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seriously CCP, do something about macro-miners

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Spii't Gelekk	Posted - 2010.04.03 11:53:00 - [1] I find it really annoying that we're hearing NOTHING from CCP about macro-miners and measures from CCP to counter them. It is game-breaking as it doesn't allow the market to work as it should (which will be even more important in the upcoming expansion). Why CAN CCP effectively shut down RMT traders, but not macro-mining? Here's a few suggestions: 1. If a char is mining for more than 8 hours straight (should be easy to detect), logoffski. The few non macro-miners that mine that long wouldnt have problem with that. Make it random (between 4 - 12 hours f.i.), so that it can't be countered with other macro's, or timers. 2. Make some random manual periodic operation mandatory. I don't care what it is, make up some RP thing about drones or whatever that have special abilities to disturb mining and you only have to target them to stop them. 3. Do some uber secret code stuff that counters macros (and fyi everyone who knows google can find them within 5 minutes for free). We don't have to know what it is, but how hard can it be??
Aera Aiana	Posted - 2010.04.03 12:11:00 - [2] The only reasonable thing to do about it is a serious mining overhaul - make mining interactive on a gameplay level. I think some miners might be offended by the nagscreens you're suggesting as it would imply that mining has a subzero priority for CCP.
Niara Takeva	Posted - 2010.04.03 12:24:00 - [3] If its so easy to pogramm for you, then this is the way to go for you http://www.ccpgames.com/en/jobs.aspx

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2010.04.03 12:29:00 - [4] Edited by: Chribba on 03/04/2010 12:29:35 My guess is that they work like they have in the past (Un/Holy Rage) to map and watch the miners to strike down big time on them taking out their ISK selling alts and whatever at the same time. /c Secure 3rd party service \| my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2010.04.03 12:41:00 - [5] You won't get rid of ISK sellers as long as people are willing to buy those iSK. But if you kill the demand you will kill the macros/farmers. CCP seems to track the ISK sellers and punish those buying ISK, while providing a CCP sanctioned method of ISK buying through GTCs. And then, from time to time, they do the unholy rage thing.
Brainless Bimbo Pator Tech School	Posted - 2010.04.03 12:43:00 - [6] IF you find a macro petition it with why you think they are, they do get acted on.... maybe even get some friends and gang thier hulk/whatever, thats fun as there is nothing funnier than a pod running a mining macro imo. I can¦t work out if ur a miner that is out competed by better skilled and experienced players, a cretin who lives in a high density area of high sec where roids suck, or just plain emo ranter wanting attention. ...... continues overleaf.
Aliraxi Gallente Cow Boys From HeII High Treason Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.03 13:03:00 - [7] You can't add interactive games! Chribba wouldn't be able to efficiently use his Veld-quadruplets And we all know Chribba is really CCP in disguise
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.04.03 13:23:00 - [8] Originally by: Aera Aiana The only reasonable thing to do about it is a serious mining overhaul - make mining interactive on a gameplay level. This. Mining will always be a terrible income unless ore becomes scarce or mining it takes actual skill. If you want to boost mining income, make mining difficult and dangerous.
Jerid Verges Gallente The Society of Innovation The Last Stand	Posted - 2010.04.03 13:29:00 - [9] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Aera Aiana The only reasonable thing to do about it is a serious mining overhaul - make mining interactive on a gameplay level. This. Mining will always be a terrible income unless ore becomes scarce or mining it takes actual skill. If you want to boost mining income, make mining difficult and dangerous. You mean like Missions?
Kallieah	Posted - 2010.04.03 13:31:00 - [10] Originally by: Spii't Gelekk 1. If a char is mining for more than 8 hours straight (should be easy to detect), logoffski. The few non macro-miners that mine that long wouldnt have problem with that. Make it random (between 4 - 12 hours f.i.), so that it can't be countered with other macro's, or timers. They already do that through a clever combination of socket closures and lag disconnections.
Capt Fossil Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.03 13:50:00 - [11] In before the "There aren't that many Macro Miners, prove it to me" usual suspects. This is a huge problem, and has a much bigger effect on the price of minerals than all of CCP's latest "solutions" will change. Now combine the upcoming Insurance changes and mineral re-balancing with some serious warfare on Macro-Miners and we might see some real improvements.
