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MouthP1ece
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Posted - 2010.03.23 21:53:00 -
[1]
my little corp is looking around for an alliance to join and we keep seeing that some alliances talk about having an industrial backbone and I'm kind of curious what this means to different people.
Does this mean that they just rely heavily on industry as a way of making money, or are they offering cheap ships/fittings/ammo to members?
Any insight would be welcome :)
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Halada
Caldari
Lone Star Joint Venture
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.03.23 22:42:00 -
[2]
An industrial backbone is quite literally an industry infrastructure that represents the pillars of an alliance's military strength. This includes logistics, mining, production and market seeding.
I spent my entire EVE career perfecting my skills at doing just that. When I started playing in 2005 and joined an average corp in ASCN, jump drives did not exist then. The alliance relied on huge freighter convoys which necessitated an escort of over a hundred pilot for the dozen freighters we had for the trip. We'd travel across forty jumps and then travel the way back the next day.
A solid logistic line is absolutely vital for:
1. Import of compressed mineral and export of high-end surplus for capital, supercapital and sub-capital production directly in 0.0 space, mainly to seed market, provide replacements and support the capital fleet.
2. The seeding of the market at affordable prices to allow the military pilots to fit their ship properly, as well as fuel and other commodities
3. Allow quick turnaround of ISK flow for miners and industrialists
Most alliances began as a small entity that was funded a by a few rich individuals willing to take risks, since you never begin with a handful of R64 and R32 moons when you're small. An efficient jump network, protected by properly fitted large death stars, will allow Jump Freighters to travel from the farthest region of 0.0 to Empire in less than 3 jumps and 8 minutes (I timed myself from the Deepest end of Branch all the way to The Forge in Aunenen.) All you'll need is a cyno alt for the low-sec jump, which, if you open just above station, is totally and absolutely risk-free.
Manual cynos are a ****ing ***** and any alliance living deep in 0.0 WITHOUT a proper logistic network will die a painful death. It should and always has been the very first priority if you want to survive. No supply line = no life line, you die. It's a thankless job, and a lot of PvP folks who think their pewpew talents are tremendous usually lack enough braincells to understand the concept of a backbone and why it is so important.
So if you're looking to join a 0.0 alliance, especially one that lives deep within 0.0, you'll need to offer:
1. Organized and efficient jump towers network. The investment requires several billions, is a ***** to setup since you need to juggle with the politics as you'll undoubtedly need to claim sov in a system owned by a neighbor, and it can take weeks for proper standings or authorization to arrive (when we founded WI., PURE owned parts of Deklein, and they were such useless ****s that it took them days to just reach a consensual agreement... think the Ents of EVE. It's painful.)
2. A production backbone. This will require either an Amarr outpost or POS setup in 0.0 to produce replacement BS and mods, AT AFFORDABLE PRICES. Many *******s like to gouge their alliance mates with a 50% markup of BS price over Jita without realizing they're screwing their entire alliance. A 15% over Jita price is sufficient to make a profit and account for 0.0 costs (fuel needed for tower, fuel needed to jump mins in a JF, etc...)
3. Eventually an alliance will need reliable capital producers, which is a huge endeavor. It requires an organized system of mineral compression system. LSJV, my now defunct corp, founded an empire mining corp which supplied us in Trit, which we compressed ourselves and exported to 0.0. You'll need a character with perfect refining skills and the implant to achieve 99.35% refining yield in a vanilla minmatar outpost, and since most alliances tax 10%, you'll need to work a deal to be exempted of that tax when it comes to refining compressed mins, as 10% on 20bil worth of compressed mins is a high tax to pay, especially considering the goal is to produce caps directly in 0.0 for quick and easy replacement of cap losses.
Hope this helps :) Good luck!
THE COMPLETE MINER'S GUIDE - VERSION 3.0 EXTENDED EDITION |
genette devo
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.03.24 05:07:00 -
[3]
be careful if they want you to be that backbone,
It usually means the l337 pvp players want you to be their b****,
run supplies and make them ships and do all the grunt work they don't want to ,
and do it all for no profit margin.......so I've had some bad experiences......
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Ariane VoxDei
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Posted - 2010.03.24 09:52:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: MouthP1ece
Does this mean that they just rely heavily on industry as a way of making money, or are they offering cheap ships/fittings/ammo to members?
That is not the right way to think about it.
Your job is primarily to produce, as much of what they need as possible, locally. Keep stocks up. And if you become trusted enough, help build capitals.
Your (economic) concern should be what they offer you for that (versus the risks), not if they then sell those products.
If you think of yourself of someone who comes and lives in their space, makes stuff and sell that to them, you are not part of the backbone.
