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Tengu or Golem for L4?

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Nova Sand	Posted - 2010.04.26 06:51:00 - [1] I am mainly flying a CNR atm doing L4. Training drone skills till i can use T2 drones. Now i have good shield skills and missile skills but have no HAM or Torps skills. I have cruise missile 4 and heavy missiles 5. I am torn between a tengu and a Golem. Reading through the forums have suggested while the tengu cant salvage while missioning, it earns as much as a Golem would. Next comes the patch where meta 0 items drop rate would be nerfed but i dun expect it to affect the income on missioning with a Golem alot. Now the tengu is more easy to train to providing i dun have to train HAM while using heavy missiles. However i am not sure if heavy missiles are suitable for the tengu since i have seen more build using HAM's then heavies. Also, i am not comfortable with the fact that you cant use drones on a tengu since i am training up my drone skills and it would be a terrible waste if i cant use drones. But the tengu is faster and can travel to gates faster. The golem is the legendary missioning ship but takes alot longer to skill for and most ppl use torps which have a short range and need target painters. Isit ok to use cruise missiles on golem? And isit worth the wait over a tengu? Bs ships are slow too and takes very long to travel gates. Now i am just trying to get answers on which direction i should train for. Any input would help greatly. Would be very nice if someone who had actually pilot both ships give their ideas.
Diraus Omega	Posted - 2010.04.26 08:43:00 - [2] I use a tengu for a ratting ship are with hams they are amazing ships just rip though any thing. but you lose about 170 dps putting heavy missiles on it compared to hams. though is you doing a lot of missions with the rats 70-80+ kms away from each other heavys would probably be better. as for the Golem never used one personally but while you can use it with cruise missiles its a waste of bonus's it most peoples opinions. you don't need the extra range for the cruise missiles and i think the tp bonus is wasted some what as well. plus if your planning on salvaging you need to be within torp range anyway.
RentableMuffin	Posted - 2010.04.26 08:51:00 - [3] tbh I'd probably just stick with the cnr. if you run (or want to run) the enemies abound chain get a golem so you can loot as you go. for general missioning: I'd hold off on buying a golem till after the patch, see exactly what the tags + random crap drops are. and yes the cruise golem works, but imo the optimal setup is with torps. although the setup is pretty much identical except for the launchers. 2x velocity rigs make cruise fast enough that there has to be a pretty large range before defenders can catch up increasing dps. add in the painter bonus and you don't really need the rigors anyways. I'm having trouble thinking of a mission where the tengu would be better than one of the other ships. Maybe for blitzing worlds collide. but the torp golem with 2 tp + ab + 4 slot tank should be very proficient in that. basically I wouldn't buy a tengu for level 4s. great plexing/wh ship though.
Daft Bugger	Posted - 2010.04.26 12:02:00 - [4] Quote: as for the Golem never used one personally but while you can use it with cruise missiles its a waste of bonus's it most peoples opinions. you don't need the extra range for the cruise missiles and i think the tp bonus is wasted some what as well. Maybe you should fit one and then you can have a personal opinion instead of listening to other ppl that don't know how to fit the golem..cruise lol gtfo!!! Golems for lvl4 rock imo. Admittingly you have to be highly skilled in that field. As for the wasted bonus's??? The bonus's imo is very much aimed at making torps useful on a golem!!! T2 Torp Golem rocks and 3 tractor beams makes salvaging easy Tengu.. Never flow one
Trebor Whettam	Posted - 2010.04.26 13:14:00 - [5] Neither of the ships you propose are really upgrades to a properly fit CNR. The Tengu will be faster in some missions, but it's really a playing-style choice (for people who need to do something other than sit at the warp-in and spam F1). The cruise golem does less theoretical dps than your CNR, and doesn't get much out of its bonuses. It will make up the difference with its cheap ammo and salvaging ability, but it doesn't get the most out of that, since you'll have to pop a lot of battleships outside 40km to get good times. The torp golem is where it's at, but don't skimp on the support skills. In addition to the proper prereqs, you'll also need the following skills: torps 5, missile bombardment 5, missile projection 5, signature focusing 4, and missile launcher rigging 4. You want all the range you can squeeze out of it, which means T2 range rigs and a ZML implant (preferably +5).
