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Why is sleeper AI still only in W-Space?

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Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate	Posted - 2010.06.08 01:06:00 - [1] You guys talked about bringing this to missions... It's been well over a year, what happened? Sig Gallery is currently down: Contact me ingame for prices.
Geezelbub Gallente Barely Illegal	Posted - 2010.06.08 01:10:00 - [2] Well one problem is the low sec gankers *****e frothing at the mouth to gank mission runners might actaully get aggro from Sleeper AI and get WTFpwnBBQ'd. That could spoil CCP's plan WTF ever it is.
Ti'anla Minmatar	Posted - 2010.06.08 01:15:00 - [3] That and I'm pretty sure CCP's general plan is 'one poop on the fan at a time'. Maybe when they've run out of things to do - and thus things for one sector or another of the playerbase to throw wobbler about - they'll let the AI upgrade stir up more trouble >.>
mkmin	Posted - 2010.06.08 01:32:00 - [4] Because the content team spent the whole last expansion adding space junk everywhere instead of, you know, making content.
Fearless M0F0 Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.06.08 01:48:00 - [5] Sleeper AI = no ratting with drones = Dominix nerfed -- Fearless M0F0> RELEASE TEH KRAKEN! Teh Kraken> RAWR
Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate	Posted - 2010.06.08 02:34:00 - [6] Originally by: Fearless M0F0 Sleeper AI = no ratting with drones = Dominix nerfed So because a ship is inconvenienced, we shouldn't have it? Sig Gallery is currently down: Contact me ingame for prices.
Fearless M0F0 Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.06.08 02:57:00 - [7] Originally by: Sader Rykane Originally by: Fearless M0F0 Sleeper AI = no ratting with drones = Dominix nerfed So because a ship is inconvenienced, we shouldn't have it? It wouldn't be a problem if the Domi wasn't the only Gallente ship worth flying. In case ur noob, Gallente have taken the brunt of Dev nerfing for the last 4 years, heck even Minmatar got boosted The Domi got nerfed when sleeper AI was released... a freaking rail Megathron is more effective against sleepers.. and rails suck I guess devs have been reading my whines and slowed down their systematic stealth nerfing of Gallente.... oh wait, they nerfed the Moros on Dominion -- Fearless M0F0> RELEASE TEH KRAKEN! Teh Kraken> RAWR
Amitious Turkey Gallente TarNec manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.06.08 03:05:00 - [8] Edited by: Amitious Turkey on 08/06/2010 03:06:05 Wormholes boggle them. No little friends for wormhole trips=sad Seriously though, what's up with the whining? Haunting the forums since '03 BECAUSE OF FALCONDUST! Originally by: CCP Navigator We love you all as well <3 NAVIGATOR <3
Nishachara Special Operations Corp Mortal Destruction	Posted - 2010.06.08 03:09:00 - [9] If you pay attention to your drones and...you know actually play the game and not afk, youll see that you can go with drones against sleeper AI. I have corpmates that clear sleeper sites very effectively in gilas. And also "hospital-domi" with rr-s and drones is invaluable in a class3 or higher wormhole pve gang. Sleeper AI is not nerfing gallente drone boats, its only making you pay more attention, like i pay attention to speed, type of ammo, range, tracking ...etc in my projectile boats.
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.06.08 03:30:00 - [10] It's not just sleeper AI missions need. More variety than 'go kill and return. Oh and pick up something when there will you?' is needed. There has been a lot of good suggestions posted in the past but I don't think CCP are interested. Basic aggro and threat mechanics would be a good start and scaling to encourage group play. Missions should not be a means to an end.
Vilgan Mazran Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.06.08 03:36:00 - [11] I've been in a w-space for the last 4 months, and still having fun with the sleeper sites. I popped out to do a 8/10 plex in 0.0 w/ some corpmates recently and wanted to slit my wrists before it was over. holy crap oldschool AI is boring, they never ever switch targets. I wanted to gouge my eyes out after 1 single plex, dunno how you guys do missions for hours on end without going insane!
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.06.08 04:21:00 - [12] The problem is, whenever CCP answer the call to make missions/rats more challenging it inevitably stirs up a storm of protest. The truth may simply be that people who want a challenge from NPC's are already doing wormholes, the rest would prefer to semi-AFK grind their ISK. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate	Posted - 2010.06.08 04:25:00 - [13] Originally by: Ranger 1 The problem is, whenever CCP answer the call to make missions/rats more challenging it inevitably stirs up a storm of protest. The truth may simply be that people who want a challenge from NPC's are already doing wormholes, the rest would prefer to semi-AFK grind their ISK. TBH I just want it applied to missions so I'll be less of a sitting duck in low sec level 5's. Sig Gallery is currently down: Contact me ingame for prices.
