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Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
79
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Posted - 2012.07.04 16:19:00 -
[61] - Quote
"Accounts are not software".
!!! Not that I don't agree with EvE accounts not being legal to sell !!!
But serial keys, online activation and other similar stuff are neither software. Would you pay for Windows 7/8 if you did not get the key? |
Orecia
Meritoc Industries Inc. SRS.
1
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Posted - 2012.07.04 16:23:00 -
[62] - Quote
Technically the serial keys ARE the software, it's just a new way of easy distribution. |
Mallak Azaria
273
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Posted - 2012.07.04 16:26:00 -
[63] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:"Accounts are not software".
!!! Not that I don't agree with EvE accounts not being legal to sell !!!
But serial keys, online activation and other similar stuff are neither software. Would you pay for Windows 7/8 if you did not get the key?
People pay for that? News to me. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
79
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Posted - 2012.07.04 16:27:00 -
[64] - Quote
Then should an account not technically be the software too? I mean you do need it to play. Just like you need the serial to use windows. Windows can run extremely limited after the activation timer runs out, just as you can run eve without getting to log in without the account |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
79
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Posted - 2012.07.04 16:28:00 -
[65] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Hannott Thanos wrote:"Accounts are not software".
!!! Not that I don't agree with EvE accounts not being legal to sell !!!
But serial keys, online activation and other similar stuff are neither software. Would you pay for Windows 7/8 if you did not get the key? People pay for that? News to me.
Harr harr harr. RL sec: -10.0 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8363
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Posted - 2012.07.04 16:29:00 -
[66] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:But serial keys, online activation and other similar stuff are neither software. No, they are tokens to prove the ownership of the software licenses that are the subject of the ruling.
Quote:Then should an account not technically be the software too? I mean you do need it to play. No. You need an account to alter stuff in CCP's databases. You don't need an account to download and run the software (which is what the GÇö usually free GÇö license covers). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Soundwave Plays Diablo
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
10
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Posted - 2012.07.04 16:33:00 -
[67] - Quote
ITT internet rules lawyers determine the the "L" in EULA means something other than license.
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that beast
Disconnected. Choke Point
1
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Posted - 2012.07.04 17:23:00 -
[68] - Quote
Well, to start with, we seem to be forgetting that a large portion of the EU rulings are, to put it simply, ridiculous. The whole rights thing... non, only if something is hidden from you should you have the right to complain. Otherwise you should just be more careful with what you buy. Sometimes a little choice is a nice thing yno...
Before anyone goes "rargh Americans don't know what rights are", I'm not an American, I live, breath and work in the EU.
Now.
No, software keys etc are not licenses, they are representations of a license, like proof of ID. You can show your ID to a banker to prove that an account is yours. You can't show an ID to a shopkeeper to pay for something (ignoring recent developments in the whole oyster-card like payment systems). My point being, that you can use your ID as proof that you own the money (so the banker will give it to you) but you can't use it as money (I.E. being able to give some part of it to a shopkeeper for his wares).
With me so far?
Awesome.
Something which occurred to me whilst I was reading all the rage throughout, and all the well reasoned arguments, was that you could argue, theoretically, that your account/character is an in game personification of you. It is a virtual representation of your being, mind, soul, whatnot, and as such, I suspect that an accomplished lawyer (which I am most certainly not, although maybe Mittens could help...lol) will easily be able to argue that selling your character for real life money is tantamount to selling yourself, and lead from there to prostitution. I'm pretty sure the EU rulings don't make that legal...
Now of course, that does bring into view the issue of character trading for in game money, but again I'm sure a sharp mind could work around that.
Might I remind you that, in order to sell an account, you would have to give away your password to someone else, and THAT is not covered by the rulings, but most certainly IS covered by the EULA. So if the EU want to stop CCP stopping you giving your account to people for money, so be it, but they (CCP) CAN ban the account for you giving away the password. And, as seems appropriate given the level of dependency issues in this thread, the game is useless without the account, which in turn is useless without the password.
The password is not software and isn't a license, and so won't be covered by the rulings. If the EU decides to make selling passwords and flaunting them around legal, then God help every one of us...
Yours.
TB |
Othran
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
212
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Posted - 2012.07.04 18:04:00 -
[69] - Quote
that beast wrote: The password is not software and isn't a license, and so won't be covered by the rulings.
Wrong.
The ruling is clear - if the software requires an online account/authentication/activation to fully function then that forms part of the sale. If the authentication/whatever cannot be separated from the software and the s/w manufacturer is unwilling to provide a new method of authentication then the account IS part of the software licence. That was one of the things Oracle wanted to establish but it backfired spectacularly on them.
