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Sanjuro
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Posted - 2004.12.08 23:20:00 -
[1]
I've been paying out alot lately in broker fees and it has me wondering how low we can get the broker rate down. I know the broker relations skill takes it down 5% per level, and I know standing lowers it, but I've never seen the actual formula that determines your final rate. If anybody knows what it is or where I could find it, I'd greatly appreciate a nudge in that direction. If not, I was hoping some other players would be willing to post their current broker rates along with their stats affecting their rate.
This isn't meant to be a contest to see who has the lowest rate (although if it helps get some responses, knock yourself out  ). I'm more curious to see if it's possible to get the broker fee down to zero % with high standing and maxed skill, or if there is always going to be a minimum rate regardless of standing and skill.
This is currently what I have with characters on my 2 accounts:
Char 1:
Broker Relations Level: 5
Corp Standing: 6.71077634245
Broker Fee Rate: 0.27826%
Char 2:
Broker Relations Level: 5
Corp Standing: 1.600
Broker Fee Rate: 0.589345%
I'm trying to determine if it's worth the effort to raise my standing above its current level. For example, if raising my standing from 6.7 to 9.9 would lower my rate from .278% to .001%, it may be worth it. If it lowers it from .278% to .25%, it probably wouldn't be worth it. Anyway, that's what I'm looking for. So if you're willing to share some data, maybe we can all figure this out.
And if there are any budding mathematicians out there, you're more than welcome to try to figure out the formula with the info given. I had no such luck. 
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Sanjuro
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Posted - 2004.12.08 23:20:00 -
[2]
I've been paying out alot lately in broker fees and it has me wondering how low we can get the broker rate down. I know the broker relations skill takes it down 5% per level, and I know standing lowers it, but I've never seen the actual formula that determines your final rate. If anybody knows what it is or where I could find it, I'd greatly appreciate a nudge in that direction. If not, I was hoping some other players would be willing to post their current broker rates along with their stats affecting their rate.
This isn't meant to be a contest to see who has the lowest rate (although if it helps get some responses, knock yourself out ). I'm more curious to see if it's possible to get the broker fee down to zero % with high standing and maxed skill, or if there is always going to be a minimum rate regardless of standing and skill.
This is currently what I have with characters on my 2 accounts:
Char 1:
Broker Relations Level: 5
Corp Standing: 6.71077634245
Broker Fee Rate: 0.27826%
Char 2:
Broker Relations Level: 5
Corp Standing: 1.600
Broker Fee Rate: 0.589345%
I'm trying to determine if it's worth the effort to raise my standing above its current level. For example, if raising my standing from 6.7 to 9.9 would lower my rate from .278% to .001%, it may be worth it. If it lowers it from .278% to .25%, it probably wouldn't be worth it. Anyway, that's what I'm looking for. So if you're willing to share some data, maybe we can all figure this out.
And if there are any budding mathematicians out there, you're more than welcome to try to figure out the formula with the info given. I had no such luck.
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Dewar Scrabulous
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Posted - 2004.12.09 16:17:00 -
[3]
Unfortunately, two points isn't enough to do a good curve fit. Can anyone with more data please post. With about 10 points, it would be much easier to figure this one out.
-Dewar
---
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Dewar Scrabulous
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Posted - 2004.12.09 16:17:00 -
[4]
Unfortunately, two points isn't enough to do a good curve fit. Can anyone with more data please post. With about 10 points, it would be much easier to figure this one out.
-Dewar
---
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Deovina
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Posted - 2004.12.09 18:32:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Dewar Scrabulous
Unfortunately, two points isn't enough to do a good curve fit. Can anyone with more data please post. With about 10 points, it would be much easier to figure this one out.
-Dewar
looks pretty linear to me...
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Deovina
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Posted - 2004.12.09 18:32:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dewar Scrabulous
Unfortunately, two points isn't enough to do a good curve fit. Can anyone with more data please post. With about 10 points, it would be much easier to figure this one out.
-Dewar
looks pretty linear to me...
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Therian
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Posted - 2004.12.09 19:04:00 -
[7]
Yeah, because it only takes two points to make a line. If I give you two points on a curve, and ask to model the data for other values, anyone would make it a line. With even a third point, you can make it a curve. With more, you get prettier curves, or logarithmic stuff.
________________________________
Therian
Dreamscape Chief Financial Officer
Director of Manufacturing and Sales |
Therian
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Posted - 2004.12.09 19:04:00 -
[8]
Yeah, because it only takes two points to make a line. If I give you two points on a curve, and ask to model the data for other values, anyone would make it a line. With even a third point, you can make it a curve. With more, you get prettier curves, or logarithmic stuff.
