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CEOJiabao
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Posted - 2010.04.06 19:17:00 -
[1]
Edited by: CEOJiabao on 06/04/2010 19:24:39
Currently my small corp is having a problem with how to tax that is reasonably just without putting a heavy burden on someone to track those nasty taxes or a heavy burden on whichever ratters rat the most.
After some discussion we've deiced that the tax rate should be 0 and we are implementing a corp dues system instead. While we are trying to code something to keep track of this automatically via the API I thought it might be worthwhile to mention here.
~The Idea~ Implement something ingame to keep track of dues instead of taxes.
 Be able to be set weekly or monthly.
The ability to set the date that they have to pay their dues or have the option to do it every 30th day from the date they join.
Charge different rates for mains and alts, and/or the ability to attach all the alts to a main for a flat rate charged off the main.
If the member so desires they can have it automatically deducted, or they can choose to manually click the payment(10 day window; 5 before, 5 after.)
The option to charge individually per player or the corp as a whole.
An idea was mentioned to allow payment in minerals/items/ships ect
If the person doesn't pay their dues they get their roles stripped (directors included with the exception of the CEO. ) This would help provide protection against corp theft as old non functioning members wouldn't be able to come back and have the roles they used to have.
This is the most just way we have come up to generate passive income for the corp without moons or a corp made production/ratting program.
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Widemouth Deepthroat
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Posted - 2010.04.06 19:45:00 -
[2]
Just have tax like everyone else. Make miners/traders work for the corp (corp ship replacement) or kick them out on their ass. |
Reggie Stoneloader
JAFA Trade and Manufacturing Cooperative
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Posted - 2010.04.06 20:37:00 -
[3]
I'd like to have a more nuanced tax system as well. Tax brackets, a ceiling on how much an individual can be taxed per month, a minimum payment for less active or harder-to-tax members, taxes based on roles or titles, that sort of thing could really help administrators balance out corp contributions without having to do reams and reams of paperwork. As a rule, if I have to build an excel template to manage a key task in the game, I'd like to see an in-game feature that handles it.
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Crusades: Security Status |
Misanthra
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Posted - 2010.04.06 23:36:00 -
[4]
Thinking for something like this if you want to micromamage that much...you brought the excel spreadsheet upon yourself.
Some ideas could be make a cheesy 5 minute alt, bring in corp and have them be the send money to character to get transaction logs. Some corps do this to let players buy out of frontline pvp service. Want to carebear in the middle of a war...send xyz amount of isk to collection toon and enjoy your vacation for whatever the time frame bought was.
Not using taxes also would hurt leadership tracking of peeps as well. With taxes CEO sees wallet showing someone supposed to be on the frontlines is making millions ratting/mission running on the other side of the universe and getting taxed. Something not adding up there lol.
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CEOJiabao
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Posted - 2010.04.07 00:48:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Misanthra
Thinking for something like this if you want to micromamage that much...you brought the excel spreadsheet upon yourself.
Some ideas could be make a cheesy 5 minute alt, bring in corp and have them be the send money to character to get transaction logs. Some corps do this to let players buy out of frontline pvp service. Want to carebear in the middle of a war...send xyz amount of isk to collection toon and enjoy your vacation for whatever the time frame bought was.
Not using taxes also would hurt leadership tracking of peeps as well. With taxes CEO sees wallet showing someone supposed to be on the frontlines is making millions ratting/mission running on the other side of the universe and getting taxed. Something not adding up there lol.
This sounds fairly tough, but the GUI I am thinking of would make it rather simple, setting it up may take time but once it's going you just let it roll with adjustments. The spreadsheet we are working on is php based and should be able to take care of itself and yes it's quite complex but so is eve. The directors and I are working hard to make our members hardly work.
I like your response because it includes ideas on ways to do this withe the current mechanics... however these are not as efficient as what I am thinking.
bear in mind using taxes can kill a mission runners desire to run missions and make himself isk rich.
Example:
Mission runner A does 4 level 4's and we get 3million in taxes from him over the course of a month.
Mission runner B does 400 level 4's and we get 300 million from him
Unless we can stop that tax or go through our logs to return cash mission runner b doesn't want to stay in the corp and we are excluding a ship wielding powerhouse.
As far as buying your way out of front line service I squash that in the recruitment process, you will field ships in combat even if it's just a tackle frigate or you will get kicked. This helps protect our miners from corp hoppers who try to kill hulks. Pick on our miners and they will pick on you quite simple.
I don't make our pvp ops mandatory and if I ever do have to I'd set a tax at that time. (it sounds like there is a contradiction here so I'll explain... it is mandatory to show up every now and again but no single op will ever be mandatory.)
