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[Proposal] Sleeper A.I. for all missions

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Zircon Dasher	Posted - 2010.04.11 17:42:00 - [31] Yes please. And/or randomize triggers, both ship type and group # (on those missions with several "groups") Anything to make mission running more interesting and less AFK.
Jerid Verges Gallente The Society of Innovation The Last Stand	Posted - 2010.04.11 18:51:00 - [32] Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Jerid Verges By Micromanaging you mean recalling them every other minute? As a loving drone user /not supported yes micro managing means recalling drones when they got aggro. it also means picking group aggro wisely. it also means you got your turrets active on the domi all the time to keep the aggro on you. gasps domi user finally have to do something in missions. (no salvaing and looting dont count.) Wrong. As it currently stands a Sleeper AI will ALWAYS aggro the drones because the drones have a paper thin tank but great DPS. Blasters and Rails have sucky DPS and ships are tanked very good. Not to mention missioners can't afford to sacrifice PW/CPU for properly fitted tank AND guns. So, all this proposal would do is make it so drones would be unusable in missions.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.04.11 19:04:00 - [33] huh? what are you smoking? you can properly fit turrets on domis and ishtars. (although i have to say that I usually fit ishtar with ACs) Quote: [Dominix, permatank] Large Armor Repairer II Large Armor Repairer II Damage Control II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor I Dual 250mm Railgun II, Lead Charge L Dual 250mm Railgun II, Lead Charge L Dual 250mm Railgun II, Lead Charge L Dual 250mm Railgun II, Lead Charge L Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Ogre II x5 Garde II x5 if you go for 3 CCC rigs you can even run Antimatter with perma tank. and the fit leaves soo much room that even without all lvl5s it should fit easily. but yes you really have to sacrify a lot to fit guns.
Jerid Verges Gallente The Society of Innovation The Last Stand	Posted - 2010.04.11 21:32:00 - [34] Lol did you just post a Dual Rail fit? Wow. Dual Rails are useless, their range sucks and their tracking sucks and their scan resolution sucks if you want to shoot anything smaller then a cruiser. I also doubt you can fit any speed mods, so you can't control the range you need to be at to make those rails work effectively. Why would you even fit 2 Drone Links when that would put your drone range WAAAY beyond what those guns can hit at? (Because you're out of PW? Probably) Not to mention, that tank is so permaed that, it once again proves my point, Sleeper AIs will always retarget drones and basically force ANY droneboat to keep their drones in the hold permenantly.
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.11 21:49:00 - [35] One thing for sure, dual rails suck very badly maybe if CCP decreased their sig radius to 250.. people still wouldn't use them
Marlona Sky D00M. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2010.04.11 23:34:00 - [36] Hey. Don't turn down this idea because Gallente rails/blasters are broken right now. Actually, almost everything about Gallente is borked. That is another issue that needs to be looked at separately.
Gigiarc	Posted - 2010.04.12 23:01:00 - [37] Maybe this could be applied to plex rats too?
Marlona Sky D00M. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2010.04.13 06:12:00 - [38] Originally by: Gigiarc Maybe this could be applied to plex rats too? Yes. Belt rats, plex rats, anomaly rats, deed space rats.. ALL NPC RATS IN GAME.
Cyberman Mastermind	Posted - 2010.04.13 07:42:00 - [39] Originally by: darius mclever yes micro managing means recalling drones when they got aggro. I admit it's been some time since I last was in a WH system. From what I remember, though, it was like this ) deploy drone ) drone gets aggro *) drone is dead upon first shot Where second and third happen approximately half a second apart. At what point exactly are we supposed to recall the drone? We ARE talking about drones, are we? Not deployable turrets, as the so-called sentry "drones" should be named ?
Marlona Sky D00M. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2010.04.13 07:48:00 - [40] Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind Originally by: darius mclever yes micro managing means recalling drones when they got aggro. I admit it's been some time since I last was in a WH system. From what I remember, though, it was like this ) deploy drone ) drone gets aggro *) drone is dead upon first shot Where second and third happen approximately half a second apart. At what point exactly are we supposed to recall the drone? We ARE talking about drones, are we? Not deployable turrets, as the so-called sentry "drones" should be named ? oh mai gawd... How many times do I have to say that I am not suggesting that the NPC's in missions and such would be uber powerful alpha shooting dronezor stuff. I am talking about them switching targets, maybe some remote repairing, whatever. Everyone is so emo about this, "But my drones!" crap.