A backbone is part of a greater whole. It is not a seperate external entity, even though due to convenience they are frequently in a corp of their own or even outside the alliance.
You might have to start as a small vertebra in the tail of godzilla, but if you do a good job (and have found a good 'zilla) you may well move to a more important part of its spine.
btw: There are those who say industrial, by really mean mining slaves and posfuel haulers. U B warned.
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Ikonia
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Posted - 2010.03.24 09:54:00 -
[5]
Well, no risk no fun, or?
If they want you to become a backbone for them, they need to acceptm, that is MORE expensive, than just buying ore somewhere and haul it to nowhere. An industrial backbone is guaranteed source of ..whatever.
If they ask you for becoming that i recommend:
Strictly define what they need, how much of it and the amount you can guarantee to deliver.
Dont accept anything like "you do, we take, no matter how much"
Accept that you are offering a service:
I deliver 100.000 m¦ Tritanium per day for 270.000 ISK at the station Wonderland of ore at daily CET 6 pm.
Of course, the more you deliver, the more you need to earn. Means if you deliver more than the market has ready to buy, the higher the price ABOVE the regular price should be. A backbone is a stable and guaranteed ressource. A backbone isnt a fullservice low price delivery discounter for confortability reasons regarding to "if i take that much, i want a better price" - then tell them to go on the market in Jita.
I am not a backbone, but i have an agreement with a corp to deliver a BS each week. The price is higher than the market, but for that, they have the guarantee to get one at their station. If they want now get a second one, i would have to deny, cause i dont have that much time for mining.
Hope that helped.
Cheers Iko
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Honker:"Damn! Ok, I'll go and loot my wife now..."
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HighSec Gankers? Well, every world has its psychpaths. |
Lui Kai
Better Than You
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Posted - 2010.03.24 17:06:00 -
[6]
A vast majority of alliances that claim to have an "industrial backbone" actually mean they have 2-3 guys with jumpfreighters, or a mining corp who has a few blueprints.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2010.03.24 19:14:00 -
[7]
Not to mention the people who outsource some of the work to me :p
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34.4:1 mineral compression |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2010.03.24 20:10:00 -
[8]
Industry is not a corp function in EVE.
Most alliances just want some idiots to build stuff for tham at less than market value.
If an alliance does an have industry it mean 3 or 4 leaders and their alts do everything.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Cunane
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Posted - 2010.03.24 20:59:00 -
[9]
Originally by: genette devo
be careful if they want you to be that backbone,
It usually means the l337 pvp players want you to be their b****,
run supplies and make them ships and do all the grunt work they don't want to ,
and do it all for no profit margin.......so I've had some bad experiences......
To be fair if you became the industrial backbone, and the alliance started acting that way, with control of ship production, a jump network of pos's you'd be in an amazing place to strike, and cripple alliance activities. They'd probably fight back, but to fair with some sense you would of moved out everything of value before striking, and every ship that you popped would be a double victory :D
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ZeeOhSix
Blackwater Manufacturing and Logistics
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Posted - 2010.03.24 22:53:00 -
[10]
Edited by: ZeeOhSix on 24/03/2010 22:54:03
Very interesting thread regarding logistics - thank you!
The EVE military-industrial complex ;)
The business of EVE is business!
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Elsa Nietzsche
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Posted - 2010.03.25 00:31:00 -
[11]
Personally, I'm fascinated by the challenges of logistics. Like others have said, most alliances will boast that PVP is the name of the game, but it doesn't happen unless they have a seeded market.
I don't have near the experience of others in this thread and so I'm treading much more carefully. Rather than trying to set up a complex mining and building network, I'm currently working on making weekly Jita runs and just tacking 50-100k on each item. The profit margin is extremely slim (I have to sell 3 of an item just to cover the taxes) But I look at it as I'm helping the alliance and myself (I'd have had to make those runs anyway to get my own mods out there).
Right now I'm just feeling out our market to see what items move at higher volumes. We do have a POS set up so I brought out an ammo assembly array. Drones and ammo (including cap boosters) seem to be very high volume items.
Right now I just fly an itty 1 w/ a cloak. We have a JB network and decent intel. I do plan to upgrade to a blockade runner but I doubt I'll become so into transport that I'd invest in a jump freighter.
The fact of the matter is that logistics (or the industrial backbone) is key to 0.0 living. And there's good profit to be made, especially if you focus on sales volume over profit margins. Don't misunderstand me, the industrial backbone is much much bigger than just transporting goods but I just wanted to point out that even as an individual without the skills (SP & knowledge) and equipment to run a big manufacturing job can still plan a very important role to the alliance and do so at a profit.