Eve isn't affected unless it goes FTP in which case all bets are off. For now its quite clear that software with a recurring charge (ie a subscription) is not covered by the ruling. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8365
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Posted - 2012.07.04 18:12:00 -
[70] - Quote
In fact, the only thing that is a bit unclear is how you get a software license for EVE, since you need one in order to open an accountGǪ
They do seem to say in the EULA that they basically grant you a license for reading the EULA and/or by downloading the client. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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that beast
Disconnected. Choke Point
1
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Posted - 2012.07.04 18:15:00 -
[71] - Quote
Othran wrote:that beast wrote: The password is not software and isn't a license, and so won't be covered by the rulings.
Wrong. The ruling is clear - if the software requires an online account/authentication/activation to fully function then that forms part of the sale. If the authentication/whatever cannot be separated from the software and the s/w manufacturer is unwilling to provide a new method of authentication then the account IS part of the software licence. That was one of the things Oracle wanted to establish but it backfired spectacularly on them. Eve isn't affected unless it goes FTP in which case all bets are off. For now its quite clear that software with a recurring charge (ie a subscription) is not covered by the ruling.
Firstly, thanks for taking the time to read my post :)
Secondly, how do you mean "If the authentication cannot be separated from the software"? Because surely the password and the account are two separate entities? They just need to go together to make everything work? By which I mean, the password is not hardcoded to be attached to the account, it can go and be a password for anything else, or even just a bit of text, they aren't attached?
As for needing authentication to fully function, what I'm saying is, that is covered by the account, but for the account to function, it requires the password. Sort of a double dependency, but I'm sure you could argue that the second dependency (password) IS separate from the first dependency (the account itself) and so wouldn't be covered?
Either way it's not really an issue for EVE because CCP can still ban people for RMT, right?
TB |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
551
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Posted - 2012.07.04 18:22:00 -
[72] - Quote
What about apps from the apple store? Are those up for resale as well? Kind of surprised that has not been brought up. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8365
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Posted - 2012.07.04 18:32:00 -
[73] - Quote
rodyas wrote:What about apps from the apple store? Are those up for resale as well? Kind of surprised that has not been brought up. They should be covered by it, yes. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Zumra
INX Industries
3
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Posted - 2012.07.04 18:47:00 -
[74] - Quote
that beast wrote: Secondly, how do you mean "If the authentication cannot be separated from the software"? Because surely the password and the account are two separate entities? They just need to go together to make everything work? By which I mean, the password is not hardcoded to be attached to the account, it can go and be a password for anything else, or even just a bit of text, they aren't attached?
TB
The ruling allows you to resell software, if that software requires a password you set up, it is part of it. Your arguments against it make no sense.
If a EULA go against the laws of the state where the software is sold, the EULA is not worth the bits that are storing it. In fact, if parts of the EULA are contradictory to laws of the state, an argument could be made against other parts of the EULA.
An EULA is not a legally binding document, it strengthens a companies position in court, helps set precedent, and gives a company a measure of control over what a states law does not cover.
The ruling stated by op does not appear to cover a subscription model such as EVE online. If someone were to take it to court, as someone above suggested, it would most likely be expanded but to what affect one could not really predict now. The ruling would cover games such as Diablo 3, where there is a cd key that comes with the box, and is required to use the software.
Note, by state I mean government/nation/country, not the American version of state. Also, anything stated above does not apply to the USA, as their laws are... yeah. |
Kunming
CyberShield Inc ROMANIAN-LEGION
39
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Posted - 2012.07.04 18:48:00 -
[75] - Quote
Your account is not your property, you rent it with a subscription or PLEX. The characters on an account, on the other hand, are your 'ingame' assets, and are subject to the same rules as items and ships. You may sell them, scrap them, or transfer them.
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Emiko P'eng
18
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Posted - 2012.07.04 19:20:00 -
[76] - Quote
Kunming wrote:Your account is not your property, you rent it with a subscription or PLEX. The characters on an account, on the other hand, are your 'ingame' assets, and are subject to the same rules as items and ships. You may sell them, scrap them, or transfer them. What Kunming says is the most valid point of this whole debate as if you read the full ruling!
InfoCuria - Case-law of the Court of Justice: (Legal protection of computer programs GÇô Marketing of used licences for computer programs downloaded from the internet GÇô Directive 2009/24/EC GÇô Articles 4(2) and 5(1) GÇô Exhaustion of the distribution right GÇô Concept of lawful acquirer)
Note due to length of URL 'Left Clicking' on the above 'Link' wont work? While 'Right Clicking' and selecting 'Open in New Tab' does work??? Weird Forum bug
Section 72 states
Quote: 'On the basis of all the foregoing, the answer to Question 2 is that Article 4(2) of Directive 2009/24 must be interpreted as meaning that the right of distribution of a copy of a computer program is exhausted if the copyright holder who has authorised, even free of charge, the downloading of that copy from the internet onto a data carrier has also conferred, in return for payment of a fee intended to enable him to obtain a remuneration corresponding to the economic value of the copy of the work of which he is the proprietor, a right to use that copy for an unlimited period.'
