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Letrange
Minmatar
Chaosstorm Corporation
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2010.06.11 18:25:00 -
[1]
I need to do more testing but I'm definitely getting material loss when I'm doing controlled production. At this point I suspect that it is caused by downtime causing the loss of the output side of a processor cycle while the input side keeps working. So for example when I start with 800 units each of an P1 material (going from storage to facility to storage) and I use a schematic to transform it into a P2 at an advanced production facility I end up with 95 units of the P2. Based on what I saw last night as I was starting the job and what I saw this morning after downtime but before the job finished, I'm suspecting that downtime is the culprit. I'll be doing some tests to confirm things over the next few days.
I also need to test this on basic factories. I dread having to test this on the high tech factories (gah waste of good P3 stuff that way).
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.06.11 18:46:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Abrazzar on 11/06/2010 18:46:26
At least now I know where the stuff is coming from that fills up my PCCs after downtime. 
(that's another bug of which I have no clue really what is causing it, fractional unit leftovers maybe.)
--------
All I want is a better mankind.
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Letrange
Minmatar
Chaosstorm Corporation
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2010.06.12 04:19:00 -
[3]
experiment 1: Put one hour of reactants in a storage bin. that has no outgoing routes. Set the outgoing routes to an advanced factory. hit submit and come back in an hour
Results: expected results (i.e. 40 of each P1 -> 5 P2
Experiment 2: Put two hours - same as above
Results: expected results ( 80 -> 10 )
Experiment 3: Put 3h - same as before.
Results: pending
(note that I've now had 4 jobs that were 800 of each -> 95 and all 4 jobs started before and finished after downtime.
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Durente Galaica
Amarr
Fortunate Few
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Posted - 2010.06.12 04:56:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Durente Galaica on 12/06/2010 05:02:21
Try testing it on the test server if you don't want to waste 'real' isk. I know I felt like I was losing some loads every now and again on factory only planets. But I never did rule out self error, in my initial quantities I placed. (I was testing a lot of things simultaneously)
But I did notice a few times after setting up reactions with a days worth of products IĘd come back and some of the chains were + produced on the final load when I felt like they shouldnĘt have been.
Also, check your routes! See if you accidently have more than one route of the same type into a factory. I think after I went through and looked at my routes, there were a few I was doubling up on accidentally. For some reason that caused a missing load at one point in the day. (downtime may have been it, I didnĘt investigate it further)
After I fixed my routes, it didn't happen any more. Is that a bug or was a spared the more serious losing a complete load every hour instead of just one, I canĘt say. ItĘs hard to test something like that without knowing the full requirements.
EDIT: I also wanted to addd it was a loss and not a 'I generated free mats out of thin air' type of mechanic
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Letrange
Minmatar
Chaosstorm Corporation
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2010.06.12 10:19:00 -
[5]
Well, I never installed a client for Sisi. Meanwhile on with the experiment.
result 3: expected: 120 (x2) P1 -> 15 P2
Experiment 4: 1 cycle starting 55min before downtime and a separate one 2 cycles also starting 5 min before downtime. Both these should have a delivery during downtime. This is the litmus test to confirm the loss is occurring due to non-delivery during downtime.
result 4: pending.
As before the method to ensure start time is simple: I have 2 advanced production facilities connected to a spaceport. I clear all outgoing routes but leave the incoming routes alone at the spaceport. Then I import/expedite transfer required materials for the number of cycles of each input material for the two schematics I have setup in the two processors. Then I establish all 4 outbound routes at the spaceport waiting until the correct time to hit submit. This allows for great control over the sequencing and timing of the production.
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Letrange
Minmatar
Chaosstorm Corporation
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2010.06.13 16:29:00 -
[6]
Ok I wasn't able to reproduce the problem with the short runs in experiment 4. However I was able to reproduce the problem with some advanced industrial facilities who's cycles were out of sync. The results on the other side of downtime showed the cycles now sync'ed and some input materials missing. Determined by the output count - i.e. the output was what I would expect by that point in time but the input side was suddenly short on 2 of the schematics. I assume the materials got blown up either in the current production cycle or on the input hoppers. Probably it killed the existing production cycle on those that it was syncing with.
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CCP Zymurgist
Gallente
C C P
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Posted - 2010.06.13 16:36:00 -
[7]
Hi Letrange, I hope you have submitted your Bug Report on this 
Zymurgist
Community Representative
CCP Hf, EVE Online
Contact Us |
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Letrange
Minmatar
Chaosstorm Corporation
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2010.06.14 17:12:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Hi Letrange, I hope you have submitted your Bug Report on this
Indeed I have (#96977) although I'm going to have to continue testing as it seems not to be related to downtime, but to your cycle synchronization method. Whatever is doing the cycle synchronization is causing the material loss. I just had a loss that started and finished outside of downtime so I need to change that part. It's definitely related to the synchronization though. Grrr more testing to get a 100% reproducable bug... I'm on track though.
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Letrange
Minmatar
Chaosstorm Corporation
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2010.06.16 19:44:00 -
[9]
well last night I did some short runs but I did them after I had all the extractors already running and with incoming routes coming from different storage than the outgoing routes were desined to. No material loss under these conditions. However I'll need to test doing the extractor scanning during and after assigning production routes and also to source and destination to from/to the same storage (both conditions I think were operating when I had the material loss).
