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Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.04.15 03:20:00 -
[61]
Confirming that Daisho Syndicate have agreed the proposal of terms provided by the Star Fraction leadership as of this evening. The proposal is now in front of the council of free captains and every member of the Star Fraction has the right to cast a vote on the issue. The vote began at 02:00 hours eve time and will last until 02:00 hours this coming weekend. (48 hours total). If a majority of Free Captains vote to accept the settlement then we will inform Daisho Syndicate leadership of the fact and return to mutual blue standings.
During the voting period we are still officially mutual red with Daisho and fighting continues while the decision is made.
True Knowledge |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.15 06:18:00 -
[62]
So let me get this correct: You still think daisho is standing enclosurism alliance and all the other euhm, interesting, stuff you said about them. However as long as they have you blue you dont care?
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Karn Mithralia
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.04.15 06:50:00 -
[63]
What you don't seem to understand is this - alliances are driven by goals that are (usually) in alignment with what they are capable of achieving and what they deem important.
So U'K won't attack another alliance just because one of its members mouths off about slavery in local, itĘs an utter waste of our resources. We may take that into account though as part of the big picture when considering our next course of action.
Similarly, nor would SF attack another entity purely because of how they run their space, because if they did they would have a never ending task that involved them attacking 90% of 0.0 space, a futile goal. Selective application of force where it makes a difference is the art of life.
ItĘs easy to criticise other people by picking small details and declaring therefore they don't act as they say they will, but guess what? No one cares. We make decisions based on what we see is the best course of action to achieve our ends, not based on some pathetic smear attempt on a public forum.
Such trivial complaints show nothing more than the complete lack of ability to grasp how large scale campaigns work, how alliance level politics work, and more how to actually achieve anything in life.
Your statements and mud throwing Furb Killer, and those like you achieve one thing - they show u for the petty small-minded ineffectual idiot you really are. If you want to change the way an alliance thinks it takes far more that small time stabs in the dark at perceived flaws of other peoples plans in action.
You can lift a pebble in a creek bed with ease but when dropped it simply returns to rest. Meanwhile IĘll climb a mountain, find a suitably poised boulder of many tons and apply the same force you used to lift that pebble to a well placed lever, and in doing so start a landslide to bury you and your pebble, changing the course of the creek in the process.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.15 09:24:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 15/04/2010 09:24:32
Now that is all interesting flaming, but you forget that this isnt about one pebble. This isnt about the hilarious reaction from SF about a reasonable request, it is about the other problems SF has with Daisho. I am sure you also have seen the leaked internal messages from SF, which clearly indicate they see Daisho as something as bad as CVA was in their opinion. Yet when they are back to blue all those OTHER problems suddenly are gone?
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Mirxa's Slave
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Posted - 2010.04.15 09:32:00 -
[65]
I think what amuses us, the combined former residents of Providence, is this:
As the campaign wore on, we heard all sorts of lofty and noble goals talked about. That New Providence residents would be free to behave how they wanted. That U'K wouldnt intervene in disputes to tell alliances what to do. That Providence really would be FreeSpace...
And then there's this little dispute, before the ashes have even cooled.
Compromises are made, U'K pilots talking loudly about everyone should try and be friends. I for one am delighted to see New Providence inching its way to the realisation:
It was the only way it could be
The shared KOS lists, mutual defence pacts, combined fleet forming. It was the only way to run a busy area on a NRDS basis. So here's to our forthcoming cultural victory, because a cultural victory over U'K and Star Fraction is very sweet indeed.
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.04.15 11:18:00 -
[66]
 Originally by: Mirxa's Slave
It was the only way it could be
The shared KOS lists, mutual defence pacts, combined fleet forming. It was the only way to run a busy area on a NRDS basis. So here's to our forthcoming cultural victory, because a cultural victory over U'K and Star Fraction is very sweet indeed.
Nonsense. There is no shared KOS list and there never will be one so far as the Star Fraction is concerned.
Mutual defence? I'm sorry, no-one in the Ushra'Khan or Star Fraction has ever complained about the principle of mutual defence against mutual hostiles, so there's no cultural 'victory' there.
Combined fleet forming? What on earth makes you think this is the special preserve of the CVA? Everyone in EVE combines fleets with their friends and allies from time to time for particular purposes. This is a matter of operational practicality, not a 'cultural victory'.
