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Rthor
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Posted - 2004.12.06 22:17:00 -
[61]
I mined a long time ago but from what I remember you dont lose anything because what actually happens is that one of your other lasers "empties" the roid and it pops so all the ore that was in the roid gets into your hold. If another laser is still working on that roid after it pops then that laser gets nothing but you did get everything from the roid.
Solution: point your individual mining lasers at different roids.
Disclaimer: I believe that this is true but I have not done this in ages.
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Rthor
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Posted - 2004.12.06 22:17:00 -
[62]
I mined a long time ago but from what I remember you dont lose anything because what actually happens is that one of your other lasers "empties" the roid and it pops so all the ore that was in the roid gets into your hold. If another laser is still working on that roid after it pops then that laser gets nothing but you did get everything from the roid.
Solution: point your individual mining lasers at different roids.
Disclaimer: I believe that this is true but I have not done this in ages.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2004.12.06 22:32:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Nyphur on 06/12/2004 22:40:58
*sigh* -_-;
Looks like I'm going to have to make another thread to be taken seriously...
Yes, I made a mistake but the underlying progblem is indeed there and is very real. If you think wasting two minutes with two stripminers isn't the same as missing 1600m3 of ore, you need to get this issue straight in your head. Time is money and when mining lots of asteroids with low amounts of ore in them, stripminers WILL produce a lower ore/time than their counterpart ships with MinerIIs due to this inherent bug in the mining system.
 Originally by: Rthor
Solution: point your individual mining lasers at different roids.
No, this isn't acceptable when using a stripminer. You can lose up to three minutes mining time just by not knowing how much ore is in an asteroid.
Why the heck would a real miner mine when he knows all of the ore is gone in an asteroid? In Eve, mining lasers build up a potential to remove ore from an asteroid over the activation time and then at the end of that time, remove it and put it in your cargo bay. What we see in ths visuals is a laser taking ore from an asteroid in pulses every few seconds - something completely nonindicative of how mining actually works.
My suggestion is that when the mining lasers have built up the potential to pop an asteroid, it should automatically pop. This would completely remove this very real and very annoying problem from eve entirely.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2004.12.06 22:32:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Nyphur on 06/12/2004 22:40:58
*sigh* -_-;
Looks like I'm going to have to make another thread to be taken seriously...
Yes, I made a mistake but the underlying progblem is indeed there and is very real. If you think wasting two minutes with two stripminers isn't the same as missing 1600m3 of ore, you need to get this issue straight in your head. Time is money and when mining lots of asteroids with low amounts of ore in them, stripminers WILL produce a lower ore/time than their counterpart ships with MinerIIs due to this inherent bug in the mining system.
Originally by: Rthor
Solution: point your individual mining lasers at different roids.
No, this isn't acceptable when using a stripminer. You can lose up to three minutes mining time just by not knowing how much ore is in an asteroid.
Why the heck would a real miner mine when he knows all of the ore is gone in an asteroid? In Eve, mining lasers build up a potential to remove ore from an asteroid over the activation time and then at the end of that time, remove it and put it in your cargo bay. What we see in ths visuals is a laser taking ore from an asteroid in pulses every few seconds - something completely nonindicative of how mining actually works.
My suggestion is that when the mining lasers have built up the potential to pop an asteroid, it should automatically pop. This would completely remove this very real and very annoying problem from eve entirely.
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Rthor
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Posted - 2004.12.06 22:36:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Nyphur
Time is money.
Why dont you charge more?
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Rthor
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Posted - 2004.12.06 22:36:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Nyphur
Time is money.
Why dont you charge more?
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2004.12.06 22:39:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Rthor
Originally by: Nyphur
Time is money.
Why dont you charge more?
Man... I'm not even going to answer that. Heck, I wouldn't know how to answer that if I wanted to :P.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2004.12.06 22:39:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Rthor
Originally by: Nyphur
Time is money.
Why dont you charge more?
