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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.06.14 08:30:00 -
[31]
Miners need to ask CCP to make mining more difficult and/or dangerous if they want to see an increase in their income.
In the short term, if miners organised a campaign against macrominers, that would probably help some. Now that the insurance subsidy has been removed, every miner is in direct competition with every other miner.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
israus
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Posted - 2010.06.14 09:59:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Jay Wareth
The same is true for macro miners; they could "Create ISK" this way, but it would not be profitable for them as an individual.
sure it would just it wouldn't be as profitable as other things they could do with the ore :D
back to the point of the minerals. what CCP was doing with this was always going to be a balancing act. problem is the balance right now is that there is to much ore coming into the game. prices of the high ends was always going to drop post patch they had been massively inflated in the run up.
but what I find interesting is a quote from the QEN
Quote:
The goal of this change is to bring hourly loot refining mineral yields from mission running to levels at or below the yield that can be attained directly from mining.
so essentially a good mission runner can still produce as many minerals for the market as a miner in the same space of time. and if deflation continues through this quarter and becomes a long term trend then we'll see more action from CCP to slow the input of minerals onto the market.
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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.06.14 10:34:00 -
[33]
I have long supported a change from rats dropping meta loot to dropping BPCs.
Divide the drop rate by ~8, change the drops to PE/ME:0 10-run BPCs which can either be built - thus consuming minerals instead of supplying them - or used directly for invention. This would have the additional benefit of being a minor Invention buff, and it would also mean that a much greater proportion of the loot from rats would actually have some value.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Ikonia
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Posted - 2010.06.14 10:43:00 -
[34]
Well, it was as i stated weeks ago: This is just another trial to squeeze carebears to move into lowsec.
PI is a nice feature. But it is balanced to make low ISK steadily and you will need a long, very long time to compensate the investment. It is time intensive, it is cheap to build up and it cant be demolished. From a positive point of view, it charms some of us carebears to get some of the low sec planets for PI. But simply, it is again a trial to enforce players to interact in lowsec.
Not that i would fear, to move into lowsec. I guess, i could get along there rather fine. But still it is too risky, to loose some of the hard earned ISK. You are bound to move in groups and fleets. Movin alone, will 100% somewhen in short or long cost you a ship or more.
I dont have the time to play every day. I am not in a corp, who could provide defense to me, while i am in lowsec. And to be honest, with PI moving me to lowsec the income of PI could not even come close to compensate the losses of sbhips that will happen to me.
Conclusion? Simply max the skills of PI, stay in Highsec and make low cash steadily. Else PI is again just for huge corps that have 20 or more industrialists with PI to build a functional harvesting and production program.
Too bad, but world in fact gets harder for players with less time and less interest on joining a huge corp. But as always the arguments will be:
Eve is MULTIPLAYER GAME. You dont want to play with others? Your problem then.
Eve is a game with PVP content. If you dont want to play PVP, dont go there.
What i am more concerned about is the fact, thatthis strategy appears to me very common, from other games which you CAN play for free. But when you want to experience the full content, you will have to spend a lot of time and money to do so.
I love Eve. I will for sure keep playing it. But i am not happy with the new features. It is so simple. Make ships cheaper, affordable to loose and you will find a population in low sec. Keep it still expensive to loose a ship and low sec will reamin what it is - dangerous for solo players, useless for industry and mining, not even a bit of interesting for anyone but for pirates.
Cheers, Iko
---
Honker:"Damn! Ok, I'll go and loot my wife now..."
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HighSec Gankers? Well, every world has its psychpaths. |
Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.06.14 10:48:00 -
[35]
I think you're confusing "encourage" with "force". No-one is being forced to do anything.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis
THE SPACE P0LICE
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Posted - 2010.06.14 11:00:00 -
[36]
In all likelihood, mineral prices will continue to crash until they reach the lower price floor the Tyrannis insurance change brought, baring any game play changes.
I'd change up the way you make ISK. Tap into that absolutely unlimited resource that is mission running.
***
Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space
Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2
WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2010.06.14 11:04:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Malcanis
I have long supported a change from rats dropping meta loot to dropping BPCs.
I've advocated this as well, though would suggest one run BPCs, so as to make the market simpler to manage. They don't have to be "BPCs", they could be "Stolen Plans", "Salvaged Schematics" ... a new class of thing. Same general idea though. The glitch is scrap metal processing skill - What to do with it. Simplest solution is nothing, which is fine by me though would make some cry, maybe allow it to help with salvage yields.
