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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.08 17:33:00 -
[1]
I'm not going to bother with some long, well thought-out dissertation on this subject. However I will say the following:
"Leave the damn learning skills alone. Newbs that don't like them need to HTFU or GTFO. Simple as that. The world does not rearrange itself to accommodate you."
PL
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.08 20:40:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Liz Viscious
Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion senseless drivel.
That sums up your post quite well, no need to add the rest.
If you consider the game to encourage... not playing/being afk, why on earth would the game exist? It's meant to be played and enjoyed. Even if you're logging in an hour a day to do so then you're still actively involving yourself.
Your argument is a completely fallacious one. I take it you, much like the sumo below your post, have learning skills at V, and i'm happy for you. That said, it's still a god-awful mechanic regardless of how you think the game "is meant to be played" (or not played?).
Conclusion: keep the HTFU/GTFO stuff to yourself, unintelligent trolling is a waste of your valuable afk time.
At no time ever in the past has your opinion on this subject transcended to the level of fact. It remains simply what it always was: Your opinion on the subject.
I believe its fair to say that my opinion is at least as valid as yours. Said differently, I'm just as entitled to my opinion as you are and my opinion is this: You are a pseudo-intellectual nit and you have your knickers in a knot over something that isn't going to change. Your position is outnumbered by the people that want the learning skill tree left alone. Which leaves us precisely where it left us earlier. HTFU or GTFO. Oh and can I have your stuff?
As you were, PL
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.09 15:03:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Originally by: Pantload "Leave the damn learning skills alone. Newbs that don't like them need to HTFU or GTFO. Simple as that. The world does not rearrange itself to accommodate you."
And what if it's not just "newbs"? What if the majority of old players also want them out? What if CCP wants them out, eventually?
The world does not rearrange itself to accommodate you either!
Show me the majority of older players who want them removed and I'll concede. I never asked that the world be rearranged to accommodate me ( though its very cute of you to twist my words and turn them back on me). I asked that the world be left just as it is and that you all either Love It or Leave It ( can't say HTFU or GTFO. ya'll turn into whiney little girls over that phrase ). I play within the world as it is now. You *******s are the ones who signed up for this game and now don't want to play by the actual rules of the game. You want the rules of the game changed to suit you. I want this particular game mechanic to be left alone. I don't know if my opinion is minority or majority but its my opinion. Hell, why not have a game-wide vote on the subject and really find out? Would be very interesting to see the results of that poll.
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.09 22:10:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Liz Viscious
Originally by: Gotekk I find it amazing that some people are actually arguing that learning skills enrich the game play experience. I have 5/4 learnings it was the first thing I did and I am surprised I made it past those first few weeks (this was before the increased training time). Players should be out losing ships there first couple of weeks, experimenting with fits, trying a wide range of skill sets to learn what they enjoy...not sink time into getting and additional number tacked on to your attributes.
People want everyone to experience any pain they have felt themselves. In the opinion of most players who defend learning skills as-is, you haven't earned the right to play EVE until you've committed months of kill-joy skillpoint grinding. They're the same type who would have defended segregation in the 60's or imperialism as the white man's burden in the 19th century. People fear change and they hate to think that others might get a better start than they did, regardless of their current position in (EVE) society.
This is, without a doubt, the dumbest goddamn thing you've said so far. Seriously? Segregation? Imperialism? You are one step off invoking Godwin's Law. Get a freakin' grip on reality will you?
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.09 22:49:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Natalie Caladan Edited by: Natalie Caladan on 09/06/2010 22:35:17
Originally by: Pantload This is, without a doubt, the dumbest goddamn thing you've said so far. Seriously? Segregation? Imperialism? You are one step off invoking Godwin's Law. Get a freakin' grip on reality will you?
You're really a rude bullyboy eh? Love swearing and cursing? And proud of it?
Look lady, You and the other broad have got to get ahold of yourselves. I want the learning skills left in the game. Ergo I'm the same as the racist trash who supported Segregation? really? REALLY?! That is a seriously whacked out comparison. Oh and.. We're not in grade school here. We have to move past "ooooo, he said a dirty word". I'm just calling them like I see them.
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.10 13:33:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 10/06/2010 13:25:57
Originally by: Cash Render Actually, I have no deep seated desire for them to feel the same pain I did.
Yes you do. It's called cognitive dissonance: whenever people do things they don't really like it causes contradiction. They take that away by ridiculing it or actually making themselves think it was good - why else would they have done it? That way their mind is consistent again but it's just a lie out of convenience.
Originally by: Pantload Look lady, You and the other broad have got to get ahold of yourselves. I want the learning skills left in the game. Ergo I'm the same as the racist trash who supported Segregation? really? REALLY?! That is a seriously whacked out comparison. Oh and.. We're not in grade school here. We have to move past "ooooo, he said a dirty word". I'm just calling them like I see them.
What was meant (apparently it's very hard to understand) that there's always very conservative people around that cling to whatever exists, however good or bad it is, just because they don't want changes. No-one accused you of everything except a conservative mindset. And rudeness. Both of which are hard to deny.
Originally by: Stormmaster Neptunius First, what about new players who have just trained the learning skills? That would be a real present for them. "Hey guys, you did a lot, mining that Veldspar in Navitas to pay for learning skills (4.5M isk for each advanced one) was really hard, waiting for them all train up was even harder, and we are all impressed with how much you won. We admire your patience, and... you know, all that was just a waste of time and effort.
Honestly - I couldn't care less if it was all in vain (45% of my SP consist out of learning skills atm). I'd probably make use of the opportunity to train an alt for R+D and/or Cyno or whatever. Really, things HAVE to change - even if it's at my personal expense.
Spare us the lame babble from your Psych 101 class. Spare us your dumbass condescension. I may be many things. Rude certainly but not conservative. Oh and things don't HAVE to change. You WANT them changed. Huge distinction ( apparently that's very hard for you to understand )
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.10 14:05:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Originally by: Pantload Oh and things don't HAVE to change. You WANT them changed. Huge distinction ( apparently that's very hard for you to understand )
I more or less stated that as an opinion, not as a hard fact. Apparently you didn't notice. Too bad.
You find it surpising that you don't really make a progessive impression? Really?
No. You didn't state it as an opinion. You just stated it. As in "This HAS to change" Do you read what you write?
No surprise here. Never mentioned any surprise. You made that part up. I was merely correcting you. You need correcting.
Now back to our regularly scheduled program: "LEAVE MY LEARNING SKILLS ALONE."
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.11 13:41:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring Update:
Originally by: Tippia The problem is to (..) find a good balance between on the hand taking away skills people have spent time training and/or giving them for free to new players, and on the other hand creating a solution that's not a DB nightmare to implement and is fair to everyone.
You can watch the latest statement on the matter here, as part of the "New Player experience" presentation from Fanfest 2009. By the looks and sounds of it, as soon as they figure out a good solution, the learning skills will die in a fire.
I don't know if it's feasible from a DB standpoint, but the best suggestion I've heard so far is to simply tack 12pts onto everyone's attributes, set the new attribute minimum to 17, strip everyone of the SP used for learning skills and then use this nifty double-speed training feature to reimburse those SP (basically, calculate how much each SP char has in learning skills, set the "double bonus ends at x SP" to whatever you have now + that calculated SP value, and let everyone spend that training bonus on whatever they want).
Everyone happy? I am!
Did anybody notice that this person is like 1 week old? WTF do you know about anything in this game at that age? Especially what will be good for the game in years to come?
Removing the learning skills can easily create as many problems as it solves. If enough of the population likes the system as it is, then why change it? Because 1 week old newbs can't stand it? Not a good enough reason.
And then we have folks like Tippia who seems to have already resigned themselves that change is coming and let's just make sure we don't get screwed. In my eyes, no matter what they do, if it involves removing the learning skills, then those of us who trained them get screwed.
LEAVE MY LEARNING SKILLS ALONE!
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.11 17:14:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Selinate Edited by: Selinate on 11/06/2010 15:38:53 Anyone who support learning skills is an idiot. Quit pushing your wasted weeks onto everyone else because it's "an introduction to the game". If CCP wants to make this a more successful game (where people don't leave after they realize that it has ******ed effing skills just to shorten the skill training time), they'd remove something as ******ed as learning skills.
Again, only idiots would support the learning skills. QFT.
What an interesting statement. You're obviously against learning skills and you're clearly a ****ing idiot. Of course, the connection between those facts would be clear to someone who...well...isn't you. I haven't checked your age yet, but you're almost guaranteed to be newb. Feel free to cram your stupid opinion on this subject. Oh and while we're at it...
LEAVE MY LEARNING SKILLS ALONE!
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.11 18:37:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Pantload on 11/06/2010 18:42:46
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 11/06/2010 16:11:11
Originally by: Sader Rykane Hows that for not achieving anything?
I never said mindless drones weren't useful to others.
Not the mention the difference between the coordination operation of friends and some random noob who heard he had to learn these skills first in rookie help.
Of course, my friends shouldn't listen to ME because that makes them mindless drones. They should listen to YOU because then...they wouldn't be mindless drones.
Wait...what?
Have you ever heard someone say:
"Boy I wish I hadn't trained Learning to 4/4, it was such a waste of time."
No more often than not you hear the complete opposite.
I wish I had done more learning skills.
I wish I had done the learning skills first.
I don't CARE about learning skills.
Train learning skill however you want.
These are all comments I hear, but I've never heard anyone say they REGRET training their learning skills.
However you want to look at it, training learning skills is a net benefit in almost all cases (except that last point of charisma that apparently never pays off). The value of that benefit may vary from person to person, but it ALWAYS is a benefit.
So in absence of knowing what a rookie wants to do, telling him to train learning skills is sound advice in a zero sum game.
Well thought out! Well said! Thank you!
Originally by: Dogen Myestic Learning skills: Not fun, remove.
Quote: You may say it takes depth or strategy out of the game but I disagree, just an ambiguous time sink that all players have to go through before really experiencing the game.
Agreed. Maybe throw the butthurts a bone to make them happy.
Let me help you correct yourself here. Learning skills are not fun IN YOUR OPINION. In this particular case, you and your ilk are the butthurts and I definitely don't think CCP should throw you a bone. You're weak, lazy, and stupid and you still want a reward. Those of us among you who have a more adult viewpoint can see this. We just need you all to see it or STFU or GTFO.
LEAVE MY LEARNING SKILLS ALONE!
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.11 20:35:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Pantload You're weak, lazy, and stupid and you still want a reward. Those of us among you who have a more adult viewpoint can see this.