Man... I'm not even going to answer that. Heck, I wouldn't know how to answer that if I wanted to :P.
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Larno
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Posted - 2004.12.06 23:05:00 -
[69]
For those of you who don't believe there is a flaw, take this example...
I have my large mining barge equiped with three strip miners. I start to mine an asteroid with 1 arkonor left in it.
If the lasers stopped after one second, then would each laser give me 0.33 ore? No. Would one laser give me 1, and the others give me 0? Yes.
On the other hand, if the lasers carried on for three minutes, would I get the full cycles worth from each laser? No. Would I get 1 unit from one laser and 0 units from the other two? Yes.
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Larno
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Posted - 2004.12.06 23:05:00 -
[70]
For those of you who don't believe there is a flaw, take this example...
I have my large mining barge equiped with three strip miners. I start to mine an asteroid with 1 arkonor left in it.
If the lasers stopped after one second, then would each laser give me 0.33 ore? No. Would one laser give me 1, and the others give me 0? Yes.
On the other hand, if the lasers carried on for three minutes, would I get the full cycles worth from each laser? No. Would I get 1 unit from one laser and 0 units from the other two? Yes.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2004.12.06 23:16:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Larno
For those of you who don't believe there is a flaw, take this example...
I have my large mining barge equiped with three strip miners. I start to mine an asteroid with 1 arkonor left in it.
If the lasers stopped after one second, then would each laser give me 0.33 ore? No. Would one laser give me 1, and the others give me 0? Yes.
On the other hand, if the lasers carried on for three minutes, would I get the full cycles worth from each laser? No. Would I get 1 unit from one laser and 0 units from the other two? Yes.
This is exactly the problem I am talking about. Asteroids are not popping when they have been mined long enough to be empty of ore if the laser were to be disengaged. They should. I'll probably make a thread about this tomorrow since this one seems like it's not going to get any more attention from CCP. I suppose they're confident enough that they've disproven my ideas and wouldn't check for any possibility that there was something real, in terms of a bug or problem, to what I was saying.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2004.12.06 23:16:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Larno
For those of you who don't believe there is a flaw, take this example...
I have my large mining barge equiped with three strip miners. I start to mine an asteroid with 1 arkonor left in it.
If the lasers stopped after one second, then would each laser give me 0.33 ore? No. Would one laser give me 1, and the others give me 0? Yes.
On the other hand, if the lasers carried on for three minutes, would I get the full cycles worth from each laser? No. Would I get 1 unit from one laser and 0 units from the other two? Yes.
This is exactly the problem I am talking about. Asteroids are not popping when they have been mined long enough to be empty of ore if the laser were to be disengaged. They should. I'll probably make a thread about this tomorrow since this one seems like it's not going to get any more attention from CCP. I suppose they're confident enough that they've disproven my ideas and wouldn't check for any possibility that there was something real, in terms of a bug or problem, to what I was saying.
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Adipocere
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Posted - 2004.12.06 23:50:00 -
[73]
If this is actually such a concern for you, and you are unwilling to use a scanner, cycle your strip miners more frequently than their normal cycle.
I realize that doesn't provide the solution you want, which would be better for miners, but it's a solution that doesn't require a scanner. Of course you need to pump your cap max or recharge to do it relentlessly, but it is worth it when you have the skills.
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Adipocere
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Posted - 2004.12.06 23:50:00 -
[74]
If this is actually such a concern for you, and you are unwilling to use a scanner, cycle your strip miners more frequently than their normal cycle.
I realize that doesn't provide the solution you want, which would be better for miners, but it's a solution that doesn't require a scanner. Of course you need to pump your cap max or recharge to do it relentlessly, but it is worth it when you have the skills.
