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Lady InBlack
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Posted - 2010.05.18 13:40:00 -
[1]
I have just read the dev blog on the mission loot changes and rather i have it really wrong or ccp do not ever do missions.
to explain here is an example
I do a mission i loot the wrecks
I have a neutron blaster cannon I and a 425mm railgun I
what i do is quick sell these items to npc buy orders for 1.2mil in total
But ccp are going to take all meta 0 items away from loot drops because they think that will stop a loot of mins from loot drops but hats crazy because if i reprocessed these i would make less than a mil
it is the meta 1 -3 items which nobody uses and refine as they are worth less than the meta o items so if they remove the meta 0 items they will very little difference to loot influx from missions
CCP PLEASE LOOK AT THIS you are making a mistake
I expect a lot of flames because half the fourm users are morons who can't read
I have read the dev blog and i understand tthat the above is what they are doing if i have read it wrong please point it out to me as we all know ccp don't listen to us players anyway and i would love it that i have read it wrong.
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Lillian Blu
Gallente Red Federation
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Posted - 2010.05.18 14:00:00 -
[2]
Do you think it's right that mission runners produce as much minerals and miners?
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.18 14:12:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Lady InBlack
I have a neutron blaster cannon I and a 425mm railgun I
what i do is quick sell these items to npc buy orders for 1.2mil in total
I'm pretty positive those aren't NPCs buying your Meta 0 modules. Someone else is refining them if you aren't. The reason they sell for more is that Meta 1-4 modules are worth half the minerals when reprocessed.
I run missions as well, and keeping us missioners from mining with our guns is good for EVE. Not so sure about that insurance nerf, however. |
sabre906
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Posted - 2010.05.18 14:23:00 -
[4]
Edited by: sabre906 on 18/05/2010 14:24:08
Originally by: Lillian Blu Do you think it's right that mission runners produce as much minerals and miners?
Of course a typical mission runner produce far less minerial than a typical miner. The amount per person isn't even close.
It's just that there are so few miners, since you'd have to be mentally ill to mine all day in a game. The answer is to boost miners and make it less mind-numbingly boring, not gimp missioners. Let's face it, other people who actually play game for fun won't suddenly convert to mining just because mineral prices went up a bit, it'll just stimulate more macro mining.
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Lady Ayeipsia
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Posted - 2010.05.18 14:30:00 -
[5]
Originally by: sabre906 Edited by: sabre906 on 18/05/2010 14:24:08
Originally by: Lillian Blu Do you think it's right that mission runners produce as much minerals and miners?
Of course a typical mission runner produce far less minerial than a typical miner. The amount per person isn't even close.
It's just that there are so few miners, since you'd have to be mentally ill to mine all day in a game. The answer is to boost miners and make it less mind-numbingly boring, not gimp missioners. Let's face it, other people who actually play game for fun won't suddenly convert to mining just because mineral prices went up a bit, it'll just stimulate more macro mining.
Really? Wow... really? I'm sorry but I've come across whole corps that simply like to mine. I've seen one alliance attempt to mine out all the belts in one system. I'ev even picked a random spot on the map with a low number of players and stumbled into a mining group.
You are making assumptions based on how you play, when not all play in a similar manner. Some people enjoy the way the game is setup. They know that the way to get the best possible profit is to build a ship up from the ground by mining first, manufacturing parts, inventing, etc. So just because you consider mining boring does not mean the rest of the players agree with you.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.05.18 14:31:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Lady InBlack I have a neutron blaster cannon I and a 425mm railgun I
what i do is quick sell these items to npc buy orders for 1.2mil in total
àto someone who refines them.
Quote: But ccp are going to take all meta 0 items away from loot drops because they think that will stop a loot of mins from loot drops but hats crazy because if i reprocessed these i would make less than a mil
àbecause you sell to buy orders.
Quote: it is the meta 1 -3 items which nobody uses and refine as they are worth less than the meta o items so if they remove the meta 0 items they will very little difference to loot influx from missions
They are worth less because they refine to less. It all comes back to the mineral price.
Quote: CCP PLEASE LOOK AT THIS you are making a mistake
àor they've looked at the statistics of where the minerals come from, whereas you have no way of looking at this.
