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Caleidascope Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.05.19 17:02:00 - [31] Whiner. Go play some other game.
Ontaku Oroa Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.05.19 19:46:00 - [32] It's a virtual world, live dangerously. Its not that implants are that expensive anyway. And I think that there's plenty of PvP going on despite the "inconveniences" so its hardly having a negative effect for pew pew.
Bonebreaker Monk	Posted - 2010.05.19 19:57:00 - [33] How about just making the non-learnings "unpluggable" in a station with med-service? Maybe add a fee. It wouldn't change the risk vs bonus system, it wouldn't effect prices, etc. Why only the non-learnings (pure Mem, Int, etc)? Because you should in my view get a drawback from using them and the 24h cooldown to switch between fighter and learner seems fine. Just my 2 cents
Ontaku Oroa Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.05.19 20:13:00 - [34] What's the difference from flying into combat with a faction ship decked out with expensive modules, and flying into combat with a full set of implants? None. You get the advantage from both, and you risk both. Learning implants also give you indirect advantage because you will acquire higher skills more quickly and receive bonuses from them. That said, you do not really need faction ships or implants to be good at PvP. So if you don't have ISK to spare or don't want to have an expensive head to lose, use a jumpclone or don't use implants.
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.05.19 20:27:00 - [35] Originally by: Ontaku Oroa So if you don't have ISK to spare or don't want to have an expensive head to lose, use a jumpclone or don't use implants. First off, I'm only talking about learning implants here - not combat implants. Jumpclone means that you aren't always pvping - I pvp almost every day. Right now, I lose my 2 +5's maybe once a year, it's pretty affordable. I'd like to roam around 0.0, but I'm not willing to slow down my character progression to do so (bubbles == fairly sure pod death if you're looking for an actual fight vs a gank), so I stay in lowsec. Ofc, this raises a small issue with pirate implants and learning - but the learning and effect can be decoupled. But what I've said before - if people want 0.0 to be the hard hitting can't use learning implants pvp land, alright. Thankfully, there are other parts of the game.
Ontaku Oroa Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.05.19 20:35:00 - [36] As I said, learning implants also give you an advantage, which incurs a risk. You train faster, you get skill bonuses faster and as a result you are more capable in combat. The drawback is that you can lose an expensive set of learning implants, or have to juggle a jump clone. The good thing about Eve, and what sets it apart from other MMO's out there is that the risk vs reward principle is so pervasive. Right now practically anything you do in game is based on that.
Decon Ko	Posted - 2010.05.19 20:54:00 - [37] Originally by: Lutz Major Originally by: Merrick Tolkien Changing the 24 cool down on jump clones is a bad idea, its allready very easy to get to one side of eve to the other in no time at all, the universe is meant to be big, jump clones without a cool down will make it a very very small place. I agree, but would find it nice if I could clone jump within the same station without a timer. Sounds like the ideal solution if indeed there is a problem with the mechanic as is, The OP does have a point, but yeah, risk vs reward. -- This: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1248088
unloadedx16 Firebird Squadron	Posted - 2010.05.19 21:23:00 - [38] Edited by: unloadedx16 on 19/05/2010 21:26:03 I think implants are a little unfair to pvpers, especially pvpers who live in 0.0. Many of you guys are shouting, "Risk vs. reward". "If you wanna pvp in expensive implants you gotta risk it", you say. Well you guys forgot one thing, NOT EVERYONE PVPS, and the people who don't, especially the ones living in empire (mission runners, builders, traders, etc.) are getting zero risk and all the reward. People do all sorts of things in eve because its fun for them, including things not involved in pvp. So why should this game penalize one aspect of this game to pvpers that pretty much affects EVERYONE in the game?
YpSan	Posted - 2010.05.20 00:37:00 - [39] There is just one thing I would like to see fixed and it is to have an option to unplug implants without being destroyed in the process. So, if you feel you are going into a PvP battle with little odds of surviving you can leave implants at "home". This is much more convenient than jumpclones for reasons already stated in this thread. Any player who has guts to keep implants plugged and risks losing them has an advantage over an enemy that chose to safely remove them (or plug lower quality ones) which is a fair reward for the risk taken.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.05.20 01:53:00 - [40] Use pvp specific implants? With the racial sensor strength implants being cheap as chips, I dont see a reason NOT to use them and a set of cheap hardwirings.