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Rthor
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Posted - 2004.12.07 01:03:00 -
[75]
Even if this is all true (which I have no reason to doubt) and this is such a huge problem, it is a problem that all miners face. So the cost in time of getting minerals is the same for all miners. So let's say if you fix this "problem" and now your yield goes up by 2 percent. This also means that all miner's yield goes up by 2 percent. That means that supply of minerals provided by miners goes up by 2 percent. This means that prices of whatever you are mining falls. At the end of the day you still should make roughly the same money from mining regardless of what the actual underlying numbers. Anybody has a problem with this logic?
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Rthor
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Posted - 2004.12.07 01:03:00 -
[76]
Even if this is all true (which I have no reason to doubt) and this is such a huge problem, it is a problem that all miners face. So the cost in time of getting minerals is the same for all miners. So let's say if you fix this "problem" and now your yield goes up by 2 percent. This also means that all miner's yield goes up by 2 percent. That means that supply of minerals provided by miners goes up by 2 percent. This means that prices of whatever you are mining falls. At the end of the day you still should make roughly the same money from mining regardless of what the actual underlying numbers. Anybody has a problem with this logic?
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2004.12.07 18:31:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Nyphur on 07/12/2004 18:37:54
Originally by: Rthor
Even if this is all true (which I have no reason to doubt) and this is such a huge problem, it is a problem that all miners face. So the cost in time of getting minerals is the same for all miners
I see a clear and blatant flaw in your logic.
You're missing the most important point of what I had to say. All miners have the problem but those using stripminers suffer about five times the effect. The result is that mining in a mining barge is LESS efficient if you're popping roids and letting your stripminers go until they finish the cycle.
EDIT: And to the person who said to cycle your stripminers more often, you are a very adept echo. I said that already and I also said that it is not an acceptable solution to me nor do I imagine it is an acceptable solution to other miners. Why should we, who mine in medium barges, have to get withing 5km, scan all the time and flick our mining lasers on and off as much as possible just to mine on par with a thorax or Osprey for ore output? That COMPLETELY nullifies the usefulness of the 15km range of stripminers.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2004.12.07 18:31:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Nyphur on 07/12/2004 18:37:54
Originally by: Rthor
Even if this is all true (which I have no reason to doubt) and this is such a huge problem, it is a problem that all miners face. So the cost in time of getting minerals is the same for all miners
I see a clear and blatant flaw in your logic.
You're missing the most important point of what I had to say. All miners have the problem but those using stripminers suffer about five times the effect. The result is that mining in a mining barge is LESS efficient if you're popping roids and letting your stripminers go until they finish the cycle.
EDIT: And to the person who said to cycle your stripminers more often, you are a very adept echo. I said that already and I also said that it is not an acceptable solution to me nor do I imagine it is an acceptable solution to other miners. Why should we, who mine in medium barges, have to get withing 5km, scan all the time and flick our mining lasers on and off as much as possible just to mine on par with a thorax or Osprey for ore output? That COMPLETELY nullifies the usefulness of the 15km range of stripminers.
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PotatoHead
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Posted - 2004.12.07 19:32:00 -
[79]
I think I follow what you're saying. My take on it is like this:
Mining a small roid with 2 stip miners that won't even pull in a cycle or two each is sort of like using that tunnel boreing machiene they used to build the UK-France tunnel to build a dranage ditch in your yard. Yeah, I watch too much Discovery Channel.
You know, overkill. Set-up/tear-down time on the lasers. I see them as built to mine the big roids, not pop small ones faster. I think that's why they gave them such a long cycle time. I'm talking out of my rear end here since I really don't know anything about the strip miners except what I've made up in my own mind.
I don't know how to better discribe what I'm thinking, hopefully it made sence.
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PotatoHead
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Posted - 2004.12.07 19:32:00 -
[80]
I think I follow what you're saying. My take on it is like this:
Mining a small roid with 2 stip miners that won't even pull in a cycle or two each is sort of like using that tunnel boreing machiene they used to build the UK-France tunnel to build a dranage ditch in your yard. Yeah, I watch too much Discovery Channel.
