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Marlona Sky
D00M.
RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2010.04.10 06:59:00 -
[1]
CCP said they would slowly implement this. When were they going to start??? It is time.
It would cut back on marco-missioners.
Make mission running more fun and interesting.
Balance the ISK/Hr ratio of high sec vs. 0.0
Seriously, what is the hold up on moving forward with this?
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Furb Killer
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Posted - 2010.04.10 08:00:00 -
[2]
If it would balance high sec vs 0.0 would entirely depends on rewards you get and for what risk.
It would at least help low sec mission running, becomes bit harder to gank a ship if it isnt purely tanked for 2 damage types and only one getting npc aggro.
Also will cause ninja salvager tears.
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2010.04.10 08:07:00 -
[3]
a) CCP don't like to spend development time on PvE and a lot of PvPers will protest if CCP was spending time there;
b) balancing them will require a noticeable effort, especially as testing missions on the Sisi server is almost useless;
c) if done for low level missions will simply kill new players;
d) making missions more interesting will increase the number of people sticking to them, reducing the number of players doing PvP and that is against CCP stated goals;
e) no CSM member care about missions so there is no one lobbyingfor them;
f) harder missions would require more time to farm isk for PvP, same thing for harder belt rats,
g) ecc. ecc.
Mission need to be brought up to date with the current ship capabilities, especially higher level missions, but apparently there is no interest on CCP part to do that.
tyrannis expansion would have been the right time to try this, reducing the number of ships and implementing a better AI instead of reducing the loot quantity for ship; the end result would be the same, less minerals from loot, but without the (probable) hassle to fly to a wreck to discover that the loot is only some unit of scrapmetal.
So, supported for the general idea of harder missions, with the caveat that the AI should be tweaked in a way that will not make drones useless in them.
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RootEmerger
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Posted - 2010.04.10 08:24:00 -
[4]
Dont think that sleepers AI is the panacea for all the mission problems - it's better than the P.O.S. in regular missions but not so better as it looks - most of the sleepers pwnage comes from the fact that they do damage to all resist (so you cant stack resists against their damage), resist all type of damage (so you cant damage them in their resist hole), do unbeliveable dps and tank and THEY CHEATS - bs that moves at 1km/sec with cruiser-like signature, neuts, scramblers and webs that hit you at 250km and so on...
That said, the intersting parts of sleepers AI (dynamic aggro, RR etc) would be nice - maybe with the "danger weight" toned down for drones as this would just kill gallente as missioners and make a pain in the ass killing frigates for everyone else...
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Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2010.04.10 08:51:00 -
[5]
Are you saying that CCP have implemented something with potential and then got distracted by the next shiny thing and not fully developed it? Unbelievable! :)
An AI upgrade for missions sounds good--not an exact copy of Sleeper AI, though. Making them less numbingly boring to run sounds good.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.04.10 09:06:00 -
[6]
The missions would need to be redesigned from scratch. Sleepers can be nasty enough in the small numbers the w-space waves have .. imagine a room with 50 of the things *shudder*
I think that is the main reason why CCP has put it on hold indefinitely, the amount of work is likely far greater than they first thought when they voiced their intentions in the first place.
ISK/Hr in Empire is now peanuts compared to what a developed null-sec system can provide so please don't use that argument, a change like this is more than justified by limiting the afk/macro mission runners as well as increase the market competition for salvage and minerals.
@CCP: Put some of the redundant people (you know you have them  ) to work on storyboards or whatever you use as the first steps in mission designs. Have everything ready for when the programmers have some free time
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Marlona Sky
D00M.
RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2010.04.10 09:15:00 -
[7]
I don't mean rats as hard as the ones found in wormholes but the same A.I. they use. Of course there would need to be balance and such depending on several factors but you get the idea.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2010.04.10 10:53:00 -
[8]
Speaking as someone who mainly uses a drone boat (Domi/Ishtar) for missions, this could be done very well, or very badly.
