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Solomunio Kzenig
Amarr
InterSun Freelance
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Posted - 2010.06.10 11:34:00 -
[91]
Ok as someone who has actually spent the bulk of their 'EVE time' since the 8th actually engaged in PI (two chars/8 planets) I'll just throw in my 2 ISK worth.
1. Its a click fest, you could burn out your fapping arm in a week if you are not careful.
2. Interface/usability needs a bit of love, grouping extractors for example and more cycle times than than the current ones, a 12 hour one and maybe a 192 hour one (covers workdays/sleep and a week off).
3. It will get 'old' VERY quick, right now it looks and feels like a gimmick, the only way to get decent returns is to run your extractors in 30 minute cycles, you could spend all your EVE time just messing with PI, to the complete detriment of anything else in EVE.
4. Until the NPC orders are scrubbed from the market for PI goods the actual long term profitability (or not) of PI is unknown.
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.06.10 12:18:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Zartrader on 10/06/2010 12:20:02
 Originally by: Solomunio Kzenig
Ok as someone who has actually spent the bulk of their 'EVE time' since the 8th actually engaged in PI (two chars/8 planets) I'll just throw in my 2 ISK worth.
1. Its a click fest, you could burn out your fapping arm in a week if you are not careful.
2. Interface/usability needs a bit of love, grouping extractors for example and more cycle times than than the current ones, a 12 hour one and maybe a 192 hour one (covers workdays/sleep and a week off).
3. It will get 'old' VERY quick, right now it looks and feels like a gimmick, the only way to get decent returns is to run your extractors in 30 minute cycles, you could spend all your EVE time just messing with PI, to the complete detriment of anything else in EVE.
4. Until the NPC orders are scrubbed from the market for PI goods the actual long term profitability (or not) of PI is unknown.
I think grouping is a must to keep people interested. Just a simple block select would do. I know CCP like 10 clicks when one would do (which is the main reason I avoid low sec missioning) but extractor routing is an extreme bore. If the client does not allow this they could implement grades of extractors which are simply multiples of the existing ones, even being physically larger if needed.
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Lupe Fiasco
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Posted - 2010.06.10 13:22:00 -
[93]
There was some talk of whether or not you're "paying" for new stuff that CCP puts in the game.
Just think for a second. The game is $15 each month. If CCP never added so much as another .jpg to the game but left the servers up, it would cost $15 each month. That they release new content patches (good or bad) for no additional cost to the user implies that this content is in fact without cost.
Compare this to other MMOs on the market that have expansion releases that charge almost as much as the full client to the game itself. And, not only that, but it's implied you continue to pay your monthly fee for access to the game.
So yes you're paying for the game and the stuff that goes in to it based on your monthly fee. But when new content comes out it isn't reflected in your Real Life ISK payments to CCP.
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Kick, Push |
Orree
Dynaverse Corporation
Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.06.10 13:32:00 -
[94]
Personally, I have no interest in Planetary Interation. I don't expect to do any of it ever or train the skills. I had no interest in it from the moment it was announced as a future addition.
For those that like it or have an interest in it, more power to 'em, though. I'm glad they have a new bit of content in the game that interests them.
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"How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli |
Ana Vyr
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Posted - 2010.06.10 14:06:00 -
[95]
I've actually been having fun with PI.
Somehow, it just kinda fits in with the rest of the game. I was pretty skeptical of the feature when it was announced, and even more skeptical when it got rolled out on the test server and I read the various criticisms, but the actual implementation exceeded what I thought we'd end up with. I can't really explain what is fun about it, but I do find it so in the same light as mining...it's relaxing and neat to mess around with.
You can also see that it has the potential to become much more than it is today.
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Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
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Posted - 2010.06.10 14:24:00 -
[96]
Originally by: DRACO selen
- requires alot of time
- profit is next to nothing
- people will not use it, because ratting in lowsec is more isk
- ccp will remove tradegoods from npc orders
- markets will crash
hello PI.
yeah... i'm withholding judgement until NPC sell orders are gone.
however, there's still the eco-breaking screw-ups... reprocessing has been a huge part of eve before the carrier/mineral compression nerf 3 years ago. and because of that nerf, i'd say this assessment is "official". NPC-sold shuttles/civ afterburners and later pos mods for trit should have raised sufficient awareness.
so why am i still not surprised that your economists and S&I department missed that completely...?
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putting the gist back into logistics |
Backfyre
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Posted - 2010.06.10 20:09:00 -
[97]
Overall, I find PI to be a good facet of Eve gameplay but it needs some serious balancing and improvement. I also agree that it could get boring real fast. Then again, miners sit there for hours a day for years effectively watching grass die. Once the planet is set up though, PI makes mining look exciting. Need to fix that.
