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Arugas Koken
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Posted - 2010.05.26 01:38:00 -
[1]
Many mining bots require Widescreen to check if the lasers are on.
"The reason it's so hard for bots to check is because the pretty green circle changes depending on where you are in relation to the sun. The glare from the sun creates lighter patches on the circle, making it impossible to use pixel detection or an image for it to compare to. There is also the problem that half of the menu's and stuff are slightly transparent, making it also stupidly difficult for pixel detection and imagesearch functions." - botter/bot builder
It seems that previous patches have put the macro miners out of business for a few days/weeks after deployment due to changes in menu layouts and such. I have a feeling that the removal of widescreen may put them out of business for a bit longer this time around.
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Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
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Posted - 2010.05.26 09:16:00 -
[2]
For at least one application this will be effective at shutting it down. There are always anti-macro counter measures with each patch. I'm hoping that the results are both effective and hilarious.
 Originally by: Crawe DeRaven
this thread is obviously going places
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TheOldBrutos
Minmatar
Yarrbear Inc.
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Posted - 2010.05.26 09:50:00 -
[3]
Hope next hulkageddon will allow us to pwn 80% of true miners and 20% of elite macroers... see you in belt 
http://eve-pk.net
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Lao Dangtze
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Posted - 2010.05.26 09:53:00 -
[4]
I wish they would get serious about getting rid of macros and have a captcha randomly check people who are doing repetitive tasks.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.05.26 10:25:00 -
[5]
That bot coder has to smarten up and look around him.
Where I work we have encountered and fixed similar issues 3 years ago, there's at least one open source solution available.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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OPX2
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Posted - 2010.05.26 10:55:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
That bot coder has to smarten up and look around him.
Where I work we have encountered and fixed similar issues 3 years ago, there's at least one open source solution available.
How stupid is your boss, if he hired you?! On EvE Forum?! Reported
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.05.26 11:03:00 -
[7]
I would have thought that the logserver output would be more than adequate for building mining bots. But what would I know?
The idea that the glare from the local star messes things up for macro miners seems a little far fetched.
[Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Borgh Brainbasher
Noir.
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Posted - 2010.05.26 12:05:00 -
[8]
Originally by: OPX2
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
That bot coder has to smarten up and look around him.
Where I work we have encountered and fixed similar issues 3 years ago, there's at least one open source solution available.
How stupid is your boss, if he hired you?! On EvE Forum?! Reported
you know, there might be perfectly legal ways to macro-ify parts image detection. maybe like bluescreen technology and general CGI in the movies.
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Warning: You are on the pvp only server. |
shakedatazz
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Posted - 2010.05.26 12:46:00 -
[9]
The idea that the glare from the local star messes things up for macro miners seems a little far fetched.
Agreed, as I understand it, macro programs use coordinates and do not rely on what you can actually see...
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OPX2
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Posted - 2010.05.26 13:22:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Borgh Brainbasher
Originally by: OPX2
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
That bot coder has to smarten up and look around him.
Where I work we have encountered and fixed similar issues 3 years ago, there's at least one open source solution available.
How stupid is your boss, if he hired you?! On EvE Forum?! Reported
you know, there might be perfectly legal ways to macro-ify parts image detection. maybe like bluescreen technology and general CGI in the movies.
I suppose I should have given him the benefit of doubt, but nevertheless this is an opportunity for the CCP to investigate further.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.05.26 13:31:00 -
[11]
Originally by: OPX2
I suppose I should have given him the benefit of doubt, but nevertheless this is an opportunity for the CCP to investigate further.
Yes because we all know that the forum accusations are the best starting place for investigations. (Nothing like justifying putting your foot in your mouth is there?)
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.05.26 13:51:00 -
[12]
OMG they are removing that widescreen black bar thing... NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
I don't run bots because I don't mine but I LIKED those black bars because it's less screen to render on this horrible laptop I have :( They really did make a difference in performance.