If the sleeper AI is toned down a little, so that it only attacks drones if the drone's controlling ship isn't attacking the sleepers or something similar, then it will be done well. Mainly because not just Gallente will suffer if drones become incredibly hard to use in missions, but everyone will have a much harder time dealing with Frigates, which are actually IMO the biggest threat in Level 4s.
However, I used an Ishtar to farm some Sleepers a while ago, and it was manageable, so I'm still in favour of this idea.
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RootEmerger
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Posted - 2010.04.10 12:06:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Bibbleibble
Speaking as someone who mainly uses a drone boat (Domi/Ishtar) for missions, this could be done very well, or very badly.
If the sleeper AI is toned down a little, so that it only attacks drones if the drone's controlling ship isn't attacking the sleepers or something similar, then it will be done well. Mainly because not just Gallente will suffer if drones become incredibly hard to use in missions, but everyone will have a much harder time dealing with Frigates, which are actually IMO the biggest threat in Level 4s.
However, I used an Ishtar to farm some Sleepers a while ago, and it was manageable, so I'm still in favour of this idea.
Sleepers dont actually target drone di per se, they weight the dps/tank rateo of every entity (and a flight of drone is considered a single entity) then target the more dangerous/easily destroyed entity - you can check this easily: warp two ships with high tank - lowish dps at 100km range from each other, then shut down some hardeners on one of the ships, sleepers will mostly target that and ignore the other, by alternating you can actually "ping pong tank" them.
So you have a dominix with huge tank and lowish dps and a flight of hobbos with paper-thin tank and (realative to their size) huge dps, its natural that sleepers will give more weight to the drones, if you have some heavier dps boat like a raven or such dones will be targeted a lot less.
Then there's to factor other things that change the "weight" of every entity, like ecm, time on grid (when a ship warp in generally get aggro even if its a bad target for sleepers) and so on.
The most intresting thing of this kind of AI is that you can adjust how all the various factor are weighted to give more "flavor" to a faction - lets say that Angels are more brash and "in your face" so they will give a lot more weight to pure dps, targeting the heaviest hitters before every else while Caldari will prefer to keep at range and pluck the easiest kills and so on - you can give lot of personality to those npc with just a few tweakings...
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.10 12:15:00 -
[10]
yes please
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Ogogov
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Posted - 2010.04.10 14:53:00 -
[11]
oh, right, because drones aren't worthless enough already with their slow damage delivery, awful AI and vulnerability to enemy fire. 
Go doing something like this and you'd better be supporting a hybrid buff.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.10 15:23:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ogogov
oh, right, because drones aren't worthless enough already with their slow damage delivery, awful AI and vulnerability to enemy fire.
Go doing something like this and you'd better be supporting a hybrid buff.
It will only nerf AFK domis, which is a good thing. people micro managing their drones can happily fight sleeper.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.04.10 17:55:00 -
[13]
Supported.
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Ahsekuaw
Brother Theo's Monastery
The Ancients.
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Posted - 2010.04.10 18:09:00 -
[14]
Supported for implementation on half the L3 missions and most of the L4 missions. The sleeper AI would be too tough for the new players in the L1 & L2 missions.
Ahs
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Ban Doga
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Posted - 2010.04.10 18:30:00 -
[15]
I guess sleeper AI will not make a change for solo mission runners.
If there's only one target there isn't much of a decision to be made - might make a difference for drone users tho.
But yeah, I'm all for keeping "promises"...
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Marlona Sky
D00M.
RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2010.04.10 20:31:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ogogov
Go doing something like this and you'd better be supporting a hybrid buff.
I'm in support of your hybrid buff. 
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:04:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Ogogov
Go doing something like this and you'd better be supporting a hybrid buff.
I'm in support of your hybrid buff.
You still didnt train lasers?:p
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profundus fossura
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:21:00 -
[18]
I think a more advanced A.I for npcs has a lot of possibilites, fighting fewer more intelligent NPC's may even make running L1/L2 missions for new players more engaging and would be a better learning experiance - prioritising targets, how to fit a ship to counter a particular threat etc. If the mission briefing provides sufficient intelligence.