The mythology of the CVA that their way was the 'only way' is going to be proved wrong and oh how painful that is for them. Scuttle back to your masters, you loathesome creature.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Communications Portal |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.04.15 12:48:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Furb Killer
So let me get this correct: You still think daisho is standing enclosurism alliance and all the other euhm, interesting, stuff you said about them. However as long as they have you blue you dont care?
Your ability to painfully misinterpret the slightest word is almost an equal to Archbishop. Star Fraction has worked a potential diplomatic agreement with Daisho Syndicate. At the moment the Free Captains are voting on the issue.
Here are two specific differences from your CVA:
1. There is diplomatic negotiation on principles of in-space interaction here not "WE ARE THE CVA, WORSHIP US"
2. Our free captains get a vote. Creatures like you never did.
True Knowledge |
Mirxa's Slave
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Posted - 2010.04.15 15:54:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Mirxa''s Slave on 15/04/2010 15:54:15
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
Originally by: Mirxa's Slave
It was the only way it could be
The shared KOS lists, mutual defence pacts, combined fleet forming. It was the only way to run a busy area on a NRDS basis. So here's to our forthcoming cultural victory, because a cultural victory over U'K and Star Fraction is very sweet indeed.
Nonsense. There is no shared KOS list and there never will be one so far as the Star Fraction is concerned.
Mutual defence? I'm sorry, no-one in the Ushra'Khan or Star Fraction has ever complained about the principle of mutual defence against mutual hostiles, so there's no cultural 'victory' there.
Combined fleet forming? What on earth makes you think this is the special preserve of the CVA? Everyone in EVE combines fleets with their friends and allies from time to time for particular purposes. This is a matter of operational practicality, not a 'cultural victory'.
The mythology of the CVA that their way was the 'only way' is going to be proved wrong and oh how painful that is for them. Scuttle back to your masters, you loathesome creature.
The Cosmopolite
I don't what I'm going to enjoy the most: Watching each little compromise slowly turn you into that which you hate the most, or watching you rip yourselve apart trying to deny it's happening.
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Wotlankor
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.04.15 16:05:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Mirxa's Slave
I don't what I'm going to enjoy the most: Watching each little compromise slowly turn you into that which you hate the most, or watching you rip yourselve apart trying to deny it's happening.
Now all you need is Xina to back you up!
When she broadcasts it becomes reality. The very universe will conform to all your longings !
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Merdaneth
Amarr
Angel Wing.
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Posted - 2010.04.15 16:11:00 -
[70]
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
Nonsense. There is no shared KOS list and there never will be one so far as the Star Fraction is concerned.
That does not allay my suspicions. As I recall as far as Star Fraction was concerned they would never claim space as theirs, but here we are with the Fraction paying Concord for the privilige to 'own' their own part of space.
It is simply bad PR for your brand of Freespace movement to have a claim marker with the SF logo upon it broadcasting to all that visit that Star Fraction considers that particular part of space theirs. Even if you don't actually do anything to enforce the claim, appearances is what matters in politics. And to all appearances Star Fraction has turned into a space owning entity.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.04.15 16:39:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Merdaneth
appearances is what matters in politics. And to all appearances Star Fraction has turned into a space owning entity.
Lucky the Free Captains of the Star Fraction are not so knee-jerk reactionary on the issue of "appearances" then isn't it. Because the "appearance" you are portraying is that you skipped corp on PIE Inc. to avoid their wardecs and ongoing red status in an attempt to "game" our NRDS rules of engagement while continuing your campaign of anti-SF propaganda on the IGS.
Appearances are a funny thing.
True Knowledge |
Butter Dog
Gallente
The Littlest Hobos
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.04.15 19:16:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Mirxa's Slave
As the campaign wore on, we heard all sorts of lofty and noble goals talked about. That New Providence residents would be free to behave how they wanted. That U'K wouldnt intervene in disputes to tell alliances what to do.
And this is the case.
We in the Ushra'Khan respect the rights of Daisho and Star Fraction to set their standings as independent entities. We do indeed hope for a diplomatic solution, but that is clearly not the same thing as telling people what to do.
----------
~bitter dog~
etc |
claire xxx
Caldari
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.04.16 06:53:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Merdaneth
Even if you don't actually do anything to enforce the claim, appearances is what matters in politics. And to all appearances Star Fraction has turned into a space owning entity.
Fortunately actual facts trump suspicions and appearances.