Besides why wouldn't they just force the view to be all the way up or down. Since all the belts are on the same plan as the sun, it's no feat to simple left+right mouse button, push forward for 1 second. Done. No Sun effects.
There is a believe I have... If someone wants to do something you don't like, they are going to do it anyway, dumping time, money, effort into slowing them down, at the expense of the opinions of those that do what you want is a bad bad, poor choice and business practice..
Amarr for Life |
RAW23
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Posted - 2010.05.26 13:52:00 -
[13]
Originally by: OPX2
Originally by: Borgh Brainbasher
Originally by: OPX2
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
That bot coder has to smarten up and look around him.
Where I work we have encountered and fixed similar issues 3 years ago, there's at least one open source solution available.
How stupid is your boss, if he hired you?! On EvE Forum?! Reported
you know, there might be perfectly legal ways to macro-ify parts image detection. maybe like bluescreen technology and general CGI in the movies.
I suppose I should have given him the benefit of doubt, but nevertheless this is an opportunity for the CCP to investigate further.
Assuming VV hasn't changed jobs recently she doesn't work in a macro-mining factory (she has been quite open in the past about discussing her employment in the SCC lounge). But what the hell! Burn the witch!! Unfounded accusations are always the best place to start an inquisition from.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.05.26 14:34:00 -
[14]
I just think it sucks because I've always played with widescreen active. The black background is ideal for me to keep track of targets and chat channels.
Additionally, I've repeatedly asked CCP about having some sort of Sun Occlusion option. I know that occlusion is possible as I regularly rotate the screen to make it happen with whatever object is handy. There are a number of medical conditions that can be aggravated, or be visually impairing, from excessive use of glare.
So, yeah, losing widescreen only brings about more glarable area on the screen.
As to macro miners, lets not kid ourselves. They'll be updating and back to work faster than CCP will get the patch stable.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente
League of Gentlemen
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Posted - 2010.05.26 14:36:00 -
[15]
Originally by: RAW23
Assuming VV hasn't changed jobs recently she doesn't work in a macro-mining factory (she has been quite open in the past about discussing her employment in the SCC lounge). But what the hell! Burn the witch!! Unfounded accusations are always the best place to start an inquisition from.
If VV weighs the same as a duck...
(cue riotous mob)
Regarding high-sec mining:
Originally by: AmarrettoDiAmarr
3-4 million ISK/hr is perhaps .15 0r .20 US$/hr; not quite prison wages and you are around less honest people.
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Sugar Jugs
Juggalicious
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Posted - 2010.05.26 15:02:00 -
[16]
I dont play with the black bars, but I do play at widescreen resolution (so I can have wallet orders tab/market side by side, and yet tile up my multiple client windows).
Are they removing these widescreen resolution options? I dont understand and patch notes are not clear on this either. :/
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.05.26 15:12:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sugar Jugs
I dont play with the black bars, but I do play at widescreen resolution (so I can have wallet orders tab/market side by side, and yet tile up my multiple client windows).
Are they removing these widescreen resolution options? I dont understand and patch notes are not clear on this either. :/
They are removing the Black Bars options which emulated the "Widescreen" look at any resolution. Even on a wide screen monitor.
The Laptop I play on is 1440x800, which is an option, but the "Widescreen" option added black bars to the top and bottom of the screen. It is important to note that only the "Space" part screen was effected, The hud, windows, chat window etc all where overlays. As Shar said it did keep the chat window background constant making it easier to read.
Removal of this feature is like removal of the "Load Station" button, CCP's laziness to remove the feature that no longer works in a new patch then actually fix it :( to the CSM FORUM!!!
Amarr for Life |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.05.26 16:21:00 -
[18]
Originally by: OPX2
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
That bot coder has to smarten up and look around him.
Where I work we have encountered and fixed similar issues 3 years ago, there's at least one open source solution available.
How stupid is your boss, if he hired you?! On EvE Forum?! Reported
Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, aren't us?