Missions could also be made harder if done as a fleet - NPCs fight harder, reinforcements arrive sooner - non fleet players turning up could be seen as soft target as not supported making ninjaing harder.
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Jerid Verges
Gallente
The Society of Innovation
The Last Stand
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Posted - 2010.04.11 02:54:00 -
[19]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Ogogov
oh, right, because drones aren't worthless enough already with their slow damage delivery, awful AI and vulnerability to enemy fire.
Go doing something like this and you'd better be supporting a hybrid buff.
It will only nerf AFK domis, which is a good thing. people micro managing their drones can happily fight sleeper.
By Micromanaging you mean recalling them every other minute?
As a loving drone user
/not supported
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Lykouleon
Trust Doesn't Rust
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.04.11 05:17:00 -
[20]
Quote:
CCP Mindstar > Sorry - I've completely messed all that up. lets try again
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp.
Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.04.11 05:46:00 -
[21]
If this results in more carebear deaths it's worth it
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Sphit Ker
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Posted - 2010.04.11 06:41:00 -
[22]
I donĘt know that much about AI stuff but what I know is that empire rats are exactly 100% predictable.
I would just put back the cargohold to dronebay feature so the drone guys donĘt get left behind.
Also, Sleeper AI != Sleeper specs
If there is a will, there is a way.
Where is the will?
The following statement is not my signature.
The preceding statement is my signature. |
FunzzeR
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2010.04.11 06:42:00 -
[23]
Supported if it puts risk into missions again
PRAISE THE SCOTTISH FOLD!!
THEIR WILL SHALL BE DONE!! |
Marlona Sky
D00M.
RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2010.04.11 08:11:00 -
[24]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Ogogov
Go doing something like this and you'd better be supporting a hybrid buff.
I'm in support of your hybrid buff.
You still didnt train lasers?:p
I'm going projectiles. 
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.11 11:12:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jerid Verges
By Micromanaging you mean recalling them every other minute?
As a loving drone user
/not supported
yes micro managing means recalling drones when they got aggro. it also means picking group aggro wisely. it also means you got your turrets active on the domi all the time to keep the aggro on you. *gasps* domi user finally have to do something in missions. (no salvaing and looting dont count.)
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Irena To'lan
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Posted - 2010.04.11 11:19:00 -
[26]
Not supported.
Seriously, I'd like to use my Ishtar/Domi for missioning without constantly cycling drones.
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Zilberfrid
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Posted - 2010.04.11 13:56:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Zilberfrid on 11/04/2010 13:57:20
I propose the following:
In l1 and 2 missions, AI stays as it is
In l3 and 4 missions, AI for frigs and cruisers changes to sleeper AI. This will probably be harder, since those can actually hurt your drones, the BS are better off just shooting you.
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Marlona Sky
D00M.
RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2010.04.11 14:42:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Zilberfrid
Edited by: Zilberfrid on 11/04/2010 13:57:20
I propose the following:
In l1 and 2 missions, AI stays as it is
In l3 and 4 missions, AI for frigs and cruisers changes to sleeper AI. This will probably be harder, since those can actually hurt your drones, the BS are better off just shooting you.
I am pretty sure CCP said that they would slowly introduce it and I am sure this would be on a scaling level. CCP sounded serious about it and the EVE community seemed like it was ready to welcome it with open arms. What happened???
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licht dark
Anuran Origin
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Posted - 2010.04.11 17:07:00 -
[29]
maby a idea but how about a new type of agent?
this will have complete new mission with the sleeper A.I. in it.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.11 17:11:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Marlona Sky
I am pretty sure CCP said that they would slowly introduce it and I am sure this would be on a scaling level. CCP sounded serious about it and the EVE community seemed like it was ready to welcome it with open arms. What happened???
people noticed they cant (semi)afk mission anymore.
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