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Spii't Gelekk
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Posted - 2010.04.03 11:53:00 -
[1]
I find it really annoying that we're hearing NOTHING from CCP about macro-miners and measures from CCP to counter them. It is game-breaking as it doesn't allow the market to work as it should (which will be even more important in the upcoming expansion). Why CAN CCP effectively shut down RMT traders, but not macro-mining?
Here's a few suggestions:
1. If a char is mining for more than 8 hours straight (should be easy to detect), logoffski. The few non macro-miners that mine that long  wouldnt have problem with that. Make it random (between 4 - 12 hours f.i.), so that it can't be countered with other macro's, or timers.
2. Make some random manual periodic operation mandatory. I don't care what it is, make up some RP thing about drones or whatever that have special abilities to disturb mining and you only have to target them to stop them.
3. Do some uber secret code stuff that counters macros (and fyi everyone who knows google can find them within 5 minutes for free). We don't have to know what it is, but how hard can it be??
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Aera Aiana
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Posted - 2010.04.03 12:11:00 -
[2]
The only reasonable thing to do about it is a serious mining overhaul - make mining interactive on a gameplay level.
I think some miners might be offended by the nagscreens you're suggesting as it would imply that mining has a subzero priority for CCP.
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Niara Takeva
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Posted - 2010.04.03 12:24:00 -
[3]
If its so easy to pogramm for you, then this is the way to go for you
http://www.ccpgames.com/en/jobs.aspx
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2010.04.03 12:29:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Chribba on 03/04/2010 12:29:35
My guess is that they work like they have in the past (Un/Holy Rage) to map and watch the miners to strike down big time on them taking out their ISK selling alts and whatever at the same time.
/c
Secure 3rd party service | my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' |
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Nika Dekaia
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Posted - 2010.04.03 12:41:00 -
[5]
You won't get rid of ISK sellers as long as people are willing to buy those iSK. But if you kill the demand you will kill the macros/farmers.
CCP seems to track the ISK sellers and punish those buying ISK, while providing a CCP sanctioned method of ISK buying through GTCs. And then, from time to time, they do the unholy rage thing.
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Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2010.04.03 12:43:00 -
[6]
IF you find a macro petition it with why you think they are, they do get acted on.... maybe even get some friends and gang thier hulk/whatever, thats fun as there is nothing funnier than a pod running a mining macro imo.
I can¦t work out if ur a miner that is out competed by better skilled and experienced players, a cretin who lives in a high density area of high sec where roids suck, or just plain emo ranter wanting attention.
...... continues overleaf. |
Aliraxi
Gallente
Cow Boys From HeII
High Treason Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.03 13:03:00 -
[7]
You can't add interactive games!
Chribba wouldn't be able to efficiently use his Veld-quadruplets 
And we all know Chribba is really CCP in disguise 
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.04.03 13:23:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Aera Aiana
The only reasonable thing to do about it is a serious mining overhaul - make mining interactive on a gameplay level.
This. Mining will always be a terrible income unless ore becomes scarce or mining it takes actual skill.
If you want to boost mining income, make mining difficult and dangerous.
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Jerid Verges
Gallente
The Society of Innovation
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2010.04.03 13:29:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Aera Aiana
The only reasonable thing to do about it is a serious mining overhaul - make mining interactive on a gameplay level.
This. Mining will always be a terrible income unless ore becomes scarce or mining it takes actual skill.
If you want to boost mining income, make mining difficult and dangerous.
You mean like Missions?
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Kallieah
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Posted - 2010.04.03 13:31:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Spii't Gelekk
1. If a char is mining for more than 8 hours straight (should be easy to detect), logoffski. The few non macro-miners that mine that long wouldnt have problem with that. Make it random (between 4 - 12 hours f.i.), so that it can't be countered with other macro's, or timers.
They already do that through a clever combination of socket closures and lag disconnections.
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Capt Fossil
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.03 13:50:00 -
[11]
In before the "There aren't that many Macro Miners, prove it to me" usual suspects.
This is a huge problem, and has a much bigger effect on the price of minerals than all of CCP's latest "solutions" will change.
Now combine the upcoming Insurance changes and mineral re-balancing with some serious warfare on Macro-Miners and we might see some real improvements.
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Kephael
Caldari
SERENDIPITY INC
R-I-P
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Posted - 2010.04.03 14:00:00 -
[12]
A bigger issue is the macro ratters that some alliances protect.
__________________________________________
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.04.03 14:21:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Jerid Verges
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Aera Aiana
The only reasonable thing to do about it is a serious mining overhaul - make mining interactive on a gameplay level.
This. Mining will always be a terrible income unless ore becomes scarce or mining it takes actual skill.
If you want to boost mining income, make mining difficult and dangerous.
You mean like Missions?
That... is a seperate issue.
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.04.03 14:38:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Zartrader on 03/04/2010 14:43:44
Well, I'm always suspicious of what is going on in the game unfortunately. Why did it take CCP so long to find out about that Alchemy exploit and deal with it?
There seems to be two rules:
1. If you macro and keep your head down you're safe.
2. Macro miners are only dealt with when they get beyond a certain critical mass.
There are several ways to deal with them with a bit of willpower and imagination. You do not have to stop it, just make it not worthwhile, that's a lot easier to do. But like it took forever to implement a basic spam reporting function (with all the lame excuses from some players saying it won't work despite good evidence from other games that they do) there seems to be a deep resistance to any changes.
In fact it seems there is a lot of the player base who is happy as it is and they bring up any random objection they can to stop anything changing. What's wrong with you guys? You like it as it is?
Until CCP deals with this past banning a few times I will remain cynical.
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Yuda Mann
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Posted - 2010.04.03 14:44:00 -
[15]
Before you create another stupid emo tears thread about macro miners you really should at least make a tiny attempt at understanding the macro software they use.
There's two types of macros. One is the basic keyboard/mouse macro that you record movements with and play back. The other is far more sophisticated.
The really nice macro programs have OCR and can read the screen. A macroer using these will fly their hulk fleets slowly across an asteroid field only mining all the 5% and 10% ore. They can identify rats as they warp in and release drones and kill them. They know exactly which station to fly to and dump ore at even if the order on the overview changes.
When you figure out how to stop a macro program that can READ then please let CCP know because until then all you can do is spend your days suiciding or wardecing them. No excuse for not knowing all this either. OCR macro programs have been around for at least 2 years if not more.
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.04.03 14:50:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Zartrader on 03/04/2010 14:54:22
Originally by: Yuda Mann
Before you create another stupid emo tears thread about macro miners you really should at least make a tiny attempt at understanding the macro software they use.
There's two types of macros. One is the basic keyboard/mouse macro that you record movements with and play back. The other is far more sophisticated.
The really nice macro programs have OCR and can read the screen. A macroer using these will fly their hulk fleets slowly across an asteroid field only mining all the 5% and 10% ore. They can identify rats as they warp in and release drones and kill them. They know exactly which station to fly to and dump ore at even if the order on the overview changes.
When you figure out how to stop a macro program that can READ then please let CCP know because until then all you can do is spend your days suiciding or wardecing them. No excuse for not knowing all this either. OCR macro programs have been around for at least 2 years if not more.
So we give up and do NOTHING about it? There is not one game mechanic ingame to even attempt to reduce the impact of this. Putting your hands up and admitting defeat before even trying will not solve anything. There are several solutions they can try, some will impact miners (captcha being the most obvious) and some won't (gameguard)
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Silvensis
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.04.03 14:52:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Aera Aiana
The only reasonable thing to do about it is a serious mining overhaul - make mining interactive on a gameplay level.
I think some miners might be offended by the nagscreens you're suggesting as it would imply that mining has a subzero priority for CCP.
I've long thought that mining could be made into a less obvious time sink by making it something you actually have to do, rather than just watch.