Mineral demand certainly needs a boost. More consumables, maybe DUST will help, don't understand why PI was tapped with it.
The Real Space Initiative - V6 (Forum Link)
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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.06.14 11:31:00 -
[38]
IIRC, Scrapmetal processing is used for drone compounds.
And it would still be useful for reprocing items which have been made. eg: PVP loot.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.14 11:57:00 -
[39]
Originally by: israus
but what I find interesting is a quote from the QEN
Quote:
The goal of this change is to bring hourly loot refining mineral yields from mission running to levels at or below the yield that can be attained directly from mining.
so essentially a good mission runner can still produce as many minerals for the market as a miner in the same space of time. and if deflation continues through this quarter and becomes a long term trend then we'll see more action from CCP to slow the input of minerals onto the market.
Note that "hourly loot" mean ratters too. And belt rats yielded (before Tyrannis) about x3 quantity of loot you were receiving from mission rats.
I would be very curious to know how CCP is measuring that "hourly loot" value.
As apparently they haven't jet found a way to differentiate "true" loot from T1 modules made for mineral compression I doubt that they have a real idea of what the "hourly loot" of a mission runner or ratter is.
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Guilliman R
Gallente
PRO Space Hunters
HUNTER'S BROTHERHOOD
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Posted - 2010.06.14 13:47:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Guilliman R on 14/06/2010 13:47:55
I still think they should remove all loot from all NPC's except Ammo. And keep the same ammo drops as now.
In addition, NPC's can drop a 'broken T1 Meta 1-4' item. One would have to combine a 'broken meta 1-4' item with a 'normal t1 item' of that kind and maybe few minerals to produce a 'working T1 meta 1-4' item.
Lore wise, this could mean npc's "tweak" their modules into a certain range (meta 1-4) and players can restore that module.
This way:
- Mineral inflation trough dropped modules is removed completely.
- Mining is more ludicrous
- T1 industry is slightly more useful
- T1 Meta 1-4 items enter the industry field.
- T1 Meta 1-4 items are once again somewhat rare.
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My Postman
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Posted - 2010.06.14 14:05:00 -
[41]
As my main is miner/producer/missionrunner, carebearing most of the time. Exeption was while living in wormhole, where you don¦t have a single quiet moment while doing anything out of pos, for spamming directional all the time.
There is no real use for high sec mining atm. And i¦m on Ikonias side when assuming that this is another ccp¦s attempt to FORCE carebears to low/null. And by cutting some carebears income by 1/4 the word "encourage", dear Malcanis does¦nt work, this is FORCE.
Mineral prices took a nose dive and are still going down. Don¦t know if Akita T is so much smarter than Dr. E. So this might be on purpose from ccp, which makes the "force" even stronger.
While beeing able to make a fortune in Wormhole by ratting/plexing/mining this might not be "carebears" first choice, as you cannot avoid pvp. Just assume you¦ll be there with a low skilled BC as you are a miner, you will even die more often. I did lose some AF and BC, i did¦nt care as i made tons of iskies (well losing my ishkur did hurt).
Going to lowsec is no option for "carebear", it¦s the most dangerous zone in whole eve, worst risk vs. reward region. Mining there is even more useless than in highsec.
Finally trying to send "carebear" to nullsec, you have to join sov holding corp/alliance. Not that what a low skilled char wants, putting most of his skills in flying a hulk.
So they give "carebear" PI, which comes along as a big turndown, as you won¦t be able to make enough income with.
What¦s leftover for carebear now? Everybody knows. Skill up for PVE, go from the scratch till you happily farm L4¦s as everybody else in mind does. There are miners who don¦t want to pve? Will there be a mass migration to producing/trading? Will there be a mass migration to WoW? I don¦t know, time will tell.
Thank heavens i did train up my domi to farm L4¦s as everybody else. I¦m skilling up Gallente Battleship 5 now, after waisting 10 days in those useless PI skills.
And when i get bored after saving the stupid damsel for the 10th time, i will fit my brutix for gank, suicide macro miners till my security status is spoiled, and go from the start from L1¦s for repairing.
Just my 2 cents.