________________________________
Therian
Dreamscape Chief Financial Officer
Director of Manufacturing and Sales |
Sanjuro
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Posted - 2004.12.09 23:57:00 -
[9]
Oh come on! I can't be the only one interested in this. With all the complaints that came with the skill introduction, I thought there'd be more interest in trying to figure out how much we can minimize the broker fee now that its in the game. Sounds like we've got a couple people who might be able to figure it out if we can get them the data. It doesn't matter whether you have high standing or no standing, max skill or no skill. The more info we can gather, the better the chances of figuring it out. So who's with me, huh?
*crickets chirp*
Oh well, I was able to go back and find my broker fee rate when I was at level 4, so I'll post that too. Same standing for both.
Char 1:
Broker Relations Level: 4
Corp Standing: 6.71077634245
Broker Fee Rate: 0.296811%
Char 2:
Broker Relations Level: 4
Corp Standing: 1.600
Broker Fee Rate: 0.628635%
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Sanjuro
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Posted - 2004.12.09 23:57:00 -
[10]
Oh come on! I can't be the only one interested in this. With all the complaints that came with the skill introduction, I thought there'd be more interest in trying to figure out how much we can minimize the broker fee now that its in the game. Sounds like we've got a couple people who might be able to figure it out if we can get them the data. It doesn't matter whether you have high standing or no standing, max skill or no skill. The more info we can gather, the better the chances of figuring it out. So who's with me, huh?
*crickets chirp*
Oh well, I was able to go back and find my broker fee rate when I was at level 4, so I'll post that too. Same standing for both.
Char 1:
Broker Relations Level: 4
Corp Standing: 6.71077634245
Broker Fee Rate: 0.296811%
Char 2:
Broker Relations Level: 4
Corp Standing: 1.600
Broker Fee Rate: 0.628635%
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Therian
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Posted - 2004.12.10 06:05:00 -
[11]
The skill level of Broker Relations will have a linear effect. It says that much in the description, and from those numbers, it's also obvious to me. The area in question involves standings, which is where things tend to go logarithmic.
________________________________
Therian
Dreamscape Chief Financial Officer
Director of Manufacturing and Sales |
Therian
|
Posted - 2004.12.10 06:05:00 -
[12]
The skill level of Broker Relations will have a linear effect. It says that much in the description, and from those numbers, it's also obvious to me. The area in question involves standings, which is where things tend to go logarithmic.
________________________________
Therian
Dreamscape Chief Financial Officer
Director of Manufacturing and Sales |
Lacero Callrisian
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Posted - 2004.12.10 09:47:00 -
[13]
I will add what data I can when my internet connection works again. I'm interested too, I lost over 500K to brokerage on a robotics order :/
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Lacero Callrisian
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Posted - 2004.12.10 09:47:00 -
[14]
I will add what data I can when my internet connection works again. I'm interested too, I lost over 500K to brokerage on a robotics order :/
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TornSoul
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Posted - 2004.12.12 15:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Dewar Scrabulous
Unfortunately, two points isn't enough to do a good curve fit.
-Dewar
Well you actually already got 4 points.
The 2 points presented + the start/end points.
Broker Relations Level: x
Corp Standing: 0.0
Broker Fee Rate: (1-(0.05x))%
and
Broker Relations Level: x
Corp Standing: 10.0
Broker Fee Rate: 0%
The last point is ofc an assumption - But a reasonable one.
And there you have it - 4 points in total.
and no... they dont lie on a straight line.
But close enough to use it as a 'rule of thumb' though.
And yes - the broker Relation skill is linear
---
(assuming broker relation lvl 0 for simplicity in the following)
If you use the 4 points and draw a line/curve and forthermore draws the straigth line from
(0, 1%) to
(10.0 , 0%)
(x=standing, y=fee)
then youll see the lines cross at (4.5 , 5.5) wich I find a tad odd...
I'd have expected them to cross at (5.0 , 5.0)
Seems the graph (formula) have been shifted left and up a bit.
Assuming the provided (middle) data points are correct.
A graph that will 'fit' the data points would be one of the form : a * log( (b/standing+c)-1 ) + d
Where a,b,c,d just are constants to make it 'fit'
a controls how 'whooply' the graph is - a=0.19 seems a good value
b = 10 (the max standing)
c and d are the 'offset' constants that ofsetts the graph from (5.0 , 5.0)
c=0.5 and d = 0.55 (0.5 to lift it from the x-axis and 0.05 to move it the last offset bit)
Bit of an 'expensive' formula (the log bit) for something like this though...
The formula also has some problems close to zero and 10 so...
So.. this is hardly it, but it looks pretty close for the most part 
Just use the straight line to approximate it - Much less hazzle 
BIG Lottery
[u |
TornSoul
|
Posted - 2004.12.12 15:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dewar Scrabulous
Unfortunately, two points isn't enough to do a good curve fit.
