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Cearain
Caldari
ReSlavers
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Posted - 2010.03.25 14:44:00 -
[1]
Make the amount of loot that drops related to the number and type of ships attacking. So if its a solo fight of equal ship class, all (or close to all) of the loot will drop. If you have a frigate getting ganked by a whole fleet not much (if anything) will be left.
I suggest that this makes sense that less equipment would be damaged if there were fewer and less powerful attackers. In fact it always seemed odd that you could have just as much loot drop if you were killed by 60 others as you would if you were killed by 1.
BTW I don't think it will "fix" blobbing but it will be *something* to mitigate against it.
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Liol Wongster
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Posted - 2010.03.25 14:50:00 -
[2]
Actually a sensible idea.
Id support that if it was made a real CSM proposal.
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Galega Ori
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Posted - 2010.03.25 14:53:00 -
[3]
I would support this as well if it was made a proposal in the assembly hall.
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr
GK inc.
Panda Team
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Posted - 2010.03.25 15:10:00 -
[4]
Pointless idea. Do you think the blobs care about the loot? All they care about is their objective. All this will do is punish the small gangs who brought one or two people too much on their op (really awesome, shutting people out for economic reason), and rewards the idiots that jump into a large gatecamp by not having anything drop.
Also, how will you balance this against capital ships? You practically NEED an overwhelming force to kick one's ass.
___
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Cearain
Caldari
ReSlavers
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Posted - 2010.03.25 15:31:00 -
[5]
Thanks for the support of the idea. I figured I run it by here for feedback before doing a formal assembly hall proposal.
@Grarr Dexx
It just seems to me that if you kill something with "overwhelming" force you shouldn't expect to find allot of usefull parts left over. You can disable a car with a single machine gun, or you can have 30 people with bazookas fire at it all at once. I think you will likely find more useful parts in the first wreck than the second.
The fact that eve doesn't recognize this actually seems to be pro blob mechanic.
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Mimiru Minahiro
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Posted - 2010.03.25 16:02:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Mimiru Minahiro on 25/03/2010 16:02:42
This has been proposed several times over the years. For a full understanding of perhaps why this may/may not be desireable you can search for those threads.
Additionally, 1 person can disable a car with 1 bazooka and 30 people can disable a car with bolt action .50cal elephant guns. There would be a lot more left of the car in the latter scenario however.
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Cearain
Caldari
ReSlavers
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Posted - 2010.03.25 16:34:00 -
[7]
I did what I consider a reasonable search but couldn't find the threads.(lots about level four loot drops etc) Maybe you could give us the skinny on the pros and cons?
Also with respect to your second paragraph the loot drop would not just be based on the numbers of pilots attacking but the class of ships as well. So if you have 15 frigates kill one battleship the battleship will drop more loot than if you have 15 battleships kill one battleship.
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Mimiru Minahiro
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Posted - 2010.03.25 18:43:00 -
[8]
Going off of memory here:
*Given current logging mechanisms all gang/fleet fights would wind up lootless
*This change just shifts blobs to different ship sizes. This is especially of concern now since the changes in bombers,AF's, and Dramiels.
*NPC/gate guns are still counted on mails, so even solo small ships who kill aggressive larger ships may not benefit if its on a gate/station.
*Encourages docking games
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Cearain
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.03.25 19:45:00 -
[9]
Thanks for the post.
I think the first concern would be the main issue. All large fleet battles (even if they arenÆt lopsided blob versus a lone ship) would leave behind a nearly lootless battlefield. I agree this is a considerable disadvantage as the side that holds the field in these engagements should be rewarded.
In order to work around this CCP would need to create a method to account for the size of each fleet in the engagement. Currently Killboards attempt to show ôrelatedö kills, but they are far from reliable in doing this. Maybe if eve tallied the ships in each fleet it would work out better. (killboards donÆt seem to know who was in what fleet and what size it was but eve does) Add up the ships in each fleet and do the calculation on a fleet versus fleet basis.