Sorry it's taking so long to nail down the issue but kinda tricky to test with the delays setup in the system.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.06.16 20:11:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 16/06/2010 20:13:53
I've experience a similar problems, but can't offer much insight on causes, but here are my observations.
1) In one case all my input materials (superconductors & synthetic oil) were consume by an advanced processor on a lava planet and no output was produced. This occurred with re-filling empty storage, a starport, a production chain that had functioned with no apparent flaws the previous day. There was a downtime during the functional batch and the disappearing batch.
2) I've noticed that, even when equal amounts of input material are originally placed in storage for the chain, some storage contains unequal amounts of input materials, after downtime.
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Lucura
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Posted - 2010.06.16 20:56:00 -
[11]
I too have noticed this on 3 separate productions (t1->t2), each production has inexplicably failed twice, ie I have lost 2 cycles. This occurred on a lava planet, and they were Transmitters, Biocells, and Supertensile Plastics. I don't have a lot of time this week to test causes, but just wanted to support the claim that there's a bug here somewhere.
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Glarion Garnier
Thermal reaction
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Posted - 2010.06.16 23:44:00 -
[12]
I have done test with two accounts. Both times when I paid atention to the amounts.
Advanced industry facilities took twice the amount of materials to produce a next phase product.
I have allso noticed that many times there was like 3400 P1 material and the basic indutry facility did not start after taking 100% of those 3400 materials but instead it shows 75% or something on those lines.
With 10 input on P2 i have verfified the facility to take 20.
I have bug reported.
_________________________________
-be vary of the men behind the curtain-
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William Mill3r
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Posted - 2010.06.17 03:06:00 -
[13]
Edited by: William Mill3r on 17/06/2010 03:13:37
I had this bug too, and this occured during downtime, I lost 6P3 of each 3 materials (an entire P4). I had been lucky to screenshot 12 minutes before downtime, and 30 minutes after.
Take a look of the screenshots. The buffers are normally not dumped, so it's hard to understand how that happened (probably when my P4 unit got finished during the DT it lost 6 6 6 P3)
It's probably doing it with all processors obviously.
Screenshots of the launchpads:
Before Downtime
After Downtime
In both screenshot, there is one P4 being manufactured, and 6 6 6 P3 in the buffer.
and I made a production of 60 60 60 P3, total 10P4, I end up with 9.
Submitted this as a bug report, back then.
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.06.17 14:00:00 -
[14]
I've been running into this as well. There are definitely some interacting issues. I have a 16-advanced, 4-high-tech installation making Nano-factories, and if I load it up (two spaceports) with the materials for 96 factories (1920 of each of the P2s and 3840 of the P1), at the end of the run typically 2 or 3 nano-factories are missing, and the high-techs are partially loaded for their final runs.
So it seems clear the place to look is in the advanced factories doing the P2->P3 step. Given that this installation doesn't start cycling until the last of the P2 components is imported, that means that I have 16 advanced processors cycling simultaneously.
Another thing I have noticed, which may be related, is if you have several possible destinations for an input material, the destination appears to be picked at random, instead of the more optimal choice, which is to pick the destination that is the closest to being "ready to cycle".
And finally, I am wondering what happens when a processor reaches the end of its cycle and the destination is full. One would hope it just holds onto its final product and delivers it when space is available. In my current setup this should never happen (because of buffering inside the processors, and the fact that most of the production steps involve volume reduction), but I have to wonder...
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Letrange
Minmatar
Chaosstorm Corporation
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2010.06.17 15:33:00 -
[15]
Frustrating. I'm still trying to reproduce the conditions but I keep failing. There keeps being un-explained losses in the system. BTW it happens at all levels of production. It probably happens at the raw->p1 level as well but since the quantities are so random for that we usually don't notice it anyways.
It seems to be related to whatever mechanism is resetting the extractors from time to time.
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Glarion Garnier
Thermal reaction
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Posted - 2010.06.17 22:03:00 -
[16]
I have now verified the problem that at least happens when you process base material like reactive gas into oxidizing compund. The start takes 6000 units.
I had 84 552 and after installation of one basic industry facility process it's 78552. no other processes active or waiting
After the first run the second batch drops the amount to 75 552 so in this phase it's working correctly.
as a note
How i do my process is as follows. I extract in to a storage facility then I route the materials from the storage facility into a basic industry facility which is set up with a right schematic and is wating for materials.
_________________________________
-be vary of the men behind the curtain-
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Tha Tyger
Minmatar
Legionari
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Posted - 2010.06.19 15:18:00 -
[17]
Same problem here, happens on all tech levels in my testing. Just lost another Wetware Mainframe to this as well =/
My guess is it might have something to do with DT. DT seems to interrupt the cycles, that might cause the production to stop.
Once it tries to pick the production cycle back up it uses a new batch of materials. Atleast so it seems for me, as often
I start production before DT (before I have to go to my job) and check back up at night.
Bug reported under number 97288. Hope there is a reason for this, am losing a lot of money xD
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menacemyth
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Posted - 2010.06.19 19:42:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Letrange
well last night I did some short runs but I did them after I had all the extractors already running and with incoming routes coming from different storage than the outgoing routes were desined to. No material loss under these conditions. However I'll need to test doing the extractor scanning during and after assigning production routes and also to source and destination to from/to the same storage (both conditions I think were operating when I had the material loss).