Nishachara Special Operations Corp Mortal Destruction	Posted - 2010.06.08 04:26:00 - [14] Edited by: Nishachara on 08/06/2010 04:26:45 Originally by: Vilgan Mazran I've been in a w-space for the last 4 months, and still having fun with the sleeper sites. I popped out to do a 8/10 plex in 0.0 w/ some corpmates recently and wanted to slit my wrists before it was over. holy crap oldschool AI is boring, they never ever switch targets. I wanted to gouge my eyes out after 1 single plex, dunno how you guys do missions for hours on end without going insane! exactly... Ive lived very long in wh now and i must admit that sleeper AI still suprises me from time to time, not boring as near as missions. Recently i started trying to clear wh anomalies in an assault frigate alongside someone with bigger ship. And oh boy, it tends to be fun, especially webbed and nosed and taking agro, it tends to be like dancing on a razors edge from time to time but fun :D In normal lv4 missions for example rats would just blob me and kill me if i get the agro first or i would not get agro at all :P With sleeper AI they are fewer but smarter so you have a chance to try something like this unorthodox and get out and also you have a very good chance of dying in something bigger if you arent carefull. Imo missions need to be like this, fewer ships but much more smarter, that would be the start for changing missions in something you would sometimes do for "fun" not just mindless half-afk grinding. Also i dont get it why they dont make it easier to fail a mission in different ways. For example, you have to kill some guy for completion of the mission, why mission would not give you, lets say 30 seconds when you warp in to point him or else he warps away...mission failed :D That way pve fits would get one little step closer to pvp fits, at least in this example.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2010.06.08 06:19:00 - [15] Edited by: Pottsey on 08/06/2010 06:22:41 Sader Rykane said "So because a ship is inconvenienced, we shouldn't have it?" It's not just 1 ship, it's all the drone ships, all the drone pilots who only have drone skill points can no longer run PvE. How would you like it if suddenly all missiles ships and pilots could no longer PvE, or all Turret pilots and ships? Sader Rykane said "Why is sleeper AI still only in W-Space?" Its not. It's used in Epic missions and I had a few normal missions where rats change targets. As most mission are done solo the Sleeper AI has zero impact and people wouldnt notice its there. The only thing the sleeper AI does is screw over drone pilots and ships and force those flying with friends to take more of a tank making it less worthwhile to fly with friends. The Sleeper AI would push people who fly in groups to fly solo with current missions. Plus no more long range drone fighting, slower more boreing missons as a drone pilot. No extra challenge, just extra irritations and more waiting around. All in all Sleeper AI would make current missions far worse as a Drone pilot or as a group pilot and have zero impact on solo no drone pilots. EDIT: Sleeper style AI where NPC's target drones was done before in missions. It was a massive disaster to the point where the change had to be rolled back. EDIT2: Perhaps some parts of the Sleeper AI could be used, its only the drone targeting part I am against. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Kendar Gallente 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.06.08 06:24:00 - [16] Why not make new missions with sleepers in them? some have come through the wh and needs to be stoped and stuff like that..
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2010.06.08 06:26:00 - [17] Aye, in the "boss encounters" of the epic arcs the NPCs have advanced AI (aka. Sleeper AI). OP: Maybe you are just uninformed? ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute - EVE Online Lorebook
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.06.08 06:30:00 - [18] Edited by: Furb Killer on 08/06/2010 06:31:19 I should ignore pottsey for the crime against humanity that he/she calls quoting, but anyway: The few times i have been in W-space i could use a domi with t1 ogres and they still survived, had to recall them a couple of times, but if a t1 ogre survives a recall it wasnt receiving too much dps. Now any domi/gila/ishtar will mostly be using sentry drones if it isnt afk, which i dont care if nerfed, and they can be instantly recalled if taking damage. But adding the complaining from some their drones get insta popped in w-space, i cant help but conclude the amount of damage on drones depends on the exact parameters of that sleeper ai. That or they make drones be a way better target than their domi, which just means you should fit guns/launchers on your drone ship instead of salvagers. Still i wouldnt mind if drones are put down bit further in priority from sleepers, however also nothing wrong with a bit (very limitted, but not non-existent) drone agro. Jowen, i have no idea about those, but still then the OP isnt misinformed if CCP bothered to get 3 npcs in 2 missions sleeper ai after a year.
Eclorc	Posted - 2010.06.08 08:22:00 - [19] +1 ..as suggested above, So use the sleeper AI in missions, but nerf sleeper AI a bit to significantly lessen (not remove entirely) their chance of seeing drones as valid targets. Less numbers of, but better and stronger AI, more fun.