With balancing, production rates need a significant boost. In hisec, I have 5 planets working to create robotics and guidance systems that have a daily total worth of 250k ISK in pre-Tyrannis prices. The rate is too low to sustain POS operations and T2 production and the benefit-for-time ratio is wonky. This is going to be a wild ride for the market.
The click-fest needs to get fixed. The cost-benefit just isn't worth the tendenitis. I have to do what for 250k worth of materials?!?
Player control of production rates - make all extraction the same rate but let players choose processor speeds. Have higher speeds use more materials to make the same product. This is the "right" way to handle rates. The current extraction rate stuff is upside-down and FUBAR.
Add variety. "optional" inputs, like slaves, to tweak colony bonuses would be cool.
Lots of potential, but PI needs a lot of work.
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Ekrid
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Posted - 2010.06.11 01:07:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Ekrid on 11/06/2010 01:07:41
Originally by: Dogen Myestic
Originally by: Ekrid
Edited by: Ekrid on 10/06/2010 00:06:42
Originally by: Grez
You asked a few people, that doesn't mean you asked 100% of EVE.
Regardless, CCP are expanding on their vision of their game.
If you don't like PI, don't use it.
lol @ this ******.
Every idiot who think's they're being clever says "if you dont like it dont use it".
well I got news for you. the reason they could implement this is because we pay their salary. so Im supposed to pay for something Im not using and be okay with that?
The cool thing is you're not paying for it. Its a free expansion. They could quite reasonably ask you to keep paying for the game in its current state (see every other commercial MMO with paid expansions).
Fact is my friend, they don't charge for the expansions. You're not paying to use it. Seems to me that...
If you don't like PI, don't use it!
the cool thing about this you proved you're an idiot. There's no such thing as "Free". Sure, a cost is hidden in something else, that doesn't make it free.
Do you really think that us paying 15$ a month is "free"? I bet you're poor in real life, since you can't seem to grasp basic concepts of labor value.
the devs who make expansions are NOT doing it on their own free time for the love of the game. They're doing it because they get paid. Who pays them? Their management. Where does the management get the money? Subscribers to Eve online.
They continually have cut costs (see: removal of medium shader, classic client, widescreen, and on and on) to keep the "expansions" "free". Faction Warfare was an expansion. why isn't it still being worked on? Oh thats right, cause it'd cost more money, and as it was given without a direct pricetag, further work on it would cost more money than it would bring in. Thats why they orphaned it and it sits in ****ville.
welcome to reality.
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Ekrid
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Posted - 2010.06.11 01:13:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Serpents smile
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Lol. Tamagotchi indeed haha.
Right on the button. PI is nothing more and nothing less then a たまごっち.
Well it is less since it cannot die (yet).
't be released for another year or so. It definitely won't be ready for aThe funny (or not so funny really) thing is that I made a little tongue in cheek post a while back proclaiming that PI was the Eve equivalent of Tamagotchi and everyone flamed me and told me what a bad person I am for "complaining" about something that "wasn't even out yet". And yet here we are, aren't we?
My major issue with PI is this: CCP has totally screwed up the delivery and integration of the systems between Eve, Dust514 and it's interface- PI.
Dust is probably waaaay behind schedule and won winter 2010 release or even a spring 2011 release. And it most certainly won't be released ready to roll and 100% integrated with Eve when it comes out. The first release will most likely feel like an 'alpha' release due to all the bugs and integration issues that are sure to crop up.
The problem here is that PI stuff in Eve won't be able to be destroyed until Dust is finally implemented, years behind schedule and with half the features originally planned. This isn't good for Eve.
Dust should be completed and THEN the interface between the two games should be designed and implemented once Dust is COMPLETELY finished and off the ground/launched and well received by the console crowd. Any other effort on the part of the Eve side of the design is a waste of time until Dust is finally realized. They're putting the cart before the horse and probably doing more harm than good in the long run to Eve.
Everyone says that Eve will work and PI will work without Dust, in the case that it fails. Oh really? Then how are we going to be able to destroy PI stuff without dust? And if we are, then why do we need Dust at all?
As for PI doing 'damage' to Eve in the long term: just look at the botched introduction of PI with the NPC sell orders etc. I'm all for putting NPC items in the hands of players to manufacture, but let's not create yet another system where items will be farmed into virtual worthlessness by hordes of high sec players with a virtual free ride and complete safety with no possible option for an opposing player to destroy their assets.