Marlona Sky D00M. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2010.04.19 16:47:00 - [41] Anymore thoughts on this?
Anna Lifera Gallente Imperial Legion of Amarr	Posted - 2010.04.19 17:12:00 - [42] Originally by: Marlona Sky Yes. Belt rats, plex rats, anomaly rats, deed space rats.. ALL NPC RATS IN GAME. so what would the belt rats do differently that would even remotely impact a miner at all? nothing, that's what, and u know it. u're not putting this in perspective when u want to nerf a more active profession that actually requires a lot more attention. u'd just end up pushing ppl (especially the newbie, who does inevitably lose a few battleships doing their first lvl 4s, which would get much much worse with this change) towards afk/macro mining. then ppl will cry even more about the mineral prices. all u're doing is encouraging ppl to afk more and punishing them for actually playing the game. unless mining is nerfed, such as less tank for exhumers (but mining nerfs would never happen, depsite tons of exhumers still infesting high sec belts), i'm not even gonna consider supporting this. --- It is not fair that a 20 man gang can kill at 200 gang. - Emo TJ
Jerid Verges Gallente The Society of Innovation The Last Stand	Posted - 2010.04.20 00:18:00 - [43] Originally by: Anna Lifera unless mining is nerfed, such as less tank for exhumers (but mining nerfs would never happen, depsite tons of exhumers still infesting high sec belts), i'm not even gonna consider supporting this. Nerf mining? Are you kidding? What are you some kind of mission carebear? What? You want to make it so Exhumers are TOTALLY defenseless? We can't even survive a properly fitted suicide gank, and even a tank that can take on low/null belt rats is hard to fit. Not to mention, mining is pretty much the only profession that seems to have gotten less and less viable the longer Eve stays around. So if anything, it's already been nerfed (By the free market) meanwhile missions are untouchable since most of the reward comes from salvage, tags, and direct isk. Quote: a more active profession that actually requires a lot more attention. Mission macroing is just as big of a problem as mining macroing. ALSO: Thread doubly not supported still because it is a stealth Gallente nerf.
Ephemeron Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates	Posted - 2010.04.20 06:03:00 - [44] Quote: ALSO: Thread doubly not supported still because it is a stealth Gallente nerf. Ah come on, no serious mission runner uses gallente It's Ravens and Navy Ravens all the way.
Anna Lifera Gallente Imperial Legion of Amarr	Posted - 2010.04.20 06:57:00 - [45] Edited by: Anna Lifera on 20/04/2010 06:58:17 Originally by: Jerid Verges Nerf mining? Are you kidding? What are you some kind of mission carebear? What? You want to make it so Exhumers are TOTALLY defenseless? We can't even survive a properly fitted suicide gank, and even a tank that can take on low/null belt rats is hard to fit. Not to mention, mining is pretty much the only profession that seems to have gotten less and less viable the longer Eve stays around. So if anything, it's already been nerfed (By the free market) meanwhile missions are untouchable since most of the reward comes from salvage, tags, and direct isk. Mission macroing is just as big of a problem as mining macroing. 1. u supposedly can't survive yet what r all the other thousands of exhumers STILL littering the belts have to say? that's what i thought. 2. it's less and less because everyone is oversupplying ore and ice to death with those thousands of exhumers still intact to mine some more. and it's still afk and therefore, effortless--that's why it appeals to ppl this way and that's why mining shouldn't be as rewarding--it's really not a hard concept... 3. that's hilarious 'cause out of all the threads i see complaining about macro mining, this is the very first one i've ever seen about macro missioning. maybe it's because, once again, mining is effortless and therefore, infinitely easier to macro? u don't have to take my word for it--check the mineral prices. --- It is not fair that a 20 man gang can kill at 200 gang. - Emo TJ
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.20 09:59:00 - [46] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 20/04/2010 10:04:48 Originally by: Jerid Verges ... So if anything, it's already been nerfed (By the free market) meanwhile missions are untouchable since most of the reward comes from salvage, tags, and direct isk. ... Maybe you haven' noticed it, but loot dropped by NPC will be nerfed in Tyrannis explicitly to boost mining. If that will be enough, seeing how at the same time insurance will be reduced, lowering the floor for the minerals basket. it is something we will see after some time. I think that high sec mining will suffer and low sec/0.0 will not gain, but that is an opinion. Originally by: Anna Lifera Originally by: Jerid Verges Nerf mining? Are you kidding? What are you some kind of mission carebear? What? You want to make it so Exhumers are TOTALLY defenseless? We can't even survive a properly fitted suicide gank, and even a tank that can take on low/null belt rats is hard to fit. ... 1. u supposedly can't survive yet what r all the other thousands of exhumers STILL littering the belts have to say? that's what i thought. ... That you and him are speaking of 2 different situations. It is easy to suicide gank a hulk and it will not tank easily alone 0.0 rats. The large number of barge and exumers in some high sec belt show that suicide ganking isn't common enough to stop people from mining but that don't make the ships suicide proof, it only means that the potential targets vastly outnumbers the gankers.
