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Misunderstood Genius	Posted - 2010.05.31 23:58:00 - [1] Edited by: Misunderstood Genius on 31/05/2010 23:59:00 CCP changed the insurance pay and payout. No problem to me so far. But I agreed to an insurance contract BEFORE Tyrannis for 30,5m at 105m payout. That is effectively 74,5m I will receive in a case of loss. After the patch I received 68m. That is effectively 37,5. Due to design changes I lost 37m. Not big ISK but a contract is a contract. Period. (just imagine what this will mean for a Carrier loss). Me was told this is a result of game design changes. ISK is rl time or money. rl time is money. Period. I will not accept that CCP "steals" ISK by their changes. They need to handle this case right and customer friendly, please.
Valeronx Celestial Horizon Corp. United Corporate Ventures	Posted - 2010.05.31 23:59:00 - [2] You are wrong. Period.
Misunderstood Genius	Posted - 2010.06.01 00:04:00 - [3] Originally by: Valeronx You are wrong. Period. Just explain and I try to understand. (EVE forums ofc sighs)
Shinnen Caldari Northern Intelligence	Posted - 2010.06.01 00:09:00 - [4] I agree that it's odd that the insurance also changed on a ship that you insured before the changes. But then again, I imagine it would have been a hassle to code for the insurance of ships pre- and post-changes. Sorry for your loss =[
Felix Esperium Lysergic Distortions Research and Development	Posted - 2010.06.01 00:15:00 - [5] this should be merged with the thread from the guy who insured 90+ ravens pre-patch
THERisingPHOENIX Caldari TWiZTED CHAOZ	Posted - 2010.06.01 00:18:00 - [6] Changes has been already done and just like what Shinnen said, it will be a total hassle to change the game code. Though this will make ppl plan fleet tatics better and fly their ships / cap ships at more care.
Misunderstood Genius	Posted - 2010.06.01 00:20:00 - [7] Originally by: Shinnen I agree that it's odd that the insurance also changed on a ship that you insured before the changes. But then again, I imagine it would have been a hassle to code for the insurance of ships pre- and post-changes. Sorry for your loss =[ Well, I am not the only one affected by this. I can understand what you say but that's definitely CCP's problem. Just imagine that a design change need to reset all wallets to zero. I just want to illustrate with this example that there's no difference if it's 10m ISK or 10bil ISK. Players have to follow CCP's EULA or they have to deal with consequences. Same has CCP to do with "ingame contracts".
Lothros Andastar Gallente	Posted - 2010.06.01 00:21:00 - [8] Originally by: Misunderstood Genius Edited by: Misunderstood Genius on 31/05/2010 23:59:00 CCP changed the insurance pay and payout. No problem to me so far. But I agreed to an insurance contract BEFORE Tyrannis for 30,5m at 105m payout. That is effectively 74,5m I will receive in a case of loss. After the patch I received 68m. That is effectively 37,5. Due to design changes I lost 37m. Not big ISK but a contract is a contract. Period. (just imagine what this will mean for a Carrier loss). Me was told this is a result of game design changes. ISK is rl time or money. rl time is money. Period. I will not accept that CCP "steals" ISK by their changes. They need to handle this case right and customer friendly, please. Guess what moron, the EULA is also a contract. Read it. You will find CCP can pretty much choose to delete your account whenever they want, and you can do jack ** about it. My advice? Stop ***ing and count yourself lucky they don't.