triafrenum	Posted - 2010.04.26 13:49:00 - [6] I would suggest sticking with your cnr or getting a golem. The tengu is a blitzing machine like the cnr but its crazy high rate of fire has a downside. Unless you are very very careful you will waste a LOT of volleys on rats 30+ km away. It gets very annoying having to babysit every single mission.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.04.26 14:16:00 - [7] Edited by: Mendolus on 26/04/2010 14:19:21 I was a skeptic concerning the Tengu for L4s, but after having tried it I'm fairly pleased to say that it's performance is on par with a Golem, as I fly Golem too. However, it all comes down to preference IMO. The Tengu goes through missiles like kleenex, while in the Golem it takes ages to go through a few thousand torps or cruise. I have tried both torps and cruise Golem, and I can say that while the torp Golem is obviously better, the waiting game for rats to come under 60km is annoying after a time, and when I have to use javelins 90% of the time in Amarr missions where I do L4s a majority of the time, I might as well use a cruise Golem which tops off with about the same DPS but much greater range. But the Tengu... well it's a beauty, but you really gotta invest in it if you want it to basically AFK the missions, talking LG or HG implants, a plex booster, etc. Before the Golem price drop, this would all cost you less than a Golem build, but with the 300MIL drop, it's about the same give or take. I'd suggest Tengu if you're willing to max out shield, missile, and subsystem skills, cuz that's when it really meets and greets a Golem's capacity to clear missions. Otherwise the DPS is just sloppy and the tank has too many holes, even with an AB. Otherwise, stick with the suggested ideas from others above that you simply continue to use your CNR as it is about the same in the end, give or take nuances here and there. {...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness}
RentableMuffin	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:15:00 - [8] Originally by: triafrenum I would suggest sticking with your cnr or getting a golem. The tengu is a blitzing machine like the cnr but its crazy high rate of fire has a downside. Unless you are very very careful you will waste a LOT of volleys on rats 30+ km away. It gets very annoying having to babysit every single mission. for most missions the cnr is the best blitz boat (well at least out of the cnr/golem/tengu) the golem is the next best one the only mission I can think of where gate travel time is really a factor anymore is worlds collide. and as I said above I think a cruise + ab golem would give the tengu a good run.
demonfurbie Minmatar Covert-Nexus	Posted - 2010.04.27 04:53:00 - [9] if your training an alt you can get into a tengu and fo well alot faster than a golem personally i like a tengu
Nova Sand	Posted - 2010.04.27 05:05:00 - [10] So to my conclusion is a CNR can make as much isk an hour as a golem can? And bout missile and shield support skills i have them all maxed out. Just waiting for cruise 5 now. Am i on the right path of thinking?