No. Those with an adult viewpoint would long since have noticed how new players get mired in training skills that don't get them anywhere in the game and understand how this unfavourably colours their perception of the game. They would also not use such childish epithets as "weak", "lazy" and "stupid" about people who they've never met, and they certainly would know that resorting to ad hominems only show that you have no argument whatsoever.
Incidentally, the CCP devs were calling learning skills, and all the problems they caused, one of their greatest mistakes even back when I started the gameà They're going. If you don't like it, feel free to GTFO or start trying to figure out a solution that suits those of us who have trained the silly things.
Was Ad Hominem your vocabulary word for today? I resort to insult because I despise this line of discussion and I despise you people who support it.
LEAVE MY LEARNING SKILLS ALONE!
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.11 21:32:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Pantload Was Ad Hominem your vocabulary word for today?
Obviously not, since it would then be words ù plural.
Quote: I resort to insult because I despise this line of discussion and I despise you people who support it.
You need to stop playing the game then, since you despise those who create it.
Quote: LEAVE MY LEARNING SKILLS ALONE!
Not going to happen. Start coping.
You do realize that this would never have been a problem were it not for whiny ****ing *****es like you right? CCP has not said for a fact that learning skills WILL BE REMOVED. They have said its an issue that is perceived as a problem and that they would look at "solutions" to it that would hopefully **** of the fewest number of people. It is entirely possible that leaving them in the game is a "solution" that will **** off the fewest number of people.
I don't despise CCP. I love CCP and I love this game. I hate dirty, whiny-ass *****es like you and the others in this thread who support the removal of the learning skills. I sincerely hope you all smoke a turd in hell. So, once again...
LEAVE MY LEARNING SKILLS ALONE!
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.12 16:10:00 -
[13]
Originally by: V'hellu
You're an idiot. The only thing learning skills do is decrease training time. It doesn't affect gameplay at all, hence they're USELESS and do not contribute to the game itself.
Training up your skillset over time is not a part of gameplay? In one sentence you admit that the learning skills reduce training time and in another you say they are useless. They are clearly not useless as they do perform a function. The learning skills are intrinsic to the attribute and skill systems in this game now. The reason you want them out is the same reason that anyone on your side of the argument wants them out. I've said this before and I'll say it again. It's because you are all weak, lazy, and stupid. You want something for nothing and you lack any type of patience or vision. I stand with a great many other people on this: If the learning skills are enough to put you off of this game, then you were going to wind up leaving for one dopey reason or another anyway and we don't want you here.
Now, for the n-th time you whiny ****ing *****es: HTFU or GTFO
Oh and... LEAVE MY LEARNING SKILLS ALONE!
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.13 03:11:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Mr Zog
Originally by: Pantload The learning skills are intrinsic to the attribute and skill systems in this game now. The reason you want them out is the same reason that anyone on your side of the argument wants them out. I've said this before and I'll say it again. It's because you are all weak, lazy, and stupid. You want something for nothing and you lack any type of patience or vision
The most brought up method for getting rid of learning skill is removing the skills, +10 to base attributes, and reimburse players their skill points plus the cost of the skills books, either through 2x, 3x, whatever training time bonus, or straight up reallocation. You're getting everything you put into the skills back, maybe a little extra for your butthurt if CCP is feeling generous. If you didn't train to 5/5/5, you're getting that too now. New players are starting with nothing you don't have, in other words, no advantage, no gain, just minus some trash skills that CCP has said should never have been introduced in the first place.
You have yet to explain how this is "something for nothing."
Also, lol at the hard ass talk from you. Do you read your posts and think people take you seriously?
"You are all weak, lazy, and stupid!" *brushes Cheeto dust on shirt, sits down and plays a video game for hours*
Let's see...something for nothing...newbs get to train at the same speed that advanced characters can train at now and they don't ever have to invest the time in getting to that point. They just get it for free. Yeah...I was right...that is something for nothing. Is that clear enough dip****?
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.13 22:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Mathias Black Personally, I think the game would be better if some of these "patient" and "hard-working" people left. They seem like sad, bitter, hateful little trolls whose greatest accomplishment in life was that they were "patient" and "hard-working" enough to click a button in a game and sit there for a few months watching a bar fill up. Good lord, get over yourselves people. If watching the learning skill progress bar go up is the centerpiece of proving that you are a patient, hard-working, intelligent person, then you really need to turn off the computer and go do something in real life until you have something else to be proud of, and realize that Eve is just a game, and that being willing to sit through mind-numbing tedium in a video game doesn't make you anything but easily amused.
Let me restate what this says: "If you veteran players like your game the way it's always been then you need quit now. The newbs have had just about enough out of you."
The new player population in this game has the most incredibly bizarre ( and utterly undeserved ) sense of entitlement.
I don't believe that the Learning Skills were ever put into the game as a "weed out" mechanism. However they do seem to have become that. I feel a lot of that is due to people's perceptions of this issue more than there being something fundamentally "evil" about learning skills. I have a hard attitude toward people that simply want them ripped out of the game because of what that looks like to me as a veteran player.
I still do not support the removal of the Learning Skills from the game. I also hate the idea of newbs getting something for nothing, but there is a compromise solution that I could really live with:
All new characters start with 4/3/4 in Learning Skills and receive Cybernetics 1 right away. This will cause all new characters to start out with like ( rough guess here ) 450k-500k XP. That's fine. It's in the middle between now and the time when newbs would start with 800k+ XP. I say leave the double speed training bonus in place although the cut-off point could be adjusted +/- from 1.6m. There needs to be something else in place to act as a disincentive for training your learning skills past 4/3/4 during the double speed bonus period. New players don't need pressure on them to burn all that bonus on learnings or else be screwed. They need to be incentivized to train profession-related skills right away and save the more advanced learning training as a personal choice further down the line.
If, indeed, change is coming...this is the only one I can support.
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.14 20:03:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Mathias Black Edited by: Mathias Black on 14/06/2010 19:30:04 Stuff
We're all aware that your opinion is to just throw them out. You quoted my last post and didn't even include the actual suggestion for a compromise that I made. There are other solutions besides just ripping them out of the game.
I never said that new players need to be punished. Those are your words. I never felt like I was being punished when I was new. I never even gave the learning skills a thought. They are just skills like any other and require exactly the same amount of "work" to train. Which is none, actually. As you pointed out you simply click them on to train and wait for the bar to fill up. Just like all other skills.
If new players are given something that you and I had to spend time on, but they get it for no time investment and no ISK investment. That is the text book definition of "something for nothing" and I'm not a fan of that solution at all.
About the "Standing in the line at the Supermarket" metaphor...I don't believe it really illustrates the nature of the problem here. I don't see my trained Learning Skills as some outstanding achievement. Just another group of skills I trained. I'd be equally bothered if we were discussing the removal of any other skills from the game.
I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. Besides...there's no suffering here. You guys act like you have to line up and take 40 lashes. They are just another group of skills.
If, for whatever reason, It is decided that simply ripping them out of the game is the only thing to do, then it is fair that players who trained them already should be compensated.
Simply ripping the skills out of the game is not the only way to address this problem. I still don't like the idea of giving new characters something for nothing but I like it much much better than taking things out of the game that have been here for like 6 or 7 years. See my above post for the suggestion.
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.15 23:18:00 -
[17]
Daily Bump. I don't really think this thread needs to drop away just because it turned from a screaming match back into civil discourse. Come now y'all.
PL
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.16 15:58:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Tripoli
Originally by: Jenny Cameron
Originally by: Pantload About the "Standing in the line at the Supermarket" metaphor...I don't believe it really illustrates the nature of the problem here.
I actually like it. Standing in teh line you don't get anything yet, you can't eat or drink the things you want to buy (read: skills that actually allow you do do more things in the game), you just wait .. and wait .. and wait.
Actually, that gives me an interesting idea. What if they made it to where the learning skills actually did something for you other than raise attributes? For example, what if they allowed you to use certain levels of combat boosters, or better implants, rather than relying mainly on the Cybernetics skill?
Depending upon the exact proposal, I could definitely get on board with this as a compromise. Giving the learning skills a secondary effect is actually a pretty damn good idea.
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.16 19:01:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Pantload on 16/06/2010 19:05:31
Originally by: Guttripper
Originally by: Tripoli Actually, that gives me an interesting idea. What if they made it to where the learning skills actually did something for you other than raise attributes? For example, what if they allowed you to use certain levels of combat boosters, or better implants, rather than relying mainly on the Cybernetics skill?
Unfortunately, someone will complain that the learning skills are a mandatory requirement to achieve those aspects, especially on those same aspects that have effects and not a visual representation like a new module or ship.
I feel you with the sense of futility on this. However, it might just work. Especially if you consider this: At least these people are not screaming about fitting skills or cap skills or something else non-visual ( for right now anyway ). If it were just about any other useful bonus besides making you simply train faster, you might get some support for the idea.
I like this idea of giving the skills a secondary effect. Thereby making them more appealing to train. I also am still in favor of the previous proposal to start characters out with 4/3/4 in learnings. Either give them a good head start on them ( and a cost savings on the books ) or the skills some additional effect to potentially increase their appeal. Did someone say compromise? :)
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.18 17:04:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Faccat
Originally by: Vil'helm The option to train learning skills should be left as it is. It is exactly that, an option. I started out skipping learning skills, getting to learn the game and once i heard about the skill(s) i whent ahead and trained them. While this training was happening, i was able to continue playing and enjoying the game.
It helps to do them first, but its not a must.
It's not a must and it is an option. But it's a horrible option. CCP could introduce an elf race that flies space unicorns to the game and say, "it's an option, not a must, you don't have to play it" and they'd be wrong to do it.
Every other skill outside the learning branch trains for something. Everything in the learning branch merely trains the player to be able to train something. It would make more sense to train communications skills that unlock chat, email and notifications.
Learning skills are a bad decision that puts the starting player at odds with long term play. It's daunting enough to look at people with a 7 year advantage without having to make the decision to fall further behind. Yes, yes, you "earned" that advantage. You've reaped rewards of that advantage for 7 years. At what point would it cost you so little that removing this speed bump to the new player would be worth it? I promise you can still crush the new players in any way you choose, there is no need to run a few of those out before they even get in.
Ok, so the following is a given: "Some new players find the learning skills off-putting"
There are other ways to address that "problem" besides simply removing the learning skills from the game. If trying to appease as much of the player base as possible is one of the goals of pushing for change here...then other types of compromise solutions can and should be looked at besides simply ripping skills out of the skill system that have been there for more than half a decade.
New players have got to stop pointing to the older players and calling "no fair he's way ahead of me". I've been at this for years and there are still people who have literally twice the XP that I have. Doesn't bother me. Never has. New players really just need to jump in and start swimming if they wanna play the game. You can't stand on the banks and scream that the river is flowing too fast.