I can't think of a downside to this - except that it'll make it harder to automate, which I imagine would be a downside for macroers. But for me, as an actual player, I'd love it. Make it skill-based - in the sense of the player's skill at it, with results modified by the character's skills - and as far as I'm concerned you're onto a winner. I see no reason why there needs to be any automation in mining at all. Personally, I pay to play the game, not watch it play itself. |
Capt Fossil
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.03 15:02:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Yuda Mann
Before you create another stupid emo tears thread ....
Almost stopped reading right there. Glad I didn't though.
Quote:
about macro miners you really should at least make a tiny attempt at understanding the macro software they use.
I had heard of the OCR software, wasn't aware of how sophisticated it is.
Macro Miners are online for many hours on end, lots of them 23/7. When you see one guy, who is 2 months old, who is selling you at least 20M trit, 10M Pyerite and 5M Mexallon everyday since he was born, I think he may be involved in a macro op. Oh, and he is in an NPC corp of course.
If I was a miner, I would report them all. Heck I don't even mine and have reported some, with less than satisfactory results.
My point is, all these insurance and mineral re-adjustments will only cause the price of all the low end minerals to tumble even lower, UNLESS the macro's are run off.
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.04.03 15:04:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Silvensis
Originally by: Aera Aiana
The only reasonable thing to do about it is a serious mining overhaul - make mining interactive on a gameplay level.
I think some miners might be offended by the nagscreens you're suggesting as it would imply that mining has a subzero priority for CCP.
I've long thought that mining could be made into a less obvious time sink by making it something you actually have to do, rather than just watch.
I can't think of a downside to this - except that it'll make it harder to automate, which I imagine would be a downside for macroers. But for me, as an actual player, I'd love it. Make it skill-based - in the sense of the player's skill at it, with results modified by the character's skills - and as far as I'm concerned you're onto a winner. I see no reason why there needs to be any automation in mining at all. Personally, I pay to play the game, not watch it play itself.
I agree with this. I did a bit of my own research recently and ironically the only thing that caused macro writers any issues was the inconsistent and clunky way CCP had written some of their code
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Boomershoot
Caldari
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.04.03 15:26:00 -
[20]
You don't want CCP to kill macroing. They would use methods that would completely kill the game itself.
Trust me, just keep reporting when you see em.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.04.03 15:29:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jerid Verges
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Aera Aiana
The only reasonable thing to do about it is a serious mining overhaul - make mining interactive on a gameplay level.
This. Mining will always be a terrible income unless ore becomes scarce or mining it takes actual skill.
If you want to boost mining income, make mining difficult and dangerous.
You mean like Missions?
This.
This is clearly a signature. |
Atticus Fynch
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Posted - 2010.04.03 15:58:00 -
[22]
Answer: Mining License
Treat mining like missions. You need to check in with a mining agent at the system you wish to mine at, purchase a mining license for a small fee. The license could be based on time, say 2hrs, or the license could be based on mining load. Whichever works best for CCP.
Now that would make mining without a license illegal, and subject to concord interaction.
With some clever coding, this could work and end the macro mining.
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True Sight
THORN Syndicate
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2010.04.03 16:13:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Spii't Gelekk
I find it really annoying that we're hearing NOTHING from CCP about macro-miners and measures from CCP to counter them. It is game-breaking as it doesn't allow the market to work as it should (which will be even more important in the upcoming expansion). Why CAN CCP effectively shut down RMT traders, but not macro-mining?
Here's a few suggestions:
1. If a char is mining for more than 8 hours straight (should be easy to detect), logoffski. The few non macro-miners that mine that long wouldnt have problem with that. Make it random (between 4 - 12 hours f.i.), so that it can't be countered with other macro's, or timers.
It would take them 5 seconds to make a script to bypass that.
Originally by: Spii't Gelekk
2. Make some random manual periodic operation mandatory. I don't care what it is, make up some RP thing about drones or whatever that have special abilities to disturb mining and you only have to target them to stop them.
It would take them no time to make a script to interact with this, and also add an unpleasent mechanic to every single legitimate pilot.
Originally by: Spii't Gelekk
3. Do some uber secret code stuff that counters macros (and fyi everyone who knows google can find them within 5 minutes for free). We don't have to know what it is, but how hard can it be??
Yeah... its really THAT easy, could you do us a favour and start on that, just email it to CCP when you've finished, surely it can't be that hard!
--------------------------------------
True Sight
President Foiritan Emissary
--<<!SUPPORT DRONES!>>--
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RootEmerger
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Posted - 2010.04.03 16:19:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Zartrader
So we give up and do NOTHING about it? There is not one game mechanic ingame to even attempt to reduce the impact of this. Putting your hands up and admitting defeat before even trying will not solve anything. There are several solutions they can try, some will impact miners (captcha being the most obvious) and some won't (gameguard)
Giving up its not the problem, accusing ccp of doing nothing when all the "easy solutions" given in this thread would only make the life miserable for real miners and pose no problems to macroers is another matter.
CCP -is- working hard to fix the problem, they just dont have any magic wand to handwave the macroers away magically, as you seem to wish...
As for "Gameguard"... lol, do you really want a rotkit that do wathever it want with your computer, make your life miserable with all his bugs and problems, make your machine vulnerable to all the malwares that link to the gameguard-rotkit to be invisible from antiviruses AND DONT STOP ANY MACROERS?
try asking to any players of gameguard-"enhanced" games if theres botters/macroers in their mmog...
As for making mining interactive and... -FUN-... yeah, I'm all for it :)
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Spii't Gelekk
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Posted - 2010.04.03 16:48:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Spii''t Gelekk on 03/04/2010 16:54:49
Edited by: Spii''t Gelekk on 03/04/2010 16:48:44
First off, we've kept it quite civil! no flames and whatever, wow :)
Second, mining is advertised as a valid career which new players start out in (really you can miss it, it almost looks like EVE is ONLY about industry, anyway..) By only marginally dealing with the issue CCP are also INSULTING new players by not giving them what they deserve in terms of income and, more importantaly, respect by dealing with the issue.
Ofcourse some players report, we don't even know if CCP really acts on these petitions consequentially. And is it the players responsability in the first place to 'solve' this problem?
I'm not a miner myself, but i heard several times from large producers that they are 100% POSITIVE that AT LEAST 50% of their materials are bought from macro-miners.
I could go on, but i think it's CCP responsabilty to at least give out some statement that they acknowledge the importance of this issue.
edit, with this post i think i make it clear i'm even more angry about the fact that CCP is not even acknowledging the problem. Solving it would be step 2. I DO really think it is easy, nobody mines for 10+ hours straight. Looking at this kind of behaviour would seem very logical place to start.
And the issue of creating a 'nuisance' for miners. What is worse, making the stuff you do basically a waste of time, or clicking on something once in while. If you explain this to them, i am SURE these guys would totally understand. |
Boomershoot
Caldari
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.04.03 16:54:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Spii't Gelekk
we don't even know if CCP really acts on these petitions consequentially.
And that's none of your buisness, really.
IF CCP asks you for something that's another matter entirely. Else, we should all shut our mouth about it and just keep silently reporting. Like i kept doing for almost 3 years consecutively.
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Zirse
Minmatar
Integrated Astromechanics Corp.
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Posted - 2010.04.03 16:56:00 -
[27]
Move all the veldspar to low-sec to be taken advantage of organized mining fleets, not the afk ******s. To give solo miners an actual chance in hell, create a new 'covert' mining barge that utilizes certain alloys to make the ship not show up on the directional scan. Still shows up to probes and of course visually, so it won't be able to protect the afk-tards.
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Taxesarebad
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Posted - 2010.04.03 16:57:00 -
[28]
CCP tracks them and doesnt instaban then like other MMO's. they see who they are giving thier isk too. what they are BUYING as well. macro miners are just as bad as macro mission runners. there was a blog post about how the banned a bunch of macroers and watched how the markets changed. they also unbaned them for a while and watched prices drop as there was a mass sell off of those characters.
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Vonlutt
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.04.03 17:09:00 -
[29]
Don't forget about the ratter macros.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.04.03 17:58:00 -
[30]
Quote:
I DO really think it is easy, nobody mines for 10+ hours straight.