Cailais Amarr British Armoured Division	Posted - 2010.06.01 00:28:00 - [9] Originally by: Misunderstood Genius Originally by: Shinnen I agree that it's odd that the insurance also changed on a ship that you insured before the changes. But then again, I imagine it would have been a hassle to code for the insurance of ships pre- and post-changes. Sorry for your loss =[ Well, I am not the only one affected by this. I can understand what you say but that's definitely CCP's problem. Just imagine that a design change need to reset all wallets to zero. I just want to illustrate with this example that there's no difference if it's 10m ISK or 10bil ISK. Players have to follow CCP's EULA or they have to deal with consequences. Same has CCP to do with "ingame contracts". Well if you read the EULA you'd find that: "Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP.." So you actually haven't lost anything as it wasn't yours to start with. Fly safe! C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
Misunderstood Genius	Posted - 2010.06.01 00:28:00 - [10] Edited by: Misunderstood Genius on 01/06/2010 00:33:30 Originally by: THERisingPHOENIX Changes has been already done and just like what Shinnen said, it will be a total hassle to change the game code. Though this will make ppl plan fleet tatics better and fly their ships / cap ships at more care. Well, from technical pov I understood. In this case I would really recommend to everyone who is experiencing the same problem: Petition and escalate to a senior GM. Finally it's a similar hassle but not affecting the game code but CCP staff. That seems to be the only way to fix this "very wrong designed case". Breaching this ingame contract is to me like breaching their EULA by players.
Zaknussem Intrum Industria	Posted - 2010.06.01 00:34:00 - [11] So everybody has been committing insurance fraud here on a galactic scale and nobody cares one iota, but when the insurance company suddenly starts scamming back... You'd think the insurance HQ was located in Soviet Russia.
Balsak Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot	Posted - 2010.06.01 00:36:00 - [12] Originally by: Misunderstood Genius Edited by: Misunderstood Genius on 01/06/2010 00:33:30 Originally by: THERisingPHOENIX Changes has been already done and just like what Shinnen said, it will be a total hassle to change the game code. Though this will make ppl plan fleet tatics better and fly their ships / cap ships at more care. Well, from technical pov I understood. In this case I would really recommend to everyone who is experiencing the same problem: Petition and escalate to a senior GM. Finally it's a similar hassle but not affecting the game code but CCP staff. That seems to be the only way to fix this "very wrong designed case". Breaching this ingame contract is to me like breaching their EULA by players. So just because you feel somehow cheated when in fact you weren't and you understand why CCP did it this way you still want to tell people to file bogus petition just to cause CCP a hassle ?
Misunderstood Genius	Posted - 2010.06.01 00:37:00 - [13] Edited by: Misunderstood Genius on 01/06/2010 00:39:03 Originally by: Lothros Andastar Originally by: Misunderstood Genius Edited by: Misunderstood Genius on 31/05/2010 23:59:00 CCP changed the insurance pay and payout. No problem to me so far. But I agreed to an insurance contract BEFORE Tyrannis for 30,5m at 105m payout. That is effectively 74,5m I will receive in a case of loss. After the patch I received 68m. That is effectively 37,5. Due to design changes I lost 37m. Not big ISK but a contract is a contract. Period. (just imagine what this will mean for a Carrier loss). Me was told this is a result of game design changes. ISK is rl time or money. rl time is money. Period. I will not accept that CCP "steals" ISK by their changes. They need to handle this case right and customer friendly, please. Guess what moron, the EULA is also a contract. Read it. You will find CCP can pretty much choose to delete your account whenever they want, and you can do jack ** about it. My advice? Stop ***ing and count yourself lucky they don't. Yes, if they have a serious reason they will kick player paying them. I know. There's an EULA meant to protect the product and interests of CCP. Correct. Makes sense from point of law. But there are also customers investing time and money. Both are needed or there's no EVE. Thanks for your very kind answer.
Misunderstood Genius	Posted - 2010.06.01 00:45:00 - [14] Edited by: Misunderstood Genius on 01/06/2010 00:53:26 Originally by: Balsak Originally by: Misunderstood Genius Edited by: Misunderstood Genius on 01/06/2010 00:33:30 Originally by: THERisingPHOENIX Changes has been already done and just like what Shinnen said, it will be a total hassle to change the game code. Though this will make ppl plan fleet tatics better and fly their ships / cap ships at more care. Well, from technical pov I understood. In this case I would really recommend to everyone who is experiencing the same problem: Petition and escalate to a senior GM. Finally it's a similar hassle but not affecting the game code but CCP staff. That seems to be the only way to fix this "very wrong designed case". Breaching this ingame contract is to me like breaching their EULA by players. So just because you feel somehow cheated when in fact you weren't and you understand why CCP did it this way you still want to tell people to file bogus petition just to cause CCP a hassle ? You misunderstood what I meant. A code change will be too much hassle. But if thousands of player petition this can be also too much hassle. A petiton seems to be the only way to talk to CCP. And I am sure a lot of player will do it depending how much they lost by this change. And I guess we have the right to petition if we need answers and eventually a solution. And to me the result of the insurance change is treating customers wrong - investing their time, money, GTC whatever else to support CCP and the game dev. END OF THREAD!