Kadoes Khan	Posted - 2010.04.27 05:25:00 - [11] Edited by: Kadoes Khan on 27/04/2010 05:29:45 The Golem will achieve the highest ISK/hr on it's own. This is due to it's extra highs for tractor/salvage and large cargo, it can effectively do all the looting and salvaging all while killing the rats. The CNR does have higher DPS though which makes it better for blitzing through missions. Keep in mind that using cruises reduces your DPS VERY significantly and is not worthwhile even on a CNR unless you don't have the skills for torps. --
Diraus Omega	Posted - 2010.04.27 08:52:00 - [12] Originally by: Daft Bugger Maybe you should fit one and then you can have a personal opinion instead of listening to other ppl that don't know how to fit the golem..cruise lol gtfo!!! Golems for lvl4 rock imo. Admittingly you have to be highly skilled in that field. As for the wasted bonus's??? The bonus's imo is very much aimed at making torps useful on a golem!!! T2 Torp Golem rocks and 3 tractor beams makes salvaging easy Tengu.. Never flow one what the hell are you on first off you tell me not to talk about a golem cause i've never flown one then you basically agree with what I say stfu and read peoples posts, you don't need to have flown a ship to have an opinion on how it flys. but my guess is you didn't read my post your just a troller looking for some attention.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.04.27 14:19:00 - [13] Edited by: Mendolus on 27/04/2010 14:20:36 Originally by: Kadoes Khan Edited by: Kadoes Khan on 27/04/2010 05:29:45 The Golem will achieve the highest ISK/hr on it's own. This is due to it's extra highs for tractor/salvage and large cargo, it can effectively do all the looting and salvaging all while killing the rats. The CNR does have higher DPS though which makes it better for blitzing through missions. Keep in mind that using cruises reduces your DPS VERY significantly and is not worthwhile even on a CNR unless you don't have the skills for torps. Bear in mind this depends largely on the faction that you are up against on average. I found that a lot of Sansha missions it was too much of a hassle to use torps on my Golem because not only did the rats spawn at 40-75km a good deal of the time, but a good deal of the battleships especially liked to orbit just barely out of faction torp range so I was left with using javelins 75% of the time anyways, which is mostly on par with cruise DPS. I would never have paid any mind to this in my Nighthawk until I put together a torp Golem at the beginning of the year and ran out of Sansha space, and was frustrated at the range issues. {...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness}
Trebor Whettam	Posted - 2010.04.27 17:04:00 - [14] Edited by: Trebor Whettam on 27/04/2010 17:05:30 Edited by: Trebor Whettam on 27/04/2010 17:05:05 Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 27/04/2010 14:20:36 Originally by: Kadoes Khan Edited by: Kadoes Khan on 27/04/2010 05:29:45 The Golem will achieve the highest ISK/hr on it's own. This is due to it's extra highs for tractor/salvage and large cargo, it can effectively do all the looting and salvaging all while killing the rats. The CNR does have higher DPS though which makes it better for blitzing through missions. Keep in mind that using cruises reduces your DPS VERY significantly and is not worthwhile even on a CNR unless you don't have the skills for torps. Bear in mind this depends largely on the faction that you are up against on average. I found that a lot of Sansha missions it was too much of a hassle to use torps on my Golem because not only did the rats spawn at 40-75km a good deal of the time, but a good deal of the battleships especially liked to orbit just barely out of faction torp range so I was left with using javelins 75% of the time anyways, which is mostly on par with cruise DPS. I would never have paid any mind to this in my Nighthawk until I put together a torp Golem at the beginning of the year and ran out of Sansha space, and was frustrated at the range issues. Also don't forget that you're allowed to own more than one mission ship. :) A torp golem dominates some Sansha missions (Vengeance for sure), in others it's less effective. It's good mainly because the missions it dominates tend to be the most profitable. It probably can't be said enough, however, how important it is to max out the range. Anything less will lead to (even more) frustration.