Also, even without the refining part, you're competing with players who actually have it as their profession to build these modules. You don't, so why should you be in a position to compete with them? Oh, and you assume that you will earn less moneyà why is that?
Btw, have you tried not looting? It tends to improve your earnings quite a lot if you don'tà ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
sabre906
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Posted - 2010.05.18 14:41:00 -
[7]
Edited by: sabre906 on 18/05/2010 14:42:31
Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia
Originally by: sabre906 Edited by: sabre906 on 18/05/2010 14:24:08
Originally by: Lillian Blu Do you think it's right that mission runners produce as much minerals and miners?
Of course a typical mission runner produce far less minerial than a typical miner. The amount per person isn't even close.
It's just that there are so few miners, since you'd have to be mentally ill to mine all day in a game. The answer is to boost miners and make it less mind-numbingly boring, not gimp missioners. Let's face it, other people who actually play game for fun won't suddenly convert to mining just because mineral prices went up a bit, it'll just stimulate more macro mining.
Really? Wow... really? I'm sorry but I've come across whole corps that simply like to mine. I've seen one alliance attempt to mine out all the belts in one system. I'ev even picked a random spot on the map with a low number of players and stumbled into a mining group.
You are making assumptions based on how you play, when not all play in a similar manner. Some people enjoy the way the game is setup. They know that the way to get the best possible profit is to build a ship up from the ground by mining first, manufacturing parts, inventing, etc. So just because you consider mining boring does not mean the rest of the players agree with you.
Of course not everyone agrees, but the overwhelming majority does. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many mission runners and so few miners, then won't be a problem.
Making mining more interactive, more challenging, less mind-numbing while more rewarding would be an incentive for people to actually go into mining. Of course, being more interactive make things more difficult for macro miners, which gimping mission runners and increase mineral prices without tweaking mining would encourage.
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Lady InBlack
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Posted - 2010.05.18 18:12:00 -
[8]
Thank you for the construtive replys they are much better than i was expecting
if the buy orders are from players then i'm wrong and it just means the meta items will rise in price making no differnce to myself
as for looting i enjoy it thats why i do it and it should be the case that if i do it it should not cost me money
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.05.18 18:21:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Lady InBlack as for looting i enjoy it thats why i do it and it should be the case that if i do it it should not cost me money
It probably already does, and this change wouldn't make any difference either way. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Angeli Domini
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.05.18 19:08:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lady InBlack as for looting i enjoy it thats why i do it and it should be the case that if i do it it should not cost me money
Some people like sex and pretty much enjoy it, that's why they do it. It should be the case that if they do it, sex should always be free, but for some reasons that I cannot explain, this approach doesn't work every time. Someone should look into this issue and fix it.
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steejans nix
Amarr 0beron Construct Rat Pack Renegades
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Posted - 2010.05.18 20:12:00 -
[11]
Originally by: sabre906 Edited by: sabre906 on 18/05/2010 14:42:31Of course not everyone agrees, but the overwhelming majority does. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many mission runners and so few miners, then won't be a problem.
So how many missioners are there compared to miners ?
Now how many people started out as miners, put a lot of time and effort into getting a well skilled hulk, good refining skills,good production skills then invested in a Pos just to realise that you can run lvl 3's in a t1 fit BC with pretty low skills and do just as well isk per hour wise and with a couple more weeks of skilling you can run lvl 4's in the same BC with a bit better equipment and do a hell of a lot better.
The thing is misisoners and ratters ( drone region ratters have a massive effect on the mineral supply but that is there bounty in effect so is hard to balance that side unless they change what the drones drop which then would have a knock on effect) are effecting the supply of minerals to a severe degree without having to invest anything in this area apart from the skill to use a destroyer and tractor beams to loot the wrecks they kill.
I'm not suggesting the nerf misisons but really all this whineing the misisoners are comming up with about being nerfed is crap, if it is no longer worth looting you will be doing more missions and getting more bounties in so it will balance out while maybe helping out the skilled miners get something more worthwhile isk wise for all their training and investment.
Us missoners really have got it easy so put up with less looting ( good thing in my opinion ) and kill more rats.
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Dacryphile
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Posted - 2010.05.19 00:00:00 -
[12]
You should change your title to, "dev response is not necessary as its clear I do not do industry."
Originally by: Doc Robertson ...take a good look at this pic and tell us which one is you.
