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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
488
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Posted - 2012.07.11 18:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:....
Not really the case. The Amarr side is simply disinterested, and many are packing up, moving north, where the battle lines are more evenly drawn; where there's something for both sides to fight over.
So, to those crowing that we can do it without Goon help, perhaps we're still lingering under the effects of what they did. If the Amarr are so disinterested that they aren't fighting back, then what sort of victory are we crowing over?....
You are confusing plexing and occupancy with fighting. Plexing was a pve activity when caldari took all gallente space and CCP changed nothing in inferno to make plexing a pvp activity.
If you want amarr to plex make it a pvp activity. But when I have an hour or so to play eve I have a choice to make. I can spend that hour and easilly capture 6 minor plexes deep in minmatar space without any pvp, or I can maybe capture about 2 plexes and get allot of pvp. I almost always choose the latter. So do most amarr.
The answer for faction war remains the same. Make the occupancy war a pvp mechanic. 2 things have been mentioned that can likely do this. 1) have the timer start ticking down if you warp out after a wartarget lands on grid or on grid with your accell gate. 2) Notify the militias when plexes are taken.
I usually go in busy minmatar systems to plex. But even then most times no one will come to fight. Maybe people are docked up or whatever. I don't know. But I often don't even finish a minor plex if it seems no one is going to enter the plex to fight.
I know at any given time someone on the minmatar side would like to fight for a plex. But they simply don't know I am there. CCP needs to fix this.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
489
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Posted - 2012.07.12 00:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
sYnc Vir wrote:Dynast wrote:Deen Wispa wrote:I'm curious to know if WBR came over and joined you guys, would you welcome them with open arms and forgive them for the sake of "winning the war" ? No, because they'd never actually be on our side. Push comes to shove, they'd side with their bropact buttbuddies in SOTF any day of the week, and they're proud of it.
Yes, Honouring friends over random people that press a button to join a loose group of pilots which require nothing other then 0 standings with said faction. We are awful awful space pilots.
The corps are friends, let it go. Tis an old story that bores.
I certainly can appreciate and agree with this. But what I don't understand is why you joined warring faction miliitas. Wouldn't joinign forces on one side or the other be better for all of you?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
489
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Posted - 2012.07.12 00:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:Major Killz wrote:Can only hope your corporation leaves and is successful outside of factional warfare. Many have failed and few have survived and almost none bar 1 - 4 corporations have had success. The most successful X-factional warfare corporation is No Mercy. They even had tech moons in the north @ some point and lead a very successful pvp alliance (one of the best ingame @ the time).
The first to go are the pilots who need to be hand held and want things easy and are opposed to difficulty. They often account for 30 - 70% of a corporation. They tend to go back to milltia. Happened to Dark rising within a month of leaving. Also, not suprised to see them back in milltia lol.
If you don't get your corporation use to engaging in piracy and engagements in 0.0.
Not to mention making an income outside of factional warfare sources. Leaving can be a death nail lol. There's alot of fail atempt to learn from so Im sure future atempts will be different. There's alot of truth in your statements. Though, I would say that the difficulty that arises from corps leaving has more to do with not being able to fly in disciplined fleet comps. Alot of FW is kitchen sink stuff. Having been in the theatre for the past 6 months, I've noticed many corps who can't grow beyond kitchen sinking. Leadership of a corp often don't have the vision to understand the challenges that lie ahead of them as they leave FW and try to do more non-FW pvp in low or null. Because of that, their pilots are not fully prepared for the harshness of non FW PVP. Alot of pvp corps in FW don't always appreciate what they have till they leave. Though, WBR should be fine since they do fly disciplined fleet comps and this isn't the first time they've left.
I think it depends on what you call success. I see going to null sec as a failure because it offers bad gameplay.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
489
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Posted - 2012.07.12 01:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:You don't have to live in null. You can reside in lowsec and visit null to get fights. Heck people could do it now within FW instead of whining about lack of WTs in the theatre
I agree that can be fun. My corp did that for a while. But we didn't leave faction war to do it. Why eliminate that free wardec if you are in low sec?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
489
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Posted - 2012.07.12 15:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
PHPR Freighter wrote:
That aside, I will admit I have debated a few times about going to minmatar and plex for a while. I only have about 47k LP and can't cash out on anything worthwhile other then ammo and boosters. I am actively trying to find 1v1 ships that can take down the vigils the ninja plexers uses, the dramials and the daredevils that everyone uses..
I ask that you dont plex for minmatar or gallente. But you can and should have an alt run missions for them. Running missions for tribal liberation force is no different than running missions for boundless creation. It doesn't hurt the amarr militia efforts at all. Actually if you use it to fund your pvp amarr character it helps.
Even having an alt in minmatar militia running plexes against caldari hurts amarr (and obviously caldari).