Sorry it's taking so long to nail down the issue but kinda tricky to test with the delays setup in the system.
Letrange, I've done some experimenting with this. So far I've found that if the items used by the advanced processor are fed by a silo(or spaceport) and static, there is no loss of materials. If the items used by the advanced processor are placed into the silo by another advanced processor I get the loss. and I don't think it's DT related. But in the end, I loose 2 cycles worth. I'm thinking the loss is coming from inconsistencies within the buffer of the advanced processors. Like production of the T3 advanced doesn't start because the T2 item(which just finished) hasn't made it there yet.
Try to do a few runs routing components from a spaceport only. Then do a few runs with at least one component being fed into the spaceport via another advanced processor.
I did this and noticed that all the materials that were only in the spaceport made it there, but the material being fed to the spaceport via another advanced processor didn't always make it there.
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Casmy Blue
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Posted - 2010.06.20 02:33:00 -
[19]
I'm experiencing the same issues as others have noted in this thread.
It is occasionally costing me P4 products.
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Thawed Corpse
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Posted - 2010.06.20 04:19:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Glarion Garnier
I have now verified the problem that at least happens when you process base material like reactive gas into oxidizing compund. The start takes 6000 units.
I had 84 552 and after installation of one basic industry facility process it's 78552. no other processes active or waiting
After the first run the second batch drops the amount to 75 552 so in this phase it's working correctly.
as a note
How i do my process is as follows. I extract in to a storage facility then I route the materials from the storage facility into a basic industry facility which is set up with a right schematic and is wating for materials.
This is clearly a case of you not noting that the processor has a buffer which it fills up when starting a cycle. The buffer also is sent 3000 units in preparation of the next cycle after the just started cycle finishes. That is also why the later resource amounts sent seem to be correct. When the 2nd cycle starts, the buffered materials are used, and the new 3000 units of material fill up the new buffer. Open your processor and look at it carefully and you can see all these details.
That being said, a problem around downtime does not seem at all improbable. A little extra cost to doing business til it gets figured out is all.
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2010.06.20 07:29:00 -
[21]
You guys know/remember that there was a fault that caused routes to cycle EACH time for ONE cycle of an extractor? This way the inputs of each factory cycled as many times as there where extractors on the planet and links didn't fault this, although they where overloaded (volume/time).
This smells like the cycling/routing isn't as hard coded and failproof as it looks like and more that the programmers did make some shortcuts for the way pi structures work together.
 @the guy with the 6k initial take of his storage - try again.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.06.20 13:38:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 20/06/2010 13:43:40
I think I've figured part of it out, extractors not ending. Replenishment.
When replenishment > output per day the extractors keeps running.
10:00 Total Amount left : 5904 @ 82 per hour.
11:58 Total Amount left : 5740 @ 82 per hour.
14:30 Total Amount left : 7462 @ 82 per hour.
82 * 23-24 = 1886 per day
7462 + 82 + 82 (to backtrack 2 hours) = 1886.
I have 4 other extractors doing the same thing on longest cycles.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.06.20 14:26:00 -
[23]
I think I might have a handle on the problem with processors.
I had a 6 Advanced processors making Ukomi superconductors. Taking in Superconductors and synthetic oil.
Yesterday I re-tasked 3 of these to make superconductors. I've just noticed the original supply routes were left intact and I've just deleted these and noticed that for each deleted route I lost one block of 10 super conductors. It looks like put routes are reserving their input supply, even when the processor input buffer is holding something else and deleting the route losses the reserved input supply.
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Throckbane
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Posted - 2010.06.20 17:32:00 -
[24]
Looks like I'm a bit late to the party, but yea I'm getting strange losses.
I wanted to test out t4 processing, so I input the commodities needed for 8 cycles of 3 different products. At the end, all the commodities were consumed. I was left with 7 products of two of the t4 products, and 6 of one of the other.
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Butterless Toast
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Posted - 2010.06.20 18:03:00 -
[25]
I was trying to be very careful creating my P4 products in such a way to avoid this loss. Current hypothesizing seems to be that it happens around downtime, so I arranged my cycles to only run half time, during the day (US TZ).
I still managed to lose a P4 product; the only things I can think of that was different about that cycle vs. the others is that it was the last in the cycle for that day, and also that I logged off when the cycle was only 3 or 4 minutes from completion. It was nowhere near downtime.
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Cisco Zombie
Amarr
Interplanetary Conglomerates
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Posted - 2010.06.20 21:49:00 -
[26]
have noticed a few p4 losses myself, rather annoying indeed.
cz
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Casmy Blue
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Posted - 2010.06.20 22:25:00 -
[27]
I can't track what's causing it.
This morning I imported 240 units of a P2 product to my spaceport. I had 1 P3 factory using 20 of this product every hour. I had 1 P2 factory producing 10 of this product every hour. These were the only two factories on the planet.
You'd think, then, that 240 units would be sufficient to run the P3 factory for 24 hours, since it will deplete at a rate of 10 units per hour. I found, though, that the 240 units depleted far faster than that, on the order of several hours early.