You know, overkill. Set-up/tear-down time on the lasers. I see them as built to mine the big roids, not pop small ones faster. I think that's why they gave them such a long cycle time. I'm talking out of my rear end here since I really don't know anything about the strip miners except what I've made up in my own mind.
I don't know how to better discribe what I'm thinking, hopefully it made sence.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2004.12.07 19:52:00 -
[81]
Originally by: PotatoHead
I think I follow what you're saying. My take on it is like this:
Mining a small roid with 2 stip miners that won't even pull in a cycle or two each is sort of like using that tunnel boreing machiene they used to build the UK-France tunnel to build a dranage ditch in your yard. Yeah, I watch too much Discovery Channel.
You know, overkill. Set-up/tear-down time on the lasers. I see them as built to mine the big roids, not pop small ones faster. I think that's why they gave them such a long cycle time.
You make a lot of sense. However, the game developers didn't say stripminers were for anything that normal mining lasers aren't.
At the moment, I fix the problem with stripminers by decreasing the cycle time by turning the lasers on and off repeatedly as much as I can. I shoudln't need to do that. When teh asteroid has potentially run out of ore, it should pop mid-lasercycle.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2004.12.07 19:52:00 -
[82]
Originally by: PotatoHead
I think I follow what you're saying. My take on it is like this:
Mining a small roid with 2 stip miners that won't even pull in a cycle or two each is sort of like using that tunnel boreing machiene they used to build the UK-France tunnel to build a dranage ditch in your yard. Yeah, I watch too much Discovery Channel.
You know, overkill. Set-up/tear-down time on the lasers. I see them as built to mine the big roids, not pop small ones faster. I think that's why they gave them such a long cycle time.
You make a lot of sense. However, the game developers didn't say stripminers were for anything that normal mining lasers aren't.
At the moment, I fix the problem with stripminers by decreasing the cycle time by turning the lasers on and off repeatedly as much as I can. I shoudln't need to do that. When teh asteroid has potentially run out of ore, it should pop mid-lasercycle.
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Morlocke
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Posted - 2004.12.07 19:59:00 -
[83]
I tend to agree on that. This has gone from sounding like "I'm losing ore" to "Okay, I'm not losing ore, but I should get fast response time with my stripminers rather than having to wait them out", i.e., gone from what would have been a legitimate complaint to a whine.
Stripminers are enormous devices, and suck in a huge amount of ore. Enjoy it. But be prepared when you're dealing with itty bitty rocks that you're going to waste more time than if you had been using a more agile system, like a mining laser.
Solution: get a friend with an Exequror or an Osprey to take care of the rubble, and re-direct your stripminers before the rocks get too teensy.
M
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Morlocke
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Posted - 2004.12.07 19:59:00 -
[84]
I tend to agree on that. This has gone from sounding like "I'm losing ore" to "Okay, I'm not losing ore, but I should get fast response time with my stripminers rather than having to wait them out", i.e., gone from what would have been a legitimate complaint to a whine.
Stripminers are enormous devices, and suck in a huge amount of ore. Enjoy it. But be prepared when you're dealing with itty bitty rocks that you're going to waste more time than if you had been using a more agile system, like a mining laser.
Solution: get a friend with an Exequror or an Osprey to take care of the rubble, and re-direct your stripminers before the rocks get too teensy.
M
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2004.12.07 21:12:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Morlocke
I tend to agree on that. This has gone from sounding like "I'm losing ore" to "Okay, I'm not losing ore, but I should get fast response time with my stripminers rather than having to wait them out", i.e., gone from what would have been a legitimate complaint to a whine. M
I'd have to disagree. It's gone from being "I'm losing ore" to the equally valid and detrimental "I'm losing mining time, in which I could get ore".