I don't understand why more people don't have a problem with this. It's poor planning on CCP's part.
nail on head.
Quote:
The problem here is that PI stuff in Eve won't be able to be destroyed until Dust is finally implemented, years behind schedule and with half the features originally planned.
The dev team motto, but you can't blame them. They know the score just as much as us. The management is ****ing it up because they're so greedy. All eve players need to buy stock in CCP and then strongarm the management into not being miserly game ruining tards.
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Kern Hotha
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Posted - 2010.06.11 02:08:00 -
[100]
I'm sure P.I. really hits the spot for people who like moving dots around on a globe and pretending to run factories. However, it's worthless to me and I wish the development time had been better spent fixing the real game.
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Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2010.06.11 17:23:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Kern Hotha
I'm sure P.I. really hits the spot for people who like moving dots around on a globe and pretending to run factories. However, it's worthless to me and I wish the development time had been better spent fixing the real game.
well once you run CCP im sure we can do it your way, til then please whine impotently some more.
Seriously though, how many other MMOs out there do you see adding not just new content but COMPLETELY NEW WAYS TO PLAY THE GAME, especially when the game itself is seven years old.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php |
David Grogan
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.12 00:18:00 -
[102]
so far i find PI not very interesting
i have colonies on 2 planets and have yet to get it to produce anything worthwhile. most of the time the routes stop working.
honestly im gonna leave PI to the spreadsheet geeks. It offers no fun and just seems to be a boring addition and an excuse for spreadsheet geeks to fire up ms excel or whatever the openoffice version is more often.
SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P |
Gordon Fell
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Posted - 2010.06.12 01:15:00 -
[103]
Originally by: David Grogan
so far i find PI not very interesting
i have colonies on 2 planets and have yet to get it to produce anything worthwhile. most of the time the routes stop working.
honestly im gonna leave PI to the spreadsheet geeks. It offers no fun and just seems to be a boring addition and an excuse for spreadsheet geeks to fire up ms excel or whatever the openoffice version is more often.
Nope, no spreadsheets required. It's a way of visual programming, just apply logic and intelligence. Yup.
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Frozen Pyress
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Posted - 2010.06.12 02:11:00 -
[104]
PI is somewhat interesting, although it takes 6 planets to make barely enough pos fuel to run one pos along with a long list of other flaws. I use PI mostly for the pos fuel; it's kinda nice not having to buy it from npcs anymore, although i still buy from npcs, because I can't produce anywhere near enough fast enough.
PI definitely needs to be more interesting, with a lot of the bugs and other annoyances removed, before Dust 514 has any chance of getting sold. Does CCP think anyone's gonna get a group of people onto Dust 514 to protect a 10k isk mining factory?
My other worry is what happens a year or so from now when npc pos fuel is pulled and most planets are empty of minerals to create pos fuel?
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.06.12 02:20:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Frozen Pyress
I can't produce anywhere near enough fast enough.
You're doing it in highsec, aren't you ?
Quote:
what happens a year or so from now when npc pos fuel is pulled and most planets are empty of minerals to create pos fuel?
Like asteroid belts never run out of ore, the same way planets never run out of extractables, because stuff keeps popping back on a regular basis (no idea hof often for planets, but often enough).
It's actually even better for planets (compared to asteroid belts, that is), they not only replenish periodically, but they also have a minimum total material present (a percentage of maximum), under which you can never go no matter how much you extract.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting
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Frozen Pyress
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Posted - 2010.06.12 02:28:00 -
[106]
Quote:
I'm all for putting NPC items in the hands of players to manufacture, but let's not create yet another system where items will be farmed into virtual worthlessness by hordes of high sec players with a virtual free ride and complete safety with no possible option for an opposing player to destroy their assets.
I don't understand why more people don't have a problem with this. It's poor planning on CCP's part.
You fail to realize that their will be no high-sec and low-sec in Dust 514, so complaining that high-sec players can use PI is irrelavent. The only way to attack a planet is through Dust 514, which is exactly the same in high-sec and 0.0.
Second of all, pos fuel gets consumed like crazy and there is no way 0.0 alliances could supply the need to keep all of Eve's poses running. It would only turn into the moon mining senario where all the good moon mins are only in one system.
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ChickenOfDoom
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Posted - 2010.06.12 02:44:00 -
[107]
PI = Farmville in space
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Kyra Felann
Gallente
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.06.12 05:20:00 -
[108]
Originally by: ChickenOfDoom
PI = Farmville in space
Thanks so much for your completely original and brilliant insight. You are the first person to make such an astute observation. Pardon me while I call up the Nobel prize committee and formally nominate you.
