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GreenpeaceHippie	Posted - 2010.04.06 04:41:00 - [1] Me and a friend were discusssing mission running ships the other night (for level 4s) and we started talking about why almost everyone uses ravens for running level 4 missions. The problem is, we couldn't really come up with a reason why a Raven vs a lot of other battleships. The ones that came up with are a Railgun Rohk, a Maelstrom, and an Apoc. I personally run a Raven, however I couldn't for the life of me see one area where this ship was simply better than the others listed. A Maelstrom would do far more damage, with an afterburner could dictate range, and have just as much of a tank. So why don't more people fly them? Same goes for the other ships. An apoc with scortch pulses could do the same. So why do more people fly ravens? Is it because there are more Caldari pilots? is it that the Golem is a superior marauder and therefore the raven is just a stepping stone? or is it something else I'm missing?
King Rothgar Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.04.06 04:50:00 - [2] Sounds like you are in caldari space. Go to amarr space and you'll see an endless line of abaddons/paladins undocking from the mission hubs. There is nothing special about the raven for mission running. It is more popular than the rokh but I think that's because of the drake. People skill up for the drake to run lvl3's with and by the time they can do 4's, they are pretty much hooked on missile skills and so continue on with the raven. Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig.
Loamx	Posted - 2010.04.06 04:58:00 - [3] There are a few reasons honestly. To begin, the raven is a missle boat. With missles you can choose your damage type for the varying missions. The rokh cannot. Also, rail guns have tracking issues, and use some cap, missles do not. If a frigate gets with in orbit range, good luck hitting it with a rail gun. Missle will hit it, albeit for less, but it will eventually die. (we're assuming drones aren't available here.) This is also one reason why people consider the gallente maurder to be extremely sub par (as far as I understand from the complaints.)
GreenpeaceHippie	Posted - 2010.04.06 05:10:00 - [4] Edited by: GreenpeaceHippie on 06/04/2010 05:11:54 Actually we are both based in minmatar space and i still see more ravens than anything tbqh. In the case of the frigates/cruisers, with an ab you burn away and shoot as you go. Using an afterburner, a battleship can at least maintain distance on most rats, (even against angels) and one shot will kill most of them. In the case of missiles your at a disadvantage due to speed and sig radius as well. Again I fly a raven for missions, but he did make me wonder. (TBQH i can fly every battleship and fit it with t2 minus guns). And as for the damage type selection, isnt that offset by the fact most battleships can do more dps than a cruise raven?
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.06 05:14:00 - [5] Originally by: GreenpeaceHippie And as for the damage type selection, isnt that offset by the fact most battleships can do more dps than a cruise raven? No. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
GreenpeaceHippie	Posted - 2010.04.06 05:33:00 - [6] Edited by: GreenpeaceHippie on 06/04/2010 05:35:11 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: GreenpeaceHippie And as for the damage type selection, isnt that offset by the fact most battleships can do more dps than a cruise raven? No. -Liang Care to explain? especially considering that cruise missiles don't do full dps against even a battleship without other things helping (target painters, webs)? The best differences I've seen in resists are 30%. Even with that accounted for it seems like less DPS than the others. And even in that instance wouldn't the Maelstrom do better with higher dps and still selectable types?
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.06 06:15:00 - [7] Cruise missiles do easily max dps against BS. You are confusing them with torps. Missiles are easy, not affected by tracking disruptors, full damage selection, good dps (also because shield tank > armor tank for missions), no range issues. Amarr BS got good raw dps, but lack the damage type selection. Minmatar AC boats are now also good for missions, but that is a fairly recent change.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.06 06:29:00 - [8] Originally by: GreenpeaceHippie Care to explain? especially considering that cruise missiles don't do full dps against even a battleship without other things helping (target painters, webs)? The best differences I've seen in resists are 30%. Even with that accounted for it seems like less DPS than the others. And even in that instance wouldn't the Maelstrom do better with higher dps and still selectable types? Comments: - Cruise missiles do not have trouble dealing full damage with 3 rigors and a painter. - A 30% resist difference is more than it sounds like. For instance, 572/(1-.3) = 817 DPS - A properly set up Raven deals 572 DPS (no implants) with full damage type selection at any range. This neglects Fury which can sometimes be used (especially against battleships). - A properly set up Maelstrom deals 930 DPS with 75% damage type selection at 5km. By 55km you're dealing 372 DPS with damage type selection and maybe 600 with Barrage (and no damage type selection). - A properly set up Rail Rokh deals 595 DPS at 54km with no damage type selection. As you can see, ultimately it comes down to the fact that you deal pretty much full damage with cruise, have full damage type selection, and don't have to worry about tracking. You can go anywhere, and do any mission... all with the same ship. The Raven family is an extremely solid choice for missioning. Disclaimer: The numbers are approximate. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
d3vo	Posted - 2010.04.06 06:37:00 - [9] Oh no you le didn't...just say Apoc. nom nom nom