I realize it is easier for older players to get an alt in a stealth bomber or bs to run missions. (mwd cloak trick to get your bs around low sec) But really in eve you may want a money making alt that can do something like that anyway. But once you have a mission running alt then you will have your main that can go caldari or amarr and you will have an alt that can run missions for minmatar or gallente. You will be able to cash in no matter who is winning.
PHPR Freighter wrote:
There has been talk about the militia on how to make things somewhat better. Currently, regardless of how many people plex, its a flat .9% increase/decrease and there is a set time for 1 person. If multiple people plex, you get a cut of the LP and the Standing, which makes it only for 1 person to plex at a time. Defensive plexing needs an increase to the % of the system control, to something like 1.5%, where as the offensive plexing needs to be increased slightly to 1%. There needs to be incentives to defensive plexing. Multiple people defensive plexing needs to bring the time down to actually encourage defensive plexing. Max would be 10/15/20 mins for plexes base, and min time would be 7.5/10/15 mins. I am just throwing random numbers out but that is the general gist of it.
I disagree that there needs to be incentives to defensive plexing. Defensive plexing is horrible and I would rather it be removed all together than have it get rewards.
Don't defensive plex. (if you want to hold one or 2 systems thats fine to keep the minmatar from getting a medal thats fine. But really thats it. Don't defensive plex. It just give minmatar plexers isk.) Let the minmatar keep taking systems while we build the contest level of all the systems they have. Most will eventually get tired of dplexing for no gain. Yes it will take a long time but it will get us to tier 5 if we do it right.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
491
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Posted - 2012.07.13 15:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
First I am not sure the amarr plexers won't resusitate on their own. But if they are unable to resusitate themselves doing a reset will do nothing but feed the minmatar alt plexers.
If the mechanics are too lopsided ccp could consider the following that would help amarr:
1) Reduce the amount you make from missions to be on par with plexing. Right now mission running is the best isk maker. Even with no lp for defensive plexing minmatar might make enough isk overall by running missions and defensive plexing. For example if they can make 700 million isk per hour just running missions. It may be that they would only make 500 million isk per hour if they ran defensive plexes and missions. The time spent running the defensive plexing might still be justified to keep the the mission piggy bank going. As more and more people join minmatar just small percent of them occasionally running defensive plexes might be enough to preserve their isk faucet.
2) Because of what I describe above it may work if ccp made defensive plexing cost lp. So if minmatar want to defensive plex they would have to pay lp to get it to count toward decontesting a system. Thus that might push that lp scale in favor of the side that needs to win systems.
3) more drastically just remove defensive plexing altogether. Either defend the plex in pvp or you gradually lose your system.
4) remove the advantage minmatar have from rats.
5) make plexing a pvp game. Have timers count down when plexers are chased out. Notify militias when miltary complexes are attacked so they can defend them in pvp.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
492
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Posted - 2012.07.14 03:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
David Clausewitz wrote:Off topic, but I think whoever made that comic has no knowledge of Roman history. It was probably meant to be a metaphor for another situation though. Also, it doesn't matter how bad it gets in terms of system control, Fweddit will not be leaving Amarr. We are losing the PVE war horrendously but fortunately most of us, myself included, don't give a **** about PVE or plexing in FW. The PVP is why we're here and that war is extremely successful and target rich. The unsung heroes of this PVE war for sov are the carebear plex farmers minnie has a surplus of that are only in it for the ISK. I would love to see an "isk destroyed" part of the faction warfare panel in-game below "ships killed" to know how badly we're winning the PVP war in efficiency.
I agree on the roman history. ( I haven't specifically read about these wars but from what i do know the roman soldiers were likely greatly outnumbered and punched well above their weight.) And generallly I agree with your post until you get to isk efficeiency. That has never been my bag. Worrying about isk efficiency is a terrible way to play eve. I am more about having fun than worrying about that.
But if you are interested in isk efficiency the killboards don't keep track of the lp or the value of the lp earned from pvp. I think if you build that in you might find our isk efficency isn't so great. But that is back to your first point - are you having fun? If so who cares about killboard isk efficiency?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
492
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Posted - 2012.07.14 11:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
David Clausewitz wrote:Cearain wrote:
But if you are interested in isk efficiency the killboards don't keep track of the lp or the value of the lp earned from pvp. I think if you build that in you might find our isk efficency isn't so great. But that is back to your first point - are you having fun? If so who cares about killboard isk efficiency?
...... You certainly can't use simple kill:death ratios because they would be even less accurate given there would be no way to distinguish between an extremely valuable kill/death and an extremely invaluable kill/death. Trying to use warzone control as a standard as of late is a joke because it has very little to do with PVP (won't go so far as to say it has nothing to do with it because it does play a semi-important role sometimes). Assuming both sides have an equal share of fun, the most accurate (although not perfect) mathematical way to determine who comes out on top in any given PVP engagement is isk efficiency. Regardless of how much you obsess over it or how little you care about it as a stat, you can't deny that it's the best thing we've got. Of course, some people will care a lot more than others, but anyone who says they don't care about isk efficiency at all may as well say they don't care about winning, and if you don't care about whether you win or not then you wouldn't actually be bothering with competing in the first place.