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.06.08 08:32:00 - [20] Edited by: Zartrader on 08/06/2010 08:33:39 Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 08/06/2010 06:22:41 Sader Rykane said "So because a ship is inconvenienced, we shouldn't have it?" It's not just 1 ship, it's all the drone ships, all the drone pilots who only have drone skill points can no longer run PvE. How would you like it if suddenly all missiles ships and pilots could no longer PvE, or all Turret pilots and ships? Sader Rykane said "Why is sleeper AI still only in W-Space?" Its not. It's used in Epic missions and I had a few normal missions where rats change targets. As most mission are done solo the Sleeper AI has zero impact and people wouldnt notice its there. The only thing the sleeper AI does is screw over drone pilots and ships and force those flying with friends to take more of a tank making it less worthwhile to fly with friends. The Sleeper AI would push people who fly in groups to fly solo with current missions. Plus no more long range drone fighting, slower more boreing missons as a drone pilot. No extra challenge, just extra irritations and more waiting around. All in all Sleeper AI would make current missions far worse as a Drone pilot or as a group pilot and have zero impact on solo no drone pilots. EDIT: Sleeper style AI where NPC's target drones was done before in missions. It was a massive disaster to the point where the change had to be rolled back. EDIT2: Perhaps some parts of the Sleeper AI could be used, its only the drone targeting part I am against. Sleeper AI on its own is not enough but that does not mean the existing NPC AI should be left as it is. I find missions mind numbingly easy and I assume most players do, the NPC's are very predictable. What could also be included: 1. Decent aggro and threat mechanics (including being able to increase or decrease threat by mods) 2. Random spawns and triggers 3. Timed missions, primary and secondary objectives and success/fail payouts. 4. Missions requiring us to space walk, plant bombs, lead an NPC attack on stations and whatever else they can come up with. 5. More interaction with space objects and not just blowing them up with your weapons or getting stuck on them when warping. 6. Bosses or elites with semi random scripting requiring real though to defeat. I'm useless at thinking up ideas but there is so much potential for real quality game play.
Alexeph Stoekai Stoekai Corp	Posted - 2010.06.08 08:44:00 - [21] Edited by: Alexeph Stoekai on 08/06/2010 08:44:44 Originally by: Sader Rykane You guys talked about bringing this to missions... It's been well over a year, what happened? This was addressed at one of the roundtables at Fanfest. The reason advanced AI can't be added to all NPCs in the game, ignoring the balance issue, is that it creates a much higher strain on the servers than the basic behaviour. Presumably, it's because the Sleeper AI has to make lots and lots of calls and requests to the server to get the information it needs to react rapidly, while the common behaviour is simply "Is target there? If, then lock. When locked, FIRE!" -----
Erestas Drake	Posted - 2010.06.08 09:05:00 - [22] Because the outcry would be enormous. It was proven in multiple other MMOs that if you change the difficulty of a major NPC money generator across the board, either through better NPC scripts or attributes on the NPCs, most of players dont want it.
Scrobes	Posted - 2010.06.08 09:26:00 - [23] From Fanfest 2009
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2010.06.08 09:30:00 - [24] Originally by: Erestas Drake Because the outcry would be enormous. It was proven in multiple other MMOs... Eve is not like other mmos I would think that mission runners wouldn't mind some increased difficulty if interesting gameplay results from it. Also you can compensate the increased difficulty by some higher rewards so that the balance stays the same. PLEAAAAAAASE some (sleeper) AI in missions!
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.06.08 09:30:00 - [25] Originally by: Erestas Drake Because the outcry would be enormous. It was proven in multiple other MMOs that if you change the difficulty of a major NPC money generator across the board, either through better NPC scripts or attributes on the NPCs, most of players dont want it. I'm not sure that's true of EVE where most of us like complexity and difficulty. We do need alternate and far more interesting ways to earn ISK though. There is no reason why the new missions can't be another tier and simply an alternative, or maybe they can be exploration sites. The rewards can be appropriately scaled. This game just needs more variety I think. Having the most boring aspect of a game also being the easiest way to earn ISK is really not good for any game.
Cyberman Mastermind	Posted - 2010.06.08 09:39:00 - [26] Originally by: Nishachara If you pay attention to your drones and Do you mean actual drones, or deployed turrets, aka sentry "drones" ? I'm not sure how paying attention will help a drone that is 30KM or more from my ship when it's webbed and almost instantly shot to scrap.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2010.06.08 09:46:00 - [27] They scrapped this idea and moved onto plan B of "Operation: **** Off Mission Runners" - changing mission looting from "not that great" to "really awful" and making agents near low-sec prefer sending you there... Of course, these are GREAT changes if you think missions were too much fun already (less stuff to do in them!) or we needed moar crowded highsec mission hubs. But for the record, I only changed my sig because I was annoying myself with the last one.
Alexeph Stoekai Stoekai Corp	Posted - 2010.06.08 10:07:00 - [28] Edited by: Alexeph Stoekai on 08/06/2010 10:07:41 Originally by: Scrobes From Fanfest 2009 More appropriate timelink: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPpErMaTjBc#t=49m0s -----
Jaedar Metron Void Angels Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.06.08 10:12:00 - [29] Even if missions were to adopt the sleeper AI, would it even change much? I mean, most people solo lvl 1-4 missions anyway, and sleeper AI is just about the same as the regular AI when solo...
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.06.08 10:20:00 - [30] It would be a first step to make missions more pvp like, which would make a fight between a pve'er and pvp'er much more interesting. If you are now doing pve you either get tackled and die or dont get tackled and survive. Would be nice if there would actually be a fight where both sides can win the fight.

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