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Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
18
   |
Posted - 2012.07.04 00:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
I want you to imagine for a moment, you are shooting a Drednought in your battle badger. He has no modules fitted and you have enough ammo to keep going til he dies. Suddenly the ship explodes in front of you. You check your combat log but nothing appears. There is no record of you catching this guy with his pants down, utterly embarrased him and would have dealt over a million dmg using just a badger.
Instead the pilot decided to blow his ship up. He knew what the outcome was and took steps to deny you the ship and it's contents. A perfectly legitimate tactic (hey I hear you fannies moaning it's a sandbox all the time). The last person to decisively determine the fate of the ship is it's pilot. just shooting at him doesn't make it your kill does it? It doesn't give you the right to any prestige for damaging a guys ship that exploded of it's own accord surely?
If you happen to be taking a wh and surround their POS, they decide to deny you everything they have these are not your kills. You have not caused a single one of them. Should you choose to argue causation; "Yeah but I send my pixels at him which made him asplode his pixels." Well maybe I should record my debit card transaction to CCP in my killmails, you know, if I wasn't paying the sub I wouldn't ever explode would I?
You have driven them out. They have lost their asset(s). If you have not blown them up why do you think you deserve a killmail?
Don't ever claim the majority in a forum, because more than likely. You are not. Just those who don't care about your pathetic problem cba to post in your pathetic thread. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 00:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
Bane Nucleus wrote:Sigh.............already a post on SDing a few threads down. Please use some common sense and check to see if there is a recent previous thread on the subject you are posting about.
I'm posting about suicide not being recorded as a kill. (I suppose technically it is but I for one would endeavour to create the games longest list of API verified suicides). This is a game about homicide not suicide, why record suicides (I can only imagine PvPers would agree with me on this, being PvPers, not Pers). That other thread read like a bunch of whines about people wanting non-kill related information recorded in killmails and a feature addition/change suggestion. So You could even argue it's in the wrong section. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 01:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
So lets look at this situation, SD'ing ships in a POS while someone drums on your bubble. No record is generated. You are: -
In a station (pretty much)
You were fired upon on your way there.
No killmail is generated.
In a similar situation you are in NPC nullsec, you are fired upon but dock before destroyed. You decide to trash your ship because you are being camped. No killmail is generated. Why not? it has taken damage almost immediately before from another party and you explicitly request your ship to be destroyed and leave nothing behind. Should this generate a killmail? If not why not?
To look at causation, you are being fired upon and very slowly dying so rather than sit there for 2 hours whilst they slowly kill you you decide to end their suffering and SD. Yes they have fired at you, yes you are at their mercy. But they are no more directly responsible for your ships death than whoever manufactured it. If I am in a fleet and my boss warps me into a POS that then kills me, is he responsible? Should he appear on the killmail as the main aggressor? After all HE caused my loss; it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't hit the button. His action is one step before the ultimate destructor of my ship, just as those shooting a capital is one step before the ultimate destructor of the ship (if it SDs).
How are these situations different? In both situations someone CAUSES the ships destruction but neither is the DIRECT cause. In both situations there are two outcomes, one which records a killmail that does not include the indirect cause of a ships destruction. The other does not record a killmail because the ships destruction is not DIRECTLY caused by another ship. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 09:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Because by docking you have satisfied 2 game mechanics already in place. First, you would have had to wait out your aggression timer to dock. And more importantly, you would have had a session change by docking.
The session change is important, as it is already a mechanic that deals with this. For example, I engage someone on a gate. They almost kill me but I jump through the gate. On the other side someone else finishes me off. In this instance the first person does not get on the killmail because of the session change.
So not having a killmail would still be consistent with current game mechanics.
Looking at the session change situation there. Another hypothetical situation, Just before jumping a gate a nightmare is flayed to within 1hp of it's structure. getting away with 1hp remaining. Upon reappearing in the next solar system a passing ibis seizes upon the opportunity and one shots the nightmare. All 149,999 hp dealt in the previous system is simply forgotten about. This doesn't seem in any way correctly recorded at all. I hope you agree with me on that because to continue from it: Just because it's how the game is now doesn't mean it's right. After all you're arguing to change killmail mechanics to include SDs.