Too bad there's no "lmgtfy.com" for EvE-search, otherwise you'd find out about my automotive production lines related job, including coding SCADAs / HMI. Incredibly enough, that stuff also involves developing solutions involving artificial vision, both hardware and software, via smart cameras or frame-grabber + software reconoissance software.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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MailDeadDrop
The Collective
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Posted - 2010.05.26 19:27:00 -
[19]
Hey Chribba! Chribba Chribba (has to occur 3 times I'm told). See if you can create a page equivalent to lmgtfy.com, but directed to Eve-Search.com. Should actually be pretty easy, and definitely LOL-worthy.
MDD |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2010.05.26 20:22:00 -
[20]
Actually one time is enough 
And as far as the site goes... I dunno what's asked really (+ I'm drinking beers to sustain the wait... could be the reason for my lack of understanding) |
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.26 20:49:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Chribba
Actually one time is enough
And as far as the site goes... I dunno what's asked really (+ I'm drinking beers to sustain the wait... could be the reason for my lack of understanding)
Let me Google it for you Chribba.
(We would love an EVE-Search version of the website.)
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thugbooty
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Posted - 2010.05.27 06:10:00 -
[22]
Couldn't you just open the map and right-click drag the stars off and you'd have a totally black screen? For umm... mineral gathering purposes.  |
Damon Pierce
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Posted - 2010.05.27 06:38:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Chribba
Actually one time is enough
And as far as the site goes... I dunno what's asked really (+ I'm drinking beers to sustain the wait... could be the reason for my lack of understanding)
Wait, how the ****? How did he.... how did you......
/o\ |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.05.27 09:25:00 -
[24]
Getting back on topic:
My "day zero" bot findings
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Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
GauteGodager
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Posted - 2010.05.27 11:25:00 -
[25]
I find it hard to believe that widescreen change makes botting harder but it was surprising to see some ice belts empty yesterday & today, only 2-3 macks/hulks instead of the usual 30+ army
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Antralas Teraak
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Posted - 2010.05.27 13:06:00 -
[26]
Actually it makes botting harder as far as I know most bots used the black bars to set themseles up + they moved the undock button so might take the bots an wek to come back or so but I dont think its a solid solution after al
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Arugas Koken
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Posted - 2010.05.28 00:04:00 -
[27]
It seems they have already found a fix for a very popular free bot. It seems they are having a few issues but it is functional. 
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.05.28 06:46:00 -
[28]
Yes, it looks like some bots work again. Today there are 3 times more botters than yesterday.
The "ice mining population" is still 40% less than normal, apparently some (including the guy with 9 botted Machinaws I talked about in the general forum) are still stranded.
For the little I know, a widespread bot program that got fixed is mostly single client oriented, the one still broken is the one allowing for many clients running at the same time.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
Tehg Rhind
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Posted - 2010.05.28 07:07:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Yes, it looks like some bots work again. Today there are 3 times more botters than yesterday.
The "ice mining population" is still 40% less than normal, apparently some (including the guy with 9 botted Machinaws I talked about in the general forum) are still stranded.
For the little I know, a widespread bot program that got fixed is mostly single client oriented, the one still broken is the one allowing for many clients running at the same time.
Couldn't they link activity to the macro program breakdowns/fixes. Like if someone is on 18 hours a day 7 days a week except when the program doesn't work, boom. Guess there could be people that would be exceptions to that, but...I dunno I think given enough breakdown/fix cycles you could easily identify who was macroing
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.05.28 07:14:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Tehg Rhind
Couldn't they link activity to the macro program breakdowns/fixes. Like if someone is on 18 hours a day 7 days a week except when the program doesn't work, boom. Guess there could be people that would be exceptions to that, but...I dunno I think given enough breakdown/fix cycles you could easily identify who was macroing
You'd get a lot of false positives that way. Last patch I couldn't get into Eve because of hardware issues though I know that <blush> I have a tendency to be logged in for long periods of time. (I forget to log off when I run out to handle a call.) Myself, I think the idea of some form of captcha would work.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 07:17:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Tehg Rhind
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Yes, it looks like some bots work again. Today there are 3 times more botters than yesterday.