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Goose99
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Posted - 2010.05.19 03:58:00 -
[13]
Originally by: steejans nix
Originally by: sabre906 Edited by: sabre906 on 18/05/2010 14:42:31Of course not everyone agrees, but the overwhelming majority does. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many mission runners and so few miners, then won't be a problem.
So how many missioners are there compared to miners ?
Now how many people started out as miners, put a lot of time and effort into getting a well skilled hulk, good refining skills,good production skills then invested in a Pos just to realise that you can run lvl 3's in a t1 fit BC with pretty low skills and do just as well isk per hour wise and with a couple more weeks of skilling you can run lvl 4's in the same BC with a bit better equipment and do a hell of a lot better.
The thing is misisoners and ratters ( drone region ratters have a massive effect on the mineral supply but that is there bounty in effect so is hard to balance that side unless they change what the drones drop which then would have a knock on effect) are effecting the supply of minerals to a severe degree without having to invest anything in this area apart from the skill to use a destroyer and tractor beams to loot the wrecks they kill.
I'm not suggesting the nerf misisons but really all this whineing the misisoners are comming up with about being nerfed is crap, if it is no longer worth looting you will be doing more missions and getting more bounties in so it will balance out while maybe helping out the skilled miners get something more worthwhile isk wise for all their training and investment.
Us missoners really have got it easy so put up with less looting ( good thing in my opinion ) and kill more rats.
You're missing the point. It's that you can't promote a gimped profession by nerfing others to make it look better in comparison. Make it better directly. The only way to fix it is to fix what's broken (make mining more desirable/enjoyable/profitable) not break what's working.
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Miati Leekon
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Posted - 2010.05.19 04:45:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Lady InBlack I have just read the dev blog on the mission loot changes and rather i have it really wrong or ccp do not ever do missions.
...
When I saw the beginning of your quote I couldn't resist telling you a story that happened about 3 years ago. (I have not read the other posts yet as....)
Then a player posted the same complaint, but a CCP dev was very quick to post that CCP did do missions and replied something along the line of....
Me and 3 of my mates did (something like)lvl 4 "Duo of Death" and it was no problem at all. The loot was good etc, etc, etc.
And I still have an e-mail from CCP from 4 years ago (yes they did send out e-mails then) saying something that was broken and had been posted about endlessly on the forums was "working as intended" only to find out by accident 2 years later that it had finally been fixed.
My advice is... well if I posted my advice to you I'd be banned from the forums for life.
Everyone for the last 4 years has known that CCP wants everyone in nul sec. so... that isn't going to change. And whatever goes on in nul sec, no one seems to complain about that we hear of (hush, hush, mush, mush.)
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.05.19 04:47:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Goose99 The only way to fix it is to fix what's broken (make mining more desirable/enjoyable/profitable) not break what's working.
That's what they're doing: missions providing the amount of minerals they do is a broken mechanic. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Rothrin
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Posted - 2010.05.19 06:09:00 -
[16]
Where i agree on the surface it seems like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted, i do see the upside to it. Makeing minning more profitable, will get more pleyers doing it and thus it effects ths isk farmers(sellers) wich never hurts.
I just hope more people actually take up the minning and Eve keep an eye on the numbers, because done badly this will only aid the isk farmers(sellers)
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steejans nix
Amarr 0beron Construct Rat Pack Renegades
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Posted - 2010.05.19 06:19:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Goose99
You're missing the point. It's that you can't promote a gimped profession by nerfing others to make it look better in comparison. Make it better directly. The only way to fix it is to fix what's broken (make mining more desirable/enjoyable/profitable) not break what's working.
How am I missing the point?
The main reason mining is gimped is because of the mission runners and ratters picking up the minerals when they have not invested any training or investment in that area.
Besides I really can't see this as a nerf to missioning more of a balance thing as the missioner's income won't be affected a lot at all if any.
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My Postman
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Posted - 2010.05.19 12:22:00 -
[18]
Very much what Tippia said in his/her first post.
@OP I doubt you got into the mineral prices/loot table drops/insurance fraud problem very much.