Ka choop	Posted - 2010.05.20 02:04:00 - [41] Originally by: unloadedx16 Edited by: unloadedx16 on 19/05/2010 21:26:03 I think implants are a little unfair to pvpers, especially pvpers who live in 0.0. Many of you guys are shouting, "Risk vs. reward". "If you wanna pvp in expensive implants you gotta risk it", you say. Well you guys forgot one thing, NOT EVERYONE PVPS, and the people who don't, especially the ones living in empire (mission runners, builders, traders, etc.) are getting zero risk and all the reward. People do all sorts of things in eve because its fun for them, including things not involved in pvp. So why should this game penalize one aspect of this game to pvpers that pretty much affects EVERYONE in the game? I live in 0.0 and I don't think it's unfair. I make tons more ISK in 0.0 then in empire. The reward? While ISKies are nice, the real reward of my bigger wealth is that I can buy more and more shiny ships that I can use to lose in PvP making my experience that much better.
J Shaft Caldari	Posted - 2010.05.20 09:59:00 - [42] Imho this thing about reducing jump clone timer, option to remove implants, or whatever else has been proposed / can be made to work, would bring more people to 0.0, thus creating more pvp and making the game more fun for everyone... In my point of view (and many younger players agree with me on this one), i am behind older players in SP and i do not have means to make enough isk for everything i need in game and have some left over for losing implants in pvp... That being said, the fact that i want to train my skills at highest possible rate (so i can get 'closer' to old(er) players directly negates my will to pvp in 0.0 and risk losing something i can not afford to lose... Simple fact will remain that if u want more newbie players to go to 0.0 for pvp, unless something is done to mitigate penalties for losing implants there, that just ain't gonna happen... There will always be some small percentage of people that will go there regardless (talking about newbies here), but vast majority will just stay in empire to maximize their skill training speed and just go to low sec if they want to pew pew (like my friends and me do)... Best regards, J.
Iteken Hotori Minmatar Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.05.20 10:20:00 - [43] Originally by: Mistress Ingrid Edited by: Mistress Ingrid on 19/05/2010 10:54:52 This probably has been discussed to death before, but the implant penalty for pvp has got to go. I don't mind losing just about any ship....I do mind losing a set of expensive implants. I don't understand your problem. Are you saying you dont' want to have too jump clone to PvP? You want to lsoe stuff, and there not to be any consequences for it? Eve PvP is all about risk & reward. next, peopel will want their ships to re-spawn in the station when you die as well, or to be cheaper, so you don't lose anything when you lose? You remember that line "Don't fly anything you can't afford to lose"? well that applies to clones too. if you can't afford to lose "expensive implants" don't fit them. (yes, i've lost crystal clones PvP'ing, and haven't replaced them. I regularly lose Rogue'd pods. Get over it. It sounds like the main thing that stops you from PVP'ing regularly is you are a carebear and a coward.
SenshiMaru Fleet of Doom Phoenix Virtue	Posted - 2010.05.20 11:42:00 - [44] Edited by: SenshiMaru on 20/05/2010 11:43:22 Originally by: Iteken Hotori I don't understand your problem. Are you saying you dont' want to have too jump clone to PvP? You want to lsoe stuff, and there not to be any consequences for it? Eve PvP is all about risk & reward. next, peopel will want their ships to re-spawn in the station when you die as well, or to be cheaper, so you don't lose anything when you lose? You remember that line "Don't fly anything you can't afford to lose"? well that applies to clones too. if you can't afford to lose "expensive implants" don't fit them. (yes, i've lost crystal clones PvP'ing, and haven't replaced them. I regularly lose Rogue'd pods. Get over it. It sounds like the main thing that stops you from PVP'ing regularly is you are a carebear and a coward. I agree 100% with this statement...besides, even with the current 24 hour jump clone timer, you really don't lose that much training time. If you cannot afford to lose something, don't use it, because it will be lost at some point. Nice end-statement btw. Edit: If you're that concerned with the timer, self-destruct your implant-less pvp jump clone.