The "ice mining population" is still 40% less than normal, apparently some (including the guy with 9 botted Machinaws I talked about in the general forum) are still stranded.
For the little I know, a widespread bot program that got fixed is mostly single client oriented, the one still broken is the one allowing for many clients running at the same time.
Couldn't they link activity to the macro program breakdowns/fixes. Like if someone is on 18 hours a day 7 days a week except when the program doesn't work, boom. Guess there could be people that would be exceptions to that, but...I dunno I think given enough breakdown/fix cycles you could easily identify who was macroing
See, there's a quite important factor in this.
While CCP have interest in squashing bots, this is a corporate objective. Something the Big Brass say at their meetings.
Then come the employees, and they do care, but not "beyond duty". They do what they are paid to do, probably something more but they don't go to heroic lengths like a fan or a very active player would do. So they wait for "incident based reports" of botters, and let statistics build up and then perform large "Unholy Rage" alike general operations.
For the performance you ask for, you have to seek out the MUDs or the 10k players MMOs, made by enthusiasts not just to make a living or pay shareholders.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
Chaos Dreams
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Posted - 2010.05.28 07:51:00 -
[32]
I don't know, I don't mine but I'd absolutely hate having some stupid capcha box pop up, no matter what I was doing. I think a better answer would be to leave current mining the way it is for those who like it this way, who want something semi-afk to do while they work, watch a movie, ect.
Then introduce new mining activities that require much more interaction and possible risk, but at the same time are MUCH more profitable. They could revamp the mining-mission system so it's worth doing, put in grav sites that escalate, the comet mining that's been mentioned before.
But make it actually interactive and engaging, so you can't just sit there while the lasers cycle and you wait till your hold fills up. That way both sides are served. Those who just want some meager income while they read a book or play xbox can continue mining as they are. The rest can do something more interesting, and make more ISK while they do it.
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clixoras
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Posted - 2010.05.28 08:20:00 -
[33]
i did a 'fly-by' through a known botting system yesterday and it was empty 'cept for some bored pirates. I guess it takes a while before the macro's are adjusted . or???
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Arugas Koken
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Posted - 2010.05.28 08:55:00 -
[34]
One solution is to reduce the size of all asteroids in empire belts. Small enough that if a hulk was used to mine them they would waste the majority of a mining laser cycle. If they stop/started lasers periodically to accommodate for the reduced sizes they would quickly drain their cap.
This means the belts would still be there for the people new to mining and much less profitable for the macro miners. The reduced roid sizes aren't going to bother the noobs in their frigs.
Then its just a matter of seeding systems with numerous, easily scanned, low grade grav sites for the active miners.
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Llyandrian
Amarr
Livestock Science Exchange
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Posted - 2010.05.28 11:52:00 -
[35]
Not just minerals, bu ice products have seen a big drop in volume and a 30% price rise over last 24 hours.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.05.28 13:07:00 -
[36]
Looks like they fixed the multi-client mining bot at last.
Local spike and here we go: the Over 9000 Macks guy is back and he's not the only one 
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
GauteGodager
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Posted - 2010.05.28 13:28:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Myself, I think the idea of some form of captcha would work.[/justify]
CAPTCHAs check, most of the time go, from quite innefficient to really annoying.
If it's designed to not be too annoying for the user (either by difficulty of reading it or high enough time interval between 2 checks) then it's easy to bypass for a bot : cracking the captcha itself, finding some loophole in the check (like relogging every now and then to reset it), etc ...
If it's designed to really stop bots, then you will get a lot of annoyed users. They'll whine all over forums, threaten to cancel (and maybe do it), ...
Captchas for registering on a forum/site can be annoying for the user (up to some point) because a legit user only has to go through it once.