Having said all of that, I support 2 separate proposals so far that represent good compromises, help give new players a leg-up, and still leave the learning skill system in place. One proposal would see that all characters have or start out with a minimum of 4/3/4 in learning skills. Another proposal suggests giving the learning skills a secondary effect to make them more appealing to train. I like both of these suggestions or possibly some combination of them. I would also possibly favor lengthening the initial double-speed training bonus time. Again a small but noticeable thing that could really help give new players a leg-up and a running start.
Just some thoughts PL
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.21 18:30:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Swearte Widfarend
...Get off you entitled asses and choose like adults.
I've tried this approach in this thread. The "entitled ones" don't see it as a choice that you can make. They believe they are required to do it, and do it immediately after character creation and simply sit on station and be miserable for 2 months. They also believe that complete removal of the learning skills is the only solution and that no other compromises can exist. Oh and if you are a veteran player who went to the trouble to train those skills then CCP can just "throw you a bone" for your "butthurt" over the deal. Doesn't matter if you've been here for years. Doesn't matter if you have always been content to simply play the game the way it is. Doesn't matter if you never really gave the learning skills much of a thought. All of that is your problem as a veteran player. It's the system that's broken and it's broken so badly that new players are being driven away from this game in mass! Gee that's funny. They keep setting peak concurrent user records and this year's Alliance Tournament had the highest viewer numbers ever in the history of the tournament. Yup. The learning skills have killed the game. It will be dead next week. Someone should let CCP know about this. Learning skills are the worst game design decision ever made on any game ever in the history of humanity. I think I just rolled my eyes so hard that it actually hurt.
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.21 19:31:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Brazero
Originally by: Pantload
Originally by: Swearte Widfarend
...Get off you entitled asses and choose like adults.
I've tried this approach in this thread. The "entitled ones" don't see it as a choice that you can make. They believe they are required to do it, and do it immediately after character creation and simply sit on station and be miserable for 2 months. They also believe that complete removal of the learning skills is the only solution and that no other compromises can exist. Oh and if you are a veteran player who went to the trouble to train those skills then CCP can just "throw you a bone" for your "butthurt" over the deal. Doesn't matter if you've been here for years. Doesn't matter if you have always been content to simply play the game the way it is. Doesn't matter if you never really gave the learning skills much of a thought. All of that is your problem as a veteran player. It's the system that's broken and it's broken so badly that new players are being driven away from this game in mass! Gee that's funny. They keep setting peak concurrent user records and this year's Alliance Tournament had the highest viewer numbers ever in the history of the tournament. Yup. The learning skills have killed the game. It will be dead next week. Someone should let CCP know about this. Learning skills are the worst game design decision ever made on any game ever in the history of humanity. I think I just rolled my eyes so hard that it actually hurt.
If you are so unhappy with game design why don't you just leave, you sorry little ****ant. And the rest of you losers out there, hehehe, you know you really suck at this when you have to have the game changed to serve your tiny dried out brains.
Who the hell gave you morons the right to decide how ppl should play the game, what's fun and what's not fun. I have seen you morons post all sorts of garbage on these boards for years now, it never stops. And I'm so bloody tired of it all. Losers, that's what you are.
You get an F- for reading comprehension. Read back through this thread if you would please. So you can actually know what's going on. I have RAILED AGAINST removing or changing the learning skills. You should also adjust the gain on your internal sarcasm detector. My post was laced with it. Also, like the forum mod told me after I got cranked up on here...You gotta leave the insults and personal attacks out of posts on this forum.
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Posted - 2010.06.24 16:45:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Agent 42 Just remove learning skills, and increase the base skills for everyone as if all learning skills were maxed. Maybe reimburse spent SP in Learning so pilots can use them however they please. I doubt you would have serious complaints with that solution.
The problem with this idea, especially from the point of view of more veteran players, is that you are giving new players something VERY substantial for absolutely free. Whereas veteran players only ever had that through putting in the time to train it. Why should new players be given so much when older players never were. Why is this really a problem now and there are certainly other compromises that don't involve removing the learning skills from the game.
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Posted - 2010.06.24 18:17:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Pantload on 24/06/2010 18:25:08
Originally by: Tippia Wellà seeing as how they've discovered an SP reimbursement method, and how that mechanic will be deployed in just a few days, the whole question of "onoz, what will they do to old players who have trained them" suddenly became answered.
That change is coming in a few days? Proof or it didn't happen. kthxbai.
Originally by: Arte Edited by: Arte on 24/06/2010 17:14:44
Originally by: Pantload The problem with this idea, especially from the point of view of more veteran players, is that you are giving new players something VERY substantial for absolutely free. Whereas veteran players only ever had that through putting in the time to train it. Why should new players be given so much when older players never were. Why is this really a problem now and there are certainly other compromises that don't involve removing the learning skills from the game.
Been playing since 2004 so I probably count as a veteran - but I would have no problem with newer players getting a leg up bigger than I ever got. An example being the NPE, which was never great when I first joined and you very definitely didn't end up with millions in the account as a result of the tutorials like players get now. I don't resent folks getting a kick-start when they're new to the game, why would I? If they stick around because of a change, it can only be for the good of the game.
A change of the magnitude of removing learning skills would be in the same league of removing "warp to zero".
Like WTZ, there will be no mass exodus from the game as a result of it's introduction and people will adjust very quickly; quite probably getting more accounts as they can get useful alts quicker by virtue of the change.
I'm not predicting mass exodus. I'm not even threatening to emoragequit. I don't even mind giving new players an additional leg-up ( to a degree ) beyond what there is now. I have been advocating giving 4/3/4 learning skills for free to new characters. They get most of the effect right away, they save the skill book costs, and can go ahead and train profession-related skills right up front and save advanced learning trainings for later or never. I just think there are other possible solutions besides ripping skills out of the skill system.
Originally by: Agent 42
Quote: The problem with this idea, especially from the point of view of more veteran players, is that you are giving new players something VERY substantial for absolutely free. Whereas veteran players only ever had that through putting in the time to train it. Why should new players be given so much when older players never were. Why is this really a problem now and there are certainly other compromises that don't involve removing the learning skills from the game.
That's like saying the problem with an instant cure to cancer is that it's not fair to all the people who had chemo.
It's actually nothing like that. Cancer is a serious disease that happens in real life. We're arguing over the rules of a game here and whether to leave them as they've been or dumb them down for the newbs.
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Posted - 2010.06.24 19:48:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Pantload Edited by: Pantload on 24/06/2010 18:25:08
Originally by: Tippia Wellà seeing as how they've discovered an SP reimbursement method, and how that mechanic will be deployed in just a few days, the whole question of "onoz, what will they do to old players who have trained them" suddenly became answered.
That change is coming in a few days? Proof or it didn't happen. kthxbai.
This?
Ok. So they added a mechanism to reimburse skillpoints. Why does that necessarily mean that removal of learning skills is now a done deal? Why does the removal of learning skills have to be the only solution to this perceived "problem"? Why is there so much opposition to exploring other types of compromises on this?
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Posted - 2010.06.25 15:09:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Turdilious I disagree wholeheartedly. I have only seen players encouraged by learning skills. I have seen new players realise learning skills are so important since they pay off in the long term. This is very much like the benefits young people see after staying on to go to college. I actually have never once seen anyone put off by learning skills.
I donÆt think that many players have a problem with learning skills. Usually its people that have a problem with something that complain. If learning skills really do seem to be a problem for players then instead of removing them players could be given most of the learning skills when they first form their character.
My experience has been quite similar and I too support a type of compromise solution whereby new players get most of the learning skills up front ( like 4/3/4 ).
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Posted - 2010.06.25 18:32:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Guttripper Perhaps CCP could do away with all those pesky rank one skills like Electronics, Engineering, Gunnery, etc. since all new players MUST train them to level five to get anywhere in the game.
Since level four missions are the money makers in the game, CCP should really just remove level one to three missions, max out everyone in all the lower ships up to battleship.
You know, all these new players, and alt players, are being denied the true richness of this game by having to learn all those low level skills. So when CCP dumps the Learning skills since people are crying a tantrum, hopefully they'll really destroy this game and just max out people into a two to three year maxed out character mark.
Oh yea, sarcasm off.
This is my favorite post in days. Maybe even longer. I LOL'd. Thank you GR. You nailed how I feel about this sometimes!
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Posted - 2010.06.26 15:20:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Takseen Edited by: Takseen on 26/06/2010 14:44:59
Originally by: ViolenTUK Edited by: ViolenTUK on 26/06/2010 10:58:26
Originally by: Mathias Black CCP has already said they ARE removing the learning skills
No they haven't.
A few years ago they said they were considering removing them but that was a few years ago. CCP have no plans to remove learning skills. If you have evidence to the contrary please post a link and I will post a retraction.
You're half right, yeah. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAgUwEztj28 Fanfest 2009, watch from 38:00 onwards. They said they want to change the system and they don't like it. They've not said they'd remove them, but it sounds like they're thinking about it among various other options. And now that they have a method to hand out a set amount of skillpoints, flat out removing them and giving you the points back is looking more likely.
And it is mainly the veteran tears that they're concerned about, like the ones you can see in this thread.
This is rich. The real tears in this thread are from the butthurts like you who don't like the learning skills. You want them out of the game? That's your problem. It's very interesting this sense of entitlement you and the other newbs have about this. You've guys have got yourself worked up over this to a point where you think the actual problem is the people who are fine with the game the way it is and always has been. YOU ARE THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM. Get it?
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Posted - 2010.06.26 16:26:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Pantload
This is rich. The real tears in this thread are from the butthurts like you who don't like the learning skills. You want them out of the game? That's your problem. It's very interesting this sense of entitlement you and the other newbs have about this. You've guys have got yourself worked up over this to a point where you think the actual problem is the people who are fine with the game the way it is and always has been. YOU ARE THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM. Get it?
Sure got a lot of rage there dude, maybe you should learn to control it better.
Naw it's not about rage. It's me getting you corrected on your remark from before. You needed correcting and that's why I'm here. You're welcome. Enjoy.
Cheers, PL
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Posted - 2010.06.28 18:28:00 -
[30]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Guttripper Pantload suggested that players start with the first tier set at four and the third tier set at three.
Actually that was my idea and I put it up in the Features and Ideas. Not sure it will make a difference now since CCP appears to already have a plan in place concerning the learning skills, but feel free to /sign it.
He's right. It was his idea. Credit is given for this at the bottom of the post where I first mention the idea.
Stoicfaux: What plan is it that you think CCP already has for this?
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Posted - 2010.06.29 15:29:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Conmen So all you new players hoping for this you got at least one "non bitter vet" on your side and ...