-----SIGNATURE-----
Originally by: CCP Ginger
Ships have crews, most pod controlled frigates do not, above that they have crews of varying sizes. Hope that helps.
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onedarkeye
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Posted - 2010.06.12 13:27:00 -
[109]
well, heres my opinion:
#you don't have to do it
#you don't have to keep an eye on it
#you can do it whilst you do other things e.g mining, mission running etc
so stop complaining
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.06.12 13:39:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Kohana Chayton
I don't feel this way. I personally don't care either way about PI, what I do care about is CCP actually completing what they start. Full-filling their promises to us. And fixing things (like the UI for example) that could be better if a little time and effort were thrown it's way.
Other than that, I am all for new content and new abilities, ships, things to do, etc being added to the game.
This!
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Grez
M. Corp
Daisho Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.12 15:16:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Ekrid
Edited by: Ekrid on 11/06/2010 01:07:41
Originally by: Dogen Myestic
Originally by: Ekrid
Edited by: Ekrid on 10/06/2010 00:06:42
Originally by: Grez
You asked a few people, that doesn't mean you asked 100% of EVE.
Regardless, CCP are expanding on their vision of their game.
If you don't like PI, don't use it.
lol @ this ******.
Every idiot who think's they're being clever says "if you dont like it dont use it".
well I got news for you. the reason they could implement this is because we pay their salary. so Im supposed to pay for something Im not using and be okay with that?
The cool thing is you're not paying for it. Its a free expansion. They could quite reasonably ask you to keep paying for the game in its current state (see every other commercial MMO with paid expansions).
Fact is my friend, they don't charge for the expansions. You're not paying to use it. Seems to me that...
If you don't like PI, don't use it!
the cool thing about this you proved you're an idiot. There's no such thing as "Free". Sure, a cost is hidden in something else, that doesn't make it free.
Do you really think that us paying 15$ a month is "free"? I bet you're poor in real life, since you can't seem to grasp basic concepts of labor value.
the devs who make expansions are NOT doing it on their own free time for the love of the game. They're doing it because they get paid. Who pays them? Their management. Where does the management get the money? Subscribers to Eve online.
They continually have cut costs (see: removal of medium shader, classic client, widescreen, and on and on) to keep the "expansions" "free". Faction Warfare was an expansion. why isn't it still being worked on? Oh thats right, cause it'd cost more money, and as it was given without a direct pricetag, further work on it would cost more money than it would bring in. Thats why they orphaned it and it sits in ****ville.
welcome to reality.
You realise they removed that stuff because of the cost of the time it spent to maintain it, not the cost in money. If it came down to a graphics programmer (someone who can write HLSL) having to maintain a separate set of code just for one thing, instead of working on new effects, or polishing existing ones, I know what I'd choose. Plus there's the fact that not many people took advantage of those options. Maintaining something for the minority just doesn't make sense when it's not paying off.
Several of your posts give off the aura that you have no idea what you're talking about. I'm a software engineer (1st degree), and am doing a games design course to hopefully go straight into game development (HLSL or senior programming pos.). I can apply many of the things I've been taught in the S/W dev. alone to the games programming side of making an MMO; you on the other hand have no experience, and are just blowing chunks as far as I'm concerned.
Learn about what you preach before you preach it. If ever there was an opposite to fanboy, you're it.
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Jekyl Eraser
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Posted - 2010.06.12 15:32:00 -
[112]
PI is awesome untill you get things running and start the mad monkey doubleclicking. So it goes to the same category as 0.01 ISK market spam.
Doubleclicking 10minutes straight... that is whats broken in PI
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.12 16:31:00 -
[113]
My impression of PI is a resounding "meh".
At first I made money by going different routes but eventually I just set up rings of noble metal extractors on various different planets. 5 hours nets me a few million for basically no work, so that's cool I guess, but the market is unstable as all hell. It'll eventually become viable because supply and demand is a wonderfully balancing thing, but I don't expect it to be worth much in the meantime.
There are some interesting gameplay elements to it, but the interface is a pain when you have mass extractors (icon, survey, cycle, confirm, icon, survey, cycle, confirm). I'm guessing that's actually intentional to a degree though, so who knows.
As a further step towards a player run economy, it's a Good Thing, but as a feature, it leaves me kind of cold. I always appreciate new systems, but there are too many bigger outstanding issues to really make PI seem worth its while.
What PI seems to me is first steps towards strapping Dust and Eve together. I get the feeling Incarna, when it comes out, will be much along the same lines; Not so much a thing in and of itself, but a bridge. I have the sneaking suspicion that much of the time spend producing Tyrannis was in implementing under-the-hood stuff for interfacing with Dust, which would explain why this expansion seems so paltry compared to previous ones.