So returning to that previous question. So what if you've just docked, the reason you trashed your ship is because you know you won't get away in it. True if docked in NPC null or being shot at and tackled. In both situations where there is a potential for you to die (you never know someone might come to your aid) and you decide to speed it up it doesn't make sense to me for that to be recorded as a kill for someone else. Just as jumping a stargate shouldn't mean if you've done all the work on a ship and it jumps a gate you are not given credit for the heinous amounts of damage you caused.
Jack Miton wrote:Nut up or shut up.
People who SD in combat are the lowest form of coward in EVE. There's nothing stopping you killing people and just not recording it whatsoever. After all, it still happened didn't it? You're playing a game and whining about cowardice. Denying you anything ever would be my top priority if you were shooting me. Poking you in the eye for doing the same to me doesn't seem like cowardice at all, just a legitimate strategy for reducing your gains from my loss. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 12:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
I'm picking up the idea that people don't really care about it being an accurate report of what happened. Not really. But that they are more concerned with someone who had a lol fit have this recorded on their losses board. What for? If they only do lol fits they're just gonna die to the next guy anyway, whether or not this was recorded as happening before or not.
I even get the feeling you're main concern is disparaging other people. I don't see how anything more than the fight and their choice to blow up requires any kind of record. We all know CCP actively encourages faggotry in this game. But that's in game, by all means send tornados at mackinaws, but why do you need to record any of this whatsoever? Hey look at my ***** flapping around. It's not as big as it could be though waaaaaaaaahhh. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 19:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bane Nucleus wrote:I don't even care if the SD mail shows a fit or value. Some people do sure, but you can't sit there and say that having an accurate battle report is a bad thing. And like what someone else said, sometimes the killboard is extra important for people. Mercs get hired a lot based soley on their killboard. Just because you don't seem to agree with that part of game doesn't make it any less important.
Recording a battle report of 50 ships going boom inside a POS or whilst under fire doesn't seem accurate, that's not battle, that's one side cutting losses and reducing loot.
Elisa Fir wrote:
And oh, killboards are a inaccurate anyhow (or at least, a selective truth), but I guess we don't have to discuss the obvious.
Yeah, for some reason I don't have one.
I wouldn't even describe the kills I have as battles either so haven't chased it up.
Bane Nucleus wrote:Rroff wrote:Generally killmails are accurate enough - would be nice to see the inclusion of logistics in some capacity without them having to use agressive modules . THIS. I love my Guardian so show it some damn love on killmails!  This I do agree with. They are part of a battle so should be recorded, even if it's just a "HP repaired" figure underneath damage taken. or remote repper icons above the aggressor in a killmail.
Mr Bigwinky wrote:
Why should I lose out on having record of what happened just because you lost your ship a little quicker than if I had blown it up? Your ship is gone either way, why are we pretending like it didn't happen?
Because you did NOT kill it, it exploded at the expressed and delayed decision of the pilot. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 19:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jiska Ensa wrote:I self-destructed a battlecruiser once because two frigates couldn't kill me fast enough.
Sometimes I just don't like waiting. If you can't kill me in 2 minutes, either let me go or deal with it. This sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
Rroff wrote:
Maybe fit your ship better so it can deal with frigs next time (Warrior IIs?)... or have a friend/alt come by with anti-tackle setup.
Or the two frigs fit better to deal with a battlecruiser next time (bigger guns)... or have a friend/alt come by with a battleship and anti-BC setup?
Ashimat wrote:
And as interesting the question is about why in all thats holy SD do not show up on KMs, the real mystery is why the information about a kill only goes to one pilot, and why that pilot should be the one with the final blow? What's so magical about that? Why not top dmg? Or first blow?
I like this post, questiong the games setup rather than just saying, that's how it is now so it's obviously the best.
