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Anna Lifera
Gallente Imperial Legion of Amarr
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Posted - 2010.05.01 16:30:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Malcanis
There seems to be an unsupported assumption running rampant in this thread:
That we need instant, complete intel of a system.
Yes, we have it now. Yes, we're used to operating with it. But I am not convinced that it is an absolute necessity. It's just that we've grown so used to our comfort blanket that we cant conceive of being without it.
Maybe we should just step back for a moment and think about what EVE would be like without instant, reliable system-wide intel.
You see a lot of people complaining that one system is much like another, space is all the same, etc etc. What if the size and layout of a system really mattered?
What if different classes of ships had different scanner characteristics? You could introduce variables like range, accuracy, sensitivity, re-scan frequency. You could also modify these variables according to fit. For instance, an active cloak should have a very strong penalty to scanner use; or perhaps even using the scanner would temporarily disable the cloak! Active ECCM should make one hard to scan, but it should also make your scanner less accurate. A sensor booster would work in the opposite fashion.
What if using the scanner made you easier to scan? What if this varied by sensor type? (eg: using LADAR scanners makes you show up more easily to LADAR sensors, but makes no difference to Gravimetric sensors).
If we think about the possibilities that dropping local as an omni-intel tool would offer us, I think that the inevitable conclusion would be that there would be a huge amount of actual gameplay potential added. Space would seem big again. Scouting would be more than keeping an alt at a safespot; it would become a player-skill based profession. And I think that we'd get more and better fights, to be honest. These days, 0.0/lo-sec PvP is mostly about evading fights until you can hotdrop the enemy with 3x their numbers. It has become stale and it's time for a shakeup. Engaging the enemy without perfect intel would be risky, it would be exciting, it would be fun.
Incidentally, I think local in empire should remain more or less as it is.
1. do u know why ppl need that reliable, instant, intel system that shouldn't require ppl to be an alliance tool to access? it's the only defense that the target has, with the mechanics heavily favoring the attackers and in numbers. 2. why would u only propose changes to scanning to "compensate" for this? r u telling us that pvp is actually getting those fights rather than the fight itself? that that's what it all boils down to? to blob up, catch your enemy and ez kill to pad your killboard? guess what? not everyone hides behind a blob like u do and that's why they shouldn't be forced to. what u're really pushing forward is not more and better fights--it's more ez ganks. getting a fight isn't pvp--it's cat and mouse and your proposal will only encourage more of the "evading fights" that u ***** about. not to mention, u want to make all covert ops frigates useless for the sole purpose of this as well. 3. let's see, what would it be like without local? blobs, blobs, and...more blobs outblobbing small gangs? in case u haven't noticed, u're forgetting (most likely, on purpose) one factor--the players' behavior. your problem is for some stupid reason, u're convinced with this "sunshine and rainbows" notion that the whole eve playerbase is perfect and "honorable", that they would gladly and "honorably" fight a duel or an even an even-number gang skirmish, that they would never in good conscience, blob anything that they would not take even one loss from and run from every other situation. this might come as a surprise for u but...it doesn't work that way. either wake up and get back to (virtual) reality or keep dreaming and idealizing all u like--it certainly ain't gonna change the players, except hinder pvp or even simply setting foot in low sec/0.0, which goes against ccp's stated goals. --- LOLOLOL If anything, lvl4s require LESS effort then Mining!... At least in mining you have to check every 4 minutes to move the ore to the can. You're an idiot. - Jerid Verges |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.01 18:19:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Anna Lifera r u telling us that pvp is actually getting those fights rather than the fight itself?
In terms of time and effort, this is by far the most significant part of PvP.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.05.01 22:31:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Anna Lifera r u telling us that pvp is actually getting those fights rather than the fight itself?
In terms of time and effort, this is by far the most significant part of PvP.
Yup. PvP starts way before the first target lock is established.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2010.05.01 22:43:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Sellmewarez
Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 01/05/2010 10:11:15
If we think about the possibilities that dropping local as an omni-intel tool would offer us, I think that the inevitable conclusion would be that there would be a huge amount of actual gameplay potential added. Space would seem big again. Scouting would be more than keeping an alt at a safespot; it would become a player-skill based profession. And I think that we'd get more and better fights, to be honest. These days, 0.0/lo-sec PvP is mostly about evading fights until you can hotdrop the enemy with 3x their numbers. It has become stale and it's time for a shakeup. Engaging the enemy without perfect intel would be risky, it would be exciting, it would be fun.
Then it would just make metagaming even more important in 0.0 if there wasn't a game design mechanic for intel.
1. Login spy, join enemy fleet. 2. Analyse fleet numbers and makeup. 3. Relay it to your superiors and organize a counter blob. 4. ????? 5. Profit!