Lol. The price of ore is down, so if you used to have to mine for 6.5 hours you now have to mine for 10. Lots of people log in for 10 hours straight, and I would love to see the outrage if people got booted from the game in their 10th hour of ratting, missioning, wormholing, or PvPing.
This is clearly a signature. |
Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.04.03 18:01:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Zartrader on 03/04/2010 18:06:48
Originally by: RootEmerger
Originally by: Zartrader
So we give up and do NOTHING about it? There is not one game mechanic ingame to even attempt to reduce the impact of this. Putting your hands up and admitting defeat before even trying will not solve anything. There are several solutions they can try, some will impact miners (captcha being the most obvious) and some won't (gameguard)
Giving up its not the problem, accusing ccp of doing nothing when all the "easy solutions" given in this thread would only make the life miserable for real miners and pose no problems to macroers is another matter.
CCP -is- working hard to fix the problem, they just dont have any magic wand to handwave the macroers away magically, as you seem to wish...
As for "Gameguard"... lol, do you really want a rotkit that do wathever it want with your computer, make your life miserable with all his bugs and problems, make your machine vulnerable to all the malwares that link to the gameguard-rotkit to be invisible from antiviruses AND DONT STOP ANY MACROERS?
try asking to any players of gameguard-"enhanced" games if theres botters/macroers in their mmog...
As for making mining interactive and... -FUN-... yeah, I'm all for it :)
I'm the first to admit any idea I may think of could be dumb. I'm reacting more to those who seem very resistant to even considering it. They put objections up and that's that with no interest in thinking of ways to stop it.
I'm also aware CCP can't publicly state what they do as that will tell the botters. So my criticisms of them may well be unfair.
But botters are like ****roaches. You kill as many as you can and then do a big extermination when you get infested. But they never go away and by then the damage is already done. So the trick is to make it less economic for them to do it.
Anyway more interaction would be the best way as you say. I see no reason why there is a game element that you can do completely AFK with no apparent attempt to make it even remotely more interactive. It may even draw some of us into doing what amounts to watching paint dry right now.
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madteamkiller
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Posted - 2010.04.03 18:12:00 -
[32]
Every 1 hour while mining you are asked to type in a security code that comes up on the screen (kinda like the ones you get when you register on some forums). The code/image is generated server side and so cannot be completed without human eyes at a keyboard.
Just my idea and although it hurts non macro users, it's a small price to pay for insurance that someone is always at the keyboard atleast once an hour and not once a day.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.04.03 18:16:00 -
[33]
Originally by: madteamkiller
Every 1 hour while mining you are asked to type in a security code that comes up on the screen (kinda like the ones you get when you register on some forums). The code/image is generated server side and so cannot be completed without human eyes at a keyboard.
Just my idea and although it hurts non macro users, it's a small price to pay for insurance that someone is always at the keyboard atleast once an hour and not once a day.
It was already explained in this thread that the software can read the screen, so no go.
This is clearly a signature. |
Capt Fossil
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.03 20:51:00 -
[34]
the Old Captain dons his Nomex suit, and calls in his corpies in Logistics Ships
I think I have a solution. Actually, I have been thinking about this one for awhile.
Macro Bounty Hunters
This would require some serious work by anyone involved. So it should have a serious reward, as it also would make a very positive impact on OUR game.
CCP comes up with an observation "checklist": system, date and time observed, characters working in the group, ship types, station they dock in etc. Reports are submitted to whatever GM CCP designates.
How do you get designated as a Macro Bounty Hunter. Submit 5 petitions that CCP finds to be Macro Miners, or Ratters, mission runners for that matter, just as important. Then they designate you an "Official" Macro Bounty Hunter. CCP then gives you a way to directly contact a GM, and a report format.
The rewards.....
1. 2 Macro'er proven, and you get a plex.
2. One RMT Macro'er banned, you also get a plex.
I think it is a workable concept. Of course some will disagree and it needs refinement.
Quote:
I find it really annoying that we're hearing NOTHING from CCP about macro-miners and measures from CCP to counter them. It is game-breaking as it doesn't allow the market to work as it should (which will be even more important in the upcoming expansion). Why CAN CCP effectively shut down RMT traders, but not macro-mining?
Cmon CCP talk to us.
the old Captain, knowing how some folks react to out of the box and potentially controversial ideas, kicks in his Maelstrom's burner, heading off station about 50 km, logistics support in tow
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RootEmerger
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Posted - 2010.04.03 22:43:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Originally by: madteamkiller
Every 1 hour while mining you are asked to type in a security code that comes up on the screen (kinda like the ones you get when you register on some forums). The code/image is generated server side and so cannot be completed without human eyes at a keyboard.
Just my idea and although it hurts non macro users, it's a small price to pay for insurance that someone is always at the keyboard atleast once an hour and not once a day.
It was already explained in this thread that the software can read the screen, so no go.
Actually reCaptcha and other really advanced captcha systems would work (*) - still the server load would be noticeable and would be really annoying for players.
Originally by: Capt Fossil
the Old Captain dons his Nomex suit, and calls in his corpies in Logistics Ships
I think I have a solution. Actually, I have been thinking about this one for awhile.
Macro Bounty Hunters
This would require some serious work by anyone involved. So it should have a serious reward, as it also would make a very positive impact on OUR game.
CCP comes up with an observation "checklist": system, date and time observed, characters working in the group, ship types, station they dock in etc. Reports are submitted to whatever GM CCP designates.
Little problem: how many gm has ccp?
a server with 50.000 players at primetime, lets say 90.000 logged accounts around the 23hours every day...
How many reports you can get each day? 1000? 5000?
and how much time a gm will need to check each report to distinguish true macroers from people that simply are unsociable or plain griefer-reporters?
that's a lot of people to hire and pay...
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2010.04.03 22:51:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Kephael
A bigger issue is the macro ratters that some alliances protect.
This was much more fun when you could rope them into a corp with a 0% tax rate, then trap them by changing roles every 24 hours to stop them leaving, and hike the tax knowing that they couldn't petition you for it
---
34.4:1 mineral compression |
Capt Fossil
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.03 23:10:00 -
[37]
Quote:
Little problem: how many gm has ccp? etc, etc
How many do they have working on Macro petitions now? I know I have received a pretty quick response on the ones I have petitioned. Not really happy with the results, but the response was quick.
I realize it's a problem, and it's work for CCP and it's work for the players. I also think the FIVE (5) petitioned REAL Macro'ers requirement to become a Macro Bounty Hunter would negate 75% of the subscribers. 
Hey. I said it needs work, both the idea and the implementation.
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Boomershoot
Caldari
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.04.03 23:20:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Capt Fossil
Quote:
Little problem: how many gm has ccp? etc, etc
How many do they have working on Macro petitions now?
I was able to count 18 different GMs answering macromining petitions in the last 2 months.
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Capt Fossil
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.04 01:26:00 -
[39]
Quote:
I was able to count 18 different GMs answering macromining petitions in the last 2 months.
And the results of those petitions???
Did you care enough to follow up and see what happened to them? The ones I petitioned were slapped on the wrist and seem to be back in action.
TBQH, after reading your Bio, did maybe they ignore your advances? Sorry if I am reading you wrong, but if not, go crawl back into your sewer.
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Yuda Mann
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Posted - 2010.04.04 05:16:00 -
[40]
Originally by: RootEmerger
Actually reCaptcha and other really advanced captcha systems would work (*) - still the server load would be noticeable and would be really annoying for players.
Captchas are broken all the time. You're still doing nothing but annoying the hell out of legitimate players. Would you really play a game that required you to enter a captcha while doing anything npc related?
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Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2010.04.04 11:36:00 -
[41]
I don't understand why so many people care that others are macro mining. Seriously, who cares?
Without some real data and facts, don't go off on how it ruins the economy deflating value. Lets see the data. After unholy rage common ore prices continued to decline which would go against common dogma that macro miners were suppressing ore values.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.04.04 13:37:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Mr Kidd
I don't understand why so many people care that others are macro mining. Seriously, who cares?