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Sky Mart
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Posted - 2010.06.14 15:10:00 -
[42]
Quote:
The price of tritanium and pyerite seem to be following the same pattern though the price increase is much higher for pyerite. Tritanium rose from around 2 ISK per unit up to 2.8 ISK in late December 2006, dropping off slowly and leveling just above 2 ISK per unit. Pyerite increased sharply from 4 ISK per unit to nearly 9 ISK at the end of the first quarter in 2007 but has since dropped in price, trading at 7 ISK at end of June and is currently trading around 6.5 û 6.8 ISK per unit. The price increase, and then slow drop in prices, seems to coincide with an increase in production of capital ships throughout the first two quarters of 2007. What might have triggered this production increase could be increased warfare, and/or the price reduction in zydrine allowing for cheaper production of capital ships
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=498
I've been mining since 2006. And guess what the biggest change to the price of minerals has always been and will always be driven by demand. If you want to sell at higher prices figure out how to get the big alliances to do cap warfare and loose lots of ships.
Every time there is a small drop in price folks scream "macro miner" or "mission salvage".  The prices on average for minerals are still slightly higher than what they were when I originally started mining. They have risen to all time highs, and people have gotten spoiled thinking that should be the norm. CCP will continue to tweak things if prices get too low or too high, but it seems to me they always do something to move the pricing back to what it was when I started. So mine to your hearts content. If the prices seem low to you, hold on to the minerals, eventually the price will spike and you can sell at what you think it is worth...you may only have to warehouse it a year or so as it seems each mineral takes turns spiking as people change what they mine to reflect DEMAND.
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Unknown-Entity
Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.14 15:37:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Taharqua10
The profitability of mining is now at an all time low. I mine in empire as I don't have a sizeable operation to defend my corp if we mine in lowsec or 0.0 space.
I don't know what CCP or the players have done to the market but since the imminent arrival of PI & I don't know if there is a real connection but the sell price of minerals has all but collapsed particulary this week. It would be better to just dump your minerals in a can in space & leave it there for the jackals to pick at. By the time you arrange all the logistics, buy orders & the renumeration for the active mining players there is just nothing left that can sustain a growing operation.
Some of my colleagues have also noted that T2 is collapsing along similar lines & the T2 industry is also suffering badly.
I perform industrial activities to make ISK & support an expanding corp & at this moment in time, don't know if it's a bad blip, I see no future in mining for the next few weeks.
lol there are alot of ways to mine in these systems chief. Not all of them are full of big bad pirates.
Originally by: F'nog
Originally by: Stareatthesun
No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down.
Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S |
Ana Vyr
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Posted - 2010.06.14 16:49:00 -
[44]
Missioning becoming the only viable way to make ISK in highsec will lead to more nerfs, which may end up impacting player numbers.
I've done the 0.0 thing. Being a nameless grunt in a big alliance lost its allure extremely quickly. The lowsec risk vs reward equation is borked. That leaves highsec as the only fun place to play the game for some of us.
Personally, I like mining. It's a shame to see it end this way.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.06.14 18:18:00 -
[45]
Quote:
Losing Hulks - or multiple Hulks, will cause many miners to change professions, or better yet, quit the game entirely.
The only, single thing you'll achieve is to finally drive away the players and only let in the bots. They will be the only ones whose loss of 1-5 hulks won't make a dent due to sheer volume.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Seminole Sun
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Posted - 2010.06.14 21:13:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Losing Hulks - or multiple Hulks, will cause many miners to change professions, or better yet, quit the game entirely.
The only, single thing you'll achieve is to finally drive away the players and only let in the bots. They will be the only ones whose loss of 1-5 hulks won't make a dent due to sheer volume.
Agreed. I'd love to see a "responsible" Hulkageddon (i.e. anounce in local that a hulkageddon wave is coming then go nuts 2-3 minutes later). Sure, there'd be some afk miners that got reamed, but it would at least somewhat increase the odds of taking down some macro-miners too.
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.06.14 22:15:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Zartrader on 14/06/2010 22:16:07
Op, it was known mining would collapse a long time ago. Only the removal of bots will help. You're lucky mission and Drone loot was nerfed or it would have been worse right now. But I see no reason why there won't be another 30% drop at least (to the new insurance level which will then change, leading to further drops) unless something happens to the botters, there is a massive war or CCP make further adjustments.
The whole game is deflating which is why I said the last patch was a big boost to mission runners despite what others kept saying.
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Odysseus33
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Posted - 2010.06.15 07:32:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Professor Leech
Originally by: Jason Babbage
If the prices of minerals go down then the prices of produced goods go down. The miner might have less ISK in his pocket, but has the same buying power?
This is the case. For those who receive isk from agents and killing npcs their relative buying power increases. Miners are progressing rapidly towards slave wages.