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Kati Kirjasto
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Posted - 2010.03.25 01:46:00 -
[12]
It means industrialists that have a backbone and dont take no crap from anyone.
Like me.
I will 0.01 ISK like a robot and then BAM crash your little market because I don't give a crap. All the stuff I sell, I made from scratch so its all profit for me. You lose money I profit and laugh my ass off when you take a loss trying to compete with me.
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Neroo Tal
Minmatar
Order of the Golden Dawn
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Posted - 2010.03.25 03:15:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Neroo Tal on 25/03/2010 03:16:01
So minerals you mine yourself are free right? /sarc
- Sorry, couldn't help myself ^_^
--Neroo Tal
Order of the Golden Dawn CEO : Founder |
Halada
Caldari
Lone Star Joint Venture
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.03.25 03:56:00 -
[14]
Thankfully I can tell people to STFU if they annoy or disrespect me because I'm a carebear, and as soon as I point out that without my brains, he wouldn't have his ship to pewpew and yell like Tarzan on comms because no one would have brought it up to him.
It is a thankless job, but you can and should command respect (if you're any good at it).
THE COMPLETE MINER'S GUIDE - VERSION 3.0 EXTENDED EDITION |
Carniflex
StarHunt
Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.03.25 06:10:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Halada
It is a thankless job, but you can and should command respect (if you're any good at it).
We do love our backbone. Especially the logisticks part of it. The guys are amazing. I myself quite hate the hauling but all those millions of cubic meters of crap flowing into 0.0 are very impressive. Territory holding alliances live and die by the competence of their backbone and quality of their FC's (in addition to the number of dreads they can field). Grunts are expendable, they come and go and have relatively short attention span. But it is very hard to find guys who can and do take care of the oiling the wheels of your war machine. That out of the way - you do not just recruit your backbone. It must be grown from inside to be reliable and properly attached to you - not just some stick you have taped to your backside and call the backbone while in reality it falls away if you get in real combat. When someone claims that he is looking to recruit industrial backbone it usually means they want mining *****es.
Note also that when we talk about industrial or logistic backbone the chars in your alliance / corporation are only the tip of the iceberg. There are many alts involved in there with all the NPC corp freighter pilots or even JF pilots, many cyno alts - often not in your corporation. Unnamed innocent looking little cloaky alts plus the cloaking black ops here or there and various altcorps and even alliances. If you are big enough then also your titan pilots can be considered as part of your logistic backbone ofc.
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XenosisReaper
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Posted - 2010.03.25 12:45:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kati Kirjasto
All the stuff I sell, I made from scratch so its all profit for me.
The first time you claimed minerals you mined yourself were free, I thought you were an idiot
The second time you claimed minerals you mined yourself were free, I thought you were a troll
The 3rd time you claimed minerals you mined yourself were free, I know you are a complete and utter ****** who should go die in a fire to cleanse the genepool (ingame)
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Dizzie
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Posted - 2010.03.25 15:39:00 -
[17]
This is a very good topic for discussion, many people have ahd this question over the years and I personally would think that if someone was to write a more indepth How To that it should become a Static Post on the Industry Forums for all too see. Very helpful and informative and gives great perspective and insight to what the silent ISK warriors do for the EVE universe.
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Mielono
Caldari
SWARTA
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Posted - 2010.03.25 15:47:00 -
[18]
I too appreciate whats being written in here, I am interested in what you deliver too since I have no experience working with outspost.
Originally by: Culmen
A cat is like that carebear who sticks around only while there's food, and at best kills a few rats.A dog F*cking enforces NBSI, and deep down is slightly disappointed you aren't tak |
Borun Tal
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.25 19:05:00 -
[19]
Originally by: XenosisReaper
Originally by: Kati Kirjasto
All the stuff I sell, I made from scratch so its all profit for me.
-- hate-filled rant cut--
What are you getting your panties in a bunch for? WTF do you care? If he chooses to pay attention to his growing wallet versus ludicrous opportunity costs, what business is it of yours? His wallet is growing; isn't that the goal?
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Andre Vauban
Gallente
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.03.25 21:16:00 -
[20]
Originally by: MouthP1ece
my little corp is looking around for an alliance to join and we keep seeing that some alliances talk about having an industrial backbone and I'm kind of curious what this means to different people.
Does this mean that they just rely heavily on industry as a way of making money, or are they offering cheap ships/fittings/ammo to members?
Any insight would be welcome :)
There have been lots of good examples in this thread. Since this is a topic near and dear to my heart, I'll provide another example.
An "Industrial Backbone" is simply an organized effort to keep the supply lines going. A lot of this involves armies of alts.