How is this different to what happens now?
I was going to post this, but Mal beat me to it lol. -
Originally by: Bellum Eternus That is the beauty of Eve, it's a crucible in which great minds are formed and the rest are ground to dust.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.01 23:47:00 -
[65]
Edited by: NightmareX on 01/05/2010 23:48:44 As things are now in EVE, i wont support this. Don't even think about getting me to support this, as long there isn't a totally new type of local that works in a different way than the current Local is working.
Removing local today will create 90457860989068450984 more problems for just fixing some small things that really isn't a big problem in EVE today.
I can see the benefit of having local removed, but like i said, as things in EVE are today, i will say this with big letters: NOT SUPPORTED.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.02 01:09:00 -
[66]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 02/05/2010 01:12:20 There needs to be a happy medium between the hunted and the hunter. Taking away local skews things too much in favor of the hunter.
If removing local is the only change made then it allows the hunter to scan and probe when and as leasurely as he pleases, while someone doing any PVE activity will have to do it ALL THE TIME he is out. And making Eve a game about spamming a button in order to not get ganked is just wrong.
And no, having a bigger blob isn't the solution either. This plan needs to be complete. It can't be some half-worked-up plan that only favors the hunters and screws the hunted. It needs to be balanced before we even consider voting on it.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Orb Lati
ANZAC ALLIANCE IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.02 02:43:00 -
[67]
If you were to remove local then the game needs to provide a intel tool to replace it, and unfortunately directional scan is not it.
My thoughts on that matter is the core probe launcher would be the best tool for a replacement intel tool. Use the Core launcher to launch multiple probes within system that would detect any ship (cloked/visble) within its sphere radius. That information is then relayed back to your scanner window to display player and ship class (frig/cruiser/BC/BS/Capital). Provide a limited active time same with standard probes so they have to be refreshed every 1-2 hours.
That opinion would be a good solution, as it would give active pilots the tools to protect them selves, and provide a bane to the macro ratters. And as an added benefit would provide a limited tool for the detection of cloaked ships but not the ability of precisely locating them. IE cloaky ship not moving out of range of a 0.25 au probe is less of a threat that one popping between multiple probe locations.
My final thought would be to provide a rank 1/2 skill for this new probe system so you could limit the amount of probes in space, and possibly use the other supporting probe skills to define the extent of information you receive back.
A quick supplement to this would be also allow the ship scanner (30 sec delay might need to be reduced?) to be able to do a "ping" to see if there is anything within your immediate vicinity as a counter to cloaked dictors etc as the major impact of a probe based intel system is a massive buff to the tactic of a cloaked dictor on gate.
"We worship Strength because it is through strength that all other values are made possible" |
RuleoftheBone
The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.05.02 12:13:00 -
[68]
Supported.
W-space proved the concept.
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Anna Lifera
Gallente Imperial Legion of Amarr
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Posted - 2010.05.02 15:28:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Malcanis In terms of time and effort, this is by far the most significant part of PvP.
and u wonder why ppl evade so many fights, making u have to roam 99% of your time... it's 'cause before it "starts", everyone knows the other side will stack so many odds (fleet size) against them. honestly, do u think ppl will just fly blind, right into a bubble blob? no, they won't. they'll just avoid 0.0 altogether, leaving u with nothing to ez gank. and if u actually thought they would, then i grossly overestimated u, 'cause here's a tip: other players r not mindless rats with names... --- LOLOLOL If anything, lvl4s require LESS effort then Mining!... At least in mining you have to check every 4 minutes to move the ore to the can. You're an idiot. - Jerid Verges |
Mynxee
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.05.02 15:42:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Orb Lati My thoughts on that matter is the core probe launcher would be the best tool for a replacement intel tool.
I'm a fan of delayed Local, since I believe that nothing about gathering intel should be easy. Not a fan of EVE played in Lazy Mode. Intel is a vital resource and you should have to work to get it. However, I support Bell's proposal only with a caveat that something better replaces the current d-scanner. Orb Lati's ideas earlier in this thread about adapting current probe mechanics are appealing. Perhaps with deep safes being nerfed, deep space probes could be given an intel gathering capability.
Even though I adore my cov ops ships, I like the idea of a probe that can report info about cloaky ships. But only how many are within range of the probe, not their type or location. Just a count. Any such probe should be short-range and require a special skill to use. Forcing trade-offs and difficult choices about what to train is something I favor.
Life In Low Sec |
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The Grouch
FinFleet IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.03 07:53:00 -
[71]
Delayed local has a couple problems. . .
OK actually its got a lot of problems.
