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omgfreemoniez
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Posted - 2010.06.02 17:00:00 -
[1]
Often I see people telling others they suck at pvp based on their killboard statistics. This makes me wonder, what does the general eve community consider to constitute a "good" pvper, based only on the "statistics" section of the killboard?
K/D ratio
Total Kills
Isk Destroyed
Efficiency
Exactly what numbers need to be obtained in these before you would consider someone a "good" pvper based soley on their killboard stats?
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Dante Fitzosborne
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Posted - 2010.06.02 17:09:00 -
[2]
For me none of those really tells the tale. If you are part of a 40 ship blob that kills a carrier you will drive up your stats fast. I look at types of kills, and numbers involved. Does the pilot seem to go looking for fights or is he just a fleet member, not a bad thing but not indicative of real personal skill.
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Amanda Mor
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.02 17:18:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: omgfreemoniez
Often I see people telling others they suck at pvp based on their killboard statistics. This makes me wonder, what does the general eve community consider to constitute a "good" pvper, based only on the "statistics" section of the killboard?
K/D ratio
Total Kills
Isk Destroyed
Efficiency
Exactly what numbers need to be obtained in these before you would consider someone a "good" pvper based soley on their killboard stats?
None of those are reliable indicators of PvP competence - they can all be inflated by taking part in blobs and outnumbered ganks.
K/D ratio, effieciency - generally highest for people in successful blobs, in which case the credit goes mostly to the FC, not the individual pilot
Total Kills - shows experience, not necessarily competence, see above
Total ISK destroyed - almost totally meaningless for individual pilots; were you bottom damage dealer on a Titan kill? Then you get 50bil added to your ISK damage done stat, congratulations! This really only means something on a corp or alliance basis as far as bragging rights are concerned against their enemies.
At this point, there is no quick and easy stat to show true pvp competence. You have to look at a bunch of the individual kills to see how many were solo or small gang, against similar or superior class ships etc.
I suppose you could also look at some type of points:kill ratio. Most (all?) KB's give more points the "harder" a kill is (ie 1v1 gets more per pilot than 10v1, BC killing a BS gets more than BC killing a frigate), so if you have two pilots with the same number of points, but one of them did it with a quarter of the kills, it means he would be "better" b/c he was going after harder targets with smaller numbers (generally speaking)
I think the new KB, eve-arena, has some stats and such that do a better job of assessing true pvp competence than Battleclinic or Griefwatch.
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I don't have an alt, but there's a main that would be upset if he heard me say that... |
Steve Celeste
Caldari
Inglorious-Basterds
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Posted - 2010.06.02 18:43:00 -
[4]
Ranking.
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Cyan Cure
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Posted - 2010.06.02 19:05:00 -
[5]
Killboard is a REALLY, EXTREMELY (so much, that even caps lock can't stress it enough) broad idea about how you PvP. It's a good thing to show when applying to a corporation. It can tell if you fly solo, what ships you fly, where, what you hunt, that's about it.
A killboard can't be a measurement of your actual skill. Decision making by you or your enemy doesn't show on killmails and that's atleast 90% of any PvP fight in EvE.
If people tell you that you suck because of your bad KB statistics, then they have no idea how this game works and you should be more than happy to just ignore them.
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Aiden Vorlan
Caldari
Draconian Armada
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Posted - 2010.06.02 19:08:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dante Fitzosborne
For me none of those really tells the tale. If you are part of a 40 ship blob that kills a carrier you will drive up your stats fast. I look at types of kills, and numbers involved. Does the pilot seem to go looking for fights or is he just a fleet member, not a bad thing but not indicative of real personal skill.
Here's the thing. Newbies like me who have just started, in order to effectively "PvP", are forced to be parts of gangs/fleets in order to obtain kills. With less than 2 million skill points on my primary PvP character who flies a stealth bomber, I am forced to be part of wolfpacks or the like. I can't fit a point on it because of CPU/energy requirements, and if I get with-in range of a point, it usually means I'm in range of those things called "rockets" and the like, meaning my Charmin Ultra-tanked Manticore is going to be blown to crap.