Zeta Zhul Caldari	Posted - 2010.05.20 12:03:00 - [45] Originally by: SenshiMaru ... I agree 100% with this statement...besides, even with the current 24 hour jump clone timer, you really don't lose that much training time. If you cannot afford to lose something, don't use it, because it will be lost at some point. Nice end-statement btw. Edit: If you're that concerned with the timer, self-destruct your implant-less pvp jump clone. Heh. That is a solution to the 24hr timer isn't it? Want to pvp on your terms in a jumpclone and not lose those expensive implants? Die. Bravo FTW! ----- place witty signature line here
Vjorn Angannon Fleet Escort Services	Posted - 2010.05.20 12:16:00 - [46] Originally by: J Shaft In my point of view (and many younger players agree with me on this one), i am behind older players in SP and i do not have means to make enough isk for everything i need in game and have some left over for losing implants in pvp... That being said, the fact that i want to train my skills at highest possible rate (so i can get 'closer' to old(er) players directly negates my will to pvp in 0.0 and risk losing something i can not afford to lose... I am one of the "newer" players (been playing since July 09). At first I was vastly overcome by the fact that there are players that have 70-100 + SP. I was also extremely lucky to be taken into a WH corp my 6th week into game, and except for a few missioning forays to grind standing for a JC, or some quick forays into lowsec/nullsec, my time has been spent inside of w-space (0.0). My current CEO has been playing since 2003. One of the things he has been trying to teach me, and am finally realizing, is that altho SP is nice....and even important!.....SP is not really the most important skill one can learn. Experience, knowledge of different ships, tactics.....things the person behind the keyboard needs to know......that's what is important. I have risked....and lost 3 sets of +4's so far. So what? they are just pixels. Isk is just pixels. Ships are just pixels. But the mistakes that I make, and hopefully learn from, the fun that I have flying with my mates, the fights that I get into,all translates into experience....which in many cases, can count more than SP, or even a few enhancing implants...my reward. (Ok lol, there is isk to be made in w-space too) Vj
Iteken Hotori Minmatar Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.05.20 12:27:00 - [47] Originally by: Vjorn Angannon I have risked....and lost 3 sets of +4's so far. So what? they are just pixels. Isk is just pixels. Vj This hundreds of times over. hands up if you've lost a set of LG Slaves / Frystals / +5's / Snakes, Whatever, ******edly? eg: warp to tian at 10, in 250+ fleet. Jump into hostile system. 500+ with bubbles... blackscreen... realise you are in Crystal clone because you are stupid. Giggle. The only change implants need, is for them to be on Pod KM's.
Father Yarrr Logistic Nightmare	Posted - 2010.05.20 12:33:00 - [48] Edited by: Father Yarrr on 20/05/2010 12:33:59 Originally by: Iteken Hotori Originally by: Vjorn Angannon I have risked....and lost 3 sets of +4's so far. So what? they are just pixels. Isk is just pixels. Vj This hundreds of times over. hands up if you've lost a set of LG Slaves / Frystals / +5's / Snakes, Whatever, ****edly? eg: warp to tian at 10, in 250+ fleet. Jump into hostile system. 500+ with bubbles... blackscreen... realise you are in Crystal clone because you are stupid. Giggle. The only change implants need, is for them to be on Pod KM's. A nice change would be for lo grades to be +3s. I mean for the price they certainly should be Edit: +1 for implants on killmails ----------------------------------------------- Cause they know your a pirate when they hear you say....... YARRR**
Othran Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.05.20 13:10:00 - [49] Implants in low-sec PvP make more sense than pimping the ship. Unless you are drunk/unlucky/"lagged" then the chances of losing your pod are minimal. Implants in 0.0 depends on whether you're staggeringly rich or need to focus on a specific role. For me I will fit the minimum required for fleet work and the maximum I can afford for solo work. The risks to pods are significantly higher for fleet work (lag, dodgy comms/intel/etc) but not that much higher for solo if you know what you're doing. Eg - I'd fit HG Snakes in lowsec but I'd probably look for a sensible alternative to the Omega in 0.0 (unless I'm staggeringly rich, which sadly I don't appear to be).