However I do like the idea so long as we decide to take it a step further. Here's just a "Spattering" of ideas:
Increase belt sizes to over 750km. Rat spawn locations and ore regeneration talored to fit of course. Provide beacons for the 0km point of the belt, then leave others to explore +750km in each direction.
^^^Implement a reduction of visual on-grid distancing. Maybe back to 250km. This allows the hunted to "hide" in the belts and do their work, whether it be ratting or mining. I think that if you incorporate this sort of stuff in, PLUS keep in the deepsafes (WHY THE **** ARE YOU GETTING RID OF THAT BTW JESUS), and you might be getting closer to local removal, especially in 0.0 space. However, 0.0 SOVERIEGN space should get insta-local, because after all, its their space.
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Deja Thoris
Invicta. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.05.03 11:54:00 -
[72]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone Supported.
W-space proved the concept.
No it didnt. W space has many unique differences that make it a totally different kettle of fish. Not least of which are spawning in jump range and the restirctions on numbers. You are misinformed if you think they are comparable.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.03 13:52:00 -
[73]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone Supported.
W-space proved the concept.
W-space proved that no local works in W-space. That's it. The mechanics between K-space and W-space are different and the "success" (or lack thereof) in K-space can and will vary.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.05.03 17:39:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Razin on 03/05/2010 17:42:02 Supported.
The game would need a better D-scanner though. ...
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.05.03 19:27:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Bagehi on 03/05/2010 19:28:22 This would make PVP roams (in their current form) take way too long. I can't imagine waiting at gates for scouts to search every system for something to kill. Waiting for scouts to identify if players have safed up or are docked in the systems with someone in local is bad enough when you've been on a roam for a while.
No local isn't the giant boost to PVP you are trying to make it out to be. Roams don't use voodoo to find which systems people are in, they use local.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.05.03 20:15:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Bagehi Edited by: Bagehi on 03/05/2010 19:28:22 This would make PVP roams (in their current form) take way too long. I can't imagine waiting at gates for scouts to search every system for something to kill. Waiting for scouts to identify if players have safed up or are docked in the systems with someone in local is bad enough when you've been on a roam for a while.
No local isn't the giant boost to PVP you are trying to make it out to be. Roams don't use voodoo to find which systems people are in, they use local.
This it would just kill roaming not that is that great now. What should be done is to increase income from belts/anoms + make harder to warp to safe.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.05.03 21:27:00 -
[77]
I think we should seriously discuss proposal of adding/changing several 0.0 regions with no local, with minor to no scanner improvements. Then when scanner is redesigned significantly and the performance of new 0.0 is evaluated, further discussion should take place on converting all of 0.0 to no local.
This would be a more reasonable request than the current "all or nothing" approach
Maybe call the new no local regions as -1, and since they should be richer than other 0.0, have all systems there be -1 true sec
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Orree
Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.05.03 23:13:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Deja Thoris Edited by: Deja Thoris on 28/04/2010 23:26:12 I don't support this. In its current incarnation eve isnt reaady for it.
It works in wormholes since there are limited and hard to find entries and exits.
With a proposal like this with eve in its current form it would just be local full of cloaky ***gots screaming "boom headshot!!!" every time someone enters local because the game offers no intel tools other than a half baked directional scanner.
Edit: Where the heck is the thumb down!?
While I'm not opposed to the greater concept of "no local" in 0.0 or low sec, I agree with Deja on this.
:thumbsdown:
---------- "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli |
Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.05.03 23:32:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Orree
Originally by: Deja Thoris Edited by: Deja Thoris on 28/04/2010 23:26:12 I don't support this. In its current incarnation eve isnt reaady for it.
It works in wormholes since there are limited and hard to find entries and exits.
With a proposal like this with eve in its current form it would just be local full of cloaky ***gots screaming "boom headshot!!!" every time someone enters local because the game offers no intel tools other than a half baked directional scanner.
Edit: Where the heck is the thumb down!?
While I'm not opposed to the greater concept of "no local" in 0.0 or low sec, I agree with Deja on this.
:thumbsdown:
OK lets separate the pussies from hardcore people with new regions. Nobody will force you into big scary no-local space, just don't let your fear get in the way of other people's fun
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.04 00:17:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Ephemeron OK lets separate the pussies from hardcore people with new regions. Nobody will force you into big scary no-local space, just don't let your fear get in the way of other people's fun
Confirming that those wanting a balanced implementation are pussies.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.05.04 00:21:00 -
[81]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Originally by: Ephemeron OK lets separate the pussies from hardcore people with new regions. Nobody will force you into big scary no-local space, just don't let your fear get in the way of other people's fun
Confirming that those wanting a balanced implementation are pussies.
