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Why cant EvE have something like Warden?

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Angeli Domini Amarr	Posted - 2010.05.17 04:55:00 - [31] Originally by: Jerid Verges Because letting security get lax enough to allow another 9/11 is worse then your convenience? I live in a country that as a rule of thumb doesn't bomb their own skysc**rs just so that a unpopular monkey-made-president can raise enough support in general populace to invade a bunch of middle-eastern countries and completely them up only because they happen to have some oil you could use. And behold - there are no "security" issues where I live and the term "9/11" has no meaning here. Believe it or not, there is a world outside the USA and sometimes it's a pretty nice place to live there. Try it sometimes, you will be surprised. Originally by:** Arctur Vallfar I'm confident CCP will balance things out fairly well,
Ella C'Tronix	Posted - 2010.05.17 05:13:00 - [32] Originally by: Zeke Mobius Would help alot Troll. But i'll bite. Help how? Help abuse our trust? Slow down our machines? Violate privacy and digital rights? Oh, and I almost forgot. I just made you read my signature.
Shikobo Nonu Minmatar	Posted - 2010.05.17 05:54:00 - [33] Edited by: Shikobo Nonu on 17/05/2010 05:54:35 Originally by: Jerid Verges Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails edit: to pull a metaphor out of my magical hat: like 10-20 terrorists are the reason for the security theatre we now face while travelling. And now millions face misery while commuting, good job lol Because letting security get lax enough to allow another 9/11 is worse then your convenience? I have no problem with the heightened security of airports, and in fact, get through without incident all the time. In anycase, I have yet to see a sane logical reason why a Warden-type software. Most people seem to have no idea what Warden even does, as it does not go about looking through your private information. It looks at active processes on your task manager. Though it also looks for inactive known cheating rootkits. There's a reason Cat mentioned security theater. That's because the current situation at airports is one. The same problem exists with Warden. And it would be worse with an EVE Warden, as the EVE client can't cheat. It's a thin client, and not trusted to do anything except for what you can already do in the interface.
Angeli Domini Amarr	Posted - 2010.05.17 06:05:00 - [34] Originally by: Shikobo Nonu And it would be worse with an EVE Warden, as the EVE client can't cheat. It's a thin client, and not trusted to do anything except for what you can already do in the interface. Correction: In a world of professionals, it should be a thin client. Sadly, it's a bastard cross-breed of a thin client, thick client and anything Microsoft itself would be proud to cobble together given enough pharmaceuticals and say, week or two until deadline. That's why in 2010, we still don't have a scriptable UI, heck, we don't have keyboard shortcuts for most ingame actions, as they "could be used for macroing". Otherwise you're pretty correct, but don't give CCP too much credit in this particular case, at least until it's rightfully deserved. Originally by: Arctur Vallfar I'm confident CCP will balance things out fairly well,
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.05.17 06:32:00 - [35] I'm not against the idea in principle but that assumes it will be effective and my privacy protected. I'm not competent enough to know exactly how it works and the benefits matched against the risks to me. Any implementation would have to come with an unbiased review of how it works which you will not get on forums like this. I do find it strange though that many seem to hate the idea yet are happy to run windows which happily logs and records everything you do anyway.
Angeli Domini Amarr	Posted - 2010.05.17 06:42:00 - [36] Originally by: Zartrader I do find it strange though that many seem to hate the idea yet are happy to run windows which happily logs and records everything you do anyway. - Some people run EVE on Macs. They don't want the client to run even more crappily than it currently does, nor they want it to mess with their OS. - Some people run EVE in Linux / other unices where Wine is available. They don't want the client to run even more crappily than it currently does, nor they want it to mess with their OS. - Some people log to Windows only to play EVE (hello!), not keeping anything else work/personal related there. We still don't want the Crap OS run even more crappily while rooted, than it already does while being semi-"clean". See, it's a pretty big world out there and not everything is black and white. Originally by: Arctur Vallfar I'm confident CCP will balance things out fairly well,
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.05.17 06:48:00 - [37] Edited by: Zartrader on 17/05/2010 06:51:52 Originally by: Angeli Domini Originally by: Zartrader I do find it strange though that many seem to hate the idea yet are happy to run windows which happily logs and records everything you do anyway. - Some people run EVE on Macs. They don't want the client to run even more crappily than it currently does, nor they want it to mess with their OS. - Some people run EVE in Linux / other unices where Wine is available. They don't want the client to run even more crappily than it currently does, nor they want it to mess with their OS. - Some people log to Windows only to play EVE (hello!), not keeping anything else work/personal related there. We still don't want the Crap OS run even more crappily while rooted, than it already does while being semi-"clean". See, it's a pretty big world out there and not everything is black and white. Yes I know that, does not invalidate what I said does it. I used the word 'many' not 'all'. Some will have valid and knowledge backed reasons to not want Warden but some are clearly anti anything for reasons that do not stack up with other products they use. I've yet to see any balanced discussions about these sorts of programmes on any game forum. I've tried to find a balanced guide on how these programmes work but I've failed so far. If someone could point me to one I'd be very grateful. EDIT: As an example some people state it's a root kit, others say it is not. How the hell can anyone make a reasoned view with that sort of misinformation being posted? And comparing all this to airport security with a conspiracy post thrown in for good measure tells me not to rely on forums to learn anything about it.