This. If every other professsion sways with the market in New Eden, why shouldn't mission running/ratting? Thoughts?
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2010.06.15 07:43:00 -
[49]
If you don't grind rats 3-5 hours a day in an 0.0 system for your isk then CCP believe you should stop playing the game.
Apparently 0.0 is the "end-game" to this "sandbox" game.
We all have to play the same end-game, CCP wants us all in 0.0 so we can show how
awesome 1000 ship grid loading competitions are so more WoW kids will subscribe.
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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.06.15 08:53:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: israus
but what I find interesting is a quote from the QEN
Quote:
The goal of this change is to bring hourly loot refining mineral yields from mission running to levels at or below the yield that can be attained directly from mining.
so essentially a good mission runner can still produce as many minerals for the market as a miner in the same space of time. and if deflation continues through this quarter and becomes a long term trend then we'll see more action from CCP to slow the input of minerals onto the market.
Note that "hourly loot" mean ratters too. And belt rats yielded (before Tyrannis) about x3 quantity of loot you were receiving from mission rats.
I would be very curious to know how CCP is measuring that "hourly loot" value.
As apparently they haven't jet found a way to differentiate "true" loot from T1 modules made for mineral compression I doubt that they have a real idea of what the "hourly loot" of a mission runner or ratter is.
If we are to judge from the wailings in the Missions and Complexes folder, the value of the minerals from mission-rat loot was pretty significant 
Speaking from my own experience, the pre-dominion mineral value of belt rat loot varied quite widely from Sansha loot (unbelievable amounts of minerals) through Angels (a pretty good amount, definitely worth looting) to Guristas (only bothered to check faction and top tier BS wrecks)
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.06.15 08:59:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Seminole Sun
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Losing Hulks - or multiple Hulks, will cause many miners to change professions, or better yet, quit the game entirely.
The only, single thing you'll achieve is to finally drive away the players and only let in the bots. They will be the only ones whose loss of 1-5 hulks won't make a dent due to sheer volume.
Agreed. I'd love to see a "responsible" Hulkageddon (i.e. anounce in local that a hulkageddon wave is coming then go nuts 2-3 minutes later). Sure, there'd be some afk miners that got reamed, but it would at least somewhat increase the odds of taking down some macro-miners too.
There's nothing to stop the miners themselves organising such an affair. Join the MacroIntel channel, work with the people you find there, supply ships to people willing to do the dirty work, make it happen.
Now that the insurance subsidy has been removed, every miner is in direct competition with every other miner, and the macros are the easist (and most palatable) target.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Mashie Saldana
Red Federation
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Posted - 2010.06.15 09:19:00 -
[52]
So when can we expect super carriers for 10b?
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.15 09:39:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Note that "hourly loot" mean ratters too. And belt rats yielded (before Tyrannis) about x3 quantity of loot you were receiving from mission rats.
I would be very curious to know how CCP is measuring that "hourly loot" value.
As apparently they haven't jet found a way to differentiate "true" loot from T1 modules made for mineral compression I doubt that they have a real idea of what the "hourly loot" of a mission runner or ratter is.
If we are to judge from the wailings in the Missions and Complexes folder, the value of the minerals from mission-rat loot was pretty significant (1)
Speaking from my own experience, the pre-dominion mineral value of belt rat loot varied quite widely from Sansha loot (unbelievable amounts of minerals) through Angels (a pretty good amount, definitely worth looting) to Guristas (only bothered to check faction and top tier BS wrecks) (2)
1-a) the bounty on comparable ships in mission is approximately 1/3 of that of a belt ship;
b) the loot of a comparable ships in mission is approximately 1/3 of that of a belt ship;
c) CCP remove a large percentage of the loot from BS;
d) while the net loss is larger for ratter (approximately x3 the % loss is the same (again when we speak of comparable ships.
2) The distribution of loot for the belt and mission NPC is very similar, simply the belt and complex rats have more loot and higher bounties for comparable ships (same or very close hp/resists/DPS).
They were changed that way with the summer 2006 patch if I recall correctly.
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unixorn
Cosmic Odyssey
BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2010.06.15 10:55:00 -
[54]
A good change to do if CCP want minerals to come from mining is to remove hauler spawns too.
/signed
If I spent all the time and effort I put in EVE in RL, I would be immensely rich
Unixorn |
Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.06.15 10:56:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Malcanis on 15/06/2010 10:57:20
Again, I can only speak from my experience, but hauler spawns are not all that significant. They're too rare and the minerals aren't compressed. If the wrecks are more than 1 jump away from a station system, then the minerals are frequently abandoned.