What should have happened is when I woke up 24 hours later, I'd have 0 units of the P2 product and 24 * 3 = 72 units of the P3 product. But, when I checked about 12 hours in, I found that the supply of the P2 product would not be enough to continue running the P3 factory for the remaining 12 hours.
That means at some point in those 12 hours, one or more cycles of the factory producing 10 of the P2 product per hour were lost. All of my factories routed to my spaceport and then to their designated facilities.
I have had this happen many times in the past few days.
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Reygrimm
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Posted - 2010.06.21 01:16:00 -
[28]
I too have observed material and product loss in PI. In my case, my operation is very small regarding numbers to track. I had 1 P4 product in my launchpad, and I had a processor queued up in active cycle to product another unit of the same P4 product. I logged off last night, expecting to log in today and fine "2" units of the P4 product in my launchpad, but instead there were "0".
So definately seems buggy to me at the moment.
Reygrimm
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Ekrund
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.06.21 12:15:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Ekrund on 21/06/2010 12:16:24
I have just been hit by this bug and submitted a petition to CCP to see if they can restore my materials. 2 accounts, 2 separate characters. Both had at least 3/4 full materials in the launch pad. After DT, both characters had lost everything except a few items (10% of the launch pad now full). I put the items on the launch pad about 4 hours before DT but there was enough materials there to run for at least 10 hours...
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Mini Parse
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Posted - 2010.06.21 13:51:00 -
[30]
Hey guys, just reporting my losses, on two accounts during last downtime.
Had 12 P1 and 3 P3 processors going, all of them lost a cycle.
I had already removed all routing so that each processor is connected directly to storage or a spaceport so no transiting through other processors. Also I dumped a whole bunch of P0 in the spaceport so the processors weren't waiting for anything.
I think there's two issues going on:
Downtime
Routing resources to storage where another processor is waiting to grab it and is currently empty or the buffer is empty.
So I've started routing all products to storage and then moving them to another storage unit where the next level processors are expecting them.
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Letrange
Minmatar
Chaosstorm Corporation
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2010.06.21 13:52:00 -
[31]
At least I'm not alone. I just had a sequence of events last night that resulted in both a re-set of the extractors and some material loss last night (ugh 6 P3 out the window). None of my other planets get re-set. Just this one. Also I had setup some schematics and their outbound routes without setting up some inbound routs yet (like to set that up just when I move the materials to the "ongoing proc storage").
The interesting thing is that the night before I noticed the loss I wanted to check some link volumes. So I setup a route in edit mode from the space port. But I never hit submit. I hit cancel. Now I thought I verified the materials and they were not gone. But this morning I shipped some totally un-related product up to the customs office and when I checked the quantities for production suddenly there was a cycle of materials missing. of exactly the item I used for that route test! And the extractors got re-set and the re-set time seems to correspond to the moment I hit the cancel. Of course I never bothered to verify the extractors after I hit cancel on the route setup.
At least this gives more more clues as to how to reproduce this bug. Still not reliably reproduced but I feel like I'm narrowing down on the problem.
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Letrange
Minmatar
Chaosstorm Corporation
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2010.06.22 14:38:00 -
[32]
Welp - another good causality theory shot down in flames.
On the other hand I just got a rather interesting screen shot....
Blog Entry with pics
So as you can see there's a point where the inventory on screen shows more than the server thinks are there. The question is: without an outbound Route - where did those 20 units go? Um... CCP... Just how corrupt is that database? cuz atm a modi****of data consitency would be nice....
Also thanks for resetting my extractors (3 days in a row I haven't needed to restart my 24h extractors...). I must admit that's one bug I'm not complaining too much about although it does throw off my schedule a bit...
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Nyx Opet
Caldari
NibbleTek
RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2010.06.23 02:03:00 -
[33]
confirmed, i knew my math was right.
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Letrange
Minmatar
Chaosstorm Corporation
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2010.06.23 03:13:00 -
[34]
Ooooo Looks like we may have multiple causes of material loss. One of them definitively is related to downtime. See the following blog entry (with pics for proof)
Blog entry with MORE pics of bug
Note that during a single downtime - because of the production geometry - I lost TWO! full cycles during this downtime. Also note the time stamps I overlay-ed into the lower left hand corner of the crops.
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Borun Tal
Minmatar
Wacom Research
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Posted - 2010.06.23 21:18:00 -
[35]
Letrange, I'm running a total of ten (10) colonies, and easily half of them are losing materials. I just don't have the patience and isk to keep tearing stuff down and rebuilding it all to try tracking the problem down, so keep up the good work! Maybe CCP is watching and will address these PI issues shortly.
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Casmy Blue
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Posted - 2010.06.23 21:35:00 -
[36]
I'm just confirming that when I put a P4 product into production at around 55 minutes before DT tonight, when I checked back after DT, the hopper was empty (no P3 products) but there was no P4 end result.
So DT is obviously at least one of the issues. Right now, I won't let any output happen during DT for P4 or P3 stuff.
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Maduka Takiman
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Posted - 2010.06.23 21:52:00 -
[37]
I've also lost production over the last few days...
But how many am i going to loose with the extended downtime of the server move?
I can hardy wait...