Tadeu718	Posted - 2010.05.20 17:45:00 - [50] Newbs and more developed characters shouldnt have a problem earning isk. Its easy, if your worried about buying up new implants cause of potential podding then your first priority shouldnt be PvP. There are plenty of things to ensure that you dont lose alot of training time... Setup a PvP JC with +3s or 4s whatever you can afford, so you dont lose very much training time. Keep your +5s or whatever in your missioning/ earning isk JC. If your newb and have problems generating isk, then your not being social. Talk to people and tag along on lvl 4 runs. People will get you in to clean up after missions which can potentially be very fruitful. At least do this till you can solo 4s yourself. As for changing mechanics for JC.. stop crying either fly out with implants or jump into a JC with cheap/ no implants. Cause in the end your really just complaining which isnt beneficial.
unloadedx16 Firebird Squadron	Posted - 2010.05.20 19:13:00 - [51] Guys look at the bigger picture though: Why should implants, that affect EVERYONE in eve penalize one aspect of eve? Think about this a little. 1)Pvping is only 1 aspect of eve. 2)Implants affect everyone in eve. 3)Not everyone likes to pvp. 4)This issue only targets people who lose pods regularly, pvpers (yes other people people get podded as well but not as frequently as pvpers) Looking at the bigger picture in terms of implants, pvpers get 'high risk low rewards' while non-pvpers get 'low risk and high rewards'.
Dodgy Past Amarr Debitum Naturae BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2010.05.20 19:39:00 - [52] Originally by: Demolishar Don't lose a "set" of expensive implants. Just have 2 in and focus training on whatever those 2 implants affect. This means only 20M loss for +3s, and 40M for +4s which is pretty reasonable tbh. This works for me. Even in null I very rarely get podded, if you're in the middle of a bubble then chances are that it's at the beginning of the fight and they'll be too busy killing real targets. Towards the end of a fight people start going after the pods in which case you'll probably be losing and should have got your arse to the edge of the bubble by then. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- you seem determined to turn it into ******* Hollyoaks for neckbeards.
Shiho Weitong Caldari Punken Dredophiles	Posted - 2010.05.20 19:58:00 - [53] Originally by: Iteken Hotori Originally by: Vjorn Angannon I have risked....and lost 3 sets of +4's so far. So what? they are just pixels. Isk is just pixels. Vj This hundreds of times over. hands up if you've lost a set of LG Slaves / Frystals / +5's / Snakes, Whatever, ****edly? eg: warp to tian at 10, in 250+ fleet. Jump into hostile system. 500+ with bubbles... blackscreen... realise you are in Crystal clone because you are stupid. Giggle. The only change implants need, is for them to be on Pod KM's. HG Snakes. Twice... And it's still only isk which in comparison is pixels, and to compound that fact, they are pixels owned by CCP. ----------- Why is it called common sense, when it's clearly very rare. I had a mind once, but alas, I seem to have forgotten where I left it. Originally by:** Tchell Dahhn You win, and thank you.
unloadedx16 Firebird Squadron	Posted - 2010.05.20 20:34:00 - [54] Originally by: Shiho Weitong Originally by: Iteken Hotori Originally by: Vjorn Angannon I have risked....and lost 3 sets of +4's so far. So what? they are just pixels. Isk is just pixels. Vj This hundreds of times over. hands up if you've lost a set of LG Slaves / Frystals / +5's / Snakes, Whatever, ******edly? eg: warp to tian at 10, in 250+ fleet. Jump into hostile system. 500+ with bubbles... blackscreen... realise you are in Crystal clone because you are stupid. Giggle. The only change implants need, is for them to be on Pod KM's. HG Snakes. Twice... And it's still only isk which in comparison is pixels, and to compound that fact, they are pixels owned by CCP. Yes they're pixels, but those pixels have some value behind them. For some many many hrs of value. You wouldn't care or be playing this game if your mind didn't assign some value to those pixels. In fact you wouldn't care about anything in front of a screen according to your argument if pixels are worth nothing.