Planning your industrial base around hauler spawns is like planning your mortgage repayments around your lottery winnings.
As for 0.0 dwellers not wanting to mine low ends.... they have the option of importing from hi-sec, or they can lease low quality belts to mining corps in return for low ends, or they can do ninja ops in to drone space (does Plush still give massive amounts of trit?). There are lots of alternatives. But please for ratting to produce comparable amounts of low-end minerals as mining will not meet with my sympathy.
EDIT: I'm pretty sure that 99% of 0.0 ratters would be happy to see mineral hauler spawns replaced with some equivalent like more faction spawns
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Dances WithWolves
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Posted - 2010.06.15 11:12:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Dances WithWolves on 15/06/2010 11:13:34
Two keywords...
Drone Regions.
Someone invade them already...when you can carebear drone minerals 24/7 without threat of invasion or being blown up and you can carry a carriers worth of mins in a hauler or two, then you have a crap load of minerals on market, supercap production. That doesn't even include the amount of high end ore systems theyhave, abc's and merc in very high abundance...
They don't even have an npc 0.0 constellation in the drone regions like every single other 0.0 region has in the middle of there space....
Then add insurance changes and mission drop / location changes = price crash.
Mining is just not worth it anymore along with plexing now that everything drops with loads more plex's spawning making faction loot worthless.
Dominion and tyrannis are the worst two updates ccp have ever done. They have ruined eve in both high sec and 0.0. and I didint even whine about the stupid fleet lag...oh woops...
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Bene Ilooquo
Gallente
United Girls League of Yona
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Posted - 2010.06.15 11:14:00 -
[57]
I still think the ultimate problem is macro mining. NPC corps give a shroud of protection for these.
Being able to War Dec 90%+ of the EvE population should be possible. There should be no indefinite shroud of protection.
I see a need for a harder, stronger push for players to leave the Big NPC corps.
I would do this by introducing a tiered taxation system for the NPC corps:
Tax is 11% for the first 3 months of a characters life
Tax is 15% for the next 3 months of a characters life
Tax is 50% for the next 6 months of a characters life
Tax is 85% for the remaining life of a character.
Taxation applies to missions, NPC bounty's and to reprocessing charges. Miners will have to join Miner (low tax) corporations or corporations that give them something for mining taxes back from the corp funds made.
This game is after all about interaction.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.15 11:26:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Malcanis
Planning your industrial base around hauler spawns is like planning your mortgage repayments around your lottery winnings.
Why you try to make me say something different from what I did say?
The point was very simple: if CCP want to remove loot pressure on miners activity they should do consistently.
While no one should base an industrial base on hauler spawn they help it and if you have enough ratters the effect is not negligible.
Originally by: Malcanis
As for 0.0 dwellers not wanting to mine low ends.... they have the option of importing from hi-sec, or they can lease low quality belts to mining corps in return for low ends, or they can do ninja ops in to drone space (does Plush still give massive amounts of trit?). There are lots of alternatives. But please for ratting to produce comparable amounts of low-end minerals as mining will not meet with my sympathy.
Again, not what I did say. I simply pointed outthat it is not "missioning" but all the forms of NPCing (with the exclusion of Sleepers).
Originally by: Malcanis
EDIT: I'm pretty sure that 99% of 0.0 ratters would be happy to see mineral hauler spawns replaced with some equivalent like more faction spawns
I am pretty sure that 99% of the NPCers would be happy with a single high value item redeemed in any station instead of the current loot from an enemy spawn, but again it has noting to do with my post.
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Helicity Boson
Amarr
The Python Cartel.
The Jerk Cartel
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Posted - 2010.06.15 12:24:00 -
[59]
Never fear! I hear your pleas~!
Time to reduce the barge population.
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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.06.15 12:32:00 -
[60]
Venkul, you're trying to read my post as if I'm opposing you. I was merely commenting on some aspects of your post.
I agree: replace hauler spawns with some other equivalent reward. Faction spawns are the obvious, easy choice. But really, hauler spawns are a drop in the ocean - they could be left in game with no noticeable effect on miners. They are negligible, really, but as you rightly say, we may as well be consistent.
Obviously the really important thing for mining is to change drone rat rewards to something other than minerals. Until that's done, messing around with things like hauler spawns is putting a band aid on a cut throat.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
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