Angeli Domini Amarr	Posted - 2010.05.17 07:06:00 - [38] Originally by: Zartrader Yes I know that, does not invalidate what I said does it. I used the word 'many' not 'all'. That's one of the issues here. After the rootkit solution (or the slightly less invasive like Warden, which, as someone stated, doesn't execute in Ring 0, though I've heard otherwise many times before) gets introduced, the part of your equation between 'many' and 'all' will have to leave EVE. You can't seriously expect a checkbox during installation "[x] please, for me, no rootkits, spyware, crapware or anything BESIDES the pure EVE game client, ktnx". There are perfectly viable solutions for dealing with bots/macros and NONE of them belongs to client side. Ever. Originally by: Zartrader I've tried to find a balanced guide on how these programmes work but I've failed so far. They don't. You can't run a piece of code on someone else's computer and trust it when it tells you back "ok, this guy doesn't cheat". Originally by: Zartrader EDIT: As an example some people state it's a root kit, others say it is not. How the hell can anyone make a reasoned view with that sort of misinformation being posted? Ask Blizzard for a full documentation to their Warden goodness and feel free to post it here as soon as you get it. Originally by: Arctur Vallfar I'm confident CCP will balance things out fairly well,
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2010.05.17 07:17:00 - [39] Not to spoil anyones parade here, but there is actually build-in detection for common macro programs in EVE client but self-made applications that does automatic mining and stuff are not detected. You would be surprised how much people can modify EVE and make it do stuff that you would only dream. "The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of ~~gold~~crap"
arbiter reformed Minmatar The Waiting Room.	Posted - 2010.05.17 07:23:00 - [40] **** warden. remove local.

Angeli Domini Amarr	Posted - 2010.05.17 07:26:00 - [41] Originally by: Kuolematon Not to spoil anyones parade here, but there is actually build-in detection for common macro programs in EVE client but Yes, there is also a self-integrity check during every startup that takes almost forever on slow machines. Thank you, Captain Obvious. Originally by: Kuolematon self-made applications that does automatic mining and stuff are not detected. You would be surprised how much people can modify EVE and make it do stuff that you would only dream. Monkeysphere, is that you? Originally by: Arctur Vallfar I'm confident CCP will balance things out fairly well,
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.05.17 07:46:00 - [42] Originally by: Angeli Domini Originally by: Zartrader Yes I know that, does not invalidate what I said does it. I used the word 'many' not 'all'. That's one of the issues here. After the rootkit solution (or the slightly less invasive like Warden, which, as someone stated, doesn't execute in Ring 0, though I've heard otherwise many times before) gets introduced, the part of your equation between 'many' and 'all' will have to leave EVE. You can't seriously expect a checkbox during installation "[x] please, for me, no rootkits, spyware, crapware or anything BESIDES the pure EVE game client, ktnx". There are perfectly viable solutions for dealing with bots/macros and NONE of them belongs to client side. Ever. Originally by: Zartrader I've tried to find a balanced guide on how these programmes work but I've failed so far. They don't. You can't run a piece of code on someone else's computer and trust it when it tells you back "ok, this guy doesn't cheat". Originally by: Zartrader EDIT: As an example some people state it's a root kit, others say it is not. How the hell can anyone make a reasoned view with that sort of misinformation being posted? Ask Blizzard for a full documentation to their Warden goodness and feel free to post it here as soon as you get it. Thanks for that reply. I suppose its like all anti bot methods used by companies. They can't say how it works but by not doing so it raises suspicion. I did assume, clearly wrongly, that warden and similar tools were public domain and their workings known. I don't trust anyone, especially when marketing is involved, the temptation to dig into private information ' for a better user experience' would be too great for them and not something I would be happy with. All I do know is there is insufficient information to make a decision so by default I would not want it.