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.04.27 17:15:00 - [15] Originally by: Trebor Whettam Edited by: Trebor Whettam on 27/04/2010 17:05:30 Edited by: Trebor Whettam on 27/04/2010 17:05:05 Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 27/04/2010 14:20:36 Originally by: Kadoes Khan Edited by: Kadoes Khan on 27/04/2010 05:29:45 The Golem will achieve the highest ISK/hr on it's own. This is due to it's extra highs for tractor/salvage and large cargo, it can effectively do all the looting and salvaging all while killing the rats. The CNR does have higher DPS though which makes it better for blitzing through missions. Keep in mind that using cruises reduces your DPS VERY significantly and is not worthwhile even on a CNR unless you don't have the skills for torps. Bear in mind this depends largely on the faction that you are up against on average. I found that a lot of Sansha missions it was too much of a hassle to use torps on my Golem because not only did the rats spawn at 40-75km a good deal of the time, but a good deal of the battleships especially liked to orbit just barely out of faction torp range so I was left with using javelins 75% of the time anyways, which is mostly on par with cruise DPS. I would never have paid any mind to this in my Nighthawk until I put together a torp Golem at the beginning of the year and ran out of Sansha space, and was frustrated at the range issues. Also don't forget that you're allowed to own more than one mission ship. :) A torp golem dominates some Sansha missions (Vengeance for sure), in others it's less effective. It's good mainly because the missions it dominates tend to be the most profitable. It probably can't be said enough, however, how important it is to max out the range. Anything less will lead to (even more) frustration. Yea, granted, but for those who cannot afford the luxury of having a slew of ships laying around waiting to be utilized, I'd say it's good to realize the limitations you may face, even with mostly maxed range skills. If I had T2 Cruise I woulda just gone CNR and left the T2 Siege on the Golem, but I didn't, so I did not feel like fitting 7x CNLs on a CNR that already cost 500-600MIL. Cheaper to just re-rig the Golem and slap 4x CNLs on it while I consider alternative builds for ships to fill in the gaps (got a Tengu now that will replace cruise boats, so I can refit Golem with Torps for missions like Vengeance). So yes, you are correct, but people should still of course, know the limitations of the ships they fly. Save buying a char, no one starts off with maxed skills after all, {...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness}
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.04.27 17:50:00 - [16] A HML Tengu with an Accel II rig and Rigor rig (or maybe 2xFlares in place of the Rigor) has about the same missile firepower as a CNR. Conventional Wisdom That I've Seen: A torp Golem should earn more isk due to being able to salvage and loot on the run. A CNR can earn more by blitzing for lp (if you have a good agent and the right loyalty store.) A Tengu should also be good for blitzing. You can stick a salvager on a Tengu (use the shield resist module) to increase isk during the mission. Swapping between the torp Golem and the cruise CNR depending on the mission is a really swell idea. If you're running missions for the Navy and/or have a low quality agent, go with the Golem (cruise or torp) and loot/salvage due to the Navy's so-so lp store. However, with the Tryannis changes to loot and to insurance prices, all bets are off for the Golem. ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Daft Bugger	Posted - 2010.04.27 21:06:00 - [17] Originally by: Diraus Omega you basically agree with what I say Ok where do i basically agree with you??? You said that the bonus's on the golem are wasted. i pointed out that they are not wasted Originally by: Diraus Omega stfu and read peoples posts, you don't need to have flown a ship to have an opinion on how it flys. but my guess is you didn't read my post your just a troller looking for some attention. I think you are writing about yourself here stupid troller Oh yeah btw LOOK AT ME I NEED ATTENTION
Higgs Foton hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.04.27 22:04:00 - [18] Edited by: Higgs Foton on 27/04/2010 22:05:01 I have flown lvl 4's with both a CNR and a Tengu, and in general i like the tengu better because its tank is better, and you can sig/speed tank more with an afterburner. There are some downsides though. The Tengu (as most Caldari ships) have a kinetic bonus. With Caldari assault thingy T3 skill on lvl V you get a 25% damage bonus on only kinetic missiles, which makes the Tengu highly effective against Guristas and Caldari Navy, and other suckers with a weakness for kinetic. Flying against Angel Cartel for instance is a lot slower, because they tank kinetic well, and with explosive missiles, you sure do 25% damage less. And your tank will be crappier because of natural resists against Angels not really as good as against guristas or serpentis. Tengu is also easier to use, because fit with an target painter, you can also easily dispatch of the frigs, while you would have to use drones when flying with CNR/Golem. CNR gives the same overal damage output if you use the right cruise missiles against different rats, making it an good allround ship for missions. Just swap out hardeners and ammo, and you are good to go against any lvl4 in game, while the tengu only shines against specific rats. Nowadays i use one tengu i have for ratting. Against guristas beltrats it is imho the best ratting ship. Its fast, its agile, its puts out great dps, and it can kill any shiptype easily with a targetpainter to kill off the NPC assault frigs. ___________________________________ http://www.myspace.com/higgsphoton Higgs Foton on Myspace! Click to hear tunes!
