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Mining is collapsing?

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Taharqua10	Posted - 2010.06.12 09:48:00 - [1] The profitability of mining is now at an all time low. I mine in empire as I don't have a sizeable operation to defend my corp if we mine in lowsec or 0.0 space. I don't know what CCP or the players have done to the market but since the imminent arrival of PI & I don't know if there is a real connection but the sell price of minerals has all but collapsed particulary this week. It would be better to just dump your minerals in a can in space & leave it there for the jackals to pick at. By the time you arrange all the logistics, buy orders & the renumeration for the active mining players there is just nothing left that can sustain a growing operation. Some of my colleagues have also noted that T2 is collapsing along similar lines & the T2 industry is also suffering badly. I perform industrial activities to make ISK & support an expanding corp & at this moment in time, don't know if it's a bad blip, I see no future in mining for the next few weeks.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2010.06.12 09:51:00 - [2] It's my belief that this drop is caused by the pre-expansion stockpiles getting thrown on the market. Speculation bubble going pop. In around 2-4 weeks we will see where the market is actually headed. -------- All I want is a better mankind.
Pookie McPook	Posted - 2010.06.12 10:32:00 - [3] Isn't it because of the change to insurance prices and meta 4 module drop rates? -----
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.06.12 11:04:00 - [4] Are you playing a different EVE than I do? The prices appear to be just fine. Tritanium used to be higher, but before it climbed was it at about the same price. Pyerite has seen a high this year and is now falling back again. Mexallon and isogen are falling again to where they were a half year ago. And nocxium is on a high. My advise: stop mining veldspar all the time. (Not you, Chribba. You can have it all.) --
Joe SMASH You Got A Purty Mouth	Posted - 2010.06.12 12:47:00 - [5] OP is correct. Mining has taken a significant hit. Plagioclase and Scrodite were both at ~16M/hr for a max skilled and max Orca boosted Hulk. Now they are down to 11M - 12M. (Above figures are for The Forge average sell orders.) With that said. It will take some time for the market to recover from an expansion. Especially one that adds so much to the market and removes so much from professions. (Add: PI, Remove: meta 0 mission drop nerf, insurance nerf, dronelands nerf) If I were still mining, I personally would be stock piling minerals. Let the market correct itself and then slowly release your minerals onto the market. If you need ISK ASAP, run missions. If missions are not availble to you, take time to unlock them and train for them. If all you know is mining and nothing else, here is a life lesson for you that will help you in Eve as well. Diversify! Locking yourself into one profession and relying on that one profession is YOUR fault. If that profession gets nerfed, it is YOUR fault that you cannot adapt to the new changes. As the saying goes "Adapt or die." With all that said... I am seriously considering selling my maxed mining pilot and his Hulk/Mack/Orca. Mining is the lowest profession in Eve. As long as it is macroable, the market will be low. CCP is not doing anything about the macros. The only way to boost mining is to make it significantly harder. But if CCP does that, everyone would come to the forums to whine that they cannot mine while doing homework/porking girlfriend/watching movie/eating dinner/doing taxes/driving to the store/playing WoW/brain surgery/air traffic control. The sooner you start to do something else, the better. ----------------------------------- Originally by: Kali Zero Warp core stabilizers are like condoms. Nice and safe, but they make it a little less fun for everyone involved.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.06.12 13:13:00 - [6] CCP has steadily been removing floors to the minerals prices. First removing NPC sell orders, then increasing Veldspar and availability and now the insurance change. The way the insurance works right now means that it might act as a floor for a short while (once minerals have dropped ~30%) but that floor will be removed with a recalculation of insurance prices. Then prices will drop towards the new floor, insurance will be recalculated, ad infinitum until the prices stabilise at some point well below their current values. I was tempted to mine when Trit was at 4 isk/unit, but now I won't touch a mining ship with a ten foot pole. Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
MindN soul	Posted - 2010.06.12 16:20:00 - [7] Well for what I see what stated is correct. I would also claim that there is too much push in PVP'ing (EXP. Alliance Tournament). Can there be any other Tournaments outside of combat?
Capita List	Posted - 2010.06.12 18:08:00 - [8] You can, quite literally, bring in more income running at a number of lvl4 courier hubs (yes, after the omgnerfedcouriers) than you can mining any combination of high sec ores.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.06.12 21:22:00 - [9] Originally by: Taharqua10 I don't know what CCP or the players have done to the market As foretold by prophecy one month ago... _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Ghoest	Posted - 2010.06.12 23:10:00 - [10] The isk supply decreased more than the mineral supply decreased(if it decreased at all). So we have deflation. Its pretty simple. Wherever you went - Here you are.