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Narfas Deteis
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Posted - 2010.06.23 22:03:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Narfas Deteis on 23/06/2010 22:07:04
Originally by: Maduka Takiman
I've also lost production over the last few days...
But how many am i going to loose with the extended downtime of the server move?
I can hardy wait...
Hmm... In my case: around 64xP4, 384xP3, not counting P1-P2.
It's 200-250m ISK.
Thank you, CCP.
Any chance for reimbursement? I don't think so.
Only one good thing is I had no time to establish full production network.
Edit: correction, I did some calculations and it should be over 1500xP3. Thank you again.
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Narfas Deteis
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Posted - 2010.06.24 15:03:00 -
[39]
There's a chance that after this (very) extended downtime we will see this bug in all it's glory.
I should receive 25-50 x P4 from each installation (not counting P0-P3) and I wouldn't be surprised if I find only 5-6 x P4 per installation, produced before server shutdown.
Let's see.
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Ludacrys
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Posted - 2010.06.24 16:17:00 -
[40]
all my PI **** is gone and with no products to show for, good job CCP
extended downtime just costed me like 500m isk
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Reygrimm
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Posted - 2010.06.25 02:46:00 -
[41]
I actually didn't see anything noticeable regarding weird pi behavior and material loss with the extended downtime. But I didn't have a ton of stuff queued up either.
I did have my first timeout with a set of extractors set to 96 hours though. It looked like all my 96hr extractors basically had a day or 2 subtracted from their runtime. So if for days I was getting timers reset to 2days,23 hours, they are all now reading 1 day,23 hours, as an example.
Should be back in business though now to keep tabs on things.
Reygrimm |
Qwert0
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Posted - 2010.06.25 04:12:00 -
[42]
I just did a small scale test of P4 production to get an idea of the set up for it. Stuck 60 of each P3 into the spaceport, and when i came back a few hours later I got only 5 of the p4 back, instead of the 6 I should have. |
Letrange
Minmatar
Chaosstorm Corporation
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2010.06.25 15:23:00 -
[43]
Well, I only lost a little bit of material to the seriously extended downtime. Looks like it was just the last cycle on the P3. So I was able to do a single P3 cycle to finish off.
Then I set up the P4 run (last P3 feeding material to the P4 cycle). Ouchy. Just checked this morning and even though I tried to time it to straddle the downtime, downtime must have been full sized today since I got nailed for 2 P4 items. Thanks CCP. I notice my bug report is still not filtered. {sarcasm}Glad to see the bug hunting is going well on the new content...{/sarcasm}
Side comment: I don't know if Sisi's downtime is identical to TQ but this may not be reproducible on Sisi, which would make the whole bug hunting thing useless in this case. The lack of response other than "submit a bug report" on this leads me to believe it may be a while before we any progress on this if ever. Brilliant. If I sound ****ed it's because the method of getting around the bug involves waking up early to start stuff right after downtime... Fraking inconvenient...
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Reygrimm
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Posted - 2010.06.25 15:39:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Qwert0
I just did a small scale test of P4 production to get an idea of the set up for it. Stuck 60 of each P3 into the spaceport, and when i came back a few hours later I got only 5 of the p4 back, instead of the 6 I should have.
Qwert0, You should have had 10 I think? The P4s need 6 of each P3 item. 60/6=10. Unless there's something I'm missing here...
That's actually kinda interesting if you got back exactly half (5) of what you should have gotten (10). If you could reproduce it, might go a ways to get a simple scenario to help track down the bug.
Keep the faith guys!
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Letrange
Minmatar
Chaosstorm Corporation
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2010.06.25 17:48:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Reygrimm
Originally by: Qwert0
I just did a small scale test of P4 production to get an idea of the set up for it. Stuck 60 of each P3 into the spaceport, and when i came back a few hours later I got only 5 of the p4 back, instead of the 6 I should have.
Qwert0, You should have had 10 I think? The P4s need 6 of each P3 item. 60/6=10. Unless there's something I'm missing here...
That's actually kinda interesting if you got back exactly half (5) of what you should have gotten (10). If you could reproduce it, might go a ways to get a simple scenario to help track down the bug.
Keep the faith guys!
You are correct sir, he should have had 10 at the end. Most of the losses happen during downtime where various strange and unsavory things seem to be happening.
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TLWE
Dark Angel Confederation
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Posted - 2010.06.26 14:08:00 -
[46]
Edited by: TLWE on 26/06/2010 14:07:45
Loss is always 20% in tier4 finished goods.
I am sure it happens during transportation.
It happens independently from DT, though my first impression was also it was somehow connected with DT synchronization, but it is not the only case.
Already wrote topic on this subject in this group.
Already 1 week before moving tyranis from singularity to tranquility i filled bug report on singularity about it.
My petition about this issue on tranquility already is closed.
My educated guess is, it is some form of dust514 integration really and therefore CCP is not fixing it. 
--
B=g, Honor, Nar=d. Semper Fidelis.
Nec Hercules Contra Plures. |
Ulviirala Vauryndar
Gallente
Vauryndar Dalharil
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Posted - 2010.06.26 18:21:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Ulviirala Vauryndar on 26/06/2010 18:21:55
Similar here.