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Winning in faction war is what you make of it. If you achieving your objectives you are winning. Neither side is going to surrender so the war never really ends. Its complicated and sometimes arbitrary to say who wins in real life wars.
I think I understand the advantages and disadvantages of making your goal isk efficiency. I was never interested in it. One player may want to cling to his 500k isk rifter and only engage if he is sure he can win. I on the other hand ground isk to blow it up. I don't want to give the ships away I want to have as many good fights as I can before their gone. But I figured out ways to make isk in this game so I don't want to be tied down with those who have to scrimp and save - if that makes sense.
To the extent I have any goals I think I prefer bcs rankings. They are the only things that seem to be somewhat accurate with better pvpers tending to the top of the list. But that is a whole other story.
Anyway I was just saying that if you truly want to calculate isk efficiency you should take account the lp. Lets say the killboard says both sides blow up about 12 billion in stuff. Well both sides will get about 4 billion divided by 10,000 in lp. (I say 4 billion because insurance is deducted as well as mods that aren't blown up. its a rough number and its probably higher) The minmatar lp is worth about 8k isk per lp. (assuming tier 5) The amarr is worth about 1k isk per lp. (assuming tier 2)
So if the killboards say both blew up about 12 billion the minmatar are actually coming out ahead isk wise by 3.2 billion versus 400 million or 2.8 billion.
I guess one could argue that eventually we will hit tier 5 and so our lp could be worth more. I won't stop you from believing that because i think it will too. But it will take a while so I guess valuing our lp could be tricky. But I do think you should count that lp as going to the minmatar because that is real isk that they can fairly easilly cash out at about 8k isk per lp.
So in the near term most minmatar who are interested in isk ratios will be happy to fight the amarr even if the killboard says amarr killed 14.5 bill and minmatar only killed 12 bill.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
492
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Posted - 2012.07.18 14:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
Amymuffmuff wrote:
Quite alot of entities are dug in into amarr space. Such as Iron Oxide. in arzad and Late night in huola/kourm. To have moved all our **** before the patch would have been impossible so we took it to them to prevent that from happening.
I will have to agree that IO did do allot of plexing before inferno. I-law was plexing in and around arzad and we were met with allot of resistance from allot of players. Yes we were also met with a few bugged plexes which was disheartening, but there were clearly allot of minmatar players plexing around that area before inferno hit. Too many for us to take and hold those systems.
So amarr had to do the "impossible" and move allot of our stuff out before the patch hit at the most critical time to run plexes. (Every pre inferno plex counted 5xs as much toward occupancy as every post inferno plex.) The general disarray the rule change on station lockouts caused the amarr, was something that has never happened due to any minmatar/player actions. Not when RKK joined minmatar and certainly the goons actions didn't even come close to the disruption that station lock out caused amarr at such a critical time.
But anyway my point is that there are allot of minmatar that want to say how they "earned" thier lp store yet they never did any plexing before inferno. It was the preinferno plexing combined with ccp changing the rules on docking that really did the amarr in. IO is sort of an exception to this rule. I do agree they did allot of plexing and they did a good job holding arzad.
Anyway I have always been against a reset. Players should play the game as best they can. I never like it when players are supposed to enter any sort of "scouts honor" agreements to make the game fun. If its simply broken when both players push the mechanics as much as they can, then ccp should fix the underlying mechanics. (not just a reset.)
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
498
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Posted - 2012.07.25 16:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Tanaka Sekigahara wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:dribble... "Rejuvenate" FW? Implying it is dead?? PvP kills have never been higher in FW. There is plenty going on, you don't have a clue. It's sucks when facts get in the way of a good rant.
I'm betting pvp kills were higher the week before and after inferno than they were the last 2 weeks.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
498
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Posted - 2012.07.25 16:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Tanaka Sekigahara wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:dribble... "Rejuvenate" FW? Implying it is dead?? PvP kills have never been higher in FW. There is plenty going on, you don't have a clue. It's sucks when facts get in the way of a good rant. I'm betting pvp kills were higher the week before and after inferno than they were the last 2 weeks. I'm still getting plenty of kills. Will have highest monthly total ever by the end of this month. You must be doing it wrong. 
I might be wrong. Plus things may be different on the caldari gallente side than they are in the minmatar amarr side. Do you know of anything where we can actually check statistics on this?
The faction war tab gives kills for the current week but not the earlier ones.
Edit: and yes I might be doing it wrong too. I am running plexes in the minmatar main systems of huola kourm and dal. I might be better off sitting in a gate camp on the kamela kourm gate.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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