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Why cant EvE have something like Warden?

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Zeke Mobius	Posted - 2010.05.16 22:45:00 - [1] Would help alot
Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2010.05.16 22:50:00 - [2] I don't need spyware, thanks a lot. CCP has their own ways of monitoring and dealing with the RTM problem.
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.05.16 22:55:00 - [3] Great post, you really make the case for eve having something like, "warden." Whatever the hell that is.
BeanBagKing Ch3mic4l Warfare	Posted - 2010.05.16 22:57:00 - [4] Appearently OP plays WoW, thus the reason none of us know what it is (I had to google around). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warden_(software) Short version: Blizzards anti-cheating tool, may be compaired to punkbuster? In any case, as much as I hate bots, this doesn't sound like something I want on my PC.
Dan O'Connor Cerberus Network Dignitas.	Posted - 2010.05.16 22:59:00 - [5] Originally by: BeanBagKing In any case, as much as I hate bots, this doesn't sound like something I want on my PC. I'm not so fond of that idea either. ________________________ Let's build a superpower.
I SoStoned Caldari	Posted - 2010.05.16 23:00:00 - [6] Honestly, the client should have a thread/services monitor to look for active macro programs... then simply close the client when they're detected. --- Dreamer: My dream, Freddy! MY RULES. Freddy Kruger: groans Awwwww, f**k. --- Never give up!
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.05.16 23:02:00 - [7] Originally by: Zeke Mobius Would help alot it would help if you explained what the ** is this "Warden" thing. --- Quote:** The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Shikobo Nonu Minmatar	Posted - 2010.05.16 23:03:00 - [8] The main reason Blizzard needs Warden is because they trust the client software that is installed on the player's machine. EVE, however, was developed with the thought in mind that there is always a total bastard player who will happily push the client into the pillows and,... er- you get the point.
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2010.05.16 23:08:00 - [9] Originally by: I SoStoned Honestly, the client should have a thread/services monitor to look for active macro programs... then simply close the client when they're detected. Its a slippery slope, not to throw baseless accusations around, but I dont want CCP having any access to my computer. There has been issues in the past with account security on their own servers, I have every reason to suspect a client-side anti-cheat app would be as insecure or worse. Imagine if someone was able to run a script that redefines the scope of this anti-cheat? Instead of saying closing the EVE client it broadcasts personal information, etc.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2010.05.16 23:08:00 - [10] It would help getting rid of my subscription. Stuff like this isn't going to get on my computer. Period. --------

Angeli Domini Amarr	Posted - 2010.05.16 23:19:00 - [11] Originally by: Grimpak it would help if you explained what the ** is this "Warden" thing. You are mistakenly thinking that a WoW player will be mentally capable of grasping the idea that there might be people in the world that not only don't play WoW, but - oh the horror - don't actually care about it. Obviously you haven't met many of them.. Yet. Originally by:** Arctur Vallfar I'm confident CCP will balance things out fairly well,
Xikuan Minmatar Syrkos Technologies	Posted - 2010.05.16 23:26:00 - [12] Originally by: Zeke Mobius Would help alot And this insight comes from where? Do you work at a MMO development studio or publisher? If not, please link to the publicly available data that clearly shows that spyware such as Warden does anything more than consume CPU cycles and monitors you. I know this is the internet, but honestly, the forum servers won't explode if you, you know, don't post your unfounded opinion based on absolutely no evidence.