Hathrul wrote:from csm min
.........
ale attacks.
That is more about why SD'ing removes the incentive to attack a wh system than it is about not recording killmails when the pilot self destructs. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.07.04 19:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ayeson wrote:
Also, OP, Post with your main...its all the rage, I hear everybody's doing it.
This is no more an alt than my "Main(s)." Besides attacking me in game would just make me self destruct leaving you no killmail to show for it; therefore no point attacking me right? And finally, are you having trouble with a discussion? Would you rather just come shoot me? Unlucky, use your words little timmy. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 21:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cryostassiss wrote:
They took the risk/reward gamble of WH space and they lost it, and now they have the option to take the wimp's way out when the aggressing pilots have usually taken lost of time to set up the appropriate fleet and laid in wait for the appropriate time. They take the cowards way out, and now there will be no record of them ever being in that ship during said fight and only the pod will be proof.
Yes they did, and they lost an expensive piece of hardware in the process.
Please keep crying over killmails you don't deserve, your tears are delicious [read: pathetic] |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 22:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Finalgear wrote:Moonlit Raid wrote:
What function does this post serve?
You's Trollin' [read: pathetic]
Fight fire with fire. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 23:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Would you like me to try? |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 14:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mr Bigwinky wrote:I can't think of how to write this out any easier for you... erm.
Your ship blew up because I shot at it, a battle happened, you lost.
Regardless of what made your ship explode, it still exploded because I agressed it.
I am yet to hear a good reason there should be no record of this...
"You did not kill it" is not a good reason because it is wrong. I killed it, it is dead because of me, who cares if you got the final blow. But you didn't kill it, and back to the causation argument, you argue that it exploded because you aggressed it. So what? lets just suggest you're not coming close to breaking the tank, did you REALLY kill it? REALLY? You argue that because you fired upon it, maybe only the once, you are entitled to be considered a contribuatory factor in killing it. Should the person I buy the ship from be considered culpable, remember, I wouldn't have SD the ship if I hadn't bought it would I? Should squad leader be culpable for warping squad?
Mr Bigwinky wrote:
Rather than justify why I should have a killmail, I think it'd be better to hear the reasons you should be able to deny someone one, or why you would want to?
Simply this: If you're not the immediate factor in a ships popping you didn't kill it.
Mr Bigwinky wrote:I'm betting almost everyone who thinks they deserve to deny a killmail does so out of 1 of 2 reasons (neither are valid)
1: Spite - your spite is not a valid game mechanic, you are the type of person that turns off a multiplayer right before the results and act like noone won because you turned it off...
2: Killboard - you don't want the loss, and wish to pretend like it didn't happen (even though it did)
That about right?
3. You didn't apply enough damage to kill it.
4. You were not the immediate factor in it's destruction
5. The pilot had the option to deny the ship and equipment, you were unable to prevent him from doing what he wanted to do, therefore you failed at YOUR end.
Michael1995 wrote:Killing (& baking stuff) is what this game is all about, self destruction is for cowards IMO, If they failed to protect their vessels they deserve to die. Is cowardice in a game even possible? The repercussion are zero in any and all situations. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 12:08:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kalel Nimrott wrote:
Stop crying, my (big) belly hurts.
I don't think he can help it. If it works why bother fixing it? I don't know why people are so emotional about changing this. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 12:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
Kalel Nimrott wrote:Moonlit Raid wrote:Kalel Nimrott wrote:
Stop crying, my (big) belly hurts.
I don't think he can help it. If it works why bother fixing it? I don't know why people are so emotional about changing this. I MEANT YOU!
I don't understand. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2012.07.11 17:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kalel Nimrott wrote:Zyella Stormborn wrote:Elisa Fir wrote:This game is not all about combat and the actions of a target are not all about the aggressor.
The common misconception is that the reason for the target to self-destruct is to deny the aggressor a killmail. However, when I self-destruct a Strategic Cruiser, I'm self-destructing to protect my skill points and not give away a perfectly repairable ship.