Kephael Caldari SERENDIPITY INC R-I-P	Posted - 2010.04.03 14:00:00 - [12] A bigger issue is the macro ratters that some alliances protect. __________________________________________
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.04.03 14:21:00 - [13] Originally by: Jerid Verges Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Aera Aiana The only reasonable thing to do about it is a serious mining overhaul - make mining interactive on a gameplay level. This. Mining will always be a terrible income unless ore becomes scarce or mining it takes actual skill. If you want to boost mining income, make mining difficult and dangerous. You mean like Missions? That... is a seperate issue.
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.04.03 14:38:00 - [14] Edited by: Zartrader on 03/04/2010 14:43:44 Well, I'm always suspicious of what is going on in the game unfortunately. Why did it take CCP so long to find out about that Alchemy exploit and deal with it? There seems to be two rules: 1. If you macro and keep your head down you're safe. 2. Macro miners are only dealt with when they get beyond a certain critical mass. There are several ways to deal with them with a bit of willpower and imagination. You do not have to stop it, just make it not worthwhile, that's a lot easier to do. But like it took forever to implement a basic spam reporting function (with all the lame excuses from some players saying it won't work despite good evidence from other games that they do) there seems to be a deep resistance to any changes. In fact it seems there is a lot of the player base who is happy as it is and they bring up any random objection they can to stop anything changing. What's wrong with you guys? You like it as it is? Until CCP deals with this past banning a few times I will remain cynical.
Yuda Mann	Posted - 2010.04.03 14:44:00 - [15] Before you create another stupid emo tears thread about macro miners you really should at least make a tiny attempt at understanding the macro software they use. There's two types of macros. One is the basic keyboard/mouse macro that you record movements with and play back. The other is far more sophisticated. The really nice macro programs have OCR and can read the screen. A macroer using these will fly their hulk fleets slowly across an asteroid field only mining all the 5% and 10% ore. They can identify rats as they warp in and release drones and kill them. They know exactly which station to fly to and dump ore at even if the order on the overview changes. When you figure out how to stop a macro program that can READ then please let CCP know because until then all you can do is spend your days suiciding or wardecing them. No excuse for not knowing all this either. OCR macro programs have been around for at least 2 years if not more.
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.04.03 14:50:00 - [16] Edited by: Zartrader on 03/04/2010 14:54:22 Originally by: Yuda Mann Before you create another stupid emo tears thread about macro miners you really should at least make a tiny attempt at understanding the macro software they use. There's two types of macros. One is the basic keyboard/mouse macro that you record movements with and play back. The other is far more sophisticated. The really nice macro programs have OCR and can read the screen. A macroer using these will fly their hulk fleets slowly across an asteroid field only mining all the 5% and 10% ore. They can identify rats as they warp in and release drones and kill them. They know exactly which station to fly to and dump ore at even if the order on the overview changes. When you figure out how to stop a macro program that can READ then please let CCP know because until then all you can do is spend your days suiciding or wardecing them. No excuse for not knowing all this either. OCR macro programs have been around for at least 2 years if not more. So we give up and do NOTHING about it? There is not one game mechanic ingame to even attempt to reduce the impact of this. Putting your hands up and admitting defeat before even trying will not solve anything. There are several solutions they can try, some will impact miners (captcha being the most obvious) and some won't (gameguard)
Silvensis Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.04.03 14:52:00 - [17] Originally by: Aera Aiana The only reasonable thing to do about it is a serious mining overhaul - make mining interactive on a gameplay level. I think some miners might be offended by the nagscreens you're suggesting as it would imply that mining has a subzero priority for CCP. I've long thought that mining could be made into a less obvious time sink by making it something you actually have to do, rather than just watch. I can't think of a downside to this - except that it'll make it harder to automate, which I imagine would be a downside for macroers. But for me, as an actual player, I'd love it. Make it skill-based - in the sense of the player's skill at it, with results modified by the character's skills - and as far as I'm concerned you're onto a winner. I see no reason why there needs to be any automation in mining at all. Personally, I pay to play the game, not watch it play itself.