I DEFINATELY put 48 units of tier 3 products into a launchpad to produce 8 units of a tier 4 product in a single hitech fac, that each need 6 units of t3. 48 / 6 = 8. For the second time I've lost items now. I thought I made an error when it happened the first time but I'm a 100% I did not when it happened the second time now.
The hi-tech facility sits there with 6 units of one item in the queue and nothing of the others, only 6 units have been produced in total, the additional expenses for these tier items are rather unbearable.
Routing generally could be improved which I tried to outline here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1308696&page=21#603.
Unfortunately I can't find the time to thoroughly go through it on Sisi atm and see what has been done already and what not, and this issue is rather time extensive to try to reproduce.
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Sally Orefield
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Posted - 2010.06.27 09:02:00 -
[48]
I did a T3->T4 production and imported resources that should have produced 395 T4 output. After all input had been consumed, I got 350 T4 products. I checked the factories. Remaining input there amounted to a total of what's needed for about 1 unit T4. So that's 395 - 350 - 1 = 44 T4 units missing which accounts to a loss of about 90mil isk at current market value. More than 10% of input materials just disappeared. What's going wrong here?
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
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Posted - 2010.06.27 09:15:00 -
[49]
i have noticed that all of my losses are equal or divisible by number of factories, and happen after downtime. something funky is going on during downtime.
________________________________
: Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
Narfas Deteis
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Posted - 2010.06.27 12:46:00 -
[50]
Confirming that I loose 1 output from each factory, so 1 unit of P4 disappears from each installation and then P4 manufacturing plant has to wait for another cycle of P3 manuf. plants and sometimes even P3 manufacturing plants have to wait for another cycle of P2 production.
Result: 2-3 units of P4 lost after each downtime for each P4 installation. It's around 20 P4s in my case.
No information concerning this bug in patch notes on Sisi.
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Letrange
Minmatar
Chaosstorm Corporation
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2010.06.27 13:34:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Letrange on 27/06/2010 13:34:08
Originally by: Narfas Deteis
Confirming that I loose 1 output from each factory, so 1 unit of P4 disappears from each installation and then P4 manufacturing plant has to wait for another cycle of P3 manuf. plants and sometimes even P3 manufacturing plants have to wait for another cycle of P2 production.
Result: 2-3 units of P4 lost after each downtime for each P4 installation. It's around 20 P4s in my case.
No information concerning this bug in patch notes on Sisi.
If you or someone who's got sisi configured could see if this is reproducible on sisi and bug report it if it is, that would be nice. Not sure sisi's downtime is the same as TQ's which may be part of the problem. The bug hunter was asking if this was already fixed - I indicated that still not as of two days ago. I suspect they'll miss this one this patch round.
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Narfas Deteis
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Posted - 2010.06.27 13:55:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Letrange
If you or someone who's got sisi configured could see if this is reproducible on sisi and bug report it if it is, that would be nice. Not sure sisi's downtime is the same as TQ's which may be part of the problem. The bug hunter was asking if this was already fixed - I indicated that still not as of two days ago. I suspect they'll miss this one this patch round.
It's not fixed yet. (checked after today's DT)
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2010.06.28 00:39:00 -
[53]
I suspect is 2 issues in losses.
The 1st I petitioned as it appears to me that the routing to processors has errors. This is caused I think by multiple processor handling back server-side. If you have a route from say the launchpad to a processign factory, it should have only 1 process handle it server side. I suspect what is happening is while 1 processor starts to handle it, a 2nd decides to also handle it before the 1st completes.
If you have a processor factory complete its cycle, it has materials to send back to the destination like a launchpad. It also moves the materials from 100% supplied to start the next process and changes the source materials to 0%. Now I suspect they have the factory does a check itself and tries to resupply when this happens, and while this happens a 2nd process may decided to send it another load from storage/launchpad. The result is 2 server side processors doing the delivery of source materials to the factory giving an over suply and loss. I suggested in my petition that they error check it, if over supply and came from storage/launchpad that it returns it - ie no loss.
Now the loss of the factory production is different and I've still not thought out how it can happen, just I know it is. I have some p4 production, 96 P4 components a day (4 high-tech turning out 24/7). I keep couple of planets fully supplied runing 24/7. I produce what should be equal numbers of the different P4 components with 2 different P4 components on each planet. Reality is the numbers dont match. On one planet the difference has grown as much as '7' and currently has shunk back to '4' which shows the loss are not consistent and ongoing. My 2nd planet currently has 3 difference.
The problems seam to be on all the basic/advanced/high-tech processors. Its just as fewer numbers of the P4 production, one notices more easily. Its still a fairly small loss, but it all adds up.
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Ulviirala Vauryndar
Gallente
Vauryndar Dalharil
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Posted - 2010.06.28 03:54:00 -
[54]
I wonder if we can have a hotfix for this, please? Preferably two downtimes ago :P
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caldar ian
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Posted - 2010.06.28 04:33:00 -
[55]
Im loosing stuff when i luanch from planet.
robotics before luanch is over a 1000, after launch the can only has 960
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2010.06.28 06:12:00 -
[56]
... attempted reply #5 keeps dropping me off.
logged 3 petitions today, 2 for PI stuff.