Skanthra	Posted - 2010.04.20 13:36:00 - [47] I do run missions frequently, and I fully support this. As the others said, would need some balancing though. ~Skanthra
Scrobes	Posted - 2010.04.20 14:31:00 - [48] This clip is on topic and worth watching. Check it out. Fanfest 2009 PvE
Anna Lifera Gallente Imperial Legion of Amarr	Posted - 2010.04.20 16:40:00 - [49] Originally by: Venkul Mul That you and him are speaking of 2 different situations. It is easy to suicide gank a hulk and it will not tank easily alone 0.0 rats. The large number of barge and exumers in some high sec belt show that suicide ganking isn't common enough to stop people from mining but that don't make the ships suicide proof, it only means that the potential targets vastly outnumbers the gankers. nevertheless, it's still not even remotely bad enough to need a nerf 'cause u said so yourself that it's not common enough when the large numbers of mining ships still exist. r the high sec belts deserted like low sec? no? ok then. htfu. ppl take these player-instilled risks for their added rewards ('cause face it, belt rats don't do anything). and the only ppl who cry about it on the forums r the ones who lost that gamble 'cause they got picked out of all the 20+ exhumers that were with them. u gamble, u lose, your loss, your fault. deal with it. --- It is not fair that a 20 man gang can kill at 200 gang. - Emo TJ
Marlona Sky D00M. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2010.04.20 17:17:00 - [50] Originally by: Scrobes This clip is on topic and worth watching. Check it out. Fanfest 2009 PvE Interesting vid. So basically they need new A.I. for missioning. Different A.I.'s depending on level, rats, where it is (belt, plex, mission level), faction would be interesting.
Stil Harkonnen	Posted - 2010.04.20 17:52:00 - [51] Originally by: darius mclever huh? what are you smoking? you can properly fit turrets on domis and ishtars. (although i have to say that I usually fit ishtar with ACs) Quote: [Dominix, permatank] Large Armor Repairer II Large Armor Repairer II Damage Control II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor I Dual 250mm Railgun II, Lead Charge L Dual 250mm Railgun II, Lead Charge L Dual 250mm Railgun II, Lead Charge L Dual 250mm Railgun II, Lead Charge L Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Ogre II x5 Garde II x5 if you go for 3 CCC rigs you can even run Antimatter with perma tank. and the fit leaves soo much room that even without all lvl5s it should fit easily. but yes you really have to sacrify a lot to fit guns. huh? what are you smoking? Sleepers still go after your drones even if your turrets are all on them. Which means gallente, which rely heavily on drones, have just become the pvp AND pve failures. Putting current sleeper AI into missions makes using drones nearly impossible to tun missions in any efficient way. I'd personally rather you take away the aggressive option on drones than put sleeper AI in missions to control afk drone mission farmers. With that said, I do think missions would be better if they were made a little harder. Just don't nerf gallente mission runners in the process
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.04.20 20:05:00 - [52] we have done class 5s with domis and vexors in gang, without much of a problem.