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.04.27 22:30:00 - [19] Originally by: stoicfaux However, with the Tryannis changes to loot and to insurance prices, all bets are off for the Golem. The Golem is still faster than the CNR in certain missions, and will always be better in drone missions. But yeah... I expect the patch to be a massive marauder nerf - but it still won't change the story for the Tengu. Hey can you guys make my Loki, Proteus, and Legion don't suck for L4s btw? :) -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Diraus Omega	Posted - 2010.04.28 01:03:00 - [20] Edited by: Diraus Omega on 28/04/2010 01:04:14 Originally by: Daft Bugger Ok where do i basically agree with you??? You said that the bonus's on the golem are wasted. i pointed out that they are not wasted lol read the full post moron I point out there some what wasted when using cruise missiles not torps which in my opinion they are. unless your saying the bonuses I mentioned in my post aren't wasted on a cruise missile golem? Quote: I think you are writing about yourself here stupid troller Oh yeah btw LOOK AT ME I NEED ATTENTION I know you need attention thats why you jump down on people when they make the same point as you. once again read my post Quote: but while you can use it with cruise missiles its a waste of bonus's it most peoples opinions. you don't need the extra range for the cruise missiles and i think the tp bonus is wasted some what as well. see what I did there pointed out the some what wasted golem bonuses when using cruise missiles

Kadoes Khan	Posted - 2010.04.28 04:33:00 - [21] Quote: A HML Tengu with an Accel II rig and Rigor rig (or maybe 2xFlares in place of the Rigor) has about the same missile firepower as a CNR. Hmmm could you elaborate on this fit a bit? Admittedly I'm not too knowledgeable about the T3 ships but I have yet to see one approach the 1200+ DPS of a CNR. --
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.04.28 13:57:00 - [22] Originally by: Kadoes Khan Edited by: Kadoes Khan on 28/04/2010 04:39:42 Quote: A HML Tengu with an Accel II rig and Rigor rig (or maybe 2xFlares in place of the Rigor) has about the same missile firepower as a CNR. Hmmm could you elaborate on this fit a bit? Admittedly I'm not too knowledgeable about the T3 ships but I have yet to see one approach the 1200+ DPS of a CNR. Typically even with HAMs + 3 CN BCU's I only get to maybe 700 and that's 2/3 of a cruise CNR and barely over half of a torp CNR. I will also point out that not using torps will result in defender missiles taking out a large portion of your DPS, this is why torps are usually far superior as they deliver more raw firepower in addition to avoiding dps loss due to defenders. http://eve-search.com/thread/1300604 A HML II Tengu with an Accel II rig has the mostly equivalent missile firepower as a CNR's cruise missiles. Details and comments (such as drone DPS) are in the thread. Torps are a completely different issue, especially on a CNR. HAMs on a Tengu get dinged for their short range. Not only does it take time to AB into range, but if you're too close to an NPC, the NPC will accelerate to try to get into its orbit range. Target velocity decreases missile damage, so not only are you losing time to get into range, you risk reduced missile damage by using HAMs. ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Kadoes Khan	Posted - 2010.04.28 21:48:00 - [23] Edited by: Kadoes Khan on 28/04/2010 21:49:09 Originally by: stoicfaux http://eve-search.com/thread/1300604 A HML II Tengu with an Accel II rig has the mostly equivalent missile firepower as a CNR's cruise missiles. Details and comments (such as drone DPS) are in the thread. Torps are a completely different issue, especially on a CNR. HAMs on a Tengu get dinged for their short range. Not only does it take time to AB into range, but if you're too close to an NPC, the NPC will accelerate to try to get into its orbit range. Target velocity decreases missile damage, so not only are you losing time to get into range, you risk reduced missile damage by using HAMs. Thanks for the link. I suppose I can concede that it's comparable to a cruise CNR but that's still a far cry from Torp CNR's and Golems. The extra training to get to Torps V is not too bad either and well worth the time. --
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.04.28 22:40:00 - [24] Originally by: Kadoes Khan Thanks for the link. I suppose I can concede that it's comparable to a cruise CNR but that's still a far cry from Torp CNR's and Golems. The extra training to get to Torps V is not too bad either and well worth the time. It's strictly comparable to missile damage. The fact that a Tengu must spend time shooting frigs makes it not quite as good. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire


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