Ghost Wisperer	Posted - 2010.05.17 07:49:00 - [43] Originally by: Taedrin You are seemingly arguing that if CCP has an anti-cheat app, a hacker could hack CCP's servers and infect the anti-cheat app to steal personal information from us. However, if you think about it, if a hacker were able to hack CCP's servers, they would actually be able to do this with the EVE client code already! In other news. Eve client has built in mechanism for execution of downloaded python code.
Hanneshannes	Posted - 2010.05.17 07:55:00 - [44] Did anyone mention that Eve actually has Warden? Linkage
Americe Zane Gallente Fuzzy Duck Flying V Squadron Predatory Instincts	Posted - 2010.05.17 08:03:00 - [45] What would be the point of having Warden? WoW still has bots, that Warden is to stop. You will never eliminate macroers completely. Is it really worth having an invasive program on your comp to play a game, for no real benefit?
Leaving Eve	Posted - 2010.05.17 09:02:00 - [46] Originally by: Ryhss Originally by: BeanBagKing Appearently OP plays WoW, thus the reason none of us know what it is (I had to google around). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warden_(software) Short version: Blizzards anti-cheating tool, may be compaired to punkbuster? In any case, as much as I hate bots, this doesn't sound like something I want on my PC. You gotta wonder though why WoW has 11,000,000 and we have 300,000. Stupid is, as stupid does.
ChrisIsherwood	Posted - 2010.05.17 09:41:00 - [47] Originally by: Angeli Domini Originally by: Shikobo Nonu And it would be worse with an EVE Warden, as the EVE client can't cheat. It's a thin client, and not trusted to do anything except for what you can already do in the interface. Correction: In a world of professionals, it should be a thin client. Sadly, it's a bastard cross-breed of a thin client, thick client and anything Microsoft itself would be proud to cobble together given enough pharmaceuticals and say, week or two until deadline. That's why in 2010, we still don't have a scriptable UI, heck, we don't have keyboard shortcuts for most ingame actions, as they "could be used for macroing". Otherwise you're pretty correct, but don't give CCP too much credit in this particular case, at least until it's rightfully deserved. BDidn't I read in discussions about one of the recent exploits that the client chats unencrypted, So anything downstrean from the client can read, analyze or modify the data. What the server sees in not necessarily what the client sent.
Veliria	Posted - 2010.05.17 11:06:00 - [48] Originally by: Ryhss Originally by: BeanBagKing Appearently OP plays WoW, thus the reason none of us know what it is (I had to google around). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warden_(software) Short version: Blizzards anti-cheating tool, may be compaired to punkbuster? In any case, as much as I hate bots, this doesn't sound like something I want on my PC. You gotta wonder though why WoW has 11,000,000 and we have 300,000. EVE has no scandily clad elves for the kiddies to stare at.
cBOLTSON Caldari Shadow Legion. Talos Coalition	Posted - 2010.05.17 11:31:00 - [49] Edited by: cBOLTSON on 17/05/2010 11:32:19 Im sorry to go a little off subject here.... but trust me. You must have heard the saying - "Give them an inch and they take a mile" Also I believe people should go back and look into the evidence of 9/11. One thing is certian, it was a missile that hit the pentagon, it certianly wasnt a plane. I suggest you research from there people. Having a 'Strawman' / 'Scapegoat' has been the way tyrants control peoples opinion since at least **** and his Riechstag. You may also want to investigate False Flag Terrorism. In a game this is all fun! But in reality this is the worse possible thing that can happen... No eve is fine without any spyware thankyou. People enjoy the challenge of eve. Dont wow-ifiy it please. EDIT - It wont even let me type **? As in the ** leader / WW2??