I read that last bit of your post and almost fell out of my chair I was laughing so hard. Are you the "non bitter vet"? LMFAO
Consider training your language skill to at least a 4. Oh wait. That skill wouldn't do anything ( except make it easier for people to understand your rantings ). Of course if you do go ahead and train that, you can come back later and gripe and get it removed from the game. Seems to be all the rage these days.
As you were, PL
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Posted - 2010.06.29 16:35:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Conmen
Originally by: Pantload
Originally by: Conmen So all you new players hoping for this you got at least one "non bitter vet" on your side and ...
I read that last bit of your post and almost fell out of my chair I was laughing so hard. Are you the "non bitter vet"? LMFAO
Consider training your language skill to at least a 4. Oh wait. That skill wouldn't do anything ( except make it easier for people to understand your rantings ). Of course if you do go ahead and train that, you can come back later and gripe and get it removed from the game. Seems to be all the rage these days.
As you were, PL
You do know I am commander of all the ROFLCOPTERS correct? and sorry english is not my first language.
We're headed off-topic here, but I'll bite. What's a ROFLCOPTER?
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Posted - 2010.06.30 20:04:00 -
[33]
Before everyone starts singing "Ding Dong the Witch is Dead", CCP has not come out and said anything definite about removing the learning skills and compensating those that trained them. For those just joining this thread, the proposal to take out the learning skills and just give everybody the attributes is a player proposal and it's from three months ago if you'll note the date of the OP. I'm very much a fan of Guttripper's ideas on this...it would be a travesty to just flat give the bonus to everyone including people who never trained the skills. I like his proposal to just take the learning skills out and everybody gets nothing and everybody can just train substantially slower from now on and then we can all hate it together. Problem solved and nobody has to train those lousy learning skills.
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Posted - 2010.07.02 16:59:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Sub Prime
A whole lot of pretentious yada yada about your business acumen and your apparent inside knowledge of CCP's goals and motives.
Let's just say for the sake of argument that I own a business too ( because I do actually ). Guess what that adds to this discussion. Nothing.
You did say a couple of good things. You just need to take your own advice.
"Get to grips with the fact that Eve is not just about YOU." "Honestly, burst that bubble you sit in and be objective."
You presume that removing the learning skills makes Eve a better game. That is such an utterly subjective claim. I've heard every justification for this and I'm still not on board.
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Posted - 2010.07.02 18:45:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Sub Prime
Originally by: Pantload
Let's just say for the sake of argument that I own a business too ( because I do actually ). Guess what that adds to this discussion. Nothing.
You did say a couple of good things. You just need to take your own advice.
"Get to grips with the fact that Eve is not just about YOU." "Honestly, burst that bubble you sit in and be objective."
You presume that removing the learning skills makes Eve a better game. That is such an utterly subjective claim. I've heard every justification for this and I'm still not on board.
1) It wasn't prenentious yada yada, it was simple down to earth business. You must be quite ignorant (as a business owner) if you don't realise that. Also, if you don't think economics play a part in CCP decisions, you're a bigger fool that the poster I replied to. 2) The only reason you're not on board is because you're obstinate.
It was PRECISELY a bunch of pretentious bullcrap. Your counter argument is...if I don't agree with you I must be ignorant. Very clever. I definitely don't agree with you and your assumption that I must be ignorant because of that is, in fact, ignorant.
I never said I didn't think that CCP bases its decisions partly on economics. You said I said that. You gotta try to stick to reality here, chief.
Perhaps I am obstinate, but it's certainly not the only reason I'm not on board with this. Your thinking is entirely too narrow, too one-dimensional. This proposal to remove the learning skills and simply give everyone a bonus as though they had trained them to max is...well...charity. It's welfare. I'm not in favor turning New Eden into a welfare state and that's precisely where all this is headed. I read a proposal recently to remove attribute implants and just give everyone the +5! Where does this stop? I contend that it doesn't. If we give in on this, you guys will just move on to the next thing to ***** about.
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Posted - 2010.07.06 13:38:00 -
[36]
Originally by: AterraX /rant
Remove engineering skills...
Every player that want to fly a ships, need to train engineering skills. Be it for more cap, better cap recharge, more shield, better shield recharge ect.
This is unfair as EvE is a spaceship game and it is not fair that new players NEED to train these to get the maximum out of a ship. you need to "waste" over 5 million SP in Engineering skills in order to get the maximum out of your ship.
It can't be true that you need to invest so many SP's just to be able to really be able to use your ship.
I suggest that we remove all engineering skills, as there should be no need to train these skills, because it is unfair to new players...and older players that have their focus elsewhere is being punished for not training these skills.
That is what the hate to learning skills is really boiled down to.
Replace "Engineering skills" with any other sub catagory eg. "Navigation" or "Mechanic"...or any other skills group you havn't trained and you are buthurt over that others have trained and you have you very own formula for a whine topic that makes no sense.
Keep your ****ing hands of my 5.376.000 SP in learning...and I won't whine about and demand a removal of skills you have trained that I havn't...deal?
This.
@Takseen: There's only 3 skills in Engineering worth having and only combat pilots need those? what?! There are like 19 skills in that group and quite a few more than 3 are useful.
I like AterraX's argument though. Removing the learning skills entirely from the game is not the greatest idea in the world. It also won't cause new players to sign up and stick around in droves. After we remove the learning skills, then what? I've already seen the proposal to remove the attribute enhancing implants and just give everyone +5. Really? You people who don't want to be bothered with the learning skills, what next? What skill or group will begin to look to you like you should not have to "waste" your time on it next? Which skill or group will have to go away next? Which one will I get my next refund on? How far does this go really?
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Posted - 2010.07.06 14:27:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Pantload
@Takseen: There's only 3 skills in Engineering worth having and only combat pilots need those? what?! There are like 19 skills in that group and quite a few more than 3 are useful.
That's not what I said, perhaps if you spent less time constructing slippery slope arguments, you'd have noticed that.
I open up my Engineering tab in Evemon. There are 11 skills I haven't trained at all, 3 others I have at minimal levels, and 5 skills I have at IV or V, three of those being the "must-haves" that I mentioned. That's because the other skills either don't benefit me at all, or not enough to train over other skills that suit me more. As you said yourself, there's more than 3 useful skills in there, but they're not useful to *everyone*.
Now I open up my Learning tab. I've trained every single skill either to Level III or IV(clarity and presence are still at III). And I guarantee that nearly every pilot's skill tab would look almost exactly the same, except they might have more skills at V. That's because there aren't enough interesting choices in that area, except which skills you take to IV or V.
You are a funny little person. Did you get an A+ in your junior debate class?
It's a goofy statement that only 3 skills in the Engineering group are useful. It just is. You can't justify that fact away or the fact that you said it. Also, that is all quite off topic.
Mark my words: Removing the learning skills will not improve new player retention.
Interestingly enough, what it does do is give a leg up to players like Takseen there who is obviously lower skilled and can't be bothered to finish his learning skills. He ( and many of you ) just want that handed to you for free and easy.
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Posted - 2010.07.06 15:37:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Pantload
Interestingly enough, what it does do is give a leg up to players like Takseen there who is obviously lower skilled and can't be bothered to finish his learning skills. He ( and many of you ) just want that handed to you for free and easy.
So...you consider it mandatory to get learnings to 5/5, and you think this doesn't just prove my point even more? If there's only one "correct" level to have those skills at, then there's no choice or strategy involved as so many others have claimed.
I didn't say there is only 1 correct level. You did. You gotta get a firmer grip on reality there, chief. You and all the others who want rid of the learning skills. I trained mine to the level that matched my patience and my goals and the predicted pay off times based on how long I thought I'd play this game. If that is not strategy, then nothing is.
Face it, you only want rid of them so you can get the free bonus that puts you even with people who trained them all the way. Tell me again why new players should train at exactly the same speed as old players? After this goes through, all you who got your free stuff will realize that people out there also have cyber implants that might be better than yours. Then guess what! You'll want rid of those too!
You, Takseen, are a text book example of sense of entitlement run wild. You are the poster child for all the other whiners in this thread. I've been here a LOT longer than you. Explain to me why your opinion carries any more weight than mine. You can't because it doesn't.
I say if you and the others want rid of the learning skills then let's get rid of them. No free bonuses. No nothing. I don't even want my SP back in that case. I'd gladly get screwed out of all that if it would prevent you and all the others from getting something for nothing.
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Posted - 2010.07.06 16:34:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Pantload
Tell me again why new players should train at exactly the same speed as old players?
Good question, why shouldn't new players train at exactly the same speed as old players?
It is better than a good question. It's an excellent question and you didn't bother to answer it. You simply reframed it in terms of your sense of entitlement.
It is a very common game design element that a player's ability to gain SP/XP goes up as the player ages or becomes more advanced.
Show me another MMO where brand new players can earn SP/XP at exactly the same rate as older or more advanced players.
Besides, you are missing an important point here. You almost made me miss it. Luckily I'm quite a bit more clever than you. The problem is this: On this issue, you are the representation for the prosecution and I am the representation for the defense. The burden of proof here is ON YOU. You have not met your burden of proof.
You people who want rid of the learning skills remind me of children who won't eat their vegetables.
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Posted - 2010.07.06 17:05:00 -
[40]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Pantload You people who want rid of the learning skills remind me of children who won't eat their vegetables.
Good: "You can't have your dessert until you finish your vegetables."
Bad: "If you eat nothing but half-portions of vegetables for a month, you can have double desserts forever."
"half-portions of vegetables" = The accelerated training bonus and first free remap basically lets newbies train the learning skills in half the time that it took us vets to train them in the old days.
"double desserts" = worst case, you can almost double your training speed.
In the old days, the learning skills could be trained in small doses and as needed without being grossly inefficient. For new characters, that's no longer true.
Ok, I understand the point you are making. My question is this then: Are you still in favor of your recent proposal on fixing this or have you adopted more of a stance of removing the skills entirely?
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Posted - 2010.07.06 19:24:00 -
[41]
To clarify on a thought:
I'm not advocating a permanent training speed disparity. I think it should be easily possible for new players to catch up to the training speed of older players. I just think they need to have to do something ( anything ) game-related ( skill training, passage of time, something ) to sort of "earn" that. After a new player has played the game for a while and done whatever that thing is ( it's the learning skills and cyber implants currently ) then by all means let them train just as fast as the older players. I don't think the older players need to be able to train faster and faster as they go. There should probably be some practical speed limit on how cast one can train ( it's 2772 SP/hr atm and that seems about right ) and it should be straightforward enough ( maybe not fast mind you ) for new players to work their way up to that speed over the course of their first 6-12 months ( that timeframe is from my ass and is only an illustration ).