Are you seriously this stupid or are you just trolling?
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Tippia
Reikoku
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.04 13:45:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Mr Kidd
After unholy rage common ore prices continued to decline which would go against common dogma that macro miners were suppressing ore values.
…except for the fact that CCP increased the spawn rates for the lower-end ores. So no, it does not go against the "dogma".
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.04.04 14:58:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Tippia
àexcept for the fact that CCP increased the spawn rates for the lower-end ores. So no, it does not go against the "dogma".
CCP increased the spawn rate for veldspar by about double. The obvious outcome was that the value of veldspar (and thus tritanium) fell through the floor.
The obvious "fix" to macro miners is to reduce the spawn rate of veldspar and scordite - these ores are available in infinite quantities if people are smart about it.
As for macros, they'll be with us forever. Any task that is mechanical and repetitive will be automated by the smart people - that's what machines and computers are for. If a game mechanic is so necessary yet so mind numbingly repetitive that people prefer to automate their game play, there's something wrong with the mechanic.
Now go fill system belts with Fool's Crokite or Flawed Gneiss, require miners to get asteroid fields spawned for them by mission agent (eg: those from mining corps), and watch as the macro miners simply up the ante with smarter bots.
At some point, someone has to decide that the reason macros hurt the economy is that they are doing the same things as normal players, but doing it 23/7. Normal humans won't be playing more than a certain number of hours a day. If you have a full time job, you might squeeze in six hours logged on during work days, and upwards of 10 on the weekends - assuming you're absolutely fanatical about the game.
So starting with that basis, set up mission agents (combat, mining, etc) to only produce a certain number of missions a day for each character. It's really as simple as that. Provide a means for players to trade mission rights, and make missions artificially scarce (only produce rights equivalent to 98% of the missions currently being run), there you have a new market which allows people with lives outside the game to make more ISK from people who live inside the game.
I really do believe the macro-player "problem" can be addressed by defining the number of hours a week CCP expects a normal sane human being would play this game assuming said human had a day job or was at school/university. Working backwards from that, figure out a way to ration the game activities and produce an artificial shortage for each player, of the means to produce ISK or minerals.
But I digress.
[Aussie players: join channels ANZAC or AUSSIES] |
small chimp
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Posted - 2010.04.04 15:01:00 -
[45]
fanboy says: how do you prove they are macroers? are you just jealous because they are more hardworking than you?
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Boomershoot
Caldari
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.04.04 15:12:00 -
[46]
Originally by: small chimp
fanboy says: how do you prove they are macroers? are you just jealous because they are more hardworking than you?
You don't. You just report suspects.
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Dr Sodius
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Posted - 2010.04.04 16:33:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Dr Sodius on 04/04/2010 16:36:50
what do we need is a new mining mechanism ala some sort of mini-game for mining to prevent afk-mining or at least macro-mining!
how about if you need to calibrate the mining modules if you want to start mining from an asteroid?
There would be 4 (or more) different properties where every asteroid type has different ones:
density, surface condition, rotation and magnetism (for example)
if you start mining, you get a new window where some sort of graph pops up ... then you see 4 different spikes representing the above written properties and you calibrate your mining modules (dragable bars or numbers)
if you calibrate your modules optimal, you get 105% mining output (example)
any deviation from the optimum would lead to a reduced mining output by 5%
each time you want to start mining, you have to calibrate your mining modules new
each asteroid type has random properties, so you wont find any velspar asteroid A with the same properties as veldspar asteroid B ...
the most difficult part in this idea, i believe so, would be the creation of such a graph, where macros cannot read it but for humans, its simple to understand
sty, english isnt my native language
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Zex Maxwell
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.04.04 16:37:00 -
[48]
Don't worry little one. soon low end ore will get cheap and macro miners will get less for their work per hour.
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Warrior Xena
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Posted - 2010.04.04 19:19:00 -
[49]
how about a non-ocr readable, "prove that you're a human"-type image/question ( like the ones that are used on the site contact pages against spammers ) that the miners should complete every 20-30 minutes ?
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Edenn
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.04.04 19:36:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Kallieah
Originally by: Spii't Gelekk
1. If a char is mining for more than 8 hours straight (should be easy to detect), logoffski. The few non macro-miners that mine that long wouldnt have problem with that. Make it random (between 4 - 12 hours f.i.), so that it can't be countered with other macro's, or timers.
They already do that through a clever combination of socket closures and lag disconnections.
Very true.
I wonder when they add something to make it harder how hard will it be?
123 |
Boomershoot
Caldari
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.04.04 19:42:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Warrior Xena
how about a non-ocr readable, "prove that you're a human"-type image/question ( like the ones that are used on the site contact pages against spammers ) that the miners should complete every 20-30 minutes ?
Sorry, there's nothing that a sophisticated-enough ORC or a determined-enough programmer can't overcome.
Crowbars are the exception.
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Shadow Bloodtear
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Posted - 2010.04.04 19:43:00 -
[52]
Every solution mentioned here is either terrible, won't work, or super annoying to 97% of the legit players in the game. Incremental changes to detection of botters and bannings will just let them adapt super fast. The wave of dropping 2000 accounts at the same time gives a crippling blow to their operations, as opposed to a minor annoyance. All reported macroers must be hand checked by CCP or else it's subject to abuse (like the auto bounty on someone if reported 5 times). Server side detection of regular patterns and suspicious activity can auto flag accounts for investigation, but a CCP rep must still make the final call. I do believe they are doing all of these things, and so far it seems to be working.
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Spii't Gelekk
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Posted - 2010.04.04 19:58:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Shadow Bloodtear
I do believe they are doing all of these things, and so far it seems to be working.
Is that wishful thinking? People from all over the place saying it's infested with macro-miners.
To your point that's 'crippling to operations', first off, i think it can be reasonably assumed MOST of these accounts are payed with PLEXES. CCP doesn't see a dime (well not directly anyway) for those accounts. Second, all these accounts are a HUGE burdon on system resources. That has been released by CCP themselves in the aftermath of Unholy Rage. Everone knows lag is a HUGE issue, dealing with macro-miners would help a bit.
That's the financial side of things, for the required manhours, IF they would do it manually it would be a one-off time-investment. Surely there most be a way to automate detection -> logoffski -> banski
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Shadow Bloodtear
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Posted - 2010.04.05 00:35:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Spii't Gelekk
Originally by: Shadow Bloodtear
I do believe they are doing all of these things, and so far it seems to be working.
Is that wishful thinking? People from all over the place saying it's infested with macro-miners.
To your point that's 'crippling to operations', first off, i think it can be reasonably assumed MOST of these accounts are payed with PLEXES. CCP doesn't see a dime (well not directly anyway) for those accounts. Second, all these accounts are a HUGE burdon on system resources. That has been released by CCP themselves in the aftermath of Unholy Rage. Everone knows lag is a HUGE issue, dealing with macro-miners would help a bit.
That's the financial side of things, for the required manhours, IF they would do it manually it would be a one-off time-investment. Surely there most be a way to automate detection -> logoffski -> banski
Let's not pretend CCP doesn't get a dime for PLEX. Every PLEX is paid for by someone who wants RMT, they pay CCP (or a 3rd party who pays CCP). Therefore, every PLEX represents $15 that CCP has already received. CCP makes money for every account that's active in the game.
Lag is not an issue when it comes to mining. The lag/grid loading problems only surface when massive fleets of 250+ converge on each other through cynos. Macro miners are never involved in this, or generally anywhere close to this. Further more, because of separation of servers hosting each solar system, the demands on a single region are generally independent of another. Thus any system resource drain by macro miners is generally very distributed and of minimal consequence to everyone else.
I'm not fully aware how prevalent macro miners are (but you can't use this as an argument to dismiss everything I've said), but they can't be THAT bad. You report them, they get auto flagged through pattern detection of inputs, CCP investigates them. I believe a large number of "macro miners" are in fact players with a ton of alts. I have a ton of alts, I do large mining operations. I've been reported as a macro miner many times.