Taedrin Gallente The Green Cross DEFI4NT	Posted - 2010.05.16 23:29:00 - [13] Originally by: Derovius Vaden Originally by: I SoStoned Honestly, the client should have a thread/services monitor to look for active macro programs... then simply close the client when they're detected. Its a slippery slope, not to throw baseless accusations around, but I dont want CCP having any access to my computer. There has been issues in the past with account security on their own servers, I have every reason to suspect a client-side anti-cheat app would be as insecure or worse. Imagine if someone was able to run a script that redefines the scope of this anti-cheat? Instead of saying closing the EVE client it broadcasts personal information, etc. I would just like to point out that the slippery slope argument is both a logical and rhetorical fallacy. Also, how in the world does having an anti-cheat app suddenly make things less secure? Think about things logically here. You are essentially worried about something called "Arbitrary Code Execution". In order to do such a thing, a hacker needs three things: a) Write the code to be executed in such a way that it does what the hacker wants (payload) b) Get the code onto the victim's computer (distribution) c) Get the code to be executed on the victim's computer (execution) You are seemingly arguing that if CCP has an anti-cheat app, a hacker could hack CCP's servers and infect the anti-cheat app to steal personal information from us. However, if you think about it, if a hacker were able to hack CCP's servers, they would actually be able to do this with the EVE client code already! ---------- Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident" Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
Tessty	Posted - 2010.05.16 23:29:00 - [14] I use Perfect Keyboard to answer tech emails while I play Eve, because people love to ask the same 20 questions day in and out and refuse to hit the search button. I also have a G15 Keyboard, because I like the backlights and the LCD is nice for controlling music or seeing who's talking in Teamspeak or Ventrillo. I also have Synergy installed because I use several systems at my desk and like using one keyboard and mouse vs switching between different keyboards and mice at my desk. Should I not be allowed to play Eve while using all those things?
Angeli Domini Amarr	Posted - 2010.05.16 23:38:00 - [15] Originally by: Xikuan If not, please link to the publicly available data that clearly shows that spyware such as Warden does anything more than consume CPU cycles and monitors you. But of course it does much more. As software like GameGuard or Warden essentially has to be a rootkit to do anything "meaningful" (for the company that rooted you, not for you), it will ** up your OS so badly, that CPU cycles are the least of your worries. Constant crashes, lockups and false positives (because hey, it's so nice having someone to watch what you're running on your own computer and punch you in the face when it thinks you shouldn't) are where you should start. Originally by:** Arctur Vallfar I'm confident CCP will balance things out fairly well,
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2010.05.17 00:05:00 - [16] Originally by: Taedrin I would just like to point out that the slippery slope argument is both a logical and rhetorical fallacy. Also, how in the world does having an anti-cheat app suddenly make things less secure? Think about things logically here. You are essentially worried about something called "Arbitrary Code Execution". In order to do such a thing, a hacker needs three things: a) Write the code to be executed in such a way that it does what the hacker wants (payload) b) Get the code onto the victim's computer (distribution) c) Get the code to be executed on the victim's computer (execution) I need go no further for an example then the malware removal redirect problem Google has right now. All the malware needs is a browser with a Google search plugin to install itself on your system. You'd ** your pants if you knew how easy it was for these apps to self-install. Quote: You are seemingly arguing that if CCP has an anti-cheat app, a hacker could hack CCP's servers and infect the anti-cheat app to steal personal information from us. However, if you think about it, if a hacker were able to hack CCP's servers, they would actually be able to do this with the EVE client code already! I'm referring to redirection of any communication this anti-cheat would have with CCP. You seem to be off in left field talking about someone rewriting EVEs client, which is pointless because they have no means to push out there changes to us (the players) without alerting CCP. Quote:** Anyways, EVE doesn't need an anti-cheat applications because virtually all significant computations are performed server side. In fact the whole monkeysphere local chat thing is the only time I have ever heard of the eve client being hacked in such a way to provide an in-game advantage. I highly doubt that there will be many more incidents of that nature in the future. They want to scan processes to autoreport macro miners, not prevent client side alterations, which is what Warden is after from what I've read.