I lost 2700 water when moving from customs. I was watching the water, saw the amount in the customs can drop the 2700. The planet amount remained unchanged. It was 1900 before it had 2700 more moved to it, was 1900 after the 'extra' 2700 moved.
Got me thnking about my water production. I have 13 basic processors kept suplpied 24/7 making water. 13x20x48 = 12480/day. I'm using water to the amount of 9600/day. ie should be seeing a growing stockpile by 2880/day - I'm not. I have less water stockpile now than had 4 days ago. I'm not using it, so that leaves losing it. Have likes of 2700 disappear in one hit can see how can lose a lot quickly. Before the above 2700 lose had noticed like of 20 and 40 amounts, but never 2700 loss from customs. That was petition #2 today.
The 3rd pettion was not customs, but planet side. I have 2 planets making 96 P4 components/day - well I would if I wasn't losing them. On one planet I've kept the supply of materials even to produce finished P4 components so I should see even production numbers - I'm not. Planet #1 has 5 more of one P4 component than the other, planet #2 has 3 different. These numbers aren't static, they keep changing. Yesterday was up to 7 on #1 and down to 2 on #2. I have on the planet I was keeping an eye on 42 more smartfab produced than vacines while both processors been runing 24/7. Now its possible to have some difference as the vaccines process intially had to wait 1 cycle for viral agent while the smartfab process had no wait as npc purchased construction blocks and miniature electronics. 1 cycle for 2 advanced processors (while waiting for the viral agent to be produced) would be 12 smartfab - I have 42. Given that the smartfab would then just move to be used in sterile conduit production, it should actually be 0. Both P4 production wait for production like the sterile conduits wait for the vaccines so the numbers from P4 production should still be equal. Is definate loss of materials from the production output, not just from the input side. There is definately also losses from the input side.
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Qwert0
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Posted - 2010.06.28 06:14:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Letrange
Originally by: Reygrimm
Originally by: Qwert0
I just did a small scale test of P4 production to get an idea of the set up for it. Stuck 60 of each P3 into the spaceport, and when i came back a few hours later I got only 5 of the p4 back, instead of the 6 I should have.
Qwert0, You should have had 10 I think? The P4s need 6 of each P3 item. 60/6=10. Unless there's something I'm missing here...
That's actually kinda interesting if you got back exactly half (5) of what you should have gotten (10). If you could reproduce it, might go a ways to get a simple scenario to help track down the bug.
Keep the faith guys!
You are correct sir, he should have had 10 at the end. Most of the losses happen during downtime where various strange and unsavory things seem to be happening.
You are right, for some reason I had it in my head that it took 10 units, not 6. One thing to note is that this did NOT occur over a downtime, but just randomly while I was afk.
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Letrange
Minmatar
Chaosstorm Corporation
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2010.06.28 14:17:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Qwert0
You are right, for some reason I had it in my head that it took 10 units, not 6. One thing to note is that this did NOT occur over a downtime, but just randomly while I was afk.
I have seen that. Mind you it's much rarer.
My suspicions that we're not going to see any fixes for this for months however seem to be confirming themselves. Apparently the bug hunters don't understand PI enough so that the nice instructions and pictures that I posted on my blog and sent to them were insufficient to setup a test to try to reproduce the bug... Face-palm!!!!
Meanwhile the wholesale destruction of PI materials by CCP continues unabated.
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Ilikebiggunz
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Posted - 2010.06.28 14:42:00 -
[59]
This is clearly CCP's response to the npc reserves. It will stop after the reserves are gone, without patch notes.
Alternatively, less tin foil, they have more important things to worry about. Like fleet lag in 0.0.
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Erovicious
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.06.28 18:53:00 -
[60]
I have also been noticing a loss in product. I will carefully measure the components needed to produce X amount of finished product. At the end, there is ALWAYS components scattered about throughout the factories in various states of 'waiting for resources' and I will be short a certain amount of finished goods.
First thing that could be done to help fix this would be to make factories only pull resources when all of the required components are available - no more of this partial pull stuff.
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2010.06.28 20:33:00 -
[61]
I suspect the problem on the PI end is when there is an error - just reset and lose all materials input/output.
It used to be the same with the training queue and took months for that to be sorted. When it screwed up it would often drop the skill it was training like it had never been set to train in the first place, nor had however many hours training been spent ...
I suspect similar on the PI side. Its possible when there is an error (input/output - whocares where) the PI currently set to just reset and start again - hence material loss. Some error recovery code trying to return materials if supply side error if supplied from launchpad/storage (suggested in my petition) vs loss would be nice.
Its easy enough to check material loss. Just set a planet up with likes of say 30 hours of production like I have, add materials for the whole production setup and when the 30 hours is up, count up how many P4 modules produced, adjust figures for materials held up in processors. Can put isk on it the materials and resulting products wont match up to those that went in to start with. Dont care much about the isk value and its too hard to calculate. Would be nice for it to be consistant though.
Even the mateials held up in production shouldn't be happening much. Take my production of 2 P4 components on a planetary production setup - Sterile conduits and recursive computing modules.
Have P2 production of viral agent x4, super tensile plastics x4, test cultures x4. This uses bacteria/biomass/oxygen/water. The only p1 magterial that is also used later is water used in sterile conduits, ie if put in bit extra water you have the problem sorted in all the rest of the production should flow through to P4 stage with nothing else hung up except from losses.