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CEOJiabao
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Posted - 2010.04.07 17:28:00 -
[6]
I would like to see some more player or even ccp feedback on this topic.
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CEOJiabao
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Posted - 2010.04.09 04:34:00 -
[7]
Received some positive in game feedback on this as it was tossed around in some channels.
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CEOJiabao
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Posted - 2010.04.10 14:10:00 -
[8]
upupup
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ChrisIsherwood
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Posted - 2010.04.10 14:49:00 -
[9]
Dues instead of taxes is a reasonable idea.
The minimum would seem to be to allow a fixed (not %) due/tax per month with the ability to have it autopaid.
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Carthag Tsimpo
Caldari
The Forgotten Navy
The Forgotten Heritage
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Posted - 2010.04.12 12:46:00 -
[10]
This is good stuff.
More options are needed.
FYI it's a 5 minute thing to get a list of top ratters from the corp wallet export.
Downside is that it's limited to 1000 entries, leaving you having to redo this 5-minute work 2-3 times a week if you're busy corp. And then a few minutes to remove any duplicate entries (making sure they dont overlap between periods).
Of course, this should be possible to automate with the right skills.
Here's an example
The above is an old graph showing the top 10 mission runners and their bounty+mission reward contributed to the corp through the corp tax over a 10 day period.
This kind of stuff was very appreciated by the members, gave us the directors some good graphs to estimate monthly income through taxes aswell as finding out who were really contributing.
Of course, I made several other graphs too. Including a graph showing average income hour per hour over a 24hour period, giving us a good idea of what timezones we were spanning.
The only downside was the 1000 row limit making this job tedious.
Having any of the proposed features would greatly improve the handling of this information. There are alot of possibilities out there, just give us some proper tools to work with!
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.04.12 15:15:00 -
[11]
Fixed amount of tax per month is a rather often solution for many corps, and I would support that functionality to be implemented by game.
However, many other ideas I see as impractical to implement. CCP should not try to be a fully scaled Tax office - and they actually can't, even if they devote every available resources.
But some of proposed mechanics still can be implemented using roles system, IMHO. Just not a current one.
Better tax mechanics would be one of a many reasons to overhaul it.
Sadly, CCP shows no enthusiasm about that, though they easily admit current roles system is too cumbersome and limiting.
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Czert ElPrezidente
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.04.12 19:56:00 -
[12]
Nice ideas, hope they will be implemented in next expansion, if not, BUMP this therad until it is completed. :).
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http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm&c=11 - mod for one of best game ever |
CEOJiabao
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Posted - 2010.04.12 20:24:00 -
[13]
Edited by: CEOJiabao on 12/04/2010 20:27:10
As an update our dues system is coming along nicely. Duimech is our developer and i've stolen his words from our forums. for you guys with a link to show an example of what it looks like.
"The way I have this code written is for 1 person to check for payments (once per hour at most).
How it works: The information is not cached if you pull it from the server. You have to wait 1 hour before new data will appear. The link above will pull the fresh info from the server. You click two buttons to pull the information and it will display on a final landing page for you. If you do this more than 1 time an hour, you will see a blank page where the table on the right side shows because there is an error.
The table on the right is currently showing only the players that have contributed 3 mil isk or more. When people actually start paying, I will change this so it will only show the players that have not payed the set amount. It will be easier to keep track of.
You can click the link below as many times as you like. After someone has pulled the data it stays cached on my server until someone else refreshes it, or throws an error from refreshing it too often. I have a table displaying the cached until time. It is in EvE time, not your time. Why did I post the links like that? In hopes that you will read this before clicking. Did you even see the first one?
Enjoy! "
http://www.solsticehorizon.net/stuff/examplev2.gif red on the left denotes alts as we don't charge per alt only per main; green on the left denotes a main. Red on the right is an incorrect payment amount. green shows the amount is more than 5 million (our test amount to be paid.) the list on the left is pulled via the api and the way it distinguishes an alt from a main is the base that is assigned (we could have done this via roles as well.) the list on the right is pulled from a specific devision in the corp wallet via the api. It shows all transactions in that division and now only pulls the specified dates. We are still working on this to make it better any ideas are welcome.
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CEOJiabao
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Posted - 2010.04.13 13:37:00 -
[14]
posted some new stuff in here yesterday no comments on it yet...
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Carthag Tsimpo
Caldari
The Forgotten Navy
The Forgotten Heritage
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Posted - 2010.04.13 13:41:00 -
[15]
Left hand list:
Make it sort the greens together, or remove the alts alltogether. No need for that info is it? In a large corp, it would get messy.
Right hand table:
Does it sum all the donations per character to that wallet division? Perhpas someone accidently miss out on a zero in the number field and have to do another donation to fix it. I.e. 500k + 4.5m.