As my main is miner/missionrunner/producer i do see both sides of the story. From miners/producers view i assume trit/pye/mex will plummet, as they change the loot tables (from drone compounds) in a way i think this will happen. Furtheron, as they change insurance payout that self destructing will not be profitable anymore. The amount of self destructed ships/month might be unknown, but to believe MD elitist (Akita T and compadres) it will have effect to the market for less demand as well.
Assuming this, highsec mining will take a HUGHE hit, as low end ore will plummet. So deciding to train my main for Exhumers 5 might have been wrong, but i did make a fortune or two, mining WHs and nullsec, even highsec when i felt for it.
From mission runners side i¦ll be happy to be able to do L4¦s in my domi or my ishkur, giving me a steady income when mining in highsec will hit the bottom. Could go to WHs as well again, but hitting directional every 5 seconds while mining really makes you feel paranoid, and actually that was the reason why i left WH mining.
Just lets have a look on this two or three weeks after the patch, by that time we all will know.
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2010.05.19 12:43:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Lady InBlack
I have a neutron blaster cannon I and a 425mm railgun I
what i do is quick sell these items to npc buy orders for 1.2mil in total
You are either a troll ( a good one ) or ******.
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Gunnanmon
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2010.05.19 14:32:00 -
[20]
Originally by: sabre906 Edited by: sabre906 on 18/05/2010 14:24:08
Originally by: Lillian Blu Do you think it's right that mission runners produce as much minerals and miners?
Of course a typical mission runner produce far less minerial than a typical miner. The amount per person isn't even close.
Ya reckon? Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
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sabre906
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Posted - 2010.05.19 14:47:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Goose99 The only way to fix it is to fix what's broken (make mining more desirable/enjoyable/profitable) not break what's working.
That's what they're doing: missions providing the amount of minerals they do is a broken mechanic.
That's why it's breaking what's already working. The amount of minerials from one missioner is tiny compared to from one miner.
If one missioner gets more minerials than one miner, it would be broke, but that's not the case. What's broken is mining being so tedious and unrewarding, idiots highsec ganking you for big tears with insured ships at no real cost to themselves, and the manufacturing professtion tied into mining has its profit margins shot to hell. Mining profession is broken, and needs a fix, such as boosting solo yield, and having mining missions with high rewards, real minerials and no combat to make it worth doing by miners.
Boost mining profession, gimping other professions to make it look better in comparison won't work. Again, the amount of minerals a single mission runner gets is tiny compared to mining, and isn't a big part of their overall income. No one is going to become a miner instead because they no longer get the mission minerals. A lot of people will become miner if the profession itself gets a boost instead.
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Arwen Tyler
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Posted - 2010.05.19 19:12:00 -
[22]
Originally by: sabre906
That's why it's breaking what's already working. The amount of minerials from one missioner is tiny compared to from one miner.
You really not got a clue have you or are you just trolling ?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.05.19 19:17:00 -
[23]
Originally by: sabre906 That's why it's breaking what's already working. The amount of minerials from one missioner is tiny compared to from one miner.
The amount of minerals from one mission runner is completely irrelevant û it's the mass of minerals from the mass of mission runners that is the problem, and fixing that doesn't break anything. Quite the opposite: fixing that fixes something that isn't working the way it should. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Dacryphile
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Posted - 2010.05.19 20:14:00 -
[24]
I'm a mission runner who collects loot on the fly. Once my station container gets full (takes around a month) I sort out the meta 4s and reprocess the rest. I usually net between 1.5-2 billion isk.
Now, there is no way in hell a single miner can make that kind of money off high sec mining. So if a mission runner is making more money off collected minerals than miners, that is really indicating a broken mechanic.
Will I miss the extra income? Yeah, of course. Is the move necessary for the industrial players? Absolutely.
Originally by: Doc Robertson ...take a good look at this pic and tell us which one is you.