Translated to Plain English:
If there was no time limit placed on the sale at the point of sale it is yours. If you rent it you don't own it.
So in EVE's case!
You own the programme disc and the client software there upon!
But you don't own the account you set up to enable to use the content of that disc, as you pay a rental fee for that! |
Nate Guralman
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
34
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Posted - 2012.07.04 19:35:00 -
[77] - Quote
Zumra wrote: An EULA is not a legally binding document,
LIKE HELL IT ISN'T!! A EULA is very much a legally binding document. It doesn't mean it can't be overruled by local/national laws (like in the example the author mentioned about giving someone the right to hurt you). It's also possible to enter in an separate agreement with the vendor if you contact them and they're willing to give you an amendment. But it's *DEFINITELY* a legally binding document.
But don't take my word for it, check with your attorney.
For the OP, I'm not sure where the confusion comes form. The EU ruling you posted *clearly* states that the license is transferable:
Quote:an author of software cannot oppose the resale of his GÇÿusedGÇÖ licences allowing the use of his programs downloaded from the interne
Emphasis mine.
And the license (the EVE EULA in this case) *clearly* states that the accounts and in-game virtual goods aren't transferable:
Quote: The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions, newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game
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E'ara Koshun
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.07.04 20:12:00 -
[78] - Quote
Emiko P'eng wrote:
If there was no time limit placed on the sale at the point of sale it is yours. If you rent it you don't own it.
So in EVE's case!
You own the programme disc and the client software there upon!
But you don't own the account you set up to enable to use the content of that disc, as you pay a rental fee for that!
this is what i think too
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Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
341
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Posted - 2012.07.04 20:36:00 -
[79] - Quote
Cebraio wrote:This ruling IS interesting for gamers though, because it means Valve, EA, Blizzard and others might be forced to offer a way for selling used games - at least for EU customers. I'm looking forward to sell D3. Two weeks ago they refused my request. Yay for Internet lawyers!
As an online distributor why fight it? You can sell your game to whoever you want. All you will need to do is pay the $100 administration fee to cover the costs of verifying the claim, record tracking system changes only for the EU, labour etc.
Easy to facilitate. |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
148
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Posted - 2012.07.04 21:17:00 -
[80] - Quote
On a purely theoretical note, how much real cash would someone pay for a 120m SP pvp allrounder character? |
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Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
664
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Posted - 2012.07.04 22:42:00 -
[81] - Quote
Othran wrote:National laws > EULA. Oracle's EULA says you can't sell software. Court says you can. Oracle lose.
Software developers can put whatever they like in the EULA, it isn't going to make any difference if a court says otherwise in an area they sell the product. CCP quote the laws of Iceland, which is part of the EEA so they have to comply with EU court decisions if they wish to sell products within the EU.
EULAs aren't worth the paper they're written on in anywhere other than the USA, and even there its increasingly dodgy.
In other words, if CCP puts in their EULA that you can murder somebody OOG for killing your internet spaceship shooting internet lasers at internet rocks, that doesn't suddenly make murder legal. |
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
24
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Posted - 2012.07.09 21:09:00 -
[82] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:BoBoZoBo wrote:One has nothing to do with the other. Apples and Steaks. I strongly disagree. Read my above post
Your agreement on the subject is irrelevant. Law is law and does not need you to "feel" any particular way for it to be the way it is.
The EU decision deals with software which is PURCHASED (not LEASED) and your right to resell the licence, in the U.S. it is called the First Sale doctrine. And it does not apply to services you pay a monthly fee for or the rights to the client, only the physical copy of the item in question.
You are not purchasing the EVE client itself, the account or the data that supports it. You are LICENSING it, and are paying a monthly fee under this agreement for the privilege or accessing the server and all the data contained within it.
If you are entitles to anything it's the COPY of the installer (which really went to setup costs) which you are still free to resell if you can).