That said, Tyranis doesn't really have anything of interest for me.
Sorry Devs. I appreciate the thought.
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Jypsie
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Posted - 2010.06.12 19:10:00 -
[114]
My experience has been as a light user, <30 minutes per day in high security space when I log on to manage before heading on to my usual gameplay activities.
My current opinion on PI is that for those that truely understand the Market and Industry system in Eve that it will be a nice addition as there is money to be made, either by those who have successfuly analyzed the current situation or have enough foresight to see what will happen in a few months when the NPC orders no longer exist and the laws of supply and demand take over. Even stockpiling now will not erase the effects that will happen. Personally I'm waitng for the days when disgruntled employees start running off with frieghters full of POS fuels instead of ships to start really messing with their ex-employers.
Companies based in 0.0 that have good industial backbones will benefit from the further independence from Empire Space.
Individuals who have not researched or planned and have just thrown the most expensive CC they could at a random planet in high security space will be removing isk from the system and eventually getting out of the PI market when they realise it wasn't the instant cash explosion they were hoping for.
Just in time for the market to finally take life of its own after the removal of NPC supply I hope.
In all, I like it.
One suggestion I would make would be a grouping system somewhat similar to RTS's that would allow for a quick drag-box selection of units to give commands.
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Lance Hawke
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.12 19:57:00 -
[115]
If I can't blow it up, then it must gtfo!
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Gavin Miner
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Posted - 2010.06.12 20:18:00 -
[116]
I haven't broken even on PI yet.
heck probably won't I spent about 100 million on CCs skill books and spent a couple weeks of training time getting trained.
that said I can keep a medium POS fueled entirely with highsec produced materials with the couple alts doing the work. so all told I'd say its a reasonable level of payment, just don't expect L4 mission runner type income, I'd guess with care you could produce 50 million a month in profits from low sec PI work, which is chump change BUT it takes 2 minutes a day and 15 minutes once a week to pick up the materials and ferry them to highsec for sale.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.12 20:19:00 -
[117]
I fear that that if any reasonable profit is in PI then bots will swarm all over it. One of the worst design decision is, that extractors are more efficient when set to a 5h cycle. That basically means that only human players having an advantage from it, are unemployed insomniacs. Of course it is no problem for a bot programmed to restart the extraction every 5h.
This is one of the worst design decisions regarding gameplay. The other concern is, that PI is as dry as an excel sheet and only marginally more fun.
Games like Alpha Centauri, Civilisation, Masters of Magic ll handled colonisation much better.
PI has a few good ideas but it already demonstrated that it does more harm then good to the economy of EVE, so I recommend to CCP to remove the Command Centers, reimburse the players and revert all changes caused by PI and then put that thing at least for another 6 month or perhaps even a year or two back in development.
Quote:
Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done
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Juyna
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Posted - 2010.06.14 06:09:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Grez
You realise they removed that stuff because of the cost of the time it spent to maintain it, not the cost in money. If it came down to a graphics programmer (someone who can write HLSL) having to maintain a separate set of code just for one thing, instead of working on new effects, or polishing existing ones, I know what I'd choose. Plus there's the fact that not many people took advantage of those options. Maintaining something for the minority just doesn't make sense when it's not paying off.
Several of your posts give off the aura that you have no idea what you're talking about. I'm a software engineer (1st degree), and am doing a games design course to hopefully go straight into game development (HLSL or senior programming pos.). I can apply many of the things I've been taught in the S/W dev. alone to the games programming side of making an MMO; you on the other hand have no experience, and are just blowing chunks as far as I'm concerned.
ROFL. Listen to the real programmer guys. (like 50% of eve players aren't programmers.)
Pro tip: time is money. Sounds catchy and deep hey? You may have even heard it before.
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Paint Thinner
Amarr
The Grubs
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Posted - 2010.06.14 06:10:00 -
[119]
Decent base tech that has no business on a live server for multiple reasons, most of which have been pointed out already. Also, while I can appreciate the need for reiteration and changes at the design level, what we have now is not even remotely similar to what was discussed at fanfest.
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Delphina Noctous
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Posted - 2010.06.14 06:56:00 -
[120]
I make my POS fuel for free. Only takes a few clicks once every 24 hours. other than that I could care less. Now I don't have to worry about leaving my area for NPC parts.
If I was doing it for money I'd be ****ed. 120 000 000 isk/hour is hard to beat I agree but this was like 1 000 000 isk/hour. :(
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