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Start with Learning Skills at 4/3

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Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.05.07 01:28:00 - [1] Originally by: Boshell I've been trying desperately to get my friends into the game, but it is very difficult when I have to explain to them that their first week must be devoted to learning skills, during which character progression is simply non-existant. You don't have to train them. If they offer no character progression then why would you ever train them. Don't blame the game when it is your own misinformation which keeps people out. - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.05.07 01:41:00 - [2] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 07/05/2010 01:45:18 Originally by: Boshell Because sitting around learning skills that increase the rate at which you learn skills for the first week of your gameplay is so super exciting! You should work in public relations. >_> You should learn to read. Originally by: Amaurotique having the chance to say no to the 1.6 million SP 100% bonus in exchange for getting those 4/3 learning skills (which comes nowhere near 1.6m SP, meaning you'd lose a ton of bonus time but gain a ton of playing time) is perfect. You wouldn't be "giving away" anything, you'd be offering a solid choice for new players. They already have a choice. Train the skills straight away or don't. And the choice you are quoting is actually exactly the same choice - choosing whether to start with extra 'general' SP or the learning skills is the same as choosing whether to spend the first week on extra 'general' SP or the learning skills. - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.05.07 01:58:00 - [3] After randomly wandering into this thread I have finally actually read the OP. Originally by: stoicfaux Problem a) Eve is a pew-pew internet spaceship sandbox game. b) The Learning skills are boring. No skill is more or less boring than any other, all are simply timers. No skills require you to sit still and do nothing to raise them. Originally by: stoicfaux c) Boring makes for a bad Newbie First Experience. d) Unfortunately, learning skills have such a large impact on skill training time that it is "stupid" not to learn them first. As pointed out by Ravenal in this post, implants and learning skills can allow you train at 4x (!!!) the base rate, a boost that is too hard to ignore. The objective of the game is not to minmax. The learning skills are not mandatory. You say it is stupid not to train them, while advocating that people bore themselves to the point of leaving the game to get them trained. Between the guy with the inefficient training plan and the guy who bored himself out of a game, guess which one is actually more stupid. Originally by: stoicfaux Proposal Allow new characters to start with the basic learning skills at level 4 and the advanced learning skills at level 3. This would remove the "need" for newbies to spend their few moments of Eve on training learning skills. It would still allow players the option to invest in the time to further improve their training skills to 5/5. The learning skillbooks cost 25 million isk, which is a considerable sum for a newbie. What's more fun, buying skillbooks or ships? Predicated on a fictional requirement to learn these skills first. Originally by: stoicfaux Issues Not fair to anyone who already trained learning skills There are a couple of possibilities: a) Tough! "Your online experience may change." Older players will have to suck it up. b) Skill Credit. Credit older players the skill points. This could be done via accelerated skill training such as how new characters get a training boost. c) TBD. The 4/3 learning skills could be implemented now and a skill credit solution can be determined later since the information is in the database. a) is sufficient. There is no skills race. People who think there is are as bad as the people who train learning skills day one. Originally by: stoicfaux But... Patience and Discipline are Virtues - Why are we dumbing down, WoW-ifying, pandering to instant gratification crowd, etc.? For the simple reason that learning skills are boring and the boost they provide is too large to ignore. For the simple reason that people are more willing to pay $$ to mine, build, and/or shoot than they are to sit on their thumbs waiting for learning skills to finish. For the simple reason that "mandatory" learning skills annoys those who are Alt-aholics. Your alt winds up spending a lot of the 1.6 million accelerated training boost on learning skills than on your industry or faction warfare skills. - All skills are boring if all you do is watch them count down. - As stated above, no skills require you to sit on your ass to train them. - There are a lot of genuinely mandatory skills in any field - why not start by removing them? Originally by: stoicfaux Why not just give everyone Frigates V while we're at it? Each level of the frigates skill provides access to new ships and abilities. This is exciting, especially since it opens up new weapons and fittings to train for. Each level of a training skills allows you to train the next level of training skill that much faster. Zzzzzzzzz... So we are now going to remove all skills which do not give access to new items? Learning skills are fine. Some people these days don't like to have to make choices, others will do whatever they are told by others to the point of driving themselves out of the game? Too bad. - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.05.07 02:02:00 - [4] Originally by: Boshell lolwut? So you are saying there is no difference between A) spending 1-2 weeks doing nothing but training learning skills B) opting to lose a portion of your bonus SP to start with those learning skills on day 1 so you can immediately start having fun doing other stuff? Really? Option A loses you general SP in your first days to get the learning skills early. Option B loses you general SP in your first days to get the learning skills early. Quote: you can immediately start having fun doing other stuff The learning skills are not a prerequisite to acquire 'fun'. - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.05.07 02:24:00 - [5] Originally by: Boshell Option A gains you more bonus time at the cost of real time. If you opt to use the bonus on learning skills, you can get them far higher. Perfect for alt sellers on char bazaar Option B loses you general SP in your first days but gains you real time. You lose a good portion of your bonus SP, but instantly gain your learning skills and can IMMEDIATELY begin training something else. The choices are so similar that there isn't even a real choice here. Bonus time is merely bonus SP distributed over time. The option to start with the learning skills done is immediate bonus SP. Assuming you are going to start by attaining the learning skills one way or another, both options are exactly the same, except in the details of exactly how many SP you end up with - both offer a portion of the learning skills as bonus SP. So the real choice remains whether to start with the learning skills or not. - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.05.07 02:38:00 - [6] Originally by: Tarik Ordway While it's true that if he trained learning skills, he could get all of those requirements within 6-7 days, less than half. But that'd be multiple days wasted of doing nothing. So let me get this straight - you are saying that by using the learning skills to reduce the total time to get something he is wasting time? I'm not clear on what you are getting at here. Originally by: Tarik Ordway I think it's a grand idea to have a friend shoot for a larger ship first, then wait even LONGER to catch up to me. If his objective is to fly a ship early on and not to participate in some imaginary race, it probably would be a good idea. Originally by: Tarik Ordway Again, you're blatantly ignoring the amount of time it takes too train these skills, and how long of a wait there is. What does the absolute amount of time involved have to do with anything? Originally by: Tarik Ordway A lot of skills are mandatory, but all of those skills give a benefit to you in some way. Last I checked, Learning doesn't help you shoot any faster. Nor does it allow you to soak anymore damage. Again, if learning skills don't offer a benefit, simply never train them. Originally by: Tarik Ordway Learning skills are redundant. They don't serve to do anything in the game aside give older players something to whine about. See above. - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.05.07 02:52:00 - [7] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 07/05/2010 02:53:42 Originally by: Amaurotique Both options involve sacrificing instant gratification to enhance the learning skills, as the both involve giving over the bonus time to the learning skills. Granted, with option B you do get to start training other stuff straight away - but at a slower rate than if you ignored the learning skills completely and used your bonus time on other stuff. I have a feeling that the specifics of the numbers may make one of these options redundant anyway, since the lowest levels of the learning skills make it quicker to get into your first cruiser or whatever, rather than slower, and since the instant gain of learning skills offsets the loss of bonus time somewhat. Originally by: Tarik Ordway If you're so adamant about learning skills being something of choice, why not create a new alt with no intention too train learning skills at all. Just intend to enjoy the game and don't bother with them. See how long it takes for you to get into something reasonable. That's how I developed my main. I (almost) never trained learning skills unless they reduced the time for the very next thing I was going for. - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ

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