Capita List	Posted - 2010.06.13 00:32:00 - [11] Originally by: Ghoest The isk supply decreased more than the mineral supply decreased(if it decreased at all). So we have deflation. Its pretty simple. In that sense, miners are (technically) getting slightly more for the rocks, yet prices are falling faster than the true rate of isk deflation (as far as i've seen in the actual fittings markets). Regardless, it's difficult to say how low things will go, but it's certainly a terrible time to be mining anything, espcially in high-sec.
Amitious Turkey Gallente TarNec manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.06.13 02:05:00 - [12] They're doing it in Kestrels. Couldn't resist. I for one will enjoy the low prices of ships for as long as I can >.> I switched from mining to ratting in 0.0 for now, heh. Seriously though, what's up with the whining? Haunting the forums since '03 BECAUSE OF FALCONDUST! Originally by: CCP Navigator We love you all as well <3 NAVIGATOR <3
K'uata Sayus	Posted - 2010.06.13 04:15:00 - [13] It can't be all that bad. In Kuomi system I know of a character who mines 23/7, and has been doing it for months on end. He's not very talkative, tho..... EVERYONE SEEMS NORMAL UNTIL YOU GET TO KNOW THEM.
Capita List	Posted - 2010.06.13 15:26:00 - [14] Edited by: Capita List on 13/06/2010 15:31:19 Originally by: K'uata Sayus It can't be all that bad. In Kuomi system I know of a character who mines 23/7, and has been doing it for months on end. He's not very talkative, tho..... And each reset when I log into my indy/trading character I still see a small fleet of orca/hulk bots head out to the belts in my home system. If you went by the actual gameplay pattern of the miners, you wouldn't know anything is wrong (aside from their wallet not growing as fast). The sad part is, not all of them are bots.
RedLion Caldari State Constructions	Posted - 2010.06.13 15:58:00 - [15] too many isk sinks! Earlier 0.0 could afford buying minerals. Now they use all their isk for bills for nothing. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.06.13 16:40:00 - [16] Originally by: Amitious Turkey They're doing it in Kestrels. Dead funny. --
Quantessa Priory of Empire Wayfarer Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2010.06.13 17:11:00 - [17] I think it's very likely we'll see another Unholy Rage type botter purge soon. There are all sorts of good reasons for CCP to do this. The deflation in minerals emphasises how unfair it is to have someone mining 23/7 by botting as the margins get tighter for people who are playing fairly. It's been a long time now since the last one and the macrominers have been creeping back. And not least most of the macromining isk is connected to isk selling sites that directly hurt CCP's ability to profit by selling plexes to players. If and when the purge happens it will make things a lot easier for genuine miners (unless of course you're cheating). There's also some low level banning going on on a continuous basis. Someone I know was banned a week or two ago for macromining.
Pirokobo Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.06.13 18:58:00 - [18] Originally by: Quantessa Edited by: Quantessa on 13/06/2010 17:59:10And not least most of the macromining isk is connected to isk selling sites that directly hurt CCP's ability to profit by selling plexes to players. Macromining itself neither creates nor destroys ISK. It merely aggressively redistributes it at the expense of the legitimate mining players. Only a very few activities (insurance when it results in a net gain, mission running, ratting) actually result new ISK being brought into circulation.
A'ang	Posted - 2010.06.13 19:53:00 - [19] Originally by: Pirokobo Macromining itself neither creates nor destroys ISK. It merely aggressively redistributes it at the expense of the legitimate mining players. Only a very few activities (insurance when it results in a net gain, mission running, ratting) actually result new ISK being brought into circulation. What about: macromining>build ship of minerals>insure said ship>blow up insured ship>profit! I'd say you have made new isk...right?
Drivensane	Posted - 2010.06.13 20:45:00 - [20] Originally by: A'ang What about: macromining>build ship of minerals>insure said ship>blow up insured ship>profit! I'd say you have made new isk...right? Seems to me that most of those ships would get blown up whether a macrominer was supplying the minerals to build it, or the pilot had to pay more for the ship because a real player mined it and didn't flood the market as much/wouldn't accept as low a price/whatever. And assuming that's true, then we're back to the "bots mining just redistributes wealth to the disadvantage of miners" thing.