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Aqriue
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Posted - 2010.05.19 20:56:00 -
[25]
I understand the loot removal needs to be fixed, I looted close to 10 BS sized guns from Damsel 4 yesterday. Its really going to cut into my mission income though . I really wish they would reduce the number of meta 0 modules instead of just right out removing them and introduce sCrapmetal and tags (which I believe will probably result in more common tags anyway ). There is an absolutely huge hole that should be looked at in meta 4 cruiser weapons dropping that they are worth more then a T1 BC hull after equipping a full rack and I can't remember if I ever got a 10mn I AB or 10mn MWD I out of a wreck . Heck, why can't they just change the way refining of modules work anyway.. Only thing I can enjoy out of this nerf is even ninjas are getting the shaft, salvage price is dropping on most items and after next week they might actually have to take up another profession to make any real income
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Lord Haur
Amarr Reaction Theory
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Posted - 2010.05.19 22:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Aqriue Only thing I can enjoy out of this nerf is even ninjas are getting the shaft, salvage price is dropping on most items and after next week they might actually have to take up another profession to make any real income
Half of them already engage in the lucrative "Missioner Ganking" profession anyways
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Azurlia
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Posted - 2010.05.20 07:08:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Dacryphile Edited by: Dacryphile on 19/05/2010 20:29:58 I'm a mission runner who collects loot on the fly. Once my station container gets full (takes around a month) I sort out the meta 4s and reprocess the rest. I usually net between 1.5-2 billion isk.
Now, there is no way in hell a single miner can make that kind of money off high sec mining. So if a mission runner is making more money off collected minerals than miners, that is really indicating a broken mechanic.
Will I miss the extra income? Yeah, of course. Is the move necessary for the industrial players? Absolutely.
You're wrong. I've been running some numbers about this. Based on Grismar's handy ore chart and Halada's Mining Guide , I've determined that a dedicated hulk miner can make a LOT of isk in a month.
Single Hulk, 1800m3/strip. Mining highsec Scordite, worth 90isk/m3. [(1800m3/strip * 3 strips/hulk) / 3 minutes/strip] * 60 minutes/hour * 240 hours/month (8 hours/day) = 25,920,000 m3/month. 25,920,000 m3 * 90 isk/m3 = 2,332,800,000 isk/month, mining 8 hours straight a day. If 16 hours a day, 4,665,600,000 isk/month.
This is falling into the realm of possible macros (or extremely dedicated eve player), but it IS possible.
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Kaian Voskhod
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Posted - 2010.05.20 07:59:00 -
[28]
It look like a french goverment !
"This people don't do enough money!" "Ok, so let's ruin the others day."
I'm french =)
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Dasola
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.20 09:56:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Azurlia
You're wrong. I've been running some numbers about this. Based on Grismar's handy ore chart and Halada's Mining Guide , I've determined that a dedicated hulk miner can make a LOT of isk in a month.
Single Hulk, 1800m3/strip. Mining highsec Scordite, worth 90isk/m3. [(1800m3/strip * 3 strips/hulk) / 3 minutes/strip] * 60 minutes/hour * 240 hours/month (8 hours/day) = 25,920,000 m3/month. 25,920,000 m3 * 90 isk/m3 = 2,332,800,000 isk/month, mining 8 hours straight a day. If 16 hours a day, 4,665,600,000 isk/month.
This is falling into the realm of possible macros (or extremely dedicated eve player), but it IS possible.
So you run numbers based on theorized unlimited asteroids and no houling to stations. Nice. Facts stands. EvE's own QEN states that 40% of all minerals on market comes from mission loot reprosessing. 40% that comes from side income drops from mission running. Now thats a lot. Im pretty sure it was newer intended to be that way, that missioners would supply 4/10 of minerals needed to build anything in this game.
And yes i can fly hulk, but i also run missions since returning back to empire space. Mission runners primary income source is mission rewards and bounties from ncpc. Lets see miners: they mine, theyre primary income is that damn ore and minerals derived from them. If theyre lucky they get couple belt rats and make measly few tousand isk from bounties. Hows that compare to mission runners side income? It dosent.
If miners want extra income that would come anywhere near missionrunners side income, they need to pickup some other profession as sidejob.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.05.20 10:05:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Azurlia You're wrong. I've been running some numbers about this. Based on Grismar's handy ore chart and Halada's Mining Guide , I've determined that a dedicated hulk miner can make a LOT of isk in a month.
àand guess what, all that dedication (which, btw, is enitrely impossible to achieve) ends up earning you just shy of 10M/hà ¼ of what you'd get from missions run with the same level of dedication.
àexcept for the fact that to get your numbers, you have to run two accounts unlike the mission runner, so that's actually 5M/h. One eighth of what the equivalent mission runner would get.
So no, it's not really "a lot of ISK" on the grander scale of things. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
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