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Posted - 2010.07.07 19:23:00 -
[42]
Originally by: AterraX
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: AterraX Remove all learning skillbooks. Problem solved.
What? Oh, you want the attribute-bonus too, without any effort?
Sorry...don't have them trained, don't get the bonus.
That is the only solution I would support...
And that would help new players how exactly?
By all the whineposts, I say it would focus them on "useable" skills...I mean all the whine is about that you NEED to train learning skills. Remove them...problem solved.
Why do you think all new players should get a bonus for doing nothing?! A bonus other players spent time to get via traning.
It's seems to me that you don't see learning skills as the problem. The problem is that your a jealous about the attribute-bonus others get that you don't.
And why don't you also demand the removal of attribute implants?! What new player can afford +5 implants?
So i must conclude that you motive is dishonest and based on petty jealousy.
I've already seen the post where they were calling to remove attribute implants and just give everyone the +5. I support AterraX on this. I've said it before and I'll say it again: If we can't come up with a good compromise ( and not this goddamn welfare plan ) then we should take the skills out of the game entirely and just let everybody get ****ed and hate it. There is not a good reason to give a large bonus to people who would otherwise not expend the time to get the bonus for themselves.
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Posted - 2010.07.08 14:51:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Pantload on 08/07/2010 14:55:24
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Pantload I've already seen the post where they were calling to remove attribute implants and just give everyone the +5. I support AterraX on this. I've said it before and I'll say it again: If we can't come up with a good compromise ( and not this goddamn welfare plan ) then we should take the skills out of the game entirely and just let everybody get ****ed and hate it. There is not a good reason to give a large bonus to people who would otherwise not expend the time to get the bonus for themselves.
Who is talking about replacing the implants?
Just one example of a player calling for this:
Originally by: Aineko Macx Edited by: Aineko Macx on 01/07/2010 13:14:27 I had to lol, because that is exactly the opposite of what I'd propose: Remove attribute implants altogether.
Your proposal exacerbates the following issues: 1) It is an additional disadvatage to newer/poorer players; "pay to advance" is bad game design. 2) Even more hassle to keep using jump clones (and wait on timers) for doing pvp to protect expensive implants and be able to benefit from them when not pewing.
So: Hell no.
EDIT: When removing implants, give players +5 to attributes across the board to compensate. Those who already have implants (pluged in and not) can reimburse them for the ISK and LP they are worth in the LP store.
For the record: I don't support this either. It's some more of this "Welfare for the Newbs" mentality that is running rampant these days.
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Posted - 2010.07.08 16:41:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Guttripper
Originally by: Jasdemi
It's not like they'll be able to jump into Battleships in 2 days and pwn vets(which you're afraid off). Months of more skill training will be required just to become competitive in pvp.
Perhaps that will be your next rally crusade - skills taking too long to become competitive in pvp.
This. This is next. It won't stop with the removal of learning skills. There will be ever greater calls for changes to the game that result in more and more instant gratification. There is currently a prevalent ( and growing ) attitude that having to wait for anything to happen in this game is totally unacceptable.
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Posted - 2010.07.10 16:30:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Oh, you shouldn't worry about me. I'm playing EVE all day long, my learnings skills are also all maxed. I could be actually like you selfish vets and post dumb posts that learnings are good for the game. However I want the game to improve and the removal of learning skills will improve the newbie's experience, which will lead to more subscriptions. Grumpy vets will get their invested learning SP back anyway, so the chance is 99,99% that they WON'T leave the game due to this harmless change.
If you're going to be this ignorant and short-sighted, how can you possibly be so smug at the same time? Just a complete lack of any good sense is my guess. You remind me of quite a few rednecks I know. That is, dumb-as-hell and totally self-assured at the same time. It's very George Bush-esque.
Simply removing the learning skills from the game does not ( I repeat DOES NOT ) actually improve the game one bit. Furthermore, I'll go so far as to wager that it will ultimately have absolutely no effect on new player retention.
There are actually other possible compromise solutions but people like you ( and your ilk here in this thread ) lack even the most basic ability to think on that level. I've suggested some compromises and so have quite a few other people in this thread, but you people have turned this learning skill issue into some kind of a witch hunt and you're not the least bit interested in compromise.
The proposal to take the skills out of the game and just give everyone a bonus is a welfare program. Pure and simple. I won't support it. If the learning skills have to go out of the game then so should the bonus they give. I'll totally forfeit the bonus I get from having trained my learnings if it means that nobody gets a free hand out.
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.10 18:31:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Jack Coutu
Originally by: Pantload
Originally by: Jasdemi
Oh, you shouldn't worry about me. I'm playing EVE all day long, my learnings skills are also all maxed. I could be actually like you selfish vets and post dumb posts that learnings are good for the game. However I want the game to improve and the removal of learning skills will improve the newbie's experience, which will lead to more subscriptions. Grumpy vets will get their invested learning SP back anyway, so the chance is 99,99% that they WON'T leave the game due to this harmless change.
If you're going to be this ignorant and short-sighted, how can you possibly be so smug at the same time? Just a complete lack of any good sense is my guess. You remind me of quite a few rednecks I know. That is, dumb-as-hell and totally self-assured at the same time. It's very George Bush-esque.
Simply removing the learning skills from the game does not ( I repeat DOES NOT ) actually improve the game one bit. Furthermore, I'll go so far as to wager that it will ultimately have absolutely no effect on new player retention.
There are actually other possible compromise solutions but people like you ( and your ilk here in this thread ) lack even the most basic ability to think on that level. I've suggested some compromises and so have quite a few other people in this thread, but you people have turned this learning skill issue into some kind of a witch hunt and you're not the least bit interested in compromise.
The proposal to take the skills out of the game and just give everyone a bonus is a welfare program. Pure and simple. I won't support it. If the learning skills have to go out of the game then so should the bonus they give. I'll totally forfeit the bonus I get from having trained my learnings if it means that nobody gets a free hand out.
Bitter much? Also saying it's a welfare program needs some sort of explanation, you are just freaking out about SP's and you look foolish.
For the record, I'm not bitter at all. The bitter people in this thread are the ones who won't play the game the way it's always been. The ones who want the game changed and who will scream, cry, whine, gripe, and ***** until it gets changed. Those are the bitter people in this thread. This is not my whine thread. It's somebody else. I'm perfectly content with the game. Now and for the past several years that I've played it. I hope the game continues to be very much like or exactly like it has always been.
Welfare = free handouts for those who cannot or will not do for themselves.
Giving everyone a free bonus to attributes that would require absolutely no skill training, no ISK expenditure, nothing! Surely even you, Jack, are clever enough to see that this proposal to remove learning skills and give every one a free bonus is precisely welfare.
This has nothing to do with freaking out about SP. SPs are not even a concern here. I have plenty of SPs and I don't give a crap how many or how few anybody else has. This is about people and their whining and griping and the run away sense of entitlement and overwhelming need for instant gratification that is running rampant lately.
Oh and speaking of looking foolish: a) The day I give a crap what you think of me is the day I off myself. b) Did you have a point of view that is on-topic or did you just come to troll and aggravate the bears?
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.10 18:51:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Jasdemi QQ less, Pantload. Learnings will be removed, you must live with this. Poor guy, poor guy.
HAHAHAHA.
Same lame unjustifiable smugness eh, Jasdemi?
You have absolutely no proof that the removal of the learning skills is set in stone. None. I know the "proof" that you would offer. It's not compelling.
Have you read anything from the last CSM? Practically every thing the CSM presented ( changes, requests, fixes, improvements ) to CCP was met with a similar response: Development resources are all tied up on Incarna and Dust. A great deal of the CSM requests went on indefinite hold until who knows when. Good luck getting this change that you are so sure is going to happen so soon
Regardless of what happens, you needn't feign any concern over my well-being. I have none for yours so it's only fair after all.
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.10 20:01:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Jasdemi CCP stated at fanfest '09 that they want to get rid of the learnings.
I believe what the fellow from CCP really said was more along the lines of acknowledging that the learning skill situation is a thorny one, that they've looked at quite a few alternatives to the current situation, and that they've never come up with THE great solution so far. The particular footage of the discussion left the subject with something uninspiring like: they may just eventually pick a "solution" that ****es off the fewest number of people. Now that is "fair", in a way. It also kind of sucks too.
Originally by: Jasdemi Also a CSM member will raise this proposal at the next meeting or so.(http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1324024&page=14#417)
Perhaps/Probably the CSM will bring this up again soon-ish to CCP. There can be no guarantees if/when CCP will move in response to that.
Originally by: Jasdemi Until now I still don't know your reason why you want the learning to stay ingame. Why? What's wrong with you?
Well, it's not a particular love for learning skills, you see. It's about simply removing them and giving everybody a big fat free bonus. A nice big welfare check to go do whatever. Understand that a great many of the people who will receive this benevolent gift could never have been bothered to simply go do for themselves.
As to what is wrong with me...that's a fascinating question you ask. It speaks very much to your mindset that you would just naturally assume that because I am on the opposite side of an issue from you that there must be something "wrong with me". You and I have equal rights to our opinions on this issue and I'm more than content to debate ad nauseum with you or anybody else from the opposite side of this.
Originally by: Jasdemi Only proper reason how the removal of learnings will harm EVE/CCP is enough to shut me up.
Framing this as though removal of learning skills is somehow harmful to CCP doesn't even come close to capturing the exact nature of the issue here. Leave them or remove them is probably almost exactly the same effect on CCP at the end of the day. It's really just a matter of whether or not they will find out what is the will of the majority of the player base and then go with that. There is no doubt in my mind that removal of learning skills will have very little ( practically no ) effect long-term on new player retention. This game has continued to grow over all these years despite the "evil horror" of the learning skills. This game is long, complex, and forbidding. It always has been and always will be even if you remove the learning skills. The very nature of the game leads certain people to be totally hooked and certain people to rapidly lose interest.
As for shutting you up... That's not the point. Don't shut up. By god, defend your position! Just don't expect me to shut up.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.11 14:40:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Star P'ergish
Originally by: Jasdemi
Happy like this:
"HELL YES! Training learning skills is so much fun, I wish they'd never end! 3 months training only? WTF? I want to sit in a station for at least 5 year and do nothing. Please add Tier 20 learnings!"
Who is trolling now ? I think you do. You're using again a false axiom that in order to train learning skills you are not able to play the game itself. You know it is not true , we all know that you know that so you're a troll and even worse you are stupid and obsessed. Please continue posting there is no better way to ridicule the whole idea of removing learning skills than reading your "arguments".
This makes me LOL.