Shikobo Nonu Minmatar	Posted - 2010.05.17 12:13:00 - [50] Originally by: Angeli Domini Originally by: Shikobo Nonu And it would be worse with an EVE Warden, as the EVE client can't cheat. It's a thin client, and not trusted to do anything except for what you can already do in the interface. Correction: In a world of professionals, it should be a thin client. Sadly, it's a bastard cross-breed of a thin client, thick client and anything Microsoft itself would be proud to cobble together given enough pharmaceuticals and say, week or two until deadline. That's why in 2010, we still don't have a scriptable UI, heck, we don't have keyboard shortcuts for most ingame actions, as they "could be used for macroing". Otherwise you're pretty correct, but don't give CCP too much credit in this particular case, at least until it's rightfully deserved. The client is not even remotely thick clientish. Nothing is processed client-side. All game logic happens on the servers. That probably doesn't make it any less of a mess, though. Originally by: Ghost Wisperer In other news. Eve client has built in mechanism for execution of downloaded python code. But no access to arbitrary libraries. Python itself is a very secure scripting engine. Python without the libraries needed to access the outside world cannot access the outside world. Also, when does the client download python code? There is no code in the data exchanged between the server and the client. It is a custom wrapper for python data, in predefined data types. None of those data types is "arbitrary code / bytecode".

JASON W0RTHING Nomad LLP Wayfarer Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2010.05.17 13:56:00 - [51] This is how liberty dies.....with thunderous applause.
Dhaul Minmatar Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.05.17 14:50:00 - [52] Originally by: Nika Dekaia I don't need spyware, thanks a lot. This
Angeli Domini Amarr	Posted - 2010.05.17 15:06:00 - [53] Originally by: Shikobo Nonu The client is not even remotely thick clientish. Nothing is processed client-side. All game logic happens on the servers. I see. So that's why not so long ago we were ending up unable to attack a target evidently sitting right next to you, while server was repeatedly (and rightfully) trying to convince you that it's actually smiling on the other side of the grid. On a more serious note. The issue is that CCP somehow considers the game client as their first line of defense and many people (history on more than one occasion proved them right, may she rest in peace) tend to doubt that there actually is a second line (hello Monkeysphere and others). Giving CCP another ideas like putting a rootkit into the client is the worst thing to happen since the invention of rap music, and god save us if some CCP-Nozh-wannabe accidentally trips over this topic.
Caia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.05.17 15:43:00 - [54] Warden is easy to circumvent. Anyone with a touch of programming knowledge can easily bypass it. So, as for it being helpful to get rid of cheating, no it wouldn't do too much. What it would allow CCP to do, is well, just about anything they felt like. Now, I'm not saying CCP is in the business of stealing data or invading my privacy. In fact, as long as they're making money, I doubt they could care less. But its just the fact that they could if they so wanted if Warden was installed. No thanks. If CCP starts using a program that checks my computer for stuff, then my money is going elsewhere.
Nicholas Barker Black Nova Corp IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.17 15:44:00 - [55] would this detect mouse and keyboard macros being used with eve run on a virtual machine? ------ 0800-LAG-A-NODE
SirRalph	Posted - 2010.05.17 15:48:00 - [56] Originally by: Ocih Warden no? Serious. If CCP wanted to stop bots they could. Bots havent stopped, so? Just 6000 got wtfpwn'd not very long time a go...
Amerilia	Posted - 2010.05.17 15:48:00 - [57] Originally by: Nicholas Barker would this detect mouse and keyboard macros being used with eve run on a virtual machine? no
Angeli Domini Amarr	Posted - 2010.05.17 15:53:00 - [58] Originally by: Nicholas Barker would this detect mouse and keyboard macros being used with eve run on a virtual machine? Nope, not by any means other than statistical analysis, which will be done on the server side anyway. And to beat that, just add a randomizer so your macro won't empty your Hulk's cargo hold exactly every 60 seconds and there you go, you are virtually undetectable.
Ancy Denaries	Posted - 2010.05.17 17:09:00 - [59] Originally by: Zeke Mobius Would help alot Yes, I also would like to have mandatory, hardware layer spyware in my computer while I'm gaming. What. An. Idiot. ---- The Demigodess with a Conscience - An EVE IC Blog Originally by: CCP Dropbear rofl edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
Taxesarebad	Posted - 2010.05.17 18:45:00 - [60] love how warden is suddenly and magicly spyware. WoW does use it, and to be honest i have only seen 2 macroers in the 5 months i played wow on a high pop server. -------------SIGZONE-------------- Remove Shadow.... ;)



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