The solution is to turn the lasers off and on more often but I shouldn't have to do this in order to avoid wasting time mining an asteroid. The asteroid should automatically pop mid-cycle when the mining laser is ready to pop it. So if deactivating my mining laser at a certain time in teh cycle would pop the roid, the roid should automatically pop. Otherwise, survey scanners need comparable range to the new stripminer mining lasers in order to let us check when the roid is about to pop and not waste our time overmining it and getting nothing for the time invested.
That time we lose should be invested in mining another asteroid and thus losing time is exactly the same as losing ore. I'm frankly appauled that CCP lept to response on me reporting the first instance but ignoring the second. They are entirely equivalent from an in-game standpoint.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2004.12.07 21:12:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Morlocke
I tend to agree on that. This has gone from sounding like "I'm losing ore" to "Okay, I'm not losing ore, but I should get fast response time with my stripminers rather than having to wait them out", i.e., gone from what would have been a legitimate complaint to a whine. M
I'd have to disagree. It's gone from being "I'm losing ore" to the equally valid and detrimental "I'm losing mining time, in which I could get ore".
The solution is to turn the lasers off and on more often but I shouldn't have to do this in order to avoid wasting time mining an asteroid. The asteroid should automatically pop mid-cycle when the mining laser is ready to pop it. So if deactivating my mining laser at a certain time in teh cycle would pop the roid, the roid should automatically pop. Otherwise, survey scanners need comparable range to the new stripminer mining lasers in order to let us check when the roid is about to pop and not waste our time overmining it and getting nothing for the time invested.
That time we lose should be invested in mining another asteroid and thus losing time is exactly the same as losing ore. I'm frankly appauled that CCP lept to response on me reporting the first instance but ignoring the second. They are entirely equivalent from an in-game standpoint.
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Etoile Chercheur
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Posted - 2004.12.07 22:15:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Etoile Chercheur on 07/12/2004 22:20:26
typo
or, instead of changing the area roid scanners at all, create a new one that can scan specific roids, with a range of 15km. perhaps the ship design could be changed so that one is hardwired and permanently equipped onto every barge, showing up along with the Strip Miners in the high slots. this would make sense, and solve everything.
barge miners would know how much is in each roid they are mining, and can move over to others when the ore gets down pretty low, allowing those in ordinary ships to finish it off.
Midshipman Etoile Chercheur - Logistics Division (M&T) | Hadean Drive Yards
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Etoile Chercheur
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Posted - 2004.12.07 22:15:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Etoile Chercheur on 07/12/2004 22:20:26
typo
or, instead of changing the area roid scanners at all, create a new one that can scan specific roids, with a range of 15km. perhaps the ship design could be changed so that one is hardwired and permanently equipped onto every barge, showing up along with the Strip Miners in the high slots. this would make sense, and solve everything.
barge miners would know how much is in each roid they are mining, and can move over to others when the ore gets down pretty low, allowing those in ordinary ships to finish it off.
Midshipman Etoile Chercheur - Logistics Division (M&T) | Hadean Drive Yards
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2004.12.07 23:47:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Etoile Chercheur
or, instead of changing the area roid scanners at all, create a new one that can scan specific roids, with a range of 15km.
That's the best idea I've heard all day. It's practical, realistic, balanced and implementable. I highly suggest you post this in the Eve Idea lab or it be brought to CCP's attention via some other channel of communication. I believe Eve needs this new module. The module could have a requirement of Astrogeology skill, even, and it would still be accessible to all those who would realistically need to use it.
Or perhaps mining barges could get some kind of bonus to survey scanner range?
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2004.12.07 23:47:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Etoile Chercheur
or, instead of changing the area roid scanners at all, create a new one that can scan specific roids, with a range of 15km.
That's the best idea I've heard all day. It's practical, realistic, balanced and implementable. I highly suggest you post this in the Eve Idea lab or it be brought to CCP's attention via some other channel of communication. I believe Eve needs this new module. The module could have a requirement of Astrogeology skill, even, and it would still be accessible to all those who would realistically need to use it.
Or perhaps mining barges could get some kind of bonus to survey scanner range?
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