The aggressors and his precious killmail are irrelevant to me
IF someone does indeed self-destructing only to deny the aggressor a killmail, it is just another form of grieving. There are many forms of grieving in EVE, it is just that usually the aggressor is on the delivering, instead of on the receiving side.
So, the tears about not receiving a killmail are no different from the tears from suicide ganked miners. Not getting what you want, or losing what you have, is part of EVE. It is what sets this game apart from your average cuddly MMO.  There were two points that were made during the course of this thread. 1-. The SD that matter were of capital and pos mods/poses. 2-. Also as important as above was the fact that a more advanced tool than the kill mail was requiered to better undestand how a battle develops, other than fraps. That being said I do not understand the quote above except for tve tengu thing that is pretty obvious. But i tell you this. Eject worksfaster and better than SD. I certainly wouldn't agree it's better, you leave a perfectly serviceable ship behind.
|
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2012.07.14 13:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:Myz Toyou wrote:Seems CCP woke up and released KM for SDing, atleast that what people claim since today on 2 Supers that SDed and issued a KM anyway.
If so, huge thanks to CCP words spreading out, just need more confirmation. anyway OP can suck it
Well god didn't make women to work hard did he? |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2012.07.16 17:21:00 -
[17] - Quote
Wait a minute. A guy named suicide r us blew himself up? And you STILL consider this a kill? |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2012.07.16 22:58:00 -
[18] - Quote
Cryostassiss wrote:Moonlit Raid wrote:
Wait a minute. A guy named suicide r us blew himself up? And you STILL consider this a kill?
Dear god I hope you don't breed.
Bit personal for a discussion about a game don't you think? You don't even know me, I could be a molecular biologist on the verge of curing cancer for all you know.
Cryostassiss wrote:
You can't even distinguish a name from a corporation, his name doesn't even contain "Self" or "destruct"
He has associated himself with a name in-game of an entity he chose to join, that particular entity is called "Suicides-R-Us." Similarly a part representing the whole, you as a player will likely often be referred to as part of Transmission lost. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2012.07.17 12:06:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kalel Nimrott wrote:Capital SD should destroy pods.
Why? |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 11:41:00 -
[20] - Quote
Parsee789 wrote:Self-destruction should negate insurance.
I should not receive money if I intentionally blew up my vehicle on purpose.
And self destruct timer should be relevant to ship class.
Its ******** how a Supercapital with 40+ million ehp can self destruct in the same time a puny >1000ehp shuttle.
Capitals should take 15 minutes to self destruct for starters.
Supercapitals should take 45 minutes to self destruct.
Self-destruction under aggression should give you a killmail of the ship. Loot will be destroyed, but a record should still remain.
Why not, if you crash your own car you get a payout don't you? |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 16:30:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mr Bigwinky wrote:Moonlit Raid wrote:Parsee789 wrote:Self-destruction should negate insurance.
I should not receive money if I intentionally blew up my vehicle on purpose.
And self destruct timer should be relevant to ship class.
Its ******** how a Supercapital with 40+ million ehp can self destruct in the same time a puny >1000ehp shuttle.
Capitals should take 15 minutes to self destruct for starters.
Supercapitals should take 45 minutes to self destruct.
Self-destruction under aggression should give you a killmail of the ship. Loot will be destroyed, but a record should still remain. Why not, if you crash your own car you get a payout don't you? Not if you did it on purpose 
I don't think eve has a claims call centre. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 16:51:00 -
[22] - Quote
Klarion Sythis wrote:Sure they do, it's the petition system. An equally timely and fun process.
Not for claiming your insurance payout for losing a ship though. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 21:08:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cryostassiss wrote:That thread brought a tear to my eye.
Suck it moonlit.
I'll get over it. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 20:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
Soon Shin wrote:Moonlit Raid wrote:Cryostassiss wrote:That thread brought a tear to my eye.
Suck it moonlit. I'll get over it. I sense great butthurt and tears coming from this NPC alt.
The trying too hard is strong with this one. |
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