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Merdaneth
Amarr
Angel Wing.
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Posted - 2010.04.16 07:06:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Merdaneth on 16/04/2010 07:06:16
Originally by: claire xxx
Originally by: Merdaneth
Even if you don't actually do anything to enforce the claim, appearances is what matters in politics. And to all appearances Star Fraction has turned into a space owning entity.
Fortunately actual facts trump suspicions and appearances.
Actually, the facts say that you claim space. It is now up to you to prove that your claim of space actually helps to further your freespace ideals. Until you do you will appear to have abandoned your freespace ideals.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Tekumze Wolf
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.04.16 08:42:00 -
[75]
Merdaneth your definition of space owning alliance comes from space owning alliances. As such it assumes things that are normal for space owning alliances.
If you even tried to consider what a non space owning alliance has to do to improve space then you would realize that some steps are needed because of game mechanics and not because we want to own space.
To make it short. We don't own the space. We own the structures in it because we need to to improve the space. If a neutral comes in it he's welcome to use the space for anything he likes to do including putting up POS structures and/or ratting and mining.
Obviously he would have to be able to defend himself against NBSI entities that regularly come and visit the place same as we do.
He would also be free to negotiate non aggression pacts with those aggressive entities to make his stay in the area a peaceful one.
Star Fraction could of easily have somebody else improve space for them but I guess we didn't decide on it just to make sure that people like you don't jump the gun and declare us a space owning alliance. Your misinterpretations are your own. We don't feel the need to make it easier for you to avoid them.
It's easy to find out what we are and how we consider the space we're in. Anybody that is neutral to us can come and will find that flying among us is as safe as flying in empire space (if you watch out for those that wardecced you)
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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2010.04.16 09:36:00 -
[76]
The definition of a space-owning alliance is pretty simple: it's an alliance that owns space.
If your alliance owns space, it's a space-owning alliance.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Tekumze Wolf
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.04.16 10:13:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Tekumze Wolf on 16/04/2010 10:14:17
I guess you chose to misinterpret things as well.
Just to entertain your misinterpretation I'll assume you're talking about the sovereignty "flag". Basically you're saying we own space because concord says so.
It's pretty much like if I went on to a field and planted my flag because I need a goal post to play a game.
Somebody sees the flag and decides that I own the field. You come along and chose to believe what he says and disregard me saying that it's not my field and you can come play as well.
As I said in the previous post. Your misinterpretations are your own. You decide who you believe.
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.04.16 10:16:00 -
[78]
We don't claim the space of the system where we administer infrastructure. We don't own space and in any event we regard the concept of 'owning' space to be nonsensical.
We own and claim sovereignty over the core infrastructure in the system in question. That is all.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Communications Portal |
Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2010.04.16 10:16:00 -
[79]
No, I'm saying that you own space because you've made a claim of ownership on some space and the claim has subsequently been accepted.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Tekumze Wolf
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.04.16 10:28:00 -
[80]
We never claimed ownership. We just put up a structure that enables us to improve space.
If that structure means that some alliance/corp think of us as if we claimed the space then that is their problem.
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.04.16 10:29:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
No, I'm saying that you own space because you've made a claim of ownership on some space and the claim has subsequently been accepted.
Quite wrong. We have made no claim of ownership on any space, only on core infrastructure.
By the way, I know what your next semantic move will be: you're going to play word games with the TCU. I have to tell you we don't care what CONCORD happen to call a particular item of infrastructure. We use it for the sole purpose of being able to place and administer core infrastructure. That is its purpose for us. We don't extend a claim to the space of the system.
And we won't be forced into extending a claim by anyone, least of all you.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Communications Portal |
Xina Tutor
Amarr
Black Arrows
Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.04.16 10:33:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Tekumze Wolf
Merdaneth your definition of space owning alliance comes from space owning alliances. As such it assumes things that are normal for space owning alliances.
If you even tried to consider what a non space owning alliance has to do to improve space then you would realize that some steps are needed because of game mechanics and not because we want to own space.
To make it short. We don't own the space. We own the structures in it because we need to to improve the space. If a neutral comes in it he's welcome to use the space for anything he likes to do including putting up POS structures and/or ratting and mining.
Obviously he would have to be able to defend himself against NBSI entities that regularly come and visit the place same as we do.
He would also be free to negotiate non aggression pacts with those aggressive entities to make his stay in the area a peaceful one.