Capt Fossil Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.03 15:02:00 - [18] Originally by: Yuda Mann Before you create another stupid emo tears thread .... Almost stopped reading right there. Glad I didn't though. Quote: about macro miners you really should at least make a tiny attempt at understanding the macro software they use. I had heard of the OCR software, wasn't aware of how sophisticated it is. Macro Miners are online for many hours on end, lots of them 23/7. When you see one guy, who is 2 months old, who is selling you at least 20M trit, 10M Pyerite and 5M Mexallon everyday since he was born, I think he may be involved in a macro op. Oh, and he is in an NPC corp of course. If I was a miner, I would report them all. Heck I don't even mine and have reported some, with less than satisfactory results. My point is, all these insurance and mineral re-adjustments will only cause the price of all the low end minerals to tumble even lower, UNLESS the macro's are run off.
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.04.03 15:04:00 - [19] Originally by: Silvensis Originally by: Aera Aiana The only reasonable thing to do about it is a serious mining overhaul - make mining interactive on a gameplay level. I think some miners might be offended by the nagscreens you're suggesting as it would imply that mining has a subzero priority for CCP. I've long thought that mining could be made into a less obvious time sink by making it something you actually have to do, rather than just watch. I can't think of a downside to this - except that it'll make it harder to automate, which I imagine would be a downside for macroers. But for me, as an actual player, I'd love it. Make it skill-based - in the sense of the player's skill at it, with results modified by the character's skills - and as far as I'm concerned you're onto a winner. I see no reason why there needs to be any automation in mining at all. Personally, I pay to play the game, not watch it play itself. I agree with this. I did a bit of my own research recently and ironically the only thing that caused macro writers any issues was the inconsistent and clunky way CCP had written some of their code
Boomershoot Caldari Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2010.04.03 15:26:00 - [20] You don't want CCP to kill macroing. They would use methods that would completely kill the game itself. Trust me, just keep reporting when you see em.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.03 15:29:00 - [21] Originally by: Jerid Verges Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Aera Aiana The only reasonable thing to do about it is a serious mining overhaul - make mining interactive on a gameplay level. This. Mining will always be a terrible income unless ore becomes scarce or mining it takes actual skill. If you want to boost mining income, make mining difficult and dangerous. You mean like Missions? This. This is clearly a signature.
Atticus Fynch	Posted - 2010.04.03 15:58:00 - [22] Answer: Mining License Treat mining like missions. You need to check in with a mining agent at the system you wish to mine at, purchase a mining license for a small fee. The license could be based on time, say 2hrs, or the license could be based on mining load. Whichever works best for CCP. Now that would make mining without a license illegal, and subject to concord interaction. With some clever coding, this could work and end the macro mining.
True Sight THORN Syndicate Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2010.04.03 16:13:00 - [23] Originally by: Spii't Gelekk I find it really annoying that we're hearing NOTHING from CCP about macro-miners and measures from CCP to counter them. It is game-breaking as it doesn't allow the market to work as it should (which will be even more important in the upcoming expansion). Why CAN CCP effectively shut down RMT traders, but not macro-mining? Here's a few suggestions: 1. If a char is mining for more than 8 hours straight (should be easy to detect), logoffski. The few non macro-miners that mine that long wouldnt have problem with that. Make it random (between 4 - 12 hours f.i.), so that it can't be countered with other macro's, or timers. It would take them 5 seconds to make a script to bypass that. Originally by: Spii't Gelekk 2. Make some random manual periodic operation mandatory. I don't care what it is, make up some RP thing about drones or whatever that have special abilities to disturb mining and you only have to target them to stop them. It would take them no time to make a script to interact with this, and also add an unpleasent mechanic to every single legitimate pilot. Originally by: Spii't Gelekk 3. Do some uber secret code stuff that counters macros (and fyi everyone who knows google can find them within 5 minutes for free). We don't have to know what it is, but how hard can it be?? Yeah... its really THAT easy, could you do us a favour and start on that, just email it to CCP when you've finished, surely it can't be that hard! -------------------------------------- True Sight President Foiritan Emissary --<<!SUPPORT DRONES!>>--