I'm just in a FW corp and we only need to move supplies into lowsec. Pretty easy task, right? Well not really... We have numerous alt corps/NPC characters (unknown to everybody) that do various things.
Some folks have large BPO collections and research towers and they just churn out BPCs. Other folks have mining alts that they love to mine on while shooting the **** on vent until some pew-pew happens at which point they log the mining alts. Other folks have NPC freighter/orca alts to move stuff around highsec, others have NPC JF alts to jump materials around. And still others have carriers/JF's in the corp itself to move materials around.
Then its important on how you organize all these different pieces to create your well oiled logistical machine. We have our miner alts mine minerals where ever they choose. They then get with the mains of freighter alts, who move the minerals to the corps main highsec staging point. The freighter alts also make weekly (random time though, never make runs on a fixed schedule) Jita (or our market hub) runs and haul materials (minerals, modules, pos fuel, etc) back to the main staging point. The folks with BPO's/research towers crank out BPCs and deliver those BPCs to the staging office as well.
The most difficult part is tracking your run rates on different ships and modules. How many ships of a particular type do you need per week/day. What is your inventory at you main lowsec/0.0 base of operations? How long will that inventory last? How long does it take to build and move replacements? When to I need to build more to get it there in time? When is my BPC almost depleted? How long to "order" another one? What is my mineral run rate? How do I communicate to my miners/freighter/copy/research/invention/etc alts what materials I need?
Once that is done, its just a matter of installing the manufacturing jobs and setting up courier contracts to the mains of the freighter/JF/transport ship pilots who will move the materials into your 0.0/lowsec base of operations.
Then you have to do the entire chain in reverse for moving any loot/moon goo/minerals/etc from your lowsec/0.0 base of operations back to your highsec base of operations.
Its a tireless job, but not thankless. Corp mates really do appreciate the fact that anytime they need a new ship or module, its available in your main pvp base of operations.
Its really not that much work if you can find a dozen or so people to help get the job done in various ways. You just have to respect and recruit the folks that like to pew-pew and xyz industrial activity.
Personally, I like the manufacturing and research as a side function to perform, but hate the hauling and minerals. Luckily for our corp, we have some other folks that like hauling and mining on the side when there isn't any action happening.
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Halada
Caldari
Lone Star Joint Venture
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.03.25 23:05:00 -
[21]
My filing cabinet has one thick file dedicated to EVE with a lot of maps and notes.
If you are going to do this right, you'll need to be organized. Excel spreadsheet are a must, use Google Docs to share them between corp directors so you can make the work more efficient.
Also helpful:
1- Pos Manager to track the tower network. My corp had to sustain 60 towers at a time, the pos tracker was essential
2- Mining Buddy with the HMS to promote mining
3- Use of resources such as Ombed 2D Eve Maps, Dotlan to figure out your logistics routes and safer systems (dead-ends, not in a popular highway
4- A lot of excel spreadsheets (or open office)
Being an industrial God in this game requires you do a lot of homework and number crunching, and be organized. You'll need at least one JF, one carrier and one Rorqual for various tasks (Rorqual is a great tower deployer).
Above all, FIT YOUR TOWERS PROPERLY! I recommend Amarr or Minmatar towers only. Minmatar towers (or faction equivalent) are the most popular but there's a reason Bobitken use amarr towers a lot. They also pack a punch. A tower not stronted or not properly fitted is a disaster waiting to happen.
I can tell you this: a faction tower properly fitted will scare most people away from the "jump the JF at their tower" game.
THE COMPLETE MINER'S GUIDE - VERSION 3.0 EXTENDED EDITION |
Lorkin Desal
Caldari
Lone Star Partners
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Posted - 2010.03.26 00:34:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Halada
My filing cabinet has one thick file dedicated to EVE with a lot of maps and notes.
If you are going to do this right, you'll need to be organized. Excel spreadsheet are a must, use Google Docs to share them between corp directors so you can make the work more efficient.
Also helpful:
1- Pos Manager to track the tower network. My corp had to sustain 60 towers at a time, the pos tracker was essential
2- Mining Buddy with the HMS to promote mining
3- Use of resources such as Ombed 2D Eve Maps, Dotlan to figure out your logistics routes and safer systems (dead-ends, not in a popular highway
4- A lot of excel spreadsheets (or open office)
Being an industrial God in this game requires you do a lot of homework and number crunching, and be organized. You'll need at least one JF, one carrier and one Rorqual for various tasks (Rorqual is a great tower deployer).