Raimo Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.05.20 21:36:00 - [55] Originally by: Iteken Hotori Originally by: Vjorn Angannon I have risked....and lost 3 sets of +4's so far. So what? they are just pixels. Isk is just pixels. Vj This hundreds of times over. hands up if you've lost a set of LG Slaves / Frystals / +5's / Snakes, Whatever, ******edly? o/ ----------------------------------------------- www.eve-arena.com
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition	Posted - 2010.05.20 21:52:00 - [56] Originally by: Raimo Originally by: Iteken Hotori Originally by: Vjorn Angannon I have risked....and lost 3 sets of +4's so far. So what? they are just pixels. Isk is just pixels. Vj This hundreds of times over. hands up if you've lost a set of LG Slaves / Frystals / +5's / Snakes, Whatever, ****edly? o/ 0/ ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by:** Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Orion Shadowmaker Amarr Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.05.20 22:12:00 - [57] I agree the current system seems to be working but... Lowering the cost of implants by maybe 25% would really help a ton! It would help keep PVP w/implants more active in my opinion Orion Shadowmaker Go Blues!
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.05.21 05:22:00 - [58] If you do this you will crash the implant market. Some people make a lot of money off of implants. Also, I did 0.0 fleet fights in +4's. HTFU. When I lose a 200m isk ship the last thing I'm worrying about is "oh no, my 35m isk pair of +4's..." +5's are not proportionately better; they're better, but at an extreme premium. You may think you're learning 'oh my god super fast' with +5's in. The difference between +4's and +5's is the difference between a naked clone and +1's. That is to say, not much.
Cathy Drall Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2010.05.21 09:01:00 - [59] Edited by: Cathy Drall on 21/05/2010 09:04:10 Well it comes down to a few things. facts: -some people have +5s -some people want to optimize their skilltraining (especially newer players) -70%+ of the EVE population hardly ever leaves highsec -for some players 100 million is a lot of money questions: -do you want more people in low/nulsec? -do you want to facilitate pvping? -do you want to decrease the costs a bit? If you are an old player with a lot of money and SP it's no big deal. If you're a new player or a more casual player (who doesn't have that much time to grind ISK) it is. If you answer all the questions with "no" then I understand you may be against the OP's idea. But I don't have the idea that it is the case with many of the people who are against. Originally by: Space Pinata +5's are not proportionately better; they're better, but at an extreme premium. You may think you're learning 'oh my god super fast' with +5's in. The difference between +4's and +5's is the difference between a naked clone and +1's. That is to say, not much. 100sp/hour makes a difference. And the difference between a naked clone and one with +1s is 45 million ISK; the difference between a +4 and +5 is a bit more so that's not a valid comparison.
Omir Kajil Gallente The POD Collective	Posted - 2010.05.21 10:10:00 - [60] I'm recalling now the ever popular addage of "never fly what you can't afford to lose" or "only fly something if you don't mind losing your investment in it" or however you want to say it. The same could be said about implants, particularly if you pvp. In any case I've noticed that it helps to have more than just one, two, or even four ships lying around fitted and ready to go, as losing ships is inevitable. Suppose you did the same with implants? Have extra implants ready so that when you get podded (I have yet to be podded in lowsec) you don't lose any training time at all. Or have jump clones already equipped with a pair of implants. Whether it be the same implants or a different pair so you can say "ahp, I guess I'm gonna train this for awhile now instead!" or whatever would be up to you. I guess what I'm trying to say is this... We can all itch and moan about the obstacles we have or we can use the tools at hand to come up with solutions. sure it's not perfect, but nothing ever is. If you want everything to be perfectly tailored to your wants and needs, logoffski for a couple weeks and go live real life, and come back and we can discuss the idea of perfect. disclaimer: this post isn't really directed at anyone, just my two cents in the form of rhetorical logic But I digress. This one time at fat camp, i was flying a dominix, and then I was so hungry that i ate 3 planets and collapsed into a black hole, which ate my sig.

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