RootEmerger	Posted - 2010.04.03 16:19:00 - [24] Originally by: Zartrader So we give up and do NOTHING about it? There is not one game mechanic ingame to even attempt to reduce the impact of this. Putting your hands up and admitting defeat before even trying will not solve anything. There are several solutions they can try, some will impact miners (captcha being the most obvious) and some won't (gameguard) Giving up its not the problem, accusing ccp of doing nothing when all the "easy solutions" given in this thread would only make the life miserable for real miners and pose no problems to macroers is another matter. CCP -is- working hard to fix the problem, they just dont have any magic wand to handwave the macroers away magically, as you seem to wish... As for "Gameguard"... lol, do you really want a rotkit that do wathever it want with your computer, make your life miserable with all his bugs and problems, make your machine vulnerable to all the malwares that link to the gameguard-rotkit to be invisible from antiviruses AND DONT STOP ANY MACROERS? try asking to any players of gameguard-"enhanced" games if theres botters/macroers in their mmog... As for making mining interactive and... -FUN-... yeah, I'm all for it :)
Spii't Gelekk	Posted - 2010.04.03 16:48:00 - [25] Edited by: Spii''t Gelekk on 03/04/2010 16:54:49 Edited by: Spii''t Gelekk on 03/04/2010 16:48:44 First off, we've kept it quite civil! no flames and whatever, wow :) Second, mining is advertised as a valid career which new players start out in (really you can miss it, it almost looks like EVE is ONLY about industry, anyway..) By only marginally dealing with the issue CCP are also INSULTING new players by not giving them what they deserve in terms of income and, more importantaly, respect by dealing with the issue. Ofcourse some players report, we don't even know if CCP really acts on these petitions consequentially. And is it the players responsability in the first place to 'solve' this problem? I'm not a miner myself, but i heard several times from large producers that they are 100% POSITIVE that AT LEAST 50% of their materials are bought from macro-miners. I could go on, but i think it's CCP responsabilty to at least give out some statement that they acknowledge the importance of this issue. edit, with this post i think i make it clear i'm even more angry about the fact that CCP is not even acknowledging the problem. Solving it would be step 2. I DO really think it is easy, nobody mines for 10+ hours straight. Looking at this kind of behaviour would seem very logical place to start. And the issue of creating a 'nuisance' for miners. What is worse, making the stuff you do basically a waste of time, or clicking on something once in while. If you explain this to them, i am SURE these guys would totally understand.
Boomershoot Caldari Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2010.04.03 16:54:00 - [26] Originally by: Spii't Gelekk we don't even know if CCP really acts on these petitions consequentially. And that's none of your buisness, really. IF CCP asks you for something that's another matter entirely. Else, we should all shut our mouth about it and just keep silently reporting. Like i kept doing for almost 3 years consecutively.
Zirse Minmatar Integrated Astromechanics Corp.	Posted - 2010.04.03 16:56:00 - [27] Move all the veldspar to low-sec to be taken advantage of organized mining fleets, not the afk ******s. To give solo miners an actual chance in hell, create a new 'covert' mining barge that utilizes certain alloys to make the ship not show up on the directional scan. Still shows up to probes and of course visually, so it won't be able to protect the afk-tards.
Taxesarebad	Posted - 2010.04.03 16:57:00 - [28] CCP tracks them and doesnt instaban then like other MMO's. they see who they are giving thier isk too. what they are BUYING as well. macro miners are just as bad as macro mission runners. there was a blog post about how the banned a bunch of macroers and watched how the markets changed. they also unbaned them for a while and watched prices drop as there was a mass sell off of those characters.
Vonlutt Amarr	Posted - 2010.04.03 17:09:00 - [29] Don't forget about the ratter macros. !
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.03 17:58:00 - [30] Quote: I DO really think it is easy, nobody mines for 10+ hours straight. Lol. The price of ore is down, so if you used to have to mine for 6.5 hours you now have to mine for 10. Lots of people log in for 10 hours straight, and I would love to see the outrage if people got booted from the game in their 10th hour of ratting, missioning, wormholing, or PvPing. This is clearly a signature.

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