Above all, FIT YOUR TOWERS PROPERLY! I recommend Amarr or Minmatar towers only. Minmatar towers (or faction equivalent) are the most popular but there's a reason Bobitken use amarr towers a lot. They also pack a punch. A tower not stronted or not properly fitted is a disaster waiting to happen.
I can tell you this: a faction tower properly fitted will scare most people away from the "jump the JF at their tower" game.
Confirming that everything in this post is true. I too have a giant pile of paper related to eve on my desk, and that
"Being an industrial God in this game requires you do a lot of homework and number crunching, and be organized. You'll need at least one JF, one carrier and one Rorqual for various tasks (Rorqual is a great tower deployer)"
Is pretty much dead on. The rorqual can do a simelar thing to the JF in 0.0 if you are poor/dont have much to move.
The carrier is awesome for logistics, period.
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Psychotic Maniac
Caldari
Head Shrinkers
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Posted - 2010.03.26 02:03:00 -
[23]
Smoke a bunch of weed and look at the pretty lasers...for hours.
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Fitz VonHeise
Eye Bee Em
Stellar Defense Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.26 02:12:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ariane VoxDei
btw: There are those who say industrial, by really mean mining slaves and posfuel haulers. U B warned.
To Corps and Alliances Leaders who take this view you should be warned.
A 0.0 corp I was in had allowed a trusted member to be their logistics 'backbone' for various tasks to include taking out the Dys/Prom moon mins. He did it for many months and did a great job... streamlined the operations and made it effecient. Then one day he took off with billions of isk. His excuse was... "they used me, didn't pay me for my time and didn't appreciate what I did."
Alliance's and corps should realize that their moon goo and POS infrastructure should be run like a business. And people who haul stuff from 0.0 to high sec and back earn about 6-10% of whatever they are hauling. If you don't pay them a reasonable amount for the work they are doing... you run the real risk of eventually getting taken by your disgruntled 'backbone'.
♣ 5exorella hotz Alts: Hottie Sexbot, and Sexy Copier2 . Helpers: Nipplator, Vasili, Clouse Cloud, & VDV Bru Proof
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Vossejongk
Caldari
Bendebeukers
Green Rhino
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Posted - 2010.04.14 17:48:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Halada
No supply line = no life line, you die. It's a thankless job, and a lot of PvP folks who think their pewpew talents are tremendous usually lack enough braincells to understand the concept of a backbone and why it is so important.
This is the reason an Alliance I was in almost died. I was in the high sec corp making lots of stuff for the alliance by mining/missioning ect and with the resources that came from that and from the moons we build practically everything the alliance needed. Then we got war decced by a merc corp and sat scared ****less in station all day long, not beeing able to transport minerals/ore/whatever.
The rest of the alliance didn't care jack **** about us and this went on for a few weeks. After that the alliance lost nearly all its null/lowsec space that it claimed was 'theirs'.
So tl,dr: Protect the carebears or you got trouble ! :P
But then again I cant really approve of any of this because this is my signature |
mishkof
Caldari
Emerald Empire
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Posted - 2010.04.15 19:14:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Vossejongk
Originally by: Halada
No supply line = no life line, you die. It's a thankless job, and a lot of PvP folks who think their pewpew talents are tremendous usually lack enough braincells to understand the concept of a backbone and why it is so important.
This is the reason an Alliance I was in almost died. I was in the high sec corp making lots of stuff for the alliance by mining/missioning ect and with the resources that came from that and from the moons we build practically everything the alliance needed. Then we got war decced by a merc corp and sat scared ****less in station all day long, not beeing able to transport minerals/ore/whatever.
The rest of the alliance didn't care jack **** about us and this went on for a few weeks. After that the alliance lost nearly all its null/lowsec space that it claimed was 'theirs'.
So tl,dr: Protect the carebears or you got trouble ! :P
There is a difference between industrialists and carebears. I personally dont care about someones ability to do missions in empire as a 0.0 resident.
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Dark Lightening
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Posted - 2010.04.17 01:23:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Dark Lightening on 17/04/2010 01:24:51
Industrial backbone and logistics backbone are often confused and/or overlap. A logistics backbone is what moves stuff around, and is at minimum needed at some level to keep far off 0.0 markets stocked. A single Jump Freighter pilot with cyno alts is pretty much the minimum for a smaller sized alliance "logistics backbone", with a few guys with carriers to move larger ships to market or to battlefields..
Industry, and the "Industrial backbone" comes into play when buying stuff in jita to put on the far off market isn't good enough (such as large items like battleships due to cost, and capitals for example). Items can be built less expensive or at all in the first place out in 0.0, where either just the manufacturing is taking place, or even the beginning to end mining of the minerals also. Industry is also used as a profit vehicle for corps/alliances and individual players.
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