Manning a dozen mining accounts is not a crime. It's in fact a necessity if you want to make mining a viable income source, or are planning to do any large scale construction projects. Yes, macroers are out there, yes we see them, yes we report them. Yes they get banned in large numbers. They adapt and change their strategies. Implementing a system that will just harass tons of players is the wrong approach. Making mining more interactive/skill based or whatever is a better option than that. But then we're going to see a whole lot less minerals being mined up since it can't be multiboxed well. And multiboxers aren't what you're targeting (although people hate them almost as much).
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Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2010.04.05 01:54:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Mr Kidd
I don't understand why so many people care that others are macro mining. Seriously, who cares?
Are you seriously this stupid or are you just trolling?
If your concern is more about the imposition of your gaming morality on others (i.e. you either don't want or don't know how to do it so you don't want anyone else to do it either) then I'd have to say that's rather pathetic. If you're concern is about the economic impact, where's the data? I hear people say it's "bad" for the economy. Most people seem to think it's "bad" for the economy. But, other than what they learned about economics off the tele, is it? I don't believe it. Granted, I'm not tied into every facet of the economy but at the time of unholy rage I was trading in common high-sec ores that continued to depreciate weeks AFTER the expulsion of 6000+ macro'ers/rmt'ers. Considering that most macro miners are doing it in high-sec that means they're mining common ores. And yet noone seems to be able to address the phenomenon other than to say "macro miners are bad, *squawk*, macro miners are bad". Either CCP lied or macro miners don't impact the economy the way that is commonly believed.
If questioning a commonly perceived supposition makes me stupid then I guess that make you and your ilk "deciders"?
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Rico Lobo
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Posted - 2010.04.05 02:32:00 -
[56]
Originally by: True Sight
Originally by: Spii't Gelekk
I find it really annoying that we're hearing NOTHING from CCP about macro-miners and measures from CCP to counter them. It is game-breaking as it doesn't allow the market to work as it should (which will be even more important in the upcoming expansion). Why CAN CCP effectively shut down RMT traders, but not macro-mining?
Here's a few suggestions:
1. If a char is mining for more than 8 hours straight (should be easy to detect), logoffski. The few non macro-miners that mine that long wouldnt have problem with that. Make it random (between 4 - 12 hours f.i.), so that it can't be countered with other macro's, or timers.
It would take them 5 seconds to make a script to bypass that.
Originally by: Spii't Gelekk
2. Make some random manual periodic operation mandatory. I don't care what it is, make up some RP thing about drones or whatever that have special abilities to disturb mining and you only have to target them to stop them.
It would take them no time to make a script to interact with this, and also add an unpleasent mechanic to every single legitimate pilot.
Originally by: Spii't Gelekk
3. Do some uber secret code stuff that counters macros (and fyi everyone who knows google can find them within 5 minutes for free). We don't have to know what it is, but how hard can it be??
Yeah... its really THAT easy, could you do us a favour and start on that, just email it to CCP when you've finished, surely it can't be that hard!
According to the Everquest II developers someone created a macro to interact with the "Wackamole" crafting system during beta.
Blizard recently banned a person who multiboxed Arthas on 25 man hard.
Ironicaly anymore the RTM problem is probably not the macroers but the people who brute force attack the system with random loggin attempts to try to steal your account.
Honestly the best way you can deal with RTM is to bascialy (a) not do it yourself (b) make sure anyone you play with never engages in RTM and (c) if they insist on buying ISK for cash make dang sure they only do it Via Plex(and if they dont, feel free to kick there ass then report them to CCP)
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Cristopher Dante
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Posted - 2010.04.05 05:05:00 -
[57]
If all asteroid belts were removed from the overlay and required being probed down; would a macro be able to navigate that?
It takes what- less than a month to get into a proper probing ship? Doesn't seem like to high a price to pay.
Alternatively CCP could just block all Chinese IP addresses, as they have a cluster over there already. Not foolproof, but would slow them down by making them use a proxy anyways..
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rubico1337
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.04.05 06:20:00 -
[58]
the only thing to do is to train for a tempest
Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. |
Edenn
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.04.05 07:37:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Mr Kidd
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Mr Kidd
I don't understand why so many people care that others are macro mining. Seriously, who cares?
Are you seriously this stupid or are you just trolling?
If your concern is more about the imposition of your gaming morality on others (i.e. you either don't want or don't know how to do it so you don't want anyone else to do it either) then I'd have to say that's rather pathetic. If you're concern is about the economic impact, where's the data? I hear people say it's "bad" for the economy. Most people seem to think it's "bad" for the economy. But, other than what they learned about economics off the tele, is it? I don't believe it. Granted, I'm not tied into every facet of the economy but at the time of unholy rage I was trading in common high-sec ores that continued to depreciate weeks AFTER the expulsion of 6000+ macro'ers/rmt'ers. Considering that most macro miners are doing it in high-sec that means they're mining common ores. And yet noone seems to be able to address the phenomenon other than to say "macro miners are bad, *squawk*, macro miners are bad". Either CCP lied or macro miners don't impact the economy the way that is commonly believed.
If questioning a commonly perceived supposition makes me stupid then I guess that make you and your ilk "deciders"?
Wow Mister, I'm with you.
Was always wondering why many people bother about others and judge them.
I see no market impact too along with ISK sellers and other things.
OP is really have no idea how to do it or other way have to skills (trained ones) to mine.
It's sad many people around us just like OP.
123 |
Gavin Nordoff
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Posted - 2010.04.05 07:38:00 -
[60]
Don't know much about the RMT side but I have seen some blatantly obvious macro's used to fund older pvp players.
I have seen problems in how some are run/sometimes go wrong and have started looking into how their software is setup to see if there is anything we can do to trigger that fault without getting concorded.
Probably won't figure anything successful out but that's my mining sub game
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ghosttr
Amarr
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
Aeternus.
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Posted - 2010.04.05 08:04:00 -
[61]
Just make player decisions a more involved part of the mining process.
Take the roid names off the overview, just have them list as 'Asteroid' or 'Asteroid Unknown'. Then throw some worthless **** rocks in the belt, and have the roids show up as some generic material in the cargohold, and give them a generic image when targeted.
To make it easier for actual players give the roids more distinguished looks. This way it would be extremely difficult for a macro to know what its mining. And when you see someone sitting in a belt mining a 'barren asteroid' you report him for being a macro.
Support chat filters in eve |
Simeon Tor
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Posted - 2010.04.05 08:48:00 -
[62]
Originally by: ghosttr
And when you see someone sitting in a belt mining a 'barren asteroid' you report him for being a macro.
Better yet, program the barren asteroid to report the macro!
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Cridu Chat
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Posted - 2010.04.05 09:24:00 -
[63]
Maybe it would be possible to nerf Mining Lasers, but Buff Mininng Drones ?
I don't know that much about Macros, but i have never seen a Macro Miner with Mining Drones in High-Sec.
Maybe because you have to look after your Drones and protect them from rats.
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TechnoViking
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Posted - 2010.04.05 09:47:00 -
[64]
miner checking in here. Here to add my [2] tritaniums.
The verification code thing is a very small price to pay for the smiting of Eve's macro miners. It's a small inconvenience to miners that could possibly remove the largest inconvenience to them: macro miners. The whole "why punish the 'real' miners?" argument is really not very strong.
From my own standpoint, it appears as if CCP has no plans for dealing with macro miners. They know that 0.0 alliances don't produce enough ice products to fuel their POSes. They have to supplement their ice mining operations (if they even have them) with cheap macro-produced ice products from empire. Why do you think jump freighters were introduced? If all those NPC corp macks were gone, then all those 0.0 moon harvesters would go unfueled, T2 production would drop off rapidly, followed closely by CCP's subscription numbers, because the 1% of Eve that are involved in making ships (that aren't macros) can't support PvP ship buy orders for the other 99%.
Snip: giant 3000 character drunken rant deleted.