Am I saying you're completely wrong? Absolutely not.
Also, you must keep in mind that in fleet warfare you have to listen to the FC or you will fail. If every person in a forty-man fleet is doing his own thing, they'll be torn to shreds and deal minimal damage to the enemy. I think what makes a competent PVPer is his ability to listen to orders, as well as think on the fly. Sometimes, those orders need to be countermanded by an individual, such as when the enemy fleet warps in some ECM. In that case, your ECM best be ready to disrupt that Blackbird, or else you're going to lose quite a bit of DPS.
/two cents
First to fight for right and freedom,
And to keep our honor clean!
Semper fidelis! |
Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.06.02 19:21:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Ranking.
^^This.
Ranking would be the most accurate in my mind, because the way points are awarded gives a somewhat reasonable approximation of what each kill is worth.
Unfortunately it completely ignores logistics unless they get whacked and killed in the fight, and then its just a straight drop for the pilot because there's no kills to balance it out. Perhaps if dmg healed was also included in KM's it might help a bit but whatever, seems too much trouble.
There are other issues with ranking as well, but overall I'd say it's the best indicator of how dangerous a person is.
-Jin Nib
Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since:
2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Rajere
No Trademark
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Posted - 2010.06.02 23:43:00 -
[8]
Pretty much what everyone else has said.
The "Involved" column is the best single stat to look at for determining pvp competency (in a very broad, general way), though not all kb's enable that statistic.
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F5F5F5F5F5F5F5 |
Useless1
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Posted - 2010.06.04 14:29:00 -
[9]
In my opinion, the only thing killboards gauge is activity, nothing more.
When I'm looking to join a corp I look at their killboard to see when they're active, where they fly, what ship types they like and in what size fleets. It tells me nothing about how good/bad they are. |
Useless1
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Posted - 2010.06.04 14:35:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Rajere
Pretty much what everyone else has said.
The "Involved" column is the best single stat to look at for determining pvp competency (in a very broad, general way), though not all kb's enable that statistic.
Even the involved column doesn't mean much. In a 10v10 fight each individual KM is going to look like a gank when in reality it could have been a very exciting fight. |
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Danks
Caldari
Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds
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Posted - 2010.06.04 15:38:00 -
[11]
The only thing KBs are useful for is looking at your enemies losses and seeing how they fit their ships and what systems they operate in.
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.06.04 23:06:00 -
[12]
I never submit killmails. Too much intel that that I don't want to be made public. I'd rather be underestimated and considered a newb.
Some corps/alliances require killmail submissions to make them look scarier. Especially mercenary corps, to show their success.
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Greg6
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Posted - 2010.06.05 15:30:00 -
[13]
For myself you'll have to start by defining what you mean when you say, "good pvp pilot."
Many folk tend to mean that a pilot is skilled at solo pvp when they say that, in at least one class of ships. But solo pvp makes up the smallest part of pvp in eve, IME. Some of the best pilots I know at solo pvp are total crap when it comes to teamwork and group pvp, the bulk of pvp in the game.
So you'll have to figure out what you mean by the question. If you're looking for folk who can handle themselves in a solo fight you can look at the kill board tea leaves and figure things out. But that won't tell you if the person in question is a total pain in the ass in fleet, unwilling to listen to the FC, a source of constant complaining, unwilling to actually risk their ship in a fight for fear of ruining those kill board stats, and so on. Those are all vital parts of being a good pvp pilot, IMHO, and I'm unaware of any method of determining if a given pilot is, "good," in that way without flying with them.
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Annie Anomie
Gallente
Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2010.06.05 16:59:00 -
[14]
I really don't look at it in numerical terms tbh.
Below a certain number of kills and someone probably doesn't know what they're doing but past that you have to look at individual kill and lossmails.
I mean you can have a terrific success ratio but never be on a killmail with less than 20 guys.
There's players who I know for a fact are much better PVPers than 95%+ers with lower ratios because they take more risks or solo more.