Would it show that as green?
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CEOJiabao
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Posted - 2010.04.13 15:17:00 -
[16]
Left list: We are able to remove the red names from the list as well if we so choose
right list: I like this idea let me get with dui and see what he can do, cause really hes the man I'm just the dreamer.
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Duimech
Solstice Horizon
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Posted - 2010.04.13 22:30:00 -
[17]
Quick update on this. I don't have much time, so this is a side project for me.
I have rewritten the code that pushes this project so it is easier to modify the results shown. The left side will show a list of mains in a table, then alts in a table under the mains. As the mains table grows, the alts table is pushed down. The right side is only showing data that meets the criteria specified. I currently have it showing transactions that are over 5mil isk and in the month of April, which is sorted by the name column.
Here is an updated screenshot.
My next step is to allow the admin that will run the scripts to specify a beginning and ending date which will be used as a variable for criteria on the right side. If I keep everything automated, which is my goal, then the admin will not be able to specify the dates shown, but they will be able to have a cron job setup pulling only the data that matches the current month. The cron job can run every hour. However, if I leave it so the admin specifies the beginning and ending dates, then they have the ability to pull more specific data. I am still weighing the possibilities here.
I will work on having the transactions per player add up to give a total. I do not have much experience with XML (which is all that I am given), so this is a journey for me. I will see what I can come up with to track players and their transactions.
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My life is based on a true story! |
Felix Macey
Lead Farmers
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Posted - 2010.04.14 08:44:00 -
[18]
Actually that is a very nice idea! As long as there is a basic option to allow people who don't want to micromanage to use the existing flat rate tax I don't see a problem with it.
If we could have alliance membership billing built into it as well the idea is made of win 
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Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
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Posted - 2010.04.14 10:07:00 -
[19]
Fully support this idea.
The tax system has its benefits and drawbacks.
- Mission runners pay lot more than miners
- Hardcore pay more than casual
However with Dues, everyone pays the same fee to be a member. A casual weekend player may see this as unfare when compared to a hardcore player, however it allows a corp top generate money from industrialists etc.
What I would suggest is the option to mix the two.
On the corp setup panel have the already in place Tax % option. But ALSO have a Dues option. This can be set to whatever the CEO wants and comes out on the 1st of each month.
You could then run both if you wished.
HOWEVER: There would have to be something in place to stop someone changing the ammount just before the payment is due. I can see the potential to ramp it up to a high number then kick all members.
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Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer
"I've got a couple of Strippers on my ship... and they just love to dance!"
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CEOJiabao
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Posted - 2010.04.14 18:48:00 -
[20]
Edited by: CEOJiabao on 14/04/2010 18:56:09
Edited by: CEOJiabao on 14/04/2010 18:49:29
Dui has been hard at work on getting the aforementioned idea of adding the totals up for the people who can't follow instructions and has given them heir own table. Currently it's not working properly but I'm sure he'll get it to work here in short order (assuming he drops his life and schoolwork.
http://solsticehorizon.net/stuff/showduesv2.gif
I'm also going to edit the original idea to include the ideas posted directly above this. Just as a short note I never intended this to be mutually exclusive with tax, use it if you like (it does make it easier to track who is failing at joining ops when you can ramp it to 100%).
As far as the casual player thinking it is unfair goes... he does (in our corp) get to utilize the stuff that is bought with dues at the rate the hardcore players get to use them. I think it would come down to how much you are charging for dues. Our 5million can be made in a few minutes by most players and we exclude anyone under 5 million skill points from having to pay (cause they need books that we are not going to start handing out.) Now if we were charging 350million per month (viable as a 0.0 corp but we aren't so meh) then I could see where they have a cause to complain.
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Duimech
Solstice Horizon
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Posted - 2010.04.16 06:56:00 -
[21]
Another quick update. It seems as though my linux server does not currently support xslt 2.0. I can install a third party software on my server to support it, but that would limit what I am working on to only people with full admin access to their server. I would like to keep this so that even people with limited access web space and ftp access can use this.
I can add up the totals, but without xslt 2.0, I cannot group the total amount to each member. So what I have done for now is added a third table that shows everyone that has made payments less than the amount you specified. This means that if someone needed to make a 5 mil payment and only paid .5 mil, then made a second payment for 4.5 mil, that both entries will show up on the table that displays the less than specified amount. In theory, as long as you don't have too many people that are not able to send a correct payment, then the third table will stay short or possibly non-existent.
I believe this is almost ready for public testing/release. I am looking into incorporating tax into this, but I haven't had much time to do the coding. I would like to test this with a large corp wallet journal xml sheet. I know this project works well with our small corp wallet sheet, but I have not been able to test it with a large one. If anyone in a large corp is willing to donate a corp wallet journal it would help with testing. I understand that people may not want to share this information with anyone, but I figured I would ask. I can assure you that I will be the only one that sees it (assuming you send it to me privately. Thanks.