I'd be willing to wager that Jasdemi character is incapable of constructive posting. I think he really is just trolling this thread at this point.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.13 14:26:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Pantload on 13/07/2010 14:29:40
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 13/07/2010 10:16:46
Originally by: AterraX
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring But HEY you already get +8 to all and +7 Charisma when creating a character ... for doing nothing! The starting stats and general skillspeed are totally arbitrary.
But you don't get +10 on all attributes, so what is you point?
The point being that you're "given" +8s "for free", "welfare", "instant gratification" and so on. Why is +8 undiscussed, good, and +18 isn't? Or +10? Or +12? As I said, it's totally arbitrary. If CCP decides to make it +10, who cares?
Originally by: AterraX
Quote: And the "wowifying" argument is completely hysterical. How does removal of learning skills make EVE more like WoW? I even dare to say that in WoW you have to "work" for your SP while EVE gives them "for free", it's 100% "welfare". Time waiting and doing nothing does NOT equal "work" or "effort". Ask your boss!
I struck a nerve I see. Skills don't work like grinding, I'll give you that...but to remove learning skills makes EvE more like WoW. Unlike now, where learning skills differenciate players.
Those that HTFU up...and tranied the leraning skills relevante for them. And those that whine, becuase they want the cookie for free.
Stop *****fying Eve.
I still don't get the point. In WoW characters can't be "everything" like in EVE but very much restricted according to their "class" and "race" - so in a way far more differentiated. Next to that alsmost everybody trains the learning skills so whatever it is that makes characters different it's definitely not the learning skills.
This argument is full of failure. This +8 for free that you speak of...does not exist. New players now have the same exact pool of 39 base attribute points that characters have always had. They simply start with an even spread now ( 8/8/7/8/8 ) unlike how it was in the past. That probably explains why it is "undiscussed" as most people actually know this.
Originally by: Jasdemi
Learnings won't stay ingame for much longer, stop resisting with dumb arguments already.
You have to stop stating this like it's a fact. It's not a fact no matter how many times you say it. And why don't you have any good support or logic or rationale for anything that you say? You just show up...do a little lame smack talk and move one. Wash, rinse, repeat. You have yet to contribute one lousy thing to this discussion. You have, however, spouted the same incorrect information over and over again, but that doesn't help anything.
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.13 15:31:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Pantload on 13/07/2010 15:34:04
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 13/07/2010 15:12:36
Originally by: Pantload
This argument is full of failure. This +8 for free that you speak of...does not exist. New players now have the same exact pool of 39 base attribute points that characters have always had. They simply start with an even spread now ( 8/8/7/8/8 ) unlike how it was in the past. That probably explains why it is "undiscussed" as most people actually know this.
Really?
This +8 for free that I spoke of... of course do exist. That new players still have the same exact pool of 39 base attribute points that characters have always had doesn't mean they're not "free". So yes, those mentioned 39 "welfare, free, instant gratification" attribute points "that you don't have to work for" do exist.
I was wondering why giving those +8s (or as you more accurately say: 39 "free" attribute points) are ok and if CCP changes that to 40 points or 45 points people start to behave like the world is ending and threaten to ragequit? What if people had always started with 40 points instead of 39? Would you also campaign to reduce those to 39? Why the hysteria and anger about starter attribute points? The point here is of course to prove that people are against any form of change itself and not so much against the situation that will be caused by it as such because it's all 100% arbitrary.
Regards, the Fenring broad (The only thing you've ever said that I could agree with.)
It's interesting you'd mention hysteria and rage over attribute points. You realize the hysteria and rage is on the part of people like you and that Jasdemi and all the others who want the learning skills gone. You people are the ones hysterical about this. All from a series of offhanded quotes by CCP member during a random Q&A.
Also quite funny that you position yourself as some kind of shining progressive in a sea of conservatism. Most of us that are fighting this change are not opposed to change in general. Just opposed to this specific change. You seem too single-minded to understand that distinction.
Originally by: Jasdemi
PS: I recommend all new players to train something else, not learnings. As it looks, it's pretty safe that learnings will be removed. CCP would close all 3 threads, if this wasn't true.
This is total misinformation.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.14 13:54:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 14/07/2010 09:47:42
Originally by: Pantload It's interesting you'd mention hysteria and rage over attribute points. You realize the hysteria and rage is on the part of people like you and that Jasdemi and all the others who want the learning skills gone.
I don't see anything hysterical in wanting to make this a more attractive game for new players and getting a bit more value for your money. As you know I also think that with a skillqueue of 30 years, learning skills are a bit nonsensical. In fact it may attract more players that way, generate more income, enabling CCP to attract more devs to deal with other issues a lot faster. Even new players in favour of learning skills wouldn't have missed them if they weren't there in the first place. Imho it's a logical step towards the future.
And in fact I still haven't seen any good and valid argument against, I've seen a lot of anger and rudeness instead. Really, if you scream harder or curse more, that still doesn't make you right.
Originally by: Pantload You people are the ones hysterical about this. All from a series of offhanded quotes by CCP member during a random Q&A.
Sure.
It was actually also mentioned in some dev thread. But however you want to intepret those CCP quotes, it's definitely not: "we like the learning skills as they are and we don't have any intention of ever changing the current learning skill system". If granting the skills and reimbursing the skill SP and book cost is an option to deal with some learning skills problem and giving them for mission rewards is another, it may give a slight indication of which directions CCP are considering with those skills.
I'm not saying or even expecting that CCP is going to do something with this issue anytime soon but you must be really thick skulled if you think they're perfectly happy with the learning skills and how much time it costs to train them for new players - and have no intention whatsoever to change it. Just like with all EVE related changes, they take their time.
The hysteria and anger were your terms. Yours. You notice where I quoted you right? Funny that you'd use the term, then when I point out that it's more applicable to you, you go all serene and say there's no hysteria.
I'm not being rude. I'm strongly disagreeing with you. If you must know, I would consider you incredibly rude, as well.
I never said CCP likes them. I never said nothing would change about them. You said I said that. Speaking of thick skulled...I'm getting tired of having to explain this type of thing to you people but I'll probably keep having to since you guys love to put words in other people's mouths.
What I have always protested is you and all the other screamers getting a free hand out on this proposed welfare plan. That's the part I don't like. You people are unwilling to play the game as it is and so you want it changed to suit you better. If it has to be changed then so be it, but welfare handouts for you and the other screamers is not acceptable.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.14 14:29:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
What's against free stuff? You got 100k SP, expansions, ships for free, every new character gets some free money and a ship, you get 39 skillpoints for free to start with?! Why is all that ok and skillpoints isn't?
And if starter characters get something for free, you also will get your SP reimbursed. So where it comes down to is that basically everyone gets 6 weeks of game time for free, you included. Yes I know you won't like this gift.
And well many - if not most - of the people in favour of doing way with learning skills have them trained up anyway, most of us know that if CCP is going to do something about them it's most probably not going to happen this year.
And true, the game suits me better without learning skills. I have the opinion that they're pointless and a waste of time and money. "As you know I also think that with a skillqueue of 30 years, learning skills are a bit nonsensical. In fact it may attract more players that way, generate more income, enabling CCP to attract more devs to deal with other issues a lot faster. Even new players in favour of learning skills wouldn't have missed them if they weren't there in the first place. Imho it's a logical step towards the future."
So it may in the end benefit the game for us all, and you as well. But you don't want it just because you like all free things that EVE gives you but you won't accept it if we all get 6 weeks of free SP so starting players will have an easier time. I see no logic in that. I'd really like to see some better argument than "welfare handouts for you and the other screamers is not acceptable". If you have any.
I never wanted any of that free crap they gave away. I never asked for it.
It won't be a free 6 weeks of game time for me! They'll give me back the SP I gained while training during time I paid for. No free game time for me. You are sadly wrong in this assumption. It would be free game time for the new players though, eh? Kind of like my satellite provide offer free equipment upgrades to new customers and refusing me since I've already been with them for years. Nice loyalty on part of the service provider towards its loyal customers. Same thing here.
You want a better argument than "welfare handouts for you and the other screamers is not acceptable" and you make statements like "I have the opinion that they're pointless and a waste of time and money."
Giving all of you a handout is welfare. Pure and simple. Like welfare programs in real life, they don't promote people to do for themselves. It promotes people to have done for them. You and all the other screamers are dying to get your welfare handout so that the game will become much easier and more fun in your opinion. It won't though. You'll still have to train a bunch of other skills you need and those will take quite some time during which you'll have to wait. At what point will you get tired of having to wait on your other skills to train and decide to go on a new Jihad? I don't find this welfare proposal to be an acceptable solution to the so-called "learning skill" problem. Other solutions have been suggested but you've already decided you don't care for any of those and you'll just take your welfare hand-out thankyouverymuch. There's your expanded argument. You won't accept it any way. Too short sighted. Too caught up in trying to get your hand-out.
Also, you have to stop rattling on about the 30 year skill queue. Nobody needs every damn skill to a 5. That's why the skillset is so depressingly large. They want you to specialize.
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.14 15:24:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 14/07/2010 14:59:46 Wel it's clear you don't want any gifts and actually dispise them, perhaps you hate santa claus and thanksgiving too (I presume you're american, if not: your local present exchanging holidays)?
This is you assuming. Did you actually just go to "You hate Santa Claus"?! Now I know you're losing this argument.
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
- Still you don't answer my argument that no learning skills will attract more people. There's a lot of posts from people with friends who really didn't want to bother with learning skills so didn't sign up after trial. So no use denying that point.
Why do I have to answer you on this? I have brought in a bunch of friends and they all stayed. I can't say why other people's friends don't stay but learning skills aren't the main cause of new players losing interest and leaving game.
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
- Also more people playing -> more money for CCP -> more resoruces to attract devs to improve upon the game. Also no word from you to counter this argument.
Really? You state something ridiculously obvious and then challenge me to argue with it? Bah. Here's this: "The sky is blue. You haven't said one thing to counter this argument."
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
- 6 weeks of "free time" - I mean skilling time, not playing time. Everyone gets the learning skills to 5 and a refund for what you already had. It doesn't advantage me more or less than you. And new players also don't get 6 weeks of free time, they get the SP. Just like you and me.
Still a bunch of free crap. I don't want it and you don't need it.
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
I must say I still haven't read anything else than "welfare handouts for you and the other screamers is not acceptable" as your counterargument. Giving away skills "don't promote people to do for themselves"? What the hell is that supposed to mean, game-wise?
Then you didn't read. I told you that you'd not accept my expanded argument. You are still failing to make any convincing arguments from your side.
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:27:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Pantload on 14/07/2010 16:34:15 Edited by: Pantload on 14/07/2010 16:31:42
Originally by: Jasdemi Edited by: Jasdemi on 14/07/2010 15:40:22
Originally by: Pantload
There is definite proof but you wont post any? Post your proof or it doesn't exist. This paying for 3 months to do nothing in game is what YOU did. It's not what sane people should do.