Perhaps we would just have to accept this downside. If you want to pvp and get loot you shouldnÆt be in large fleets where everyone is shooting at the same ship/primary. If you want to pvp for loot you need to go small gang.
As for the shifting blobs to different size ships I think the calculation could account for whether a ship is a t2 or a faction or pirate fit û if it chose. I donÆt think 5 t1 frigates should count the same as 5 battleships. Beyond that I donÆt really want to get into how that would be done but it certainly could be done.
IÆm not sure why gate guns shouldnÆt count. Figure out a value for them and count them. A ton of npcs might skew things though. They surely couldnÆt count a npc battleship the same as a pvp one. But again I think thatÆs a matter of doing a decent job creating the calculation. Not really an argument against using one.
IÆm not sure how it would encourage docking games.
Noobs who have to fly in larger fleets due to less sp and actual pvp skill would not get as much loot. I think this is how the game rightly works in every other aspect. Not sure why pvp loot drops should be different.
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Mimiru Minahiro
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Posted - 2010.03.25 23:42:00 -
[10]
 Originally by: Cearain
In order to work around this CCP would need to create a method to account for the size of each fleet in the engagement. Currently Killboards attempt to show ôrelatedö kills, but they are far from reliable in doing this. Maybe if eve tallied the ships in each fleet it would work out better. (killboards donÆt seem to know who was in what fleet and what size it was but eve does) Add up the ships in each fleet and do the calculation on a fleet versus fleet basis.
Perhaps we would just have to accept this downside. If you want to pvp and get loot you shouldnÆt be in large fleets where everyone is shooting at the same ship/primary. If you want to pvp for loot you need to go small gang.
As for the shifting blobs to different size ships I think the calculation could account for whether a ship is a t2 or a faction or pirate fit û if it chose. I donÆt think 5 t1 frigates should count the same as 5 battleships. Beyond that I donÆt really want to get into how that would be done but it certainly could be done.
IÆm not sure why gate guns shouldnÆt count. Figure out a value for them and count them. A ton of npcs might skew things though. They surely couldnÆt count a npc battleship the same as a pvp one. But again I think thatÆs a matter of doing a decent job creating the calculation. Not really an argument against using one.
IÆm not sure how it would encourage docking games.
Noobs who have to fly in larger fleets due to less sp and actual pvp skill would not get as much loot. I think this is how the game rightly works in every other aspect. Not sure why pvp loot drops should be different.
1)What do you mean Eve keeps track of fleet size? Are you talking about your "fleet chan"? What about small groups that dont bother (pick up gangs)with fleet because nobody has any leadership skills worth mentioning? How do you account for it then? This opens up the possibility of gaming the system.
2)Its not a matter of if people are pvp'ing strictly for cash, but that people sometimes rely on loot as a mechanism to lessen the blow of PvP.
3)On "not wanting to get into how it would be done"... start working on details and you will quickly learn why implementation is where such an idea gets bogged down quickly.
4) Currently one of the few ways that you can counter docking games is via "MOAR DPS!!!". Your system creates a dis-incentive to bother shooting people who play such games.
5) Dis-incentivizing pvp for noobs seems to be counter to CCP's overall plan. So while you think such mechanics are fine, CCP does not (necessarily) agree.
The biggest impact your idea will have,in my opinion, will be to make shooting the goodie haulers almost not worth the time in high and low sec because of gate and concord mechanics. Given some of your other posts it would not surprise me in the slightest to find out this is exactly why you proposed the idea in the first place however.
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Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2010.03.26 00:34:00 -
[11]
This is actually a good suggestion. I'd vote for it. See if you can get a CSM to represent your idea.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Cearain
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2010.03.26 16:18:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Mimiru Minahiro
1)What do you mean Eve keeps track of fleet size? Are you talking about your "fleet chan"? What about small groups that dont bother (pick up gangs)with fleet because nobody has any leadership skills worth mentioning? How do you account for it then? This opens up the possibility of gaming the system.