Telinturco Rogue Clones	Posted - 2010.04.06 08:30:00 - [10] Edited by: Telinturco on 06/04/2010 08:31:50 Edited by: Telinturco on 06/04/2010 08:31:25 Edited by: Telinturco on 06/04/2010 08:30:43 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: GreenpeaceHippie Care to explain? especially considering that cruise missiles don't do full dps against even a battleship without other things helping (target painters, webs)? The best differences I've seen in resists are 30%. Even with that accounted for it seems like less DPS than the others. And even in that instance wouldn't the Maelstrom do better with higher dps and still selectable types? Comments: - Cruise missiles do not have trouble dealing full damage with 3 rigors and a painter. - A 30% resist difference is more than it sounds like. For instance, 572/(1-.3) = 817 DPS - A properly set up Raven deals 572 DPS (no implants) with full damage type selection at any range. This neglects Fury which can sometimes be used (especially against battleships). - A properly set up Maelstrom deals 930 DPS with 75% damage type selection at 5km. By 55km you're dealing 372 DPS with damage type selection and maybe 600 with Barrage (and no damage type selection). - A properly set up Rail Rokh deals 595 DPS at 54km with no damage type selection. As you can see, ultimately it comes down to the fact that you deal pretty much full damage with cruise, have full damage type selection, and don't have to worry about tracking. You can go anywhere, and do any mission... all with the same ship. The Raven family is an extremely solid choice for missioning. Disclaimer: The numbers are approximate. -Liang The facts are strong with this one... "'Treason' is nothing more than a concept invented by winners, as an excuse for hanging losers." -Benjamin Franklin

King Rothgar Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.04.06 09:50:00 - [11] For comparison a pve pulse abaddon does about 900 dps at 16km and 750 at 55km without drones and straight t2 gear. However, you are locked into EM/therm damage. Generally this isn't a problem though, even angels break pretty quickly. Tracking is not an issue except on frigates and that's what light drones are for. Also, armor tanks work just fine for missioning. I use a single rep, DCII and 2x EANM II's, no problems tanking anything except guristas misisons, which I reject anyways since ECM sucks.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.04.06 10:09:00 - [12] Originally by: King Rothgar For comparison a pve pulse abaddon does about 900 dps at 16km and 750 at 55km without drones and straight t2 gear. However, you are locked into EM/therm damage. Generally this isn't a problem though, even angels break pretty quickly. Tracking is not an issue except on frigates and that's what light drones are for. Also, armor tanks work just fine for missioning. I use a single rep, DCII and 2x EANM II's, no problems tanking anything except guristas misisons, which I reject anyways since ECM sucks. This Liang is clueless. Btw vargur >>>> golem
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE	Posted - 2010.04.06 10:45:00 - [13] Why the Raven is the king of mission running. 1. 100% Changeable damage type from its high slots 2. Easier to train, less skill points required to be effective. 3. Very easy to fly. 4. Huge range. One area where the Cruise Raven excels would be how much DPS it can apply at range. None of the gunboats really comes close to the DPS to range ratio. Yes, you will get gunboats that will put up a bigger EFT number, but you'll have much shorter ranges and with the Amarr/Gallente ones, you'll be locked into two damage types (EM/Therm or Kin/Therm respectively). You'll get additional problems such as tracking disruption too. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.04.06 11:37:00 - [14] I fly missions with friends on occasion. This one time, on mission camp, I flew a cruise CNR while my friends flew a Vargur and a Kronos. Let's just say my DPS for the whole three hours was 0 - missiles have flight time, and even the battleships were dead long before my cruise missile got to the first target. Ships with guns may have lower sustained DPS, but when they can fit multiple volleys into the time it takes one volley of missiles to travel the 40km to the target it doesn't matter that the CNR has much higher on-paper DPS versus an infinite HP target. [Aussie players: join channels ANZAC or AUSSIES]
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.04.06 11:40:00 - [15] Originally by: Mara Rinn Ships with guns may have lower sustained DPS, but when they can fit multiple volleys into the time it takes one volley of missiles to travel the 40km to the target it doesn't matter that the CNR has much higher on-paper DPS versus an infinite HP target. the usual missile problem. In a larger mass of people, who use direct damage weapons, you are simply useless because you dont contribute any DPS.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.04.06 11:45:00 - [16] As an extreme example, it is possible for my Raven to project cruise missiles about 250km. The flight time of those missiles is in the order of minutes, and the raven has to stay on grid for that whole flight time. Should the Raven be destroyed, cloak or warp off before the missiles arrive, the missiles will disappear. A Rokh on the other hand can land on grid, target the enemy, fire a couple of rounds (which impact the target instantly), then warp off-grid before the first salvo of cruise missiles impacts the target (assuming the target is still there). [Aussie players: join channels ANZAC or AUSSIES]
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.04.06 11:55:00 - [17] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 06/04/2010 11:55:31
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.06 11:56:00 - [18] Originally by: Mara Rinn As an extreme example, it is possible for my Raven to project cruise missiles about 250km. The flight time of those missiles is in the order of minutes, and the raven has to stay on grid for that whole flight time. Should the Raven be destroyed, cloak or warp off before the missiles arrive, the missiles will disappear. A Rokh on the other hand can land on grid, target the enemy, fire a couple of rounds (which impact the target instantly), then warp off-grid before the first salvo of cruise missiles impacts the target (assuming the target is still there). Which is relevant to missions how? You just need to know when to stop firing on the first target, which is not when it explodes but earlier.