Maxsim Goratiev Imperial Tau Syndicate	Posted - 2010.04.20 21:17:00 - [53] Quote: a) CCP don't like to spend development time on PvE and a lot of PvPers will protest if CCP was spending time there; Well, they will have to, it's time to give pve a small facelift. Quote: b) balancing them will require a noticeable effort, especially as testing missions on the Sisi server is almost useless; No need to balance them, we are only making them smarter then my calculator, , there stats stay as they are Quote: c) if done for low level missions will simply kill new players; If in low-level missions there is only one ship to shot- the player ship, the sleeper ai isn't going to do anything. We are talking about ai here, not making every frig in mission as tough as the sleeper battleships in wormholes, so canot see how it would do anything to new players. Quote: d) making missions more interesting will increase the number of people sticking to them, reducing the number of players doing PvP and that is against CCP stated goals; Well, maybe CCP needs to fix the lag so we can actually pvp in this case, huh? No use of me jumping into a system, dying wihought loading grid and calling that pvp. Quote: e) no CSM member care about missions so there is no one lobbyingfor them; I and you pick the CSM, they are elected, they have to care about what i and you care. If that isn't the case, we will take extra care next time in electing those that do care. Quote: f) harder missions would require more time to farm isk for PvP, same thing for harder belt rats, Again, that does not mean ai become stronger, only smarter, meaning ninja salvagers get shot, remote reppers get shot, suiside gankers get shot, pirats get shot, you friends get shot, cannot see anything bad about that! We need to do something about ai vaporising drones, because the current situation is unacceptable. UNtill that is fixed, you cannot let the ai shoot drones, otherwise noone will ever run missions for gallente any more.
cBOLTSON Caldari Shadow Legion. Talos Coalition	Posted - 2010.04.20 21:34:00 - [54] NOT Supported. I would prefer time be spent on the fun aspects of this game (pvp). For me personally pve is something to do to pass the time and generate wealth. Unless the proposal is to vastly change for the better the whole pve experience in eve, the change you propose will not make the game any more fun imo. Just more annoying.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.20 21:50:00 - [55] So you are against everything that doesnt directly benefit you? Serious wtf? (And this would vastly improve the pve experience). Btw i never got this sleepers instapopping drones. Granted i have done only a handful of wormholes, and no high level ones, but there when a t1 ogre got agro and was 30km away it still made it back to the drone bay usually. The drone agro was really reasonable. Now i am sure in some wormholes (harder ones?) the drone agro is much worse, but this only indicates that they can easily change the priority drones have for sleepers, which shouldnt be too high (but still it should sometimes happen, just within reasonable limits, no instapopping of drones, etc).
Jerid Verges Gallente The Society of Innovation The Last Stand	Posted - 2010.04.21 02:14:00 - [56] Originally by: Anna Lifera 1. u supposedly can't survive yet what r all the other thousands of exhumers STILL littering the belts have to say? that's what i thought. Lol wut? Ever heard of Hulkaggedon? Whenever there is a coordinated effort to go out and kill Exhumers it is always successful and easy. Why? Exhumers are easy targets. Quote: 2. it's less and less because everyone is oversupplying ore and ice to death with those thousands of exhumers still intact to mine some more. and it's still afk and therefore, effortless--that's why it appeals to ppl this way and that's why mining shouldn't be as rewarding--it's really not a hard concept... Are you kidding? Half of the problem is over supply from MISSION RUNNERS. Mission runners and drone regions provide more then HALF of the mineral supply in the market! Less so for the low ends, almost 70-80% for the high ends. Why do you think nobody mines in lowsec? Because all the mins you find in lowsec ores are provided by Missioners! Quote: 3. that's hilarious 'cause out of all the threads i see complaining about macro mining, this is the very first one i've ever seen about macro missioning. maybe it's because, once again, mining is effortless and therefore, infinitely easier to macro? u don't have to take my word for it--check the mineral prices. Do you live under a rock or something? Macro missioning is incredibly prevailant. Programs are out there that run missions for people. There are plenty of threads about Macro missioning. And that same afk missioning floods the market with reprocessed loot and ruins the profession of mining. And, lol Missions take EFFORT? LOLOLOL If anything, lvl4s require LESS effort then Mining! All you need to do is get a permatanked Raven or Dominix, get aggro, go afk, and let automated machines like drones or FOFs to do the work for you. At least in mining you have to check every 4 minutes to move the ore to the can. You're an idiot.