Now 1x sterile conduit needs 6 smartfab (20 construction blocks and 20 miniature electronics), 6 vaccines (20 livesstock, 20 viral agent where viral agent is 160 bacteria and biomass). 1x recursive computing module needs 6 synthetic plastics (160 oxygen/biomass-> 20x supertensile plastics, plus 160 bacteria/water-> 20x test cultures), 6 guidance systems, 6 transcranial micro controllers. If you decide to produce 30 hours that means you need:
- 180 transcranial micro controllers (npc purchased)
- 180 guidance systems (npc purchased)
- 600 livestock (npc purchased)
- 600 construction blocks (npc purchased)
- 600 miniature electronics (npc purchased)
- 9600 bacteria
- 9600 biomass
- 4800 oxygen
- 6000 water. Since can have water hang-up in the cycles waiting for more test cultures, put 160 extra to supply 100% to the test cultures, hence 6160, of which 6000 will be used. How do I fit it all in? well thats easy, use 2 pads. 1st with bacteria/biomass/oxygen, 2nd with the rest which also collects the p4 production. I used to run closer to 24 hours with the setup, squeezed it up to 30 hours so could leave it longer.
Let it run 32 hours and should have 30 sterile conduits, 30 recursive computing modules, 160 water supppying the 4x test cultures processors 100%, ie held up. If they do this on Tranquility curently the odds of getting 30 of each P4 component are very, very low. And thats only looking at PI, not the customs transfer errors. 2700 water I saw disappear yesterday. Ccp will ask for my screen shot - but I dont have any before shot as if I wasn't expecting the error so didn't take one. But like most things you dont expect so can hardly take screen shots every 2 secs waiting for it to screw up. The solution for this would be a simple log which for anything new like PI I would have switched on at least for the first month or so till its runing nicely. Then it would be quite easy for them to look back in the log, check if I did have 2700 transfered, notice that the transfer threw an error. That would be possible except the petition/bug handlers dont have access to such logs if they even exist.
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Directors Assistant
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.06.29 00:14:00 -
[62]
So, I recently got into advanced Pi, and yes, materials loss exists.
I've set up an elite cc high tech production planet in highsec, no extraction. It's configured to produce a P4 continuously, so it has one high tech factory, 6 advanced factories creating the P3 product required (3x2) and 16 advanced's (4x4) producing 4 of the P2 required; the remaining 2 P2 and all P1 are imported into 3 spaceports supporting the installation. 27 pins in all.
All output is routed to spaceports, and routed from those into the appropriate inputs where required; yes, it's set up correctly, no links are overloaded and everything is routed as it should be, it works OK, except:
Having previously seen some cycling problems with output apparently not successfully being routed to inputs on the same tick, I decided to maintain a small buffer of the necessary materials, just enough so that there would be stuff in storage to cover the possible event of 'stuff being needed before it's delivered.' One cycle's worth of each of the locally produced P2s and P3s.
Since production started 3 days ago that buffer has disappeared while I've been asleep.
Twice, perhaps coincidentally over two downtimes. All of it.
I'm losing 4 x 20 P2 and 3 x 6 P3 a day.
I haven't kept a close watch on P4 production numbers and depletion of P1s and the imported P2s but I will from now on.
Talk about shrinkage!! I guess the residents of my planet aren't happy with the wages and working conditions.
WTB: Planetary manager with adequate skills in materials handling and security!
Unless it's going to go away with "improved memory usage for PIN's" I see no mention of a fix in the patch notes  I guess market pricing will simply have to take stock shrinkage into account as it does in rl 
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Jongo Fett
Caldari
Save Yourself Inc.
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Posted - 2010.06.29 13:59:00 -
[63]
Ive experienced this bug as well, very irritating lost 1 cycle of every p4 material i was producing :(
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2010.06.29 21:47:00 -
[64]
Just collected my 24 hours of production. 96x P4's so in the last 24 hours I've not lost a P4. I think this is the first time.
But it seams its getting better ... I wont make any claims its fixed, but a full production vs losses is definately better.
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David Fairtrade
Amarr
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.06.30 15:10:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Jongo Fett
Ive experienced this bug as well, very irritating lost 1 cycle of every p4 material i was producing :(
Yes, exactly my experience: 1 cycle of my P4 material (Broadcast Node) lost. But strangely, since I switched to a different commodity, I have received the lost commodities after downtime the last 2 days. They stick out like a sore thumb because I am no longer producing them.
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David Fairtrade
Amarr
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.07.01 15:10:00 -
[66]
Edited by: David Fairtrade on 01/07/2010 15:11:12
Originally by: David Fairtrade
Originally by: Jongo Fett
Ive experienced this bug as well, very irritating lost 1 cycle of every p4 material i was producing :(
Yes, exactly my experience: 1 cycle of my P4 material (Broadcast Node) lost. But strangely, since I switched to a different commodity, I have received the lost commodities after downtime the last 2 days. They stick out like a sore thumb because I am no longer producing them.
I am still receiving 1 Broadcast Node per day after downtime. They have given me more than I have lost now. This is one bug I don't feel like reporting @ 2.5 kk a day for free.
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