Svarty II Minmatar	Posted - 2010.06.01 00:52:00 - [15] I got an notification telling me they'd pay me 100% of the ship cost. Interestingly that will be ~25m, which is 3m less than I paid for my ship. Therefore: 100% < 90% Genius. Thanks for showing the rest of the universe the error of their ways, CCP. Truly, we are morons who sully your intelligence with our faith in simple mathematics.
Balsak Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot	Posted - 2010.06.01 00:53:00 - [16] Edited by: Balsak on 01/06/2010 00:55:08 Originally by: Misunderstood Genius Originally by: Balsak Originally by: Misunderstood Genius Edited by: Misunderstood Genius on 01/06/2010 00:33:30 Originally by: THERisingPHOENIX Changes has been already done and just like what Shinnen said, it will be a total hassle to change the game code. Though this will make ppl plan fleet tatics better and fly their ships / cap ships at more care. Well, from technical pov I understood. In this case I would really recommend to everyone who is experiencing the same problem: Petition and escalate to a senior GM. Finally it's a similar hassle but not affecting the game code but CCP staff. That seems to be the only way to fix this "very wrong designed case". Breaching this ingame contract is to me like breaching their EULA by players. So just because you feel somehow cheated when in fact you weren't and you understand why CCP did it this way you still want to tell people to file bogus petition just to cause CCP a hassle ? A petiton seems to be the only way to talk to CCP. And I guess we have the right to petition if we need answers and eventually a solution. And to me the insurance change is treating customers wrong - investing their time, money, GTC whatever else to support CCP and the game dev. Well as long as you are admitting to it then go right ahead and waste peoples time and punish those who have legitimate petitions by making them wait even longer Look man, everyone knew the insurance changes were coming and exactly why they were being done. At this point you are just being petty and vindictive for no reason other than your own personal gratification. Can you say selfish ? You aren't some helpless victim who was so wrongfully abused. You are playing an ever changing game and these types of things are going to happen, get over it or take your money elsewhere which is how you get your message through to companies. Edit: I just noticed you edited your post with "END OF THREAD". ROFL. Please do yourself a favor, get over your over inflated sense of self worth.
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2010.06.01 00:54:00 - [17] Originally by: Misunderstood Genius Not big ISK but a contract is a contract. Period. Assuming you signed with your character name, you're now guilty of fraud. Or is it perhaps not a legally binding contract? This reminds me of the urban myth of a guy who insured his expensive cigars against fire, then filed a claim after smoking them. Company sued, lost, paid and counter sued for arson, and won. Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.06.01 00:55:00 - [18] Originally by: Lothros Andastar Guess what moron, the EULA is also a contract. Read it. You will find CCP can pretty much choose to delete your account whenever they want, and you can do jack ** about it. My advice? Stop ***ing and count yourself lucky they don't. You are the moron. I should count myself lucky that CCP doesn't ban my account arbitrarily? It's a business. The game has a monthly subscription fee. It's like saying that you should feel lucky that McDonald's doesn't kick you out of the store for absolutely no reason at all. Also, I can do a lot about it if CCP starts to abuse its powers. For example, awareness raising. What happens if CCP is known to arbitrarily ban paying customers? It will decrease customer satisfaction and scare away potential customers, which will start an avalanche effect that destroys its customer base (and all possible means of income.) On Topic: I am not actively against compensation to pre-patch insurance contracts. I have ships that were insured before Tyrannis as well.