Anna Lifera Gallente Imperial Legion of Amarr	Posted - 2010.04.21 04:00:00 - [57] Originally by: Jerid Verges Lol wut? Ever heard of Hulkaggedon? Whenever there is a coordinated effort to go out and kill Exhumers it is always successful and easy. Why? Exhumers are easy targets. and how often does this happen? once a year? u're crying about a yearly event that's posted on the forums well in advance and u're too damn stupid to listen? lol is right. Originally by: Jerid Verges Are you kidding? Half of the problem is over supply from MISSION RUNNERS. Mission runners and drone regions provide more then HALF of the mineral supply in the market! Less so for the low ends, almost 70-80% for the high ends. Why do you think nobody mines in lowsec? Because all the mins you find in lowsec ores are provided by Missioners! lmfao wow--no one mines in low sec because it is too unsafe. that's why there r thousands of exhumers cramping up high sec belts, namely 0.5 systems. look around u, moron. idk where u even get your info but u might do better by not talking out of your ass. Originally by: Jerid Verges Do you live under a rock or something? Macro missioning is incredibly prevailant. Programs are out there that run missions for people. There are plenty of threads about Macro missioning. And that same afk missioning floods the market with reprocessed loot and ruins the profession of mining. And, lol Missions take EFFORT? LOLOLOL If anything, lvl4s require LESS effort then Mining! All you need to do is get a permatanked Raven or Dominix, get aggro, go afk, and let automated machines like drones or FOFs to do the work for you. At least in mining you have to check every 4 minutes to move the ore to the can. You're an idiot. 1. again, lmfao. link me some of those threads then. go ahead. 2. right because all that reprocessed loot will outmine a hulk. that's why there r still thousands of exhumers infesting the belts instead of "macro missioning" it up. 3. let's see--what's easier to macro? click and drag to a jetcan every few minutes or aggro every single reinforcement wave, recall drones to drop their aggro then target since even aggressive drones don't aggro after all the rats r already shooting and to top it all off, fit enough of a tank to survive the entire pocket's aggro long enough for the drones to slowboat their way to every target? do u even know how fofs work? no u don't 'cause u don't know wtf u're talking about. and lmfao what a baby to be crying about clicking and dragging every few minutes...seriously... 4. try not talking out of your ass before u call someone else an idiot. seriously, u got anything that's even remotely convincing 'cause u're lucky i can't sig your entire post. --- It is not fair that a 20 man gang can kill at 200 gang. - Emo TJ
cBOLTSON Caldari Shadow Legion. Talos Coalition	Posted - 2010.04.21 10:02:00 - [58] Originally by: Furb Killer So you are against everything that doesnt directly benefit you? Serious wtf? (And this would vastly improve the pve experience). Btw i never got this sleepers instapopping drones. Granted i have done only a handful of wormholes, and no high level ones, but there when a t1 ogre got agro and was 30km away it still made it back to the drone bay usually. The drone agro was really reasonable. Now i am sure in some wormholes (harder ones?) the drone agro is much worse, but this only indicates that they can easily change the priority drones have for sleepers, which shouldnt be too high (but still it should sometimes happen, just within reasonable limits, no instapopping of drones, etc). What? When did I say im against everything that dosent directly benifit me? Right , changing the AI of rats to sleeper AI dosent change the nature of the pve experience, just the difficulty of the rats. What you have to do in said mission dosent change, you will still be saving the same boring damsel in distress yadda yadda. So it will be the same crappy mission script with harder drones. Why would I want that change? Like I have told you PERSONALLY I like pvp. Why would I want a change that would make the way I make income in game to do pvp harder and more time consuming than it allready is?
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.21 12:16:00 - [59] Quote: What? When did I say im against everything that dosent directly benifit me? You really implied that with your post. Quote: changing the AI of rats to sleeper AI dosent change the nature of the pve experience It does change it. Quote: just the difficulty of the rats. It doesnt (necesarily) change it. If the goal was just making the missions harder you can also double the dps dealt by each npc ship. ' Quote: Why would I want that change? Because npcs that do more than orbit and shoot would be nice. Quote: Why would I want a change that would make the way I make income in game to do pvp harder and more time consuming than it allready is? And why would that be the case? The idea is giving all npcs sleeper ai so they arent as completely mindless as they are now. Apparently you prefer afk mission running, since that is the only reason i can see why you prefer the ai in the current state. But PVE is an integral part of eve, and it shouldnt be a stupid grind it is with normal ai. So sleeper ai would make it way more fun and some other stuff more balanced. Nowhere it is said we should make them the equivalent of class 6 wormhole sleepers.
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2010.04.21 14:40:00 - [60] Edited by: Tonto Auri on 21/04/2010 14:44:31 This change, if implemeted, will make drone ships essentially useless. To clarify (and for that hyperactive commenter that seems to be posting in every topic): you can't recall drones when they have addro, because YOU DONT KNOW WHEN THEY HAVE AGGRO. You only know when they receive damage, and that's already late to recall them. However, adding a simple yellow(circle)/red(cross, for color-blind people) indicator in front of drone would make such change healthy. -- Thanks CCP for cu

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