In closing: **** macro miners, and come Tyrannis, if macros are still around, then **** CCP, too. I'm sure I won't be missed, because human miners are a tiny minority in this game. My little emo gears will grind somewhere else.
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SunOfSin
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.04.05 10:18:00 -
[65]
kill ice miners macro-miners
all ice miners r macro miners
40 macs and 20 hulks and 4 orea mining ice i not big pvp butt see i 40 macs and 20 hulks in big ball i blow up
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Tippia
Reikoku
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.05 11:16:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Mr Kidd
If you're concern is about the economic impact, where's the data?
In the QEN:s and the fanfest Economy presentation(s).
Quote:
Granted, I'm not tied into every facet of the economy but at the time of unholy rage I was trading in common high-sec ores that continued to depreciate weeks AFTER the expulsion of 6000+ macro'ers/rmt'ers. Considering that most macro miners are doing it in high-sec that means they're mining common ores. And yet noone seems to be able to address the phenomenon other than to say "macro miners are bad, *squawk*, macro miners are bad". Either CCP lied or macro miners don't impact the economy the way that is commonly believed.
…or you haven't bothered to look up the data that has been published, including the one, and you've ignored the explanations already given in this thread.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2010.04.05 13:00:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Mr Kidd
If you're concern is about the economic impact, where's the data?
In the QEN:s and the fanfest Economy presentation(s).
Quote:
Granted, I'm not tied into every facet of the economy but at the time of unholy rage I was trading in common high-sec ores that continued to depreciate weeks AFTER the expulsion of 6000+ macro'ers/rmt'ers. Considering that most macro miners are doing it in high-sec that means they're mining common ores. And yet noone seems to be able to address the phenomenon other than to say "macro miners are bad, *squawk*, macro miners are bad". Either CCP lied or macro miners don't impact the economy the way that is commonly believed.
àor you haven't bothered to look up the data that has been published, including the one, and you've ignored the explanations already given in this thread.
"Including the one"? The one what? I've read the qen report for q3 2009. It seems more concerned with macro-missioners than it does with macro-miners. Oddly, it doesn't even provide "snap shots" of ore and mineral prices other than trit and several of it's snap shots would seem to indicate that market trends CCP attributes to macroers could just as easily be attributed to a greater overall trend. Not all, but some.
As for the ore and trit impact, CCP, itself, acknowledges that unholy rage had a small impact on trit prices. Its effects were Quote:
small and short lived
. Coincide that with what I've seen in ore prices during that time period, I'd have to say macro-miners are not much of a problem for anyone.
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Ick Ickagami
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Posted - 2010.04.05 13:06:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Simeon Tor
Originally by: ghosttr
And when you see someone sitting in a belt mining a 'barren asteroid' you report him for being a macro.
Better yet, program the barren asteroid to report the macro!
Even better yet, program the barren asteroid to explode, doing 50k omni damage directed at the 'attacking ship".
Oh, yes.....bombs in roids......some missions already have them, you know........
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Tippia
Reikoku
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.05 13:59:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Tippia on 05/04/2010 14:03:53
Originally by: Mr Kidd
"Including the one"? The one what?
Oops… cut the sentence short. Including the ones mentioned in this thread.
Quote:
As for the ore and trit impact, CCP, itself, acknowledges that unholy rage had a small impact on trit prices. Its effects were (quote)small and short lived(unquote). Coincide that with what I've seen in ore prices during that time period, I'd have to say macro-miners are not much of a problem for anyone.
…because they adjusted the spawn rates to counteract it. Quote:
Could it be that a more detailed analysis of ore and mineral trends would be counter intuitive to the overall "belief" that macro-miners are "bad"?
Could it be that you're afraid you'll lose all your macro income? See? Leading questions and insinuations based on not wanting to look up the facts are fun…
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.04.05 14:41:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Zartrader on 05/04/2010 14:50:57
One thing they could consider is changing the code used to give commands every month or so. This will not affect players at all but may require a rewrite of macro bots software. One of the things I found striking when I looked into this was the only issues the bot writers had was the standard of coding was low and caused the most problems.
Another thing I found striking was the excuses given to run bots. I suppose if someone tells themselves something enough times they will believe it, but the fact Bots adversely affect ALL of us is a reality which is well explained to anyone willing to listen. Why do people fool themselves into thinking otherwise? Anyone who cheats in a game I am part of affects me personally and I resent that. There is no such thing as solo play in a MMORPG. So damn right I will push my 'morality' on others.
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Forum Mcforum
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Posted - 2010.04.05 15:53:00 -
[71]
Right, I have been following peoples arguements about Macro mining for a long time now....and heres my opinion **** See note at end for disclaimer
I honestly feel that CCP have no possible solution to this, and i have my reasons - which i will try to explain here.
Over the last few months i have done some research into the macro mining market/applications - without actually running them (someone earler seemed to know a lot about them too - so he must have aswell)
1 of the macro's (which is free may i add) is a damn good product (i am a programmer and i am impressed that it has been programmed for no financial gain), This macro can read the screen and respond to what is on screen, it can mine in any ship with any config - and attack any threats......... HOW CAN CCP COMBAT THIS, simple - they cant its just not possible. Player A could undock - warp to belt mine, dock and sell as quickly as a person could do it, heres a list of possibilities.......
CCP implement a test style captcha, OCR would combat this........
CCP make a probe style belt finder, Player A would log in - find the belt and then start the macro with a BM
CCP implement a mini game, Realistically there is only going to be 1 (as opposed to multiple mini games), so this would be easy to manipulate
Lets Get realistic, your fighting a program that can mine in multiple systems, and ignore empty belts - Player A could set it up to mine 10 different systems, log in and log out automatically before and after DT - YOU CANNOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT THIS
Now..... heres the bad thing, There is one problem in my eyes which is much bigger than this. Ratting bots - there are fewer of these, and these dont effect the market as much,but the main one costs about 30 euro's and according to the website has over 1000 users, Now from a personal point as a programmer - if i had worked on a application that made me 30,000 euros in my spare time - i would do anything i could to keep it working, making that unstoppable too.
Now i know this may be a bit of a wall of text, but its certainly accurate - do some googling!
**** DISCLAIMER ****
I have never used a macro - or never intend to, so for the people who petition me etc - ccp bear this in mind
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Jerid Verges
Gallente
The Society of Innovation
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2010.04.05 16:01:00 -
[72]
Forum McForum is right. The Macros are just too capable. The only way CCP can hunt down these Macroers is through Unholy Rage style tactics.
And for people who say CCP is doing nothing. That is a load of BS. Remember Unholy Rage? That was doing something, they didn't have to do it, in fact, doing Unholy Rage lost them a LOT of subscribers, subscribers giving them money to Macro.
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Jerid Verges
Gallente
The Society of Innovation
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2010.04.05 16:24:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Jerid Verges on 05/04/2010 16:23:56
Oops. Double Post.
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Dek Kato
Amarr
Delusions of Mediocrity
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Posted - 2010.04.05 17:41:00 -
[74]
I think a lot of the ideas here are honestly terrible.
First off, the people who claim CCP do nothing are just whining because its impossible to clean up macros entirely. Welcome to MMOs, welcome to EVE.
But, more at the core of this issue is the fact that mining is MEANT to be passive. Were CCP to make it more intensive, it couldn't be AFKd/multiboxed. Therefor a ton of mining alts (a large portion of the mining community, a large source of revenue for CCP, and the primary moneymaker for a lot of PvPers) would disappear. This would then send ore prices through the roof. While a short-term good for miners, everything on the market would rise as well, meaning less goods being sold meaning less fun and PvP. EVE is a PvP game after all, therefor the market needs cheap minerals, which requires mining stay passive.
While I am all for the removal of macro's in whatever way CCP can enforce, I think mining needs to stay passive for the good of the economy.
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Sig Freed
Amarr
Imperial Navy Courier Service
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Posted - 2010.04.05 18:00:00 -
[75]
Anyone played the iphone app space miner?