-Dewar
Well you actually already got 4 points.
The 2 points presented + the start/end points.
Broker Relations Level: x
Corp Standing: 0.0
Broker Fee Rate: (1-(0.05x))%
and
Broker Relations Level: x
Corp Standing: 10.0
Broker Fee Rate: 0%
The last point is ofc an assumption - But a reasonable one.
And there you have it - 4 points in total.
and no... they dont lie on a straight line.
But close enough to use it as a 'rule of thumb' though.
And yes - the broker Relation skill is linear
---
(assuming broker relation lvl 0 for simplicity in the following)
If you use the 4 points and draw a line/curve and forthermore draws the straigth line from
(0, 1%) to
(10.0 , 0%)
(x=standing, y=fee)
then youll see the lines cross at (4.5 , 5.5) wich I find a tad odd...
I'd have expected them to cross at (5.0 , 5.0)
Seems the graph (formula) have been shifted left and up a bit.
Assuming the provided (middle) data points are correct.
A graph that will 'fit' the data points would be one of the form : a * log( (b/standing+c)-1 ) + d
Where a,b,c,d just are constants to make it 'fit'
a controls how 'whooply' the graph is - a=0.19 seems a good value
b = 10 (the max standing)
c and d are the 'offset' constants that ofsetts the graph from (5.0 , 5.0)
c=0.5 and d = 0.55 (0.5 to lift it from the x-axis and 0.05 to move it the last offset bit)
Bit of an 'expensive' formula (the log bit) for something like this though...
The formula also has some problems close to zero and 10 so...
So.. this is hardly it, but it looks pretty close for the most part
Just use the straight line to approximate it - Much less hazzle
BIG Lottery
[u |
Deovina
|
Posted - 2004.12.12 19:07:00 -
[17]
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Dewar Scrabulous
Unfortunately, two points isn't enough to do a good curve fit.
-Dewar
[...]
This is what I was talking about ;).
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Deovina
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Posted - 2004.12.12 19:07:00 -
[18]
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: Dewar Scrabulous
Unfortunately, two points isn't enough to do a good curve fit.
-Dewar
[...]
This is what I was talking about ;).
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Blue Trucker
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Posted - 2005.05.01 17:38:00 -
[19]
Well, this seems to be a problem... maybe CCP or ISD could help... They could simple give us the formula... I don't see a point why they shouldn't - no exploiting possible.
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pshepherd
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Posted - 2005.05.02 08:14:00 -
[20]
unless of course they want players to work it out for themselves?
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Flammius
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Posted - 2005.05.02 09:04:00 -
[21]
Dunno if you need more info (or if Tornsoul already did all the math :) but for me it comes out like this
Broker Relations Level: 4
Corp Standing: 9.9898
Broker Fee Rate: 0.022932%
Also, minimum broker fee is always 100isk.
_________________________
Scientist, manufacturer, trader
Selling
Co-processor II, Tachyon Beam Laser II, Modulated Strip Miner II
Buying
Tech 2 BPOs (check my bio ingame) |
Crazy Squirrel
|
Posted - 2005.05.02 10:55:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Crazy Squirrel on 02/05/2005 10:55:52
Broker Relations Level: 4
Corp Standing: 2.55109384523
Broker Fee Rate: 0.711581%
Never realised standing affected it so much.
_______________________________________________
CCP fix an amazing 9.09% of the bugs I report!!
Find Out More |
Sanjuro
|
Posted - 2005.05.03 00:23:00 -
[23]
The Thread Lives!
I took another look at this, and I think I'm more confused now than I was before. I ran around to some local stations to see what I would be charged. I found corps of equal standing charging me different rates, and I found corps who I have higher standing with charging me more than corps I've never done a single mission for.
I guess I've assumed that only he Corporation standing is factored into the equation. But looking at the numbers I found, I'm thinking Faction standing is also considered.
Comparing 3 corps with the same corp standing, I got:
A: corp stand=1.6; faction stand=7.99; broker rate=0.3584%
B: corp stand=1.6; faction stand=7.99; broker rate=0.3584%
C: corp stand=1.6; faction stand=8.43; broker rate=0.3407%
Faction standing may even be more important than corp standing:
Comparing 3 corps with different corp standing, I got:
D: corp stand=6.06; faction stand=6.42; broker rate=0.3449%
E: corp stand=1.63; faction stand=2.98; broker rate=0.6383%
F: corp stand=1.60; faction stand=8.43; broker rate=0.3407%
I don't know, the only difference I can see between some of these is the faction standing, so that's my guess for the day.
BTW, this was with broker relations skill level 5.
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Blue Trucker
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Posted - 2005.05.03 10:13:00 -
[24]
Maybe even CCP doesn't know how they do it... 
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