Since when is refusal to change status-quo considered wanting a balanced implementation?
that's like the Republicans on healthcare.
My argument was against people who want to do nothing.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.04 00:32:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Ephemeron Since when is refusal to change status-quo considered wanting a balanced implementation?
that's like the Republicans on healthcare.
My argument was against people who want to do nothing.
Perhaps if you read Deja's post instead of spewing mindless and childish insults you'd have noticed he is actually FOR a change of the status quo. He even goes as far as suggesting AN IDEA, which you simply refute with "BAH, YUR A *****", instead of adding to it or being somewhat more open. A change like this NEEDS BALANCE, Whether you like it or not.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.05.04 01:20:00 -
[83]
Quote: Perhaps if you read Deja's post instead of spewing mindless and childish insults you'd have noticed he is actually FOR a change of the status quo. He even goes as far as suggesting AN IDEA, which you simply refute with "BAH, YUR A *****", instead of adding to it or being somewhat more open. A change like this NEEDS BALANCE, Whether you like it or not.
I have read his post carefully again. I see no proposal for change. I only see a refusal for change.
This is exactly the Republican defense strategy - deny everything, create an illusion of alternative plan, never show it to anyone, refuse to cooperate, stall.
If you manage to come up with a balanced proposal that's not meant to be unattainable for hope of failure, I'll apologize for being too cynical.
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Jish Ness
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Posted - 2010.05.04 02:52:00 -
[84]
/signed
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.04 10:52:00 -
[85]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 04/05/2010 10:53:59
Originally by: Ephemeron This is exactly the Republican defense strategy - deny everything, create an illusion of alternative plan, never show it to anyone, refuse to cooperate, stall.
It's funny that you keep bringing up "republicanism" to attack those that disagree with you.
But think about it. Who are the ones wanting to play cowboy shooting everyone without regards to anyone else or without balance? Who are the ones that are willing to make **** go their way without concern on what the majority of players think or without concern on how it might affect the overall health of the game? Who are the players that usually resort to insulting and demeaning someone for proposing an idea even remotely championing carebearism? You got. That's you. The real repuclicans of the game. You are the elite cowboys that don't give a **** about anyone else but yourselves.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Mynxee
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.05.04 11:07:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Bagehi No local isn't the giant boost to PVP you are trying to make it out to be. Roams don't use voodoo to find which systems people are in, they use local.
As a compromise, perhaps there could be some kind of indicator of how many are in local, just a small number on the overview controls or something. At least then, you'd know if Local was empty and not worth effort to look for targets.
Life In Low Sec |
Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.05.04 11:07:00 -
[87]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 04/05/2010 10:53:59
Originally by: Ephemeron This is exactly the Republican defense strategy - deny everything, create an illusion of alternative plan, never show it to anyone, refuse to cooperate, stall.
It's funny that you keep bringing up "republicanism" to attack those that disagree with you.
But think about it. Who are the ones wanting to play cowboy shooting everyone without regards to anyone else or without balance? Who are the ones that are willing to make **** go their way without concern on what the majority of players think or without concern on how it might affect the overall health of the game? Who are the players that usually resort to insulting and demeaning someone for proposing an idea even remotely championing carebearism? You got. That's you. The real repuclicans of the game. You are the elite cowboys that don't give a **** about anyone else but yourselves.
Spot on Matrix^^ Maybe the "elits" should stfu and go to wh space and stuck there if that is so good. Btw have you noticed that none of the supporters actually get their isk from belts/anoms in 0.0/low sec?
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Nuts Nougat
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.05.04 11:24:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 04/05/2010 11:24:03 Remove local, put d-scan on automatic mode i.e. autorefresh every 5 seconds if "auto" checkbox ticked. Also, scanner should not show ship type, only it's signature radius, so you never know if you're warping into a carrier, or just an mwding battleship. ---
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Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2010.05.04 14:16:00 -
[89]
To everyone supporting this "if the d-scanner is fixed", you do realise Bellum didn't include improvements to that in his proposal, right? That you're giving a thumbs-ups to the proposal of ditching Local with no d-scanner change?
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Orree
Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.05.04 18:08:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Orree
While I'm not opposed to the greater concept of "no local" in 0.0 or low sec, I agree with Deja on this.
:thumbsdown:
OK lets separate the pussies from hardcore people with new regions. Nobody will force you into big scary no-local space, just don't let your fear get in the way of other people's fun
LOL..yeah. Here's me FULL OF FEAR!!!!!111!!!1
I said I support the concept of it because I agree it would be fun (read: I'm not scared). I simply said I do not think the game in its current state will support a reasonable implementation of what is being requested.
Nice poo-flinging, though. That was impressive.
---------- "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli |
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