Taedrin Gallente The Green Cross DEFI4NT	Posted - 2010.05.17 00:12:00 - [17] Originally by: Angeli Domini Originally by: Xikuan If not, please link to the publicly available data that clearly shows that spyware such as Warden does anything more than consume CPU cycles and monitors you. But of course it does much more. As software like GameGuard or Warden essentially has to be a rootkit to do anything "meaningful" (for the company that rooted you, not for you), it will ** up your OS so badly, that CPU cycles are the least of your worries. Constant crashes, lockups and false positives (because hey, it's so nice having someone to watch what you're running on your own computer and punch you in the face when it thinks you shouldn't) are where you should start. Warden is not a rootkit. WoW doesn't even require administrator privileges to install. ---------- Originally by:** Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident" Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
Ak'athra J'ador Amarr Handsome Millionaire Playboys	Posted - 2010.05.17 00:33:00 - [18] hey I am all for it. its becoming the standard in on-line gaming and eve should get it. yes its spy-ware but it can detect applications that mess with the client and the clients memory adresses. sure bots would remain, but if a good enough warden is coded (like in WoW) then mostly just OCR bots are able to go by undetected and those aren't really effective as much. unholy rage could be executed once a month...or less. give people time to develop an application and start using it. get the app, give it to warden and tell it to start looking for it. after enough idiots have been found with it...swing the banHammer. when eve was small there was no need for it...but since it has grown so much and become such a target for gold sellers...warden needs to be implemented. imagine...mining would actually become profitable again once all the 23/7 mission bots stopped running missions and reprocessing loot. sure the LP market might crash, and minerals would go crazy...but a new player who read a description in the intro thinking mining could be interesting would not be told to go train for a raven... so yeah, implement something like warden!
Nierna	Posted - 2010.05.17 00:34:00 - [19] Edited by: Nierna on 17/05/2010 00:35:15 Edited by: Nierna on 17/05/2010 00:35:00 Edited by: Nierna on 17/05/2010 00:34:31 Originally by: Taedrin Originally by: Angeli Domini Originally by: Xikuan If not, please link to the publicly available data that clearly shows that spyware such as Warden does anything more than consume CPU cycles and monitors you. But of course it does much more. As software like GameGuard or Warden essentially has to be a rootkit to do anything "meaningful" (for the company that rooted you, not for you), it will **** up your OS so badly, that CPU cycles are the least of your worries. Constant crashes, lockups and false positives (because hey, it's so nice having someone to watch what you're running on your own computer and punch you in the face when it thinks you shouldn't) are where you should start. Warden is not a rootkit. WoW doesn't even require administrator privileges to install. for me it does. else the patcher gives an error it cant update the exe file of wow. ive had no issue whatsoever with wow tho. anyway, macro users can be caught by analyzing thier behavior server side and requires no program on the client side atall. i dont see the need for any of this.
ThrashPower Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.05.17 00:36:00 - [20] Every time warden gets updated, the popular and useful wow hacks and bots get updated, only ****ed kids gets caught because they forget to update their software. We have a lot of ****s in this game though, so this kind of anti-cheat might be good for eve.

Taedrin Gallente The Green Cross DEFI4NT	Posted - 2010.05.17 01:04:00 - [21] Originally by: Nierna Edited by: Nierna on 17/05/2010 00:35:15 Edited by: Nierna on 17/05/2010 00:35:00 Edited by: Nierna on 17/05/2010 00:34:31 Originally by: Taedrin Originally by: Angeli Domini Originally by: Xikuan If not, please link to the publicly available data that clearly shows that spyware such as Warden does anything more than consume CPU cycles and monitors you. But of course it does much more. As software like GameGuard or Warden essentially has to be a rootkit to do anything "meaningful" (for the company that rooted you, not for you), it will ** up your OS so badly, that CPU cycles are the least of your worries. Constant crashes, lockups and false positives (because hey, it's so nice having someone to watch what you're running on your own computer and punch you in the face when it thinks you shouldn't) are where you should start. Warden is not a rootkit. WoW doesn't even require administrator privileges to install. for me it does. else the patcher gives an error it cant update the exe file of wow. ive had no issue whatsoever with wow tho. anyway, macro users can be caught by analyzing thier behavior server side and requires no program on the client side atall. i dont see the need for any of this. That's because you probably installed WoW in a location which requires administrator privileges to modify (Let me guess: "C:\Program Files(x86)\World of Warcraft\"?). If you install WoW in a location which does not require administrator privileges to modify then it should install/patch just fine. When I still played WoW, I actually installed it to a secondary hard drive which was configured to allow non-administrator read/write access ("F:\Games\World of Warcraft\"). The other thing that can be done is to install WoW on another computer and just copy+paste the game folder over to another computer over your network, which is something that I had to do on several occasions when I didn't feel like redownloading the install file after a reformat. I suppose things could have changed, and WoW now always requires administrative privileges to install. I know that EVE changed in this way too. EVE didn't always require admin privileges to install, but IIRC now it does. ---------- Originally by:** Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident" Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
Ryhss Caldari 42nd Airborn	Posted - 2010.05.17 01:08:00 - [22] Originally by: BeanBagKing Appearently OP plays WoW, thus the reason none of us know what it is (I had to google around). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warden_(software) Short version: Blizzards anti-cheating tool, may be compaired to punkbuster? In any case, as much as I hate bots, this doesn't sound like something I want on my PC. You gotta wonder though why WoW has 11,000,000 and we have 300,000.
