanced for lvl 4s and mining.
Fix'd. Otherwise, you'd effectively remove all Meta 1–3 items from the game completely.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Boomershoot
Caldari
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.03.23 14:37:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal
"risk-free"
I Sniped just to say:
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Lrrp
Minmatar
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.03.23 15:51:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Lrrp on 23/03/2010 15:55:41
edit to make new yopic
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