Misunderstood Genius	Posted - 2010.06.01 01:04:00 - [19] Originally by: Washell Olivaw Originally by: Misunderstood Genius Not big ISK but a contract is a contract. Period. Assuming you signed with your character name, you're now guilty of fraud. Or is it perhaps not a legally binding contract? This reminds me of the urban myth of a guy who insured his expensive cigars against fire, then filed a claim after smoking them. Company sued, lost, paid and counter sued for arson, and won. The cigars legend is funny but has nothing to do with the EVE's ship insurance :-D
BeanBagKing Ch3mic4l Warfare STR8NGE BREW	Posted - 2010.06.01 01:28:00 - [20] I like your name, it fits your topic well.
Fearless M0F0 Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.06.01 02:13:00 - [21] Originally by: Shinnen But then again, I imagine it would have been a hassle to code for the insurance of ships pre- and post-changes. I agree with OP, a contract is a contract. I'm impressed there was no more whining about this when it was announced. It is a shame that CCP devs didn't bother to add a couple extra fields to the items database (insurance payout amount, insurance expiration date), so when insurance premiums change they don't affect already insured items. -- Fearless M0F0> RELEASE TEH KRAKEN! Teh Kraken> RAWR
Nooma K'Larr Minmatar	Posted - 2010.06.01 02:17:00 - [22] your mommy dresses you funny ------------------------------------------------ Urging CCP to work on current issues next expansion.
Boogie Bobby	Posted - 2010.06.01 02:19:00 - [23] Judge Judy would probably be interested in hearing this case.
Psionist	Posted - 2010.06.01 03:05:00 - [24] In eve, a contract is just a suggestion I guess.
Thuranni Eldjotnar	Posted - 2010.06.01 03:21:00 - [25] You entered into a "contract" with a fictional entity, Pend Insurance. Quote: ISK is rl time or money. rl time is money. Period. ISK has no RL value.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.06.01 03:24:00 - [26] Edited by: Cipher Jones on 01/06/2010 03:24:46 Originally by: Misunderstood Genius Edited by: Misunderstood Genius on 31/05/2010 23:59:00 CCP changed the insurance pay and payout. No problem to me so far. But I agreed to an insurance contract BEFORE Tyrannis for 30,5m at 105m payout. That is effectively 74,5m I will receive in a case of loss. After the patch I received 68m. That is effectively 37,5. Due to design changes I lost 37m. Not big ISK but a contract is a contract. Period. (just imagine what this will mean for a Carrier loss). Me was told this is a result of game design changes. ISK is rl time or money. rl time is money. Period. I will not accept that CCP "steals" ISK by their changes. They need to handle this case right and customer friendly, please. Actually, here is the deal: Quote: The selected item will be insured while in your possession for the duration of the contract. Repackaging the item will void the contract... You can go on to read the rest of the in game contract but the point is, nowhere in the contract does it say that the full amount of insurance must be paid. In real life Larry Silverstein couldn't even get his full 7 billion payout with the best lawyers in NYC. This is clearly a signature.
Napro Caldari Buccaneers of New Eden death from above..	Posted - 2010.06.01 03:28:00 - [27] Originally by: Thuranni You entered into a "contract" with a fictional entity, Pend Insurance. Quote: ISK is rl time or money. rl time is money. Period. ISK has no RL value. You should stop by the Timecode Bazaar sometime... it'll blow your mind
Usagi Tsukino Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2010.06.01 07:50:00 - [28] Didn't we already have this thread? __________ Multispectacular.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.06.01 08:13:00 - [29] Originally by: Felix Esperium this should be merged with the thread from the guy who insured 90+ ravens pre-patch Nah. Fail of that magnatude deserves to be left on its own to bask in all of that glory.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.06.01 08:55:00 - [30] Insurance is now designed to underpay if the value of the ship drops during the course of the contract, which is effectively what happened here. Working as intended. - DesuSigs - Now with ThreadAssignÖ and SigSelectÖ

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