Cat o'Ninetails Caldari Rancer Defence League	Posted - 2010.05.17 01:16:00 - [23] wow a lot of people sure give up their rights readily. the problem about warden is not what it does now, but what it opens the door for in the future ~~lol~~ (fake edit, there's nothing funny about erosion of rights and or liberties) x Vote Cat to stop dev hangovers ♥ My Facebook!
Krist Valentine Amarr British Armoured Division The G0dfathers	Posted - 2010.05.17 01:19:00 - [24] Originally by: Ryhss Originally by: BeanBagKing Appearently OP plays WoW, thus the reason none of us know what it is (I had to google around). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warden_(software) Short version: Blizzards anti-cheating tool, may be compaired to punkbuster? In any case, as much as I hate bots, this doesn't sound like something I want on my PC. You gotta wonder though why WoW has 11,000,000 and we have 300,000. lol im gunna guess its more to the shallow learning curve and easy to grasp objective / progression system compared to eves fucking cliff of a learning curve than the fact that eve doesnt have warden
BeanBagKing Ch3mic4l Warfare	Posted - 2010.05.17 01:29:00 - [25] Originally by: Ryhss Originally by: BeanBagKing Appearently OP plays WoW, thus the reason none of us know what it is (I had to google around). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warden_(software) Short version: Blizzards anti-cheating tool, may be compaired to punkbuster? In any case, as much as I hate bots, this doesn't sound like something I want on my PC. You gotta wonder though why WoW has 11,000,000 and we have 300,000. I don't really wonder, it's because, as the gentleman above me so eloquently put it, WoW is easy. There's something to be said for that, but IMO theres a lot more to be said about a game that requires some thought process, thus the reason I play Eve. There's also no confusion that WoW's 11mil accounts do not come as a result of Warden, so I'm wonder why you posted that.
Ocih Amarr The Program Vanguard.	Posted - 2010.05.17 01:38:00 - [26] Warden no? Serious. If CCP wanted to stop bots they could. Bots havent stopped, so?
BeanBagKing Ch3mic4l Warfare	Posted - 2010.05.17 01:46:00 - [27] Originally by: Ocih Bots havent stopped, so? http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=687
Jerid Verges Gallente The Society of Innovation The Last Stand	Posted - 2010.05.17 02:03:00 - [28] Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails edit: to pull a metaphor out of my magical hat: like 10-20 terrorists are the reason for the security theatre we now face while travelling. And now millions face misery while commuting, good job lol Because letting security get lax enough to allow another 9/11 is worse then your convenience? I have no problem with the heightened security of airports, and in fact, get through without incident all the time. In anycase, I have yet to see a sane logical reason why a Warden-type software. Most people seem to have no idea what Warden even does, as it does not go about looking through your private information. It looks at active processes on your task manager. Though it also looks for inactive known cheating rootkits.
Yann Xonogoth Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.05.17 02:17:00 - [29] Edited by: Yann Xonogoth on 17/05/2010 02:17:14 Originally by: Ryhss You gotta wonder though why WoW has 11,000,000 and we have 300,000. There's no elven corporation in EVE. For some unknown reasons it filters out 90% of the standard MMO playerbase. - Yann Xonogoth
Gavin Nordoff	Posted - 2010.05.17 04:36:00 - [30] Lots of macro's cried when a) the no local cheat got them ganked b) someone suggested warden c) all of the above



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