Being efficient is not sane? Seriously dude, what the hell are you talking about? Don't you have even have some common sense?
You obviously have not been efficient. I've seen your SP total and it sucks considering your time in game. You sat on a station for months and did nothing. Almost or actually quitting several times ( You said this. Not me. I can find it for you. ) You could have actually had fun at first and been just as far as you are now ( probably farther as you would have stuck to it continuously ).
This is a game. Min/maxing to the extent that you sit on station and do nothing for 3 months is certainly efficient ( if you do it right which you didn't ) but it's definitely not fun. I never finished my learning skills until I was over a year into the game and I still had a lot more SP at the end of my first year than you have now. Plus I got to play and do A LOT of things right from the very beginning.
So much for your brand of efficiency. "Seriously dude, what the hell are you talking about? Don't you have even have some common sense?"
Also where is your definite proof that you talked about concerning learning skills? How can your proof be so definite and you be totally unwilling to share it with the rest of us?
And didn't you swear off trolling and turn pro-learning skills the other day?
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Pantload
Sure you did. You stated it as a fact several times. I'll be happy to show you where.
As for trolling... You may dismount from your high horse now. The Mods had to clean up after your trolling, as well
What trolling? I don't even know how it works. I'm pure as an innocent caldarian slave kid. Now stop talking off topic.
I personally strongly suggest to keep learning skills, because:
1. Learning skills keep impatient WoW players away. 2. Learning skills keep young players away, who can't pay severals months of subs for practically nothing. Paying several months for nothing ensures that only the most serious and mature players keep subscribing. 3. EVE is a harsh world, no free candies here, hence no free attributes. If you want free stuff, go back to WoW. Pathetic freeloader. 4. Learning skills reward patience and planning. People without patience will be disadvantaged, which is good. 5. Internet spaceships is a serious business, hence only the serious will survive. Serious players train learnings. nonserious ones don't. 6. Removal of learnings will kill the community, since all the lazy freeloaders will rush in and destroy it. Without learnings new players will train all skills in no time and become too competitive. Noobs are noobs. There's no exception. Survive the life of a noob or leave.
If CCP ever decides to alter the Learnings, I'll be one of the first players to leave. The date of learning skills removal will be the date of the transformation from EVE to EMHKO (EVE MEETS HELLO KITTY ONLINE).
Please CCP, don't remove or alter the learning skills. This system is working as intended. Don't break working features.
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.14 17:19:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Jasdemi
It's totally another thread mate. Don't mix them up.
Totally your words on totally the same subject. Not mixed up at all.
Originally by: Jasdemi
As for my "low" SP amount, the last 2 year were really busy due to a lot of school and work.
Skill queue?
Originally by: Jasdemi
You know, stuff you do in real life to make a living. Not selling alliances/corps in a internet spaceships game. Real stuff, which you're probably unaware of.
I have to shake my head at this. Not that it's any concern of yours but I own and run a business IRL. What I do in-game as an income stream is totally unrelated. You're going to have to smarten up enormously before you are in a position to condescend to the likes of me.
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.14 18:22:00 -
[57]
Originally by: omgevenmoarfreemoniez
Originally by: Pantload
I have to shake my head at this. Not that it's any concern of yours but I own and run a business IRL. What I do in-game as an income stream is totally unrelated. You're going to have to smarten up enormously before you are in a position to condescend to the likes of me.
Was **** so cash?
If you're going to quote me and respond, do try to make some kind of sense.
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.14 19:12:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Pantload on 14/07/2010 19:12:55
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Pantload
I have to shake my head at this. Not that it's any concern of yours but I own and run a business IRL. What I do in-game as an income stream is totally unrelated. You're going to have to smarten up enormously before you are in a position to condescend to the likes of me.
Hahahaha! Now he's showing off with his "real life". Dude, I don't care who you are or what you're doing in your real life. EVE is a game, don't mix these things with each other too much. If you want to talk about your real life problems & issues, try some therapist or w/e. However, Skill Discussion forum is definitely not suited for this.
The learning skills threads were now up for almost 3 weeks and no single thread was closed, hence it's not a rumor and the majority of posters also agrees to this change. Good luck resisting to the very end.
Your arguments are degenerating to a point where you will actually pretty much be a monkey throwing his own ***** at people very soon.
*edit* whoa. The forum's censor mechanism cuts out the word f.e.c.e.s. and not the word crap. It's a medical term, ffs.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.14 19:52:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Pantload on 14/07/2010 19:54:15
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Pantload Edited by: Pantload on 14/07/2010 19:12:55
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Pantload
I have to shake my head at this. Not that it's any concern of yours but I own and run a business IRL. What I do in-game as an income stream is totally unrelated. You're going to have to smarten up enormously before you are in a position to condescend to the likes of me.
Hahahaha! Now he's showing off with his "real life". Dude, I don't care who you are or what you're doing in your real life. EVE is a game, don't mix these things with each other too much. If you want to talk about your real life problems & issues, try some therapist or w/e. However, Skill Discussion forum is definitely not suited for this.
The learning skills threads were now up for almost 3 weeks and no single thread was closed, hence it's not a rumor and the majority of posters also agrees to this change. Good luck resisting to the very end.
Your arguments are degenerating to a point where you will actually pretty much be a monkey throwing his own ***** at people very soon.
Now that's very creative, I must say. What must I do to have same sick thoughts like you?
Monkeys throw their own poo at people. It's common knowledge among all of us higher life forms, monkeyboy. I don't make this stuff up. Nice failed attempt once again at taking the intellectual high road. That school that kept you so busy for 2 years that you couldn't work the skill queue...that didn't really do you any good did it?
*edit* This line of discussion is still way off topic. You are continuing to troll this thread and derail the discussion. You're doing it on purpose for your childish amusement. It really needs to stop.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.14 20:23:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Pantload on 14/07/2010 20:24:39
Originally by: Jasdemi Edited by: Jasdemi on 14/07/2010 20:07:14
Originally by: Pantload
This line of discussion is still way off topic. You are continuing to troll this thread and derail the discussion. You're doing it on purpose for your childish amusement. It really needs to stop.
Actually you're the one derailing. I'm always talking about learnings and how negatively they affect EVE. You in comparison are trying to derail this thread, so the mods close it, because you're against the removal of learnings. How about you get back on-topic and discuss about learnings, not about yourself and what you do in RL. For this purpose you can try the Out of Pod Experience sub-forum.
As the other fellow pointed out...you're the one who dragged real life occupations into this. Reality is your friend. Embrace it. You have got to get a grip on yourself.
Do you possess any type of impulse control or self-censorship mechanisms? Based on everything you've said so far, I'll be forced to assume that you don't.
Oh please. You aren't going to blame me for the forum mods closing that other thread. They closed it because it was thread #X on the subject and was totally unnecessary.
As I've always said, there may be something to be done about the learning skill situation, but removing them entirely from the game and instituting a welfare hand-out bonus program is not the only way and possibly not the best way. There are several other good alternative proposals and I'd be willing to bet there's an even better idea out there somewhere that I haven't even seen yet. You've got to keep your mind open to other compromise possibilities besides gutting a portion of the skill system and giving welfare handout bonuses.
Will you at least admit that there may be some type of other compromise solution to this problem? You admitting that would be one step towards achieving common ground and one step towards compromise and ultimately the best possible workable solution to what you guys see as a problem here.
You act like a person participating in a protest. You've got your big sign and you're banging on something, walking around in a circle and chanting the same things over and over again.
You are STILL steering this thread off course. You have to stop.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.15 14:39:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Obvious troll is obvious.
Irony anyone?
You didn't respond to any of the last things I said. So I would assume you are still too caught-up trolling and thread-derailing to actually discuss the original issue.
You jump on any new poster who joins this thread and you start badgering them. You are not contributing to this discussion in a meaningful way. You have got to focus. Stop banging the anti-learning-skill war drum for just a minute and think about compromise.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.15 16:37:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Pantload on 15/07/2010 16:41:09
Originally by: Jasdemi Confirming that Aganazer is an alt.
Please present proof in support of this so-called confirmation. Some strong proof would go a long way to supporting your claim.
You are still just badgering people. I keep saying this, you keep denying it, and you keep right on doing it. You are not furthering the course of this discussion in any way. You are just trying to annoy or irritate people. So be a good little boy and not such a tree-climbing crap-flinger and we can try to move this discussion back onto the subject at hand which is learning skills.
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
You¦re 100% sure you¦re not somebody¦s alt?
I'm sure I said the same thing to you on at least 2 occasions and you never answered to it. You are either the most miserable 1 month old player I've ever seen or you are just another alt. In the second case, post with your main.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.15 20:30:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
I have no intention of posting with my main, Miss Fenring is just a forum alt.
You admit you're an alt and you admit you don't want anyone knowing who your main is. That doesn't do good things for your credibility. Especially considering you dog-piling the other person for being an alt.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.15 20:50:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Pantload on 15/07/2010 20:50:21
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
I'm not denying anything and I never did. What has credibility to do with forum alts or mains? It's the same person. The arguments are still either valid or not. What's logical remains logical.
But you have some strange ideas about this too I guess? "posting for free without working for it" perhaps?
You don't see the obvious hypocrisy of you only posting on an alt ( because for reasons unknown you don't want us to know your main ) and at the same time you jumped in with Jasdemi and dog-piled that other person for being an alt? And you say I have strange ideas?
"posting for free without working for it" perhaps? - I believe this is your attempt at being cute and/or twisting my words and/or throwing them back in my face. Fail. You have to insist on making some kind of sense for this tactic to work.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.15 21:41:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Jeleka Valens Is someone named "Pantload," really giving a forum alt ethics lecture here?
Your name is a metaphor for the result of defecating in your trousers mate.
Yes on both counts. Although, I think me and everybody else knew the exact nature of the crude joke that is my name, thanks for explaining it to us!
You guys are obviously blind. A person who admits being an alt jumps on someone else for being an alt, I point it out, and you guys act like I'm the crazy person. Christ this forum is like a bloody lunatic ward.
Fenring: Seriously? Me an alt?. Look around will you. Find my years-old business thread still running or maybe pick up one of a number of issues of EON and look for the ads with my name in them. Hint: I'm on the inside front cover of the latest issue.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.16 14:01:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Pantload on 16/07/2010 14:04:08
Originally by: Jeleka Valens
Originally by: Pantload ...
What's any of that to do with the topic? I've browsed the length of this thread now and i'm seeing you derail it more often than the alts in here have. I can't decide wether you're attempting to submit that your elder opinion is somehow better representative of the EVE playerbase or that you're suggesting that new players (which you seem to have blanketed as having inhumanly short attention spans) are simply bad for the game. Neither one is true.