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My life is based on a true story! |
Ugly Bank
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Posted - 2010.04.16 07:06:00 -
[22]
I really like this idea mainly beacause of them miners not having (due to game mechanics) pay any taxes and still making quite a bunch of cash. In my last corp we had to drop our taxes to 0% beacause the occational miners newer paid their taxes and the present ones cheated with the iskies. Ofcourse we booted em all, but then again the new ones did it aswell. Now I'm in a purely PvP based corp only beacause of that. No miners allowed. Same problem occurs to all indie characters in general and marketeers. So a valid membership due would be a great thing to have.
Or you could just tax everything in general. The taxes could be dropped pretty much if all would equally pay em.
Ugly
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CEOJiabao
Solstice Horizon
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Posted - 2010.04.16 14:24:00 -
[23]
Dui has now made it so you can sort the data via month/and amount when you pull the data making it ready for our little corp use.
Any ccp feedback on this idea or a corp wallet journal (from their sisi test corp) would be appreciated. Maybe have one of your mass testing days all donate to a specific wallet would be fantastic.
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CEOJiabao
Solstice Horizon
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Posted - 2010.04.17 11:59:00 -
[24]
Finding bugs and demanding dui fix them!
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Duimech
Solstice Horizon
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Posted - 2010.04.17 17:41:00 -
[25]
All known bugs have been fixed.
For further testing to take place we need people to donate some corp wallet journal xml sheets. Email them to me if you would like to keep them private. If you would like to email them to me just send me an ingame mail requesting my email.
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My life is based on a true story! |
CEOJiabao
Solstice Horizon
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Posted - 2010.04.24 12:48:00 -
[26]
Boink
still working on this
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Thy Collector
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Posted - 2010.04.25 18:31:00 -
[27]
I agree with the OP. I've been in several corps with similar situations and the ability to have a dues system built into the game only makes sense. Its just like the rent system of offices, only for people.
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Clarket
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Posted - 2010.05.10 01:44:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Clarket on 10/05/2010 01:46:42
Helping test this out
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David Grogan
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.10 06:40:00 -
[29]
Edited by: David Grogan on 10/05/2010 06:43:29
Originally by: Widemouth Deepthroat
Make miners/traders work for the corp (corp ship replacement) or kick them out on their ass.
problem is u start asking people to pay dues or mine or get out policy will result in a very empty corp channel. (Eve Online is a game not a job and as soon as you start making it feel like a job people stop playing)
setting a tax means only ratters/mission runs get hit with the tax and traders/miners dont.
best way to get miners to pay dues is to run a weekly corp mining op.
best way to get traders to chip in is ask them to assist in selling off goods produced by corp by finding locations of the best sell prices.
your researchers/inventors/t2 builders can assist corp by providing copies of blueprints so ye can build stuff to sell.
SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P |
CEOJiabao
Solstice Horizon
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Posted - 2010.05.11 02:54:00 -
[30]
"problem is u start asking people to pay dues or mine or get out policy will result in a very empty corp channel. (Eve Online is a game not a job and as soon as you start making it feel like a job people stop playing)"
-yo don't have to charge them dues you can set it to 0, and the dues don't have to be high 5 million isk can be made in less than a few minutes of play time. sometimes the get out policy is the best policy why have people with roles who come back from 7 months and want to start over AND know things about your corp AND have the roles to act on it that can hurt it? If they don't have any roles they may know things and may be able to shoot corpies but they can't do much else can they?
"setting a tax means only ratters/mission runs get hit with the tax and traders/miners dont."
-this is stated did you read the thread?
"best way to get miners to pay dues is to run a weekly corp mining op."
-watch how many people can't make this op every week or it's just at a bad time for them.
"best way to get traders to chip in is ask them to assist in selling off goods produced by corp by finding locations of the best sell prices."
-fairly sure this is all automated on eve central and several other web pages... but hay if you want to do it the hard way...
"your researchers/inventors/t2 builders can assist corp by providing copies of blueprints so ye can build stuff to sell."
-that's even more of a pain in then asking for money... now I have to go sell it/use it. If I sell it then I have to get what the corp needs. Instead I'm just asking these guys to play the game their way be isk rich and pass some to the corp for our operations cost (which is very low so I don't ask for much I think the last round was 400k each) If you can't make 400k get out.
Your best ways are not good at all for my corporation and have their own flaws. They are not anything that hasn't been discussed in vent or experienced by our members. The members we have like our system. we even have ones who have paid ahead of time and we just set them as alts for the duration so they don't show up on the list.
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