When players "sell" their accounts (legally) here, they are doing so under the rules established by the IP holder, CCP. And even then, they are selling the rights to use the account, not the account itself. CCP still owns that. Primary Test Subject |
Leeluvv
The Black Ops Black Core Alliance
5
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Posted - 2012.07.09 21:21:00 -
[83] - Quote
My take on this using the hire car analogy again, feel free to correct as necessary:
If you buy a car out right, the seller cannot impose limitations on how or when you sell the car. <- Oracle If you rent a car, you don't own it, so can't sell it. <- CCP |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2157
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Posted - 2012.07.09 21:53:00 -
[84] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Not sure about stuff above but after few years of paying for this chars when im done with em this baby and other are going to e-bay.
Good luck with that. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
125
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Posted - 2012.07.10 00:29:00 -
[85] - Quote
I vote for a member of CCP to post their opinion on this subject. I thought you couldn't sell your accounts for cash, and yet some people not only suggest that this does happen, but also quite regulary. I'd be interested in seeing the official opinion on that.
And more importantly, how much do accounts sell for? |
Mallak Azaria
292
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Posted - 2012.07.10 00:47:00 -
[86] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:I vote for a member of CCP to post their opinion on this subject. I thought you couldn't sell your accounts for cash, and yet some people not only suggest that this does happen, but also quite regulary. I'd be interested in seeing the official opinion on that. And more importantly, how much do accounts sell for?
It's against the EULA to sell an account, but people do it anyway. Getting caught means the account is permabanned. Buying accounts also has the significant risk of the seller deciding he/she wants it back & there's nothing you can do to stop them. You also have no legal recourse, as intangible goods aren't supported by most middleman entities (Paypal for example). |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
98
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Posted - 2012.07.10 00:47:00 -
[87] - Quote
Eve software is not free and is payed for monthly via 30 day subs aka plex and yes the new law does give you legal power to sell them. Since this law has passed I have now put all my chars isk into buying eve online subscriptions via ISK in game and removing the plex and turning into ''30 day eve subscriptions'' as the EU now protects my right to sell these for cash. I do hope CCP and eve survive this transition.
It must be stressed that if CCP fails to acknowledge that users are now legally able to sell subscriptions and licences or just simply lives in denial then 100% this will be the end of CCP and eve online under its current operators and trading practices.
CCP get your sh!t together and prepare yourself for subscription and licence trading or be fined into oblivian by the EU for refusing to allow us to trade subs which is now a legal right. Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
98
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Posted - 2012.07.10 01:04:00 -
[88] - Quote
I've always wondered if CCP was trading in PLEX I guess we are about to find out. Plex is now worth <500M isk or 15 dollars real money. I expect to see plex rocket in ISK value as players look forward to trading it for real dollars on such sites as ebay knowing that the EU has made this practise 100% legal. Any effort from CCP to ban accounts will be seen as an effort to thwart this new legal right to softwae licence, subscription ownership and the right to sell.
It's not just CCP that is in this very dangerous bind, sites such as steam are in for a long ride too. On that note steam has actually bought back several of my games after refusing to allow me to trade them.
CCP I hope you are ready as EVE is a good game. Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1002
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Posted - 2012.07.10 01:08:00 -
[89] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Eve software is not free and is payed for monthly via 30 day subs aka plex and yes the new law does give you legal power to sell them. Since this law has passed I have now put all my chars isk into buying eve online subscriptions via ISK in game and removing the plex and turning into ''30 day eve subscriptions'' as the EU now protects my right to sell these for cash. I do hope CCP and eve survive this transition.
It must be stressed that if CCP fails to acknowledge that users are now legally able to sell subscriptions and licences or just simply lives in denial then 100% this will be the end of CCP and eve online under its current operators and trading practices.
CCP get your sh!t together and prepare yourself for subscription and licence trading or be fined into oblivian by the EU for refusing to allow us to trade subs which is now a legal right. Wrong. I downloaded the EVE client before I payed a penny.
EVE's software is free.
The subscription only allows you to rent server resources.
Also, enjoy your ban. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1002
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Posted - 2012.07.10 01:10:00 -
[90] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:I've always wondered if CCP was trading in PLEX I guess we are about to find out. Plex is now worth <500M isk or 15 dollars real money. I expect to see plex rocket in ISK value as players look forward to trading it for real dollars on such sites as ebay knowing that the EU has made this practise 100% legal. Any effort from CCP to ban accounts will be seen as an effort to thwart this new legal right to softwae licence, subscription ownership and the right to sell.
It's not just CCP that is in this very dangerous bind, sites such as steam are in for a long ride too. On that note steam has actually bought back several of my games after refusing to allow me to trade them.
CCP I hope you are ready as EVE is a good game. Wrong. The EU ruling only effects software that you pay for. Find me a single piece of software from CCP that you must pay for.
I'll help you out. You can't. Its free.
You pay to use their server. Its renting, not buying. The EU ruling does not cover this. |
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