It's more of a rough judgement based on numbers with some more in depth analysis based on more qualitative judgements of individual kills/losses and even then I wouldn't base that decision solely on KB.
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Kastera
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Posted - 2010.06.06 05:37:00 -
[15]
I'm in agreement with many people here.
Experience can't be solely gauged by how many kills someone has or what his isk ratio is. There are so many variables that killboards just don't show.
FC experience isn't shown by a killboard. Logistics skills aren't shown by a killboard. Scouting, scanning or probing skills aren't shown by a killboard. Knowledge of certain tactics and situations aren't shown by a killboard.
For example, I have FC'd gangs up North. I have taken part of 200+ man battleship/captial gangs and I've taken part in POS bashing and many other sov warefare type things. However, I have less than 200 kills and deaths combined on my combat history. Does this mean that I'm not a good FC? Does mean that I don't understand tactics or fittings? Does this mean that I haven't experienced many different things regarding pvp? No, it doesn't and whoever says it does is a fool.
Many view this as a serious problem in Eve and I can understand why. However, the solution is quite simple.
The killboards NEVER were and NEVER will be the sole source of information about a pilot's abilities.
Just as businesses don't hire people solely based on their resumes/applications, people shouldn't judge a pilot based on his/her individual killboard. The best way is to judge someone's abilities is to speak with people they have flown with them in conjunction to the killboard. Anyone who doesn't recognize this simple, simple thing is an idiot.
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Darthewok
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.06.06 16:53:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Darthewok on 06/06/2010 16:54:42
to me, respectable kill stats are:
>500 kills in 0.0 or lowsec (enough practice fighting in unsafe conditions)
you need many many many fights to be considered a decent PVPer as you simply cannot encounter enough varied situations to give you a well-rounded experience base without enough fights.
>20 solo kills (ability to stand on your own without an FC spoonfeeding you kills)
if you have 1000s of kills but 0 solo kills, likely you are merely riding on the skills of your FC instead of having PVP skills of your own.
if you are capable of doing ok in solo, at least it goes to show you have some basic working knowledge of EVE combat mechanics.
someone with those stats may not be guaranteed to be a good player, but should at least be relatively seasoned and have some decent PVP experience base.
don't care about efficiency or win-loss ratio as high values of these may be due to hiding in big blobs.
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Hidden Snake
Caldari
Inglorious-Basterds
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Posted - 2010.06.06 17:32:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jin Nib
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Ranking.
^^This.
Ranking would be the most accurate in my mind, because the way points are awarded gives a somewhat reasonable approximation of what each kill is worth.
Unfortunately it completely ignores logistics unless they get whacked and killed in the fight, and then its just a straight drop for the pilot because there's no kills to balance it out. Perhaps if dmg healed was also included in KM's it might help a bit but whatever, seems too much trouble.
There are other issues with ranking as well, but overall I'd say it's the best indicator of how dangerous a person is.
In general this ...
but u will get idea from ranking.
Also if somebody has under 100 kills on 95 % has no idea about pvp (can be someones alt ofc - but from my experience big mouthed low kill forum warriors are not alts).
What is also good reference is lossmails (if you see solid setups you know you are facing someone who is at least trying to do it right - funny lossmails are just pointing you to probable noob - everybody has some funny lossmails in archives).
"There is no honor in war" |
Kastera
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2010.06.07 03:49:00 -
[18]
My favorite is when people send a mail in-game talking **** because they killed an afk pod in high sec and then lose a failfit drake about three hours later in high sec
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Darthewok
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.06.07 04:07:00 -
[19]
Total Kills - important, too low and player lacks experience.
Existence of number of solo kills - important, shows player is able to fight independently without FC playing nursery maid.
Location of kills - important, you want to see some kills in 0.0 and low-sec to show player is unafraid and able to operate in dangerous regions.
K/D ratio - not too important as it may be low due to player taking risks.
Isk Destroyed - not too important as it may be low due to player taking risks.
Efficiency - too important as it may be high due to player never taking risks.
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