Djavo Midas Tycho	Posted - 2010.04.06 12:00:00 - [19] I wouldn't swap my Navy Issue Geddon for a Raven, missioning in Amarr so it's all good!
Von Kapiche Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.06 14:17:00 - [20] Raven is just lowest common denominator; the one ship that does all things equally well, even if what it does isn't as good as a niche ship. My CNR hardly cost less than my Mach ( just pointing out an equal comparison ) and I sure as hell wouldn't use the CNR for Angels if I had a Mach around. Likewise a normal Raven vs a Mael. I was about to reverse that for Guristas, but actually how much dps does a reasonable arty Mael do now? Amarr/Caldari is working out a useful ( if rather SP intensive ) path. I suspect people run Ravens a lot because they're told they're the best, and it self-perpetuates. If you only use one sub-marauder, ever, then I can see the CNR being "best", but if you can diversify some... sorry, don't see that at all.

Ewardous	Posted - 2010.04.06 14:59:00 - [21] I and my wife run our lvl 4 missons together. The battle ships we use...Me a Typhoon and my wife a Raven. We kick royal butt! She is a shield tank, while I am a armor tank. We both sometimes will fit a minor repping for each other depending on who gets the aggro. We use cruise missles btw...
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.06 16:33:00 - [22] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 06/04/2010 16:33:42 Originally by: King Rothgar For comparison a pve pulse abaddon does about 900 dps at 16km and 750 at 55km without drones and straight t2 gear. However, you are locked into EM/therm damage. Generally this isn't a problem though, even angels break pretty quickly. Tracking is not an issue except on frigates and that's what light drones are for. Also, armor tanks work just fine for missioning. I use a single rep, DCII and 2x EANM II's, no problems tanking anything except guristas misisons, which I reject anyways since ECM sucks. Comments: - Yes, an armor tank works for missioning just fine. No, an armor tank isn't more efficient for missions. There's a reason you see 4 gyro/3 TE Machs floating around. - I don't reject Guristas missions because ECM sucks (as Amarr) - I reject them because shooting the wrong damage type sucks. This compounds the problem that "ECM sucks" - because you can't kill the jammers in as timely of a manner. - Shooting Angels and Guristas with lasers SUCKS, and definitions of "breaking pretty quickly" must vary pretty **ing wildly. Here, have some data: Arch Gistum Centurion (200 Eff DPS) - Kin Missiles Req DPS: 719 (77.15% efficient) - Pure Exp Req DPS: 555 (100.00% efficient) - AN MF Req DPS: 1204 (46.08% efficient) Dire Pithum Annihilator (200 Req DPS) - CN AM Req DPS: 642 (94.17% efficient) - Pure Kin Req DPS: 604 (100.00% efficient) - AN MF Req DPS: 851 (71.02% efficient) Take home: 900 DPS from an Abaddon < 572 DPS from a Raven. -Liang Ed: Formatting -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire
Vitamin B12 Tyrell Megacorporation	Posted - 2010.04.06 16:38:00 - [23] well its pretty easy to explain. skilltime caldari missiles: nothing -> large everything else turrets: small -> medium -> large you can go directly to the large weapons.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.04.06 17:07:00 - [24] Originally by: Vitamin B12 well its pretty easy to explain. skilltime caldari missiles: nothing -> large everything else turrets: small -> medium -> large you can go directly to the large weapons. Actually if you are a new player you have to use a cruiser/bc before your raven ,so heavy m-->cruise m oh and if you want to try out torp then that too. And possibly you will learn the light one too. Then you need target painter skills. So after all I dont think that skilling for the raven is much faster, than for any other npcing bs. Btw it is strange that those who say raven is the best dont use it ,they use paladins and vargurs how weird is that :) Oh and missile delay will hurt you badly if you want to npc in a gang many volleys wont reach your targets^^+ most npc will shoot defender missiles(dunno how much this lowers your dps now). The raven is only good if you have to change dmg type frequently, but hey mael/vargur can do that too,same for dominix.