Give it a rest will you?
I don't care what you're attempting to decide. I never said my opinion was better. I'm here to argue against the removal of learning skills and the welfare program that has been proposed to replace them. I never suggested new players are bad for the game. I have actually stated the opposite. You clearly did not read this thread very well. I also never stated that new players have inhumanly short attention spans. Everyone else seems to think that. It's why apparently the learning skills must go so that we can keep the new players interested. In short, you're like Fenring, Jasdemi, and quite a few others who post in this thread. You're trying to put words in mouth that I never said.
Really? Give it a rest? I'm not your child that you can simply call down and have cow to you. I'll never give it a rest. Especially now.
Oh and...speaking of derailing...the only things you've posted have been massively off-topic and directed only at me. Let's get back to the subject at hand.
Originally by: Jasdemi Pantoad, stop derailing this thread already. In the past few pages you've been only posting off-topic and insulting everyone who wants learning skills to be removed. Can't you accept their opinion? We know that you don't want EVE to grow and give new players an easier launch, hence you troll and insult everyone here. It's your job after all to damage the community and I fully understand and accept this, but stop insulting everyone. Do your job in a creative way.
Also you have to accept that learning skills will be removed, it's just a matter of time. Live with this, my dear.
Stop trolling? Stop derailing? Said the pot to the kettle.
The statement that learning skills are definitely going to be removed is still not a factual one. Not one supported by any official statement from CCP. You just keep saying it over and over again. I have tried to get everybody here to at least attempt to discuss other compromise solutions to this problem and you're not interested. You only want your welfare hand-out bonus. I don't have to like that and I don't have to accept that. I don't think it's the best way to deal with this problem.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.16 17:02:00 -
[67]
What would be great to see is:
A compiled list of reasons cited by folks who are for and folks who are against changing the learning skill system as it currently is. Additionally, a compiled list of proposed changes to the system, the rationale for each proposed change and the arguments for and against each proposed change. Having this info centralized at the top of one post and maintained/updated so that a real "state of the argument" can be kept instead of having to scan through 20+ pages of me and the other monkeys engaged in a poo-flinging contest trying to sift out the important points.
Let's get all the ideas organized. Let's have a list of many people's opinions on the subject. Lots of folks cite similar points of view and similar reasons. Let's make it easier to see all this and understand the problem as a whole and to understand the true "will of the people" as a whole.
It's probably safe to assume that the learning skill "situation" won't stay exactly like it is forever. There's been too much screaming for change. Some type of change will be made. I don' think that removing the learning skills and giving a bonus to everyone so that everybody always trains at the same base speed is the best possible solution. Other alternate proposals have been made. Some damn good ones in fact. Some I support. I'm convinced there are other good ideas out there that should be brought up. The smartest way to "solve" this "problem" with the learnings is to discuss every possible alternative, weigh the pros and cons and then pick the one with most favorable ratio of pros to cons. Currently, the only idea that's really been pushed or jumped onto is this current one and it's not the difficult to see why. It's a giant giveaway. Big freebies for everybody. That type of "solution" should at least raise an eyebrow or give one pause to say "wait a minute. is this really the best way?"
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.16 17:32:00 -
[68]
Hmm. I'm trying to go on topic here and start the ball rolling again towards positive change. You guys have to set your hatred for me aside and help in this effort. Let's move forward. Please. |
Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.16 18:52:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Pantload Hmm. I'm trying to go on topic here and start the ball rolling again towards positive change. You guys have to set your hatred for me aside and help in this effort. Let's move forward. Please.
We gave you several chances already, but you derailing this thread. It's not 100% your fault, you're just a little bit more sensible to opposite opinions. I don't blame you for this, though.
I vote to just close this thread and move on.
You... Gave me several chances already... not 100% my fault... you don't blame me...
what? what?! WHAT?!
Did you not have any personal responsibility in the way this played out so far?
I agree that I am more sensible to opposite opinions, but I'm sure that's not exactly what you meant was it?
We can't just close this thread and move on. You and the others will pop up elsewhere and continue this. It's like playing a damn game of Whack-A-Mole.
Doesn't matter any more. I'm done. You guys butcher the **** out of the game however you see fit. Justify it in any way necessary. In the words of Eric Cartman: "Screw you guys. I'm going home."
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.16 20:09:00 -
[70]
I think the quote I gave says it all really. I realized that in order for me to continue here, I'd have to be able to look at myself in the mirror and say: "Yes. You are the biggest ****ing idiot here." That's clearly not true as you guys have me way out classed on that. So congratulations. You may continue this idiotic fight in my absence.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.08.10 17:04:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Star P'ergish
Originally by: GreenYoshi If someone feels that they need learning skills to make them competitive in Eve, but they shouldn't have to take the time to train them, then they need to HTFU and take an early lesson about the game they're getting into. This is similar to a PvP character asking to start with the basic support Gunnery skills at 4, because they need it to be competitive, and it's not fair that they don't have it already.
Train the skills, or don't, but don't change the system.
This
Yes this. However when I said the same thing many pages ago, the whiny troll *****es came out of the woodwork to jump on me about it. Funny they are all gone now. Although you can bet your ass they'll be back now that I posted in here again.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.09.30 19:05:00 -
[72]
Ok, here's some more marvelous comedy gems, and there's no need to thank me.
Q: How do you keep an anti-learning-skill-whiner busy? A: Write 'Please turn over' on both sides of a piece of paper.
Q: Why can't anti-learning-skill-whiners raise chickens? A: They plant the eggs too deep.
Q: Why were anti-learning-skill-whiners banned from using rectal thermometers? A: They cause too much brain damage.
Q: What is the difference between an anti-learning-skill-whiner and a Carp? A: One is a bottom feeding scum sucker and one is a fish.
Oh man...wow, you guys are a great audience! I'm here all week! Don't forget to tip your waitress and bartender.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.10.01 15:34:00 -
[73]
Ok. Thank you. Thank you. Good Eve-ning ladies and germs.
Q: What's the difference between killing time and killing anti-learning-skill-whiners? A: You can only kill just so much time!
Q: Why do anti-learning-skill-whiners stink so badly? A: So blind people can hate them too
Q: An anti-learning-skill-whiner and a crazy-right-wing-nut fall off a building at the same time. Who hits the ground first? A: Who cares.
Q: How do you hide your money from an anti-learning-skill-whiner? A: Hide it under a bar of soap.
Q: How many anti-learning-skill-whiners does it take to assembly a child's toy at christmas? A: Doesn't matter. They will only stand around and complain how long the assembly takes, how bored they are, and what bad design it was to have to assemble the thing in the first place.
What a great audience. Thanks again. Catch me this weekend. I'm doing 3 shows daily
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.10.01 16:10:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Forum Guy
Originally by: Pantload Ok. Thank you. Thank you. Good Eve-ning ladies and germs.
Q: What's the difference between killing time and killing anti-learning-skill-whiners? A: You can only kill just so much time!
Q: Why do anti-learning-skill-whiners stink so badly? A: So blind people can hate them too
Q: An anti-learning-skill-whiner and a crazy-right-wing-nut fall off a building at the same time. Who hits the ground first? A: Who cares.
Q: How do you hide your money from an anti-learning-skill-whiner? A: Hide it under a bar of soap.
Q: How many anti-learning-skill-whiners does it take to assembly a child's toy at christmas? A: Doesn't matter. They will only stand around and complain how long the assembly takes, how bored they are, and what bad design it was to have to assemble the thing in the first place.
What a great audience. Thanks again. Catch me this weekend. I'm doing 3 shows daily
I'm just waiting for you to say something that's actually funny. Hope you achieve that by the time I've skilled everything to the max in Eve.
You're the guy who heckles the comic when you're sitting in the comedy club right? I'm just workin' here. I don't come down to the corner where you work and slap the ****s out of your mouth do I?
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.10.04 01:05:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Forum Guy
Originally by: Guttripper
So on that note, instead of just removing the Learning skills, why not just start each player with all rank five and lower skills maxed out? This will allow new players to utterly by-pass those worthless cruiser and frigate ships while having a good head start towards battleships. Then at least new player can be competitive with veterans and everyone can fly battleships and better from the start.
Then as each year passes, upon a pilot's anniversary, that player will get a "cost of gaming" boost if they fall behind upon the average. Meanwhile, those that pull too far ahead will be "taxed" back towards the average. It would be quite unfair to those new players that older players have better implants than they could afford starting off.
Meanwhile, CCP will have worked out a system that completely removes the total number of skill points a pilot possesses and leave a system that a pilot either knows a particular skill or does not. This will alter how the clones are set-up, but at least those thick-skull individuals like Jennifer will finally stop sputtering that higher skill point totals equals greater power instead of just more options. By then, her new rallying cry will be it is unfair how some people can train more skills per year than others and all the skills should be regulated to the same rank as a balance.
Good times ahead for this game when everyone is flying the same big ships and on equal terms. Unless a pilot does not have the best Internet connection so CCP will have to introduce subtle line noise across all connections and decrease or increase as necessary to keep it all balanced.
Carry on Jen - your "I win" button might just be in sight!
Guttripper you do make me laugh, you do tend to take your arguments to extreme (makes me wonder if all you are really doing is trolling). All the pro remove learning skill posts (sensible posts not trolls)I've read over the months are only talking about removing the learning skills and replacing them with the relevant attribute points nothing else.
Yeah...silly him for having an opinion different than yours. "Make the game faster and easier" is the only popular opinion these days. God forbid a person be in favor of "Leave the game as-is or no bonuses for anybody". I agree with Guttripper. If the Learning skils must go, then so should the bonuses they convey. No reason to give out free attribute bonuses to everyone. Totally unfair and arbitrary really to give out those kinds of bonuses.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.10.13 15:51:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Logical Chaos
EVE needs a steady source of new players. But seriously, try to get someone into the game when he has to spend...
This is a fascinating and flawed argument.
Eve has continued to grow every year and is now the biggest it has ever been and is still growing. The new players ARE coming. Plenty of them will wash out because they don't like the game but that is to be expected with any game. If software developers could find a way to make a game that absolutely everybody loves, they'd be richer than Bill Gates. That just simply isn't going to happen.
As for trying to get someone new people into this game...I've done that repeatedly. Most of them have been around for years now but some are new within the last 6-8 months. I've had an incredibly high success rate recruiting friends and acquaintances into this game.
In conclusion, I agree that Eve needs new players, and they are coming. Still. In droves. I don't agree that all new players freak out when they see what's involved in this game. Some do, and quite frankly who needs them? This game is not for everybody and I applaud CCP for not bending over backwards every time somebody whines about something.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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