I've mined only a handful of occassions over my time playing eve, can't stand it. That game on the other hand, is mining fun!
Maybe a built in mini-game that when played while mining, gives a slight boost to your mining skills
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B0XXY
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Posted - 2010.04.05 18:13:00 -
[76]
Originally by: SunOfSin
kill ice miners macro-miners
all ice miners r macro miners
40 macs and 20 hulks and 4 orea mining ice i not big pvp butt see i 40 macs and 20 hulks in big ball i blow up
Hello, my name is B0XXY..... mmmmmmm. You're trollin' and I don't like trolls. 
If you believe that all ice miners are macros then you are a very "stoopid" troll.
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Humble Epidemic
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.04.05 19:03:00 -
[77]
I definatly agree that macro miners are a serious problem in eve, but im not sure that there are any practical ways to weed them out, shot of what CCP is doing/done in the past.
And i will totally agree mining in general needs a serious overhaul.
Roid rage is a problem mmkay.
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Arklan1
Wolfhaven Productions
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Posted - 2010.04.05 20:15:00 -
[78]
you guys played mass effect 2? the mining side game in that wasn't incredibly fun, but it was far from passive. basically would fly to a roid (planet in the case of ME2) and begin scanning, looking for resource spikes in the scan results, then launch probes to verify, then the ore is hauled in. requires much more active participation, but of course a good macro program with OCR (whats that stand for anyway?) that can read the screen would still be able to do it... but... ok, so i've totally lost my train of thought.
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Redshirt I
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:00:00 -
[79]
Fighting macroers is like the whole missle/missle defense loop countries could get into. Better macros get created, CCP builds better defenses then even better macros get created, it would become an endless loop.
Everytime a miner posts about how important their services are to the game, there are 20 people pointing out how little to the game market they really matter, always saying how mission running is much more effective on the game markets. If this is true then macro miners just dont matter.
I progressed from mining to missions and I can see how running missions, with a well built ship makes for more isk/hour. Since Isk sellers are looking for the best ratio of isk/hour I have to assume they are not dumb and are also moving to mission running. The difference is that you can't see the mission runners as well as you can the macro miners, miners are always visible in their belts.
The changes to the Insurance thing and the upcoming planet interaction should hopefully throw the RMT guys off their game. I say this knowing full well that they will always be around.
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Tippia
Reikoku
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.05 21:04:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Arklan1
you guys played mass effect 2?
You should probably edit your post a bit before the thread gets locked for mentioning something that isn't EVE.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
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Posted - 2010.04.06 00:01:00 -
[81]
Perhaps use a user-query system, much like you see on forums logins to prevent bots from joining/spamming forums? Just a simple random graphic with several numbers/letters that only a human would be able to recognize and respond to?
Have it triggered after x random amount of ore has been mined, or to activate certain modules. A minor pain in the butt for real miners, but would stop any macro software dead in it's tracks.
Another solution, turn mining into more of a 'mini game' with graphic cues that need to be responded to by a human in order to mine. Some sort of random interaction that would be different on each occasion.
Silas Vitalia
CEO Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Open for Recruitment!
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Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2010.04.06 00:56:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 05/04/2010 14:03:53
Originally by: Mr Kidd
"Including the one"? The one what?
Oopsà cut the sentence short. Including the ones mentioned in this thread.
Quote:
As for the ore and trit impact, CCP, itself, acknowledges that unholy rage had a small impact on trit prices. Its effects were (quote)small and short lived(unquote). Coincide that with what I've seen in ore prices during that time period, I'd have to say macro-miners are not much of a problem for anyone.
àbecause they adjusted the spawn rates to counteract it. Quote:
Could it be that a more detailed analysis of ore and mineral trends would be counter intuitive to the overall "belief" that macro-miners are "bad"?
Could it be that you're afraid you'll lose all your macro income? See? Leading questions and insinuations based on not wanting to look up the facts are funà
Sweetheart, I don't macro. You're assumption that I defend macroing because I do it is wrong on two parts. First, I'm not defending it. The only thing I'm bringing to light is the general misconception that it's "bad". The typical response when someone is asked why it is "bad" is the regurgitated response "it's bad for the economy" followed by "it depresses ore and mineral prices". Yes, it is a logic conclusion, just not based on anything other than logic. If macro mining did depress mineral and ore prices then why does CCP indicate that ores and mineral price influences are small? And why did ore and mineral price deflate before unholy rage and continue to deflate after unholy rage? There's one thing I can't stand, uninformed know it alls that repeat and regurgitate common dogma as if they know a thing. Second you're wrong that I macro. I don't do anything in this game that can be macro'ed. I spend my days probing systems.
Do elaborate on your "adjusted the spawn rates" comment. I've no idea what you're talking about.
As for the comments about economic impact in this thread? It's been nothing but rhetoric.
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.04.06 01:34:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Zartrader on 06/04/2010 01:35:45
Originally by: Mr Kidd
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 05/04/2010 14:03:53
Originally by: Mr Kidd
"Including the one"? The one what?
Oopsà cut the sentence short. Including the ones mentioned in this thread.
Quote:
As for the ore and trit impact, CCP, itself, acknowledges that unholy rage had a small impact on trit prices. Its effects were (quote)small and short lived(unquote). Coincide that with what I've seen in ore prices during that time period, I'd have to say macro-miners are not much of a problem for anyone.
àbecause they adjusted the spawn rates to counteract it. Quote:
Could it be that a more detailed analysis of ore and mineral trends would be counter intuitive to the overall "belief" that macro-miners are "bad"?
Could it be that you're afraid you'll lose all your macro income? See? Leading questions and insinuations based on not wanting to look up the facts are funà
Sweetheart, I don't macro. You're assumption that I defend macroing because I do it is wrong on two parts. First, I'm not defending it. The only thing I'm bringing to light is the general misconception that it's "bad". The typical response when someone is asked why it is "bad" is the regurgitated response "it's bad for the economy" followed by "it depresses ore and mineral prices". Yes, it is a logic conclusion, just not based on anything other than logic. If macro mining did depress mineral and ore prices then why does CCP indicate that ores and mineral price influences are small? And why did ore and mineral price deflate before unholy rage and continue to deflate after unholy rage? There's one thing I can't stand, uninformed know it alls that repeat and regurgitate common dogma as if they know a thing. Second you're wrong that I macro. I don't do anything in this game that can be macro'ed. I spend my days probing systems.
Do elaborate on your "adjusted the spawn rates" comment. I've no idea what you're talking about.
As for the comments about economic impact in this thread? It's been nothing but rhetoric.
CCP substantially increased the spawn rate of 'roids to compensate for the mass bans (doubled apparently). That's how much CCP took the economic impact seriously, they knew it would have an effect but overcompensated. For some reason you are ignoring the effect of that or maybe you were simply not aware of it.
Any game that has an element of botting will have a false economy, that is well documented in many games, some of which collapsed as a result. I would agree we do not know the full extent of the effect in EVE, even CCP can only guess, but the effect is there all the same. To ignore that leads to the wrong conclusions about what is happening in the game. One thing I find perverse was the fact that CCP will nerf and adjust drone drops as well as mission drops to try and compensate for the Insurance nerf. The amount they will have to adjust will be affected by the Bots. They hurt all of us in this game directly or indirectly.
You then seem to assume all bots are simply lazy players and otherwise harmless. Well, botting leads to RMT, account theft, crime, fraud and effects that seriously impact players in REAL life, not just the game. They impact genuine players by pushing them out of regions and affecting the price of everything we buy and sell. If you've ever heard someone cry on vent when they have lost everything you may change your attitude a bit. When friends have given up a game they enjoyed as they were hacked and they feel ****d.
The most unpopular thing to say is also the fact they are cheats. Many of us have some integrity no matter how we play EVE. I would rather throw my character away than cheat as playing would have no meaning to me, my character no value as it needed to cheat to get where it was. I don't like being in the same game as cheats.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2010.04.06 03:47:00 -
[84]
I started a thread to discuss mining improvements and the elimination of macro miners HERE.