Star Fraction could of easily have somebody else improve space for them but I guess we didn't decide on it just to make sure that people like you don't jump the gun and declare us a space owning alliance. Your misinterpretations are your own. We don't feel the need to make it easier for you to avoid them.
It's easy to find out what we are and how we consider the space we're in. Anybody that is neutral to us can come and will find that flying among us is as safe as flying in empire space (if you watch out for those that wardecced you)
This all seems very very familiar somehow.. heh
You will find you will need to admin the tower thing a bit. Your own pilots will want access as well and will feel disadvantaged if you allow outsiders first choice. It is only fair after all.
but other than that you are following in our footsteps quite well :)
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Tekumze Wolf
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.04.16 10:37:00 -
[83]
There's nothing to admin. First come first serve. We consider all others to be equal in terms of their choices in that space as long as they treat us as we treat them.
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Xina Tutor
Amarr
Black Arrows
Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.04.16 10:41:00 -
[84]
Star Fraction, redefining the dictionary since... Well.. always. :)
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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2010.04.16 10:44:00 -
[85]
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
Originally by: Rodj Blake
No, I'm saying that you own space because you've made a claim of ownership on some space and the claim has subsequently been accepted.
Quite wrong. We have made no claim of ownership on any space, only on core infrastructure.
By the way, I know what your next semantic move will be: you're going to play word games with the TCU. I have to tell you we don't care what CONCORD happen to call a particular item of infrastructure. We use it for the sole purpose of being able to place and administer core infrastructure. That is its purpose for us. We don't extend a claim to the space of the system.
And we won't be forced into extending a claim by anyone, least of all you.
The Cosmopolite
Excuse me Cosmo, but it's you that's trying to play games with semantics by attempting to unilaterally redefine the meaning of sovereignty.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Xina Tutor
Amarr
Black Arrows
Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.04.16 10:52:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Tekumze Wolf
There's nothing to admin. First come first serve. We consider all others to be equal in terms of their choices in that space as long as they treat us as we treat them.
Yep. That is a nice little fairy tale which might workl for a while. But should the area become popular. Well. I will leave it for you to find out.
Good luck :)
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.04.16 10:54:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Excuse me Cosmo, but it's you that's trying to play games with semantics by attempting to unilaterally redefine the meaning of sovereignty.
We've made the distinction between a political claim of sovereignty over space and the technical sovereignty over infrastructure for a very long time.
The two must be different because capsuleer alliances were claiming political sovereignty over space long, long before technological developments made infrastructure possible and CONCORD deigned to recognise capsuleer power in the Outer Worlds.
You want to conflate the two for your own purposes here, that is understood and expected.
I don't see why people should accept it.
To repeat, ownership implies a claim is being pressed on a piece of property.
We don't regard space as property.
We don't press a claim on space.
We don't own any space.
It's as simple as that. No amount of your trying to foist 'ownership' of space onto us is going to change the fact that we do not recognise that we own the space in the system where we administer infrastructure.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Communications Portal |
Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2010.04.16 11:02:00 -
[88]
Originally by: The Amarrian Heritage Dictionary
sov+er+eign+ty (sŏv'ər-ĭn-tē, sŏv'rĭn-)
n. pl. sov+er+eign+ties
1. Supremacy of authority or rule as exercised by a sovereign or sovereign state.
2. Royal rank, authority, or power.
3. Complete independence and self-government.
4. A territory existing as an independent state.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Dame Death
Minmatar
Trust Doesn't Rust
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.04.16 11:12:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Dame Death on 16/04/2010 11:12:24
Right first off these are my views alone and do not repsent those of my corp or allinace in any way.
Now thats out the way.
Sf have deployed a TCU I point to the second letter the C for Claim.
So no matter what they say they have claimed space end of.
Logs of a Brutor |
Xina Tutor
Amarr
Black Arrows
Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.04.16 11:14:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Xina Tutor
Originally by: Tekumze Wolf
There's nothing to admin. First come first serve. We consider all others to be equal in terms of their choices in that space as long as they treat us as we treat them.
Yep. That is a nice little fairy tale which might workl for a while. But should the area become popular. Well. I will leave it for you to find out.
Good luck :)
And of course... heh... after a moment's thought. Well it's not actually likely to ever be a very popular or safe place for anyone other than Star Fraction to put towers in YWSO (as they can more easily defend them). So perhaps you are right. Little administration needed.
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