The only decent way of fighting macros is to remove the need (or ability) to use them. As long as mining is about docking out, warping to belt, select an asteroid in the list and press F1-F2-F3 it will get macro'ed 
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Tehg Rhind
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Posted - 2010.05.28 17:54:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Tehg Rhind
Couldn't they link activity to the macro program breakdowns/fixes. Like if someone is on 18 hours a day 7 days a week except when the program doesn't work, boom. Guess there could be people that would be exceptions to that, but...I dunno I think given enough breakdown/fix cycles you could easily identify who was macroing
You'd get a lot of false positives that way. Last patch I couldn't get into Eve because of hardware issues though I know that <blush> I have a tendency to be logged in for long periods of time. (I forget to log off when I run out to handle a call.) Myself, I think the idea of some form of captcha would work.
Yeah you would get tons of false positives, but you could use it as one of a number of screening metrics. I remember some research I was doing at work where it was impossible/prohibitively difficult to directly prove something, so we designed like 8 screening metrics and ran them all. If something passed enough of them we had enough proof to move forward.
Same thing could be implemented here. You could also just include small patches at down time that were only intended to break macro codes.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.06.05 07:57:00 -
[39]
I think this de-facto 'bot-nerf' has also impacted ice products. I dabble in ice products mainly Heavy water and Liquid ozone and mostly outside jita.
I expected to see a pre & post patch spikes, from POS owners stocking up and a day or two of missed mining operations.
Then a steady decline as mineral miners shifted to ice mining. The patch delay upset that time frame a little and it turned into a plateau.
However that price rise seems to be continuing, a recovery of sorts and small but steady rise in prices across the market. The character of the sell orders has also changed. This market was dominated by large orders, millions of unit orders, no I'm seeing a quite a few very small sells of a few thousands units.
I thinking that some mineral miners have shifted into ICE, but some of the botters perhaps haven't returned.
The other possibility is the need to stock up all these new POS built from PI parts.
Not really sure which is more likely.
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Zeta Zhul
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.06.05 21:43:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Lao Dangtze
I wish they would get serious about getting rid of macros and have a captcha randomly check people who are doing repetitive tasks.
*this*
-----
place witty signature line here |
Zeta Zhul
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.06.05 21:52:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Originally by: OPX2
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
That bot coder has to smarten up and look around him.
Where I work we have encountered and fixed similar issues 3 years ago, there's at least one open source solution available.
How stupid is your boss, if he hired you?! On EvE Forum?! Reported
Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, aren't us?
Too bad there's no "lmgtfy.com" for EvE-search, otherwise you'd find out about my automotive production lines related job, including coding SCADAs / HMI. Incredibly enough, that stuff also involves developing solutions involving artificial vision, both hardware and software, via smart cameras or frame-grabber + software reconoissance software.
Real world programming jobs that don't involve developing bots for EVE!?? The Hell you say!
Frankly the oddest part of the whole thing is that you didn't include any references about being a developer of bots in the first place. Well that and the guy being clueless enough not to realize that the whole segment of the programming industry associated with robotic vision, or real time image processing if preferred, is pretty important to all areas of industry and science.
-----
place witty signature line here |
Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
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Posted - 2010.06.09 05:10:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Rip Minner on 09/06/2010 05:12:27
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Yes, it looks like some bots work again. Today there are 3 times more botters than yesterday.
The "ice mining population" is still 40% less than normal, apparently some (including the guy with 9 botted Machinaws I talked about in the general forum) are still stranded.
For the little I know, a widespread bot program that got fixed is mostly single client oriented, the one still broken is the one allowing for many clients running at the same time.
My guess then would be eve-miner is working again as its more of a script based macro that only runs one at a time per pc. And the one allowing for many clients is probly gost-miner and it is a OCR based macro.
Edit: as a side note I just checked there site ghost miner and they are claiming a fix is in with new instrutions and a patch. So your mack friend will probly be back in bussness next time you look.
Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |
PinkFish
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Posted - 2010.06.09 12:06:00 -
[43]
Try bumping the miners far, far away from the roids.
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