Now, I don't think that macros will be able to be removed from the game, but I do think that the game design can be changed in such a way as to make them irrelevant. Just simply change the game design to where the human brain is a more efficient tool for making ISK with mining than a macro program and presto, problem solved.
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Originally by: Bellum Eternus
That is the beauty of Eve, it's a crucible in which great minds are formed and the rest are ground to dust.
Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
Tippia
Reikoku
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.06 04:04:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Mr Kidd
Sweetheart, I don't macro. You're assumption that I defend macroing because I do it is wrong on two parts.
It's not wrong for the simple reason that it's not an assumption – it's a demonstration of why rhetorical questions and insinuations are useless (and often ultimately only show that you haven't bothered to look things up).
Quote:
The only thing I'm bringing to light is the general misconception that it's "bad".
How is it a misconception? There is data that shows that it's bad, but you refuse to accept this.
Quote:
Yes, it is a logic conclusion, just not based on anything other than logic.
…and market data and studies made by CCP, that you refuse to accept.
Quote:
If macro mining did depress mineral and ore prices then why does CCP indicate that ores and mineral price influences are small? And why did ore and mineral price deflate before unholy rage and continue to deflate after unholy rage?
BECAUSE THEY CHANGED THE SPAWN RATES!
Quote:
There's one thing I can't stand, uninformed know it alls that repeat and regurgitate common dogma as if they know a thing.
Sure, apparently you prefer uninformed know-it-alls that repeat something they've dreamed up themselves.
Quote:
Second you're wrong that I macro.
Incorrect.
Quote:
Do elaborate on your "adjusted the spawn rates" comment. I've no idea what you're talking about.
Then be quiet until you've actually looked into the information available to us and stop claiming that nothing is known about what's going on.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Boomershoot
Caldari
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.04.06 06:27:00 -
[86]
OK, I think (and you should, too) That this thread has expired.
Up to this point, i've seen no reason for this thread to even exist in the first place.
Now, let's clear out the points most people seem to miss:
It is NOT, i repeat, IT IS NOT Your job to "Punish" or hinder in any way macro-users. If you want to, however, No one is stopping you. Launching Antimacro Crusades outside of the game mechanics (or outside the game, even) is NOT the way to deal with macro users. That is CCP's Job.
What you do is effectively report suspect users for CCP to review and handle the way they want to.
You have no power over this last process and there is no logical reason for anyone outside of CCP hf. to have.
want to discuss it? feel free. want to throw **** at eachother in the same thread? go on.
But PLEASE for the love of god STOP THINKING ANY THREAD OF THIS KIND HAS ANY EFFECT ON CCP'S POLICIES.
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Venetta
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.04.06 09:50:00 -
[87]
Don't target the macro miners. Pointless. Where money is involved you will never stop people from finding a way to work around safeguards. The best thing is to remove their target market from the equation. No demand, no reason to supply. To this effect I think CCP are trying to combat the problem.
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Armoured C
Gallente
Globaltech Industries
The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2010.04.06 11:06:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Armoured C on 06/04/2010 11:08:19
Originally by: Boomershoot
OK, I think (and you should, too) That this thread has expired.
Up to this point, i've seen no reason for this thread to even exist in the first place.
Now, let's clear out the points most people seem to miss:
It is NOT, i repeat, IT IS NOT Your job to "Punish" or hinder in any way macro-users. If you want to, however, No one is stopping you. Launching Antimacro Crusades outside of the game mechanics (or outside the game, even) is NOT the way to deal with macro users. That is CCP's Job.
What you do is effectively report suspect users for CCP to review and handle the way they want to.
You have no power over this last process and there is no logical reason for anyone outside of CCP hf. to have.
want to discuss it? feel free. want to throw **** at eachother in the same thread? go on.
But PLEASE for the love of god STOP THINKING ANY THREAD OF THIS KIND HAS ANY EFFECT ON CCP'S POLICIES.
im sorry this is eve
anyone can be punished for anything
the only thing we can't do is ban them ourselves
but we can punish them
ever heard of smart bombs OR stealing there ores from there can
any noob with half a tank can tank the stupid cruiser that the marco person bring out when he realises that your stealing his profits
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Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2010.04.06 14:03:00 -
[89]
Tippia,
You're right, I haven't bothered to look things up only because I don't "live" Eve and therefore am not aware of the intimate workings of CCP, i.e. The QEN report. If made aware of such a thing, then do I look it up as I did the QEN report. But, do not begrudge me for questioning what is the prevailing "wisdom", if it can be called that.
Questioning whether macro-mining is "bad" is exactly that I'm doing here. And yes, it does appear to be a misconception. You may be confusing this point. CCP indicated in the QEN report that macro-missioning involving RMT is the detriment here. CCP admits that the numbers of macro-miners removed from the game had a small and short lived effect on overall mineral prices. And yet CCP increased the roid spawn raid as Zartrader pointed out (thank you). In simple economic theory, increasing the roid spawn rate, may increase the supply of ore and minerals, decreasing the price in the face of a constant demand, but wait. CCP also removed a certain amount of demand for ore and minerals by removing a large number of accounts further depressing demand and therefore prices. Why are macro-miners bad?
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Ackemi
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Posted - 2010.04.06 14:36:00 -
[90]
Let's face it, in a sandbox game some people aren't going to play nice and throw sand out of the box as fast as they can.
CCP has limited options on how to handle macro miners (and any other macros) without removing the "sandbox" feel to the game.
For macro miners I think CCP should continue changing the mechanics (spawn rate and mining yield for low ends) until Hisec ores aren't worth anything. The macro miners are pushing that direction anyhow, let's just cement the relationship now...
Insurance for T1 ships probably needs to change to accomodate this plan. Hmm, maybe CCP has thought of this already?
Make it so the gap between a new players isk needs and a veterans isk desires for "shineys" forces the mining profession into null space as a miner progresses in their profession. Seems like CCP is already trying to accommodate this play!
I don't think macros in low and null sec will be quite the complaint for everyone in the sand- just go shoot them!
Kills the mining profession in Hisec? Yes- DEAL WITH IT! There's no sand left to play with and the participants did it to themselves. Besides, mining in low and null provides this minigame everyone wants for mining -> PvP!
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Captain Futur3
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Posted - 2010.04.06 15:27:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Captain Futur3 on 06/04/2010 15:38:06
I dont know if this is already the case, but why not simply ban macro miners when they are obvious (and a lot of them ARE, even me as a non miner can see a lot of them). Losing an account that can fly a hulk hurts, and you have about 2 months or more until they have a new acc that far.
Sure, this needs CCP to interact, but i guess when other macroers see that CCP kicks their ass, some will stop creating new accounts.
Something wrong with that?
edit: there is a very easy way to detect macroers as a GM. Simply put them in private chat and if you see that they dont respond while they go on mining, its clearly a macrominer (sure you need to talk more than just "Hi, are you there"). First, they got a 2 day ban. When they macro twice, they will get banned for a week and then their account will get deleted. For me thats the only solution that really would help without penalizing other minders.
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.04.06 15:58:00 -
[92]
It seems to me that many of the ways to combat macro's would inconvenience legitimate multi-boxing players, but to me arbitrary rules are parts of many games. Things like tripping are banned in otherwise full contact sports because of their large potential for player injuries which weakens the game as a whole.
My best ideas would be some tweaks that made smaller mining vessles more profitble to use efficiently against certain types of asteroids (like T1- frigs allow low sp players to play a pvp role ) The isk ore per hour would still rightly be significantly less than a barge or hulk in larger fields but the distribution of roids could leave room for a wider source of supply.
The easiest way I can think of would be to have long warm up times on larger mining equipment (five minutes or maybe more) and have ghost ships that look like player' on the overview warping through systems and jumpint to belts to continually sirupt macro's mining. You could havin a turing test of the text in the bio's that could alow a real player to distiguish whether they're likely fakes or not, and of course real players could put simliar in bios to make things spicey.
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