2)Its not a matter of if people are pvp'ing strictly for cash, but that people sometimes rely on loot as a mechanism to lessen the blow of PvP.
3)On "not wanting to get into how it would be done"... start working on details and you will quickly learn why implementation is where such an idea gets bogged down quickly.
4) Currently one of the few ways that you can counter docking games is via "MOAR DPS!!!". Your system creates a dis-incentive to bother shooting people who play such games.
5) Dis-incentivizing pvp for noobs seems to be counter to CCP's overall plan. So while you think such mechanics are fine, CCP does not (necessarily) agree.
The biggest impact your idea will have,in my opinion, will be to make shooting the goodie haulers almost not worth the time in high and low sec because of gate and concord mechanics. Given some of your other posts it would not surprise me in the slightest to find out this is exactly why you proposed the idea in the first place however.
Thanks for you post.
I will address each of you concerns by the number you gave.
1) The idea of comparing whole fleets is just a possible workaround for the problem of large fleet battles leaving no loot. We donÆt need to use this workaround if we can swallow the idea that large fleet fights where 50 people primary the same ship wonÆt leave allot of loot.
But lets say you thinks this is an insurmountable problem. Eve knows if you are in a fleet and what ships are in the fleet. So it might just do a comparison of the fleet that kills the victim and the size of the fleet that the victim was in in determining loot drop. When multiple fleets fight each other I agree it may get complicated. You may just want to do something where you count the fleet that delivered the killing blow and the victims fleet. Would this lead to large battles involving many smaller fleets joining instead of on larger fleet? Maybe who knows. But again there are various reasonable ways to do this my point is just to throw the idea out there for discussion.
2) Ok I donÆt think it matters how you describe it. Unless ccp worked something out where you could compare whole fleets (as described above) then you wouldnÆt have the blow of pvp lessened in larger fleet battles. You would have the blow of pvp lessened for smaller engagements because more loot would drop.
3) IÆm not so sure it would be that tough to do. CCP already gives values for the different ships for the alliance tournament etc. ItÆs just that I donÆt think I know enough about the game to do this myself for all the various ships. I never even flew a capital ship so I donÆt think I should be the one assigning their relative values. (maybe capital ships shouldnÆt be included in this at all) But other players could do this and reach a general consensus û although there will of course be some gray area and tweaking.
4) Based on what you said it seems you would have less incentive to engage ships right at a station which I think would lead to fewer docking games.
5) Not sure that it is a disincentive for noob pvp. ItÆs an incentive for smaller gang as opposed to larger fleet pvp. Are noobs more often found in larger fleets? I really donÆt know.
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.03.26 18:19:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Cearain
5) Not sure that it is a disincentive for noob pvp. ItÆs an incentive for smaller gang as opposed to larger fleet pvp. Are noobs more often found in larger fleets? I really donÆt know.
For one, it is a disincentive for a "10 noob frigs can kill big bad vet ship" scenario, which is one of the EVE's selling points.
As another variation "don't want to see you three in newb cruisers, I will allow only my friend in pimped T3 in a gang".
While this idea has some merits, I am afraid possible advantages will barely outweigh flaws, if at all. And it will require lots and lots of efforts to implement.
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Cearain
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2010.03.26 19:28:00 -
[14]
Di Mulle
The method would take into account both the number of attackers and the classes of ships involved. So 10 frigates taking out a battleship would yield more loot than if 10 frigates taking out a cruiser. Likewise the downed battleship would yield more loot if taken out by 10 frigates than it would if blown up by 10 cruisers.
The details of how we would take into account if the frigs were t2 or pirate frigs etc. I'm leaving open.
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.03.26 20:15:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Cearain
The details of how we would take into account if the frigs were t2 or pirate frigs etc. I'm leaving open.
Well, you certainly shouldn't...
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