King Rothgar Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.04.06 17:17:00 - [25] Liang, I'm pretty sure my pulse abaddon will kill any angel BS before your first missile hits the target. I'd say that's pretty quick. To put this in perspective, my pve abaddon 2 volley's angel BC's with a RoF of about 5 seconds. Against sansha/bloods it's 1 volley. That said I'm running around with very nearly all lvl5 skills and +5% hardwirings. I don't use faction gear on pve ships since they are crappy pve ships. No sense wasting much isk on them. Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.06 17:22:00 - [26] Originally by: King Rothgar Liang, I'm pretty sure my pulse abaddon will kill any angel BS before your first missile hits the target. I'd say that's pretty quick. To put this in perspective, my pve abaddon 2 volley's angel BC's with a RoF of about 5 seconds. Against sansha/bloods it's 1 volley. That said I'm running around with very nearly all lvl5 skills and +5% hardwirings. I don't use faction gear on pve ships since they are crappy pve ships. No sense wasting much isk on them. News flash: I have the same skills you do. You don't kill angel battleships before a Raven will. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Exploding Tukey	Posted - 2010.04.06 17:57:00 - [27] Cruise Raven dps at 100km = Cruise Raven dps at 5km. Time it takes for Cruise Raven to get into optimal range = 0 if target within 120km A cruise raven will hit even frigs that an Abbadon can't come close to tracking. Missiles dont miss! sure you can do a bigger volley at optimum range, or when circumstances are JUST RIGHT, but when it comes to killing a group of people, a Raven does have it's upsides. Plus, FoF missiles when jammed and variable damage type with rate of fire bonus, and not kinetic boost like other Caldari ships.
Von Kapiche Minmatar	Posted - 2010.04.06 18:12:00 - [28] Originally by: Exploding Tukey Cruise Raven dps at 100km = Cruise Raven dps at 5km. For sure; doesn't mean that it's DPS won't get overtaken somewhere in the middle, by... many things, so now go and average out the DPS of a nicely skilled megabeam Abaddon, to pick a random alternative. How often are you shooting at 100km in pve anyway? Originally by: Exploding Tukey Time it takes for Cruise Raven to get into optimal range = 0 if target within 120km Rclick->load IN Radio; that's hardly longer :P and initially, you then have to wait for cruise to fly 120km while the abby is plinking away with it's cruiser DPS. Ofc once the first missile arrives ( assuming you know how many volleys it takes ) the Raven starts catching up rapidly. Counting volleys is a big IF though, especially with random defenders. Not so clear cut anymore, eh. Originally by: Exploding Tukey A cruise raven will hit even frigs that an Abbadon can't come close to tracking. Missiles dont miss! Tis true, although not something you're gonna do often. As an experiment I left a couple of gurista frigs alone and sicced my hobs on one, and painted the other & shot it with missiles. Faction fit triple-rigor CNR with good support skills, surprisngly they died together.
Daratori	Posted - 2010.04.06 18:20:00 - [29] Why do people use the Raven? Well, it's cheap, doesn't require that much skillpoints to use, has selectable dmg types, plenty of range, quite good dps and a decent fit will do full dmg to cruisers. That said, that doesn't make it the best mission boat for every mission ever, it's just a really good allrounder.
MeBiatch	Posted - 2010.04.06 18:22:00 - [30] Originally by: Furb Killer Cruise missiles do easily max dps against BS. You are confusing them with torps. Missiles are easy, not affected by tracking disruptors, full damage selection, good dps (also because shield tank > armor tank for missions), no range issues. Amarr BS got good raw dps, but lack the damage type selection. Minmatar AC boats are now also good for missions, but that is a fairly recent change. am I the only one left who still uses the domi for missions? i like teh domi cuss you can armor tank it shield tank it chuck on some sentries... maybe some 350's for some added dps and you got one nice mission ship... though i think you see more ravens becuase the ravens is becuase of the ease of missles and the ability to do any damage type... this is just my opionion but i think the best tech I mission bs ships in no order are: reven, mael, domi.... so really you have 3 good options.... minmatar, raven or domi



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