Jay Wareth Amici Noctis	Posted - 2010.06.13 21:11:00 - [21] Originally by: A'ang What about: macromining>build ship of minerals>insure said ship>blow up insured ship>profit! I'd say you have made new isk...right? But not by macro mining, I can buy a Raven off the market and blow it up for the insurance. I will have created ISK, but at a net loss of wealth to myself. The same is true for macro miners; they could "Create ISK" this way, but it would not be profitable for them as an individual. The individual person doesn't have any reason to care whether or not a given transaction creates ISK, or just transfers it to someone else. At the end of the day the macro miner will have more ISK in his wallet if he sells the minerals rather than blowing them up. Talking about "Creating ISK" is meaningless in terms of anything smaller than the entire economy.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2010.06.13 21:52:00 - [22] Originally by: Taharqua10 don't know if it's a bad blip, I see no future in mining for the next few weeks. It's not a blip, there has never been a future in mining. Mineral prices are just approaching their true value to the eve economy. A lot of people were posting about mineral prices going up as they didn't understand how significant the insurance change was. Then again a lot of people also fell for the nocxium manipulation prior to the patch. Originally by: LADY MEGA because of the PI?
Micrurus Decoratus	Posted - 2010.06.13 23:46:00 - [23] Originally by: Professor Leech It's not a blip, there has never been a future in mining. Mineral prices are just approaching their true value to the eve economy. This would hold true if the economy was static. It isn't, therefore there is no such thing as a "true value" for minerals.
Jason Babbage	Posted - 2010.06.13 23:58:00 - [24] Isn't it all relative? If the prices of minerals go down then the prices of produced goods go down. The miner might have less ISK in his pocket, but has the same buying power? In the end isn't it the miner that sets the relative values within the economy? At least theoretically anyway.
Svarty II Minmatar	Posted - 2010.06.14 00:03:00 - [25] Originally by: Micrurus Decoratus Originally by: Professor Leech It's not a blip, there has never been a future in mining. Mineral prices are just approaching their true value to the eve economy. This would hold true if the economy was static. It isn't, therefore there is no such thing as a "true value" for minerals. That's why the proper term is fair value.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2010.06.14 00:22:00 - [26] Originally by: Jason Babbage If the prices of minerals go down then the prices of produced goods go down. The miner might have less ISK in his pocket, but has the same buying power? This is the case. For those who receive isk from agents and killing npcs their relative buying power increases. Miners are progressing rapidly towards slave wages. Originally by: LADY MEGA because of the PI?
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.06.14 00:28:00 - [27] Edited by: Akita T on 14/06/2010 00:38:00 Originally by: Professor Leech Originally by: Jason Babbage [...]The miner might have less ISK in his pocket, but has the same buying power? This is the case. For those who receive isk from agents and killing npcs their relative buying power increases. [...] Correction : This is only the case for T1 goods, mostly just meta 0, meta 1 and meta 2, and in rare cases meta 3 or even the odd meta 4. For everything else, prices are unlikely to drop, for other things prices are actually as good as fixed (skillbooks for instance), and some things are almost certain to go up (T2 ships, to name something). Originally by: Taharqua10 Some of my colleagues have also noted that T2 is collapsing along similar lines & the T2 industry is also suffering badly. The only thing that's "suffering" in the T2 industry is people that react without keeping an eye on market prices and adjusting what they react (or better said, if they should react at all). Doing a lot of reactions blindly is bound to generate a surge in moongoo prices and a sump in advanced material prices (I won't even dignify intermediate material prices with a closer look) which WILL eventually go away as people start realizing what they're doing... or until T2 production picks up enough steam to rebalance the margins. There's actually nothing unusual about most reactions being worth a pittance per tower if you're using market sell order prices for all moongoo and fuel, buy order prices for advanced materials and no fuel bonuses for the towers... if anything, people have been spoiled rotten by the good ole' days of "post-Dominion" insane reaction profitability. In fact, pre-Dominion, a fair share of reactions (if taken into account in the above-described manner) would have actually been considered as reacted at a loss. If anything, the T2 market is slowly trending UPWARDS, the exact opposite of the T1 market, which is slowly trending DOWNWARDS. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Herr Wilkus	Posted - 2010.06.14 01:03:00 - [28] See, what we really need is a new Hulkaggedon soon. As miner income crashes, their relative buying power decreases. T2 Hulks become relatively more expensive (even if the actual price doesn't change) - forcing miners to work much harder and longer to replace them. Losing Hulks - or multiple Hulks, will cause many miners to change professions, or better yet, quit the game entirely. This, in turn will stabilize the mineral market, as supply shrinks due to miners giving up (or at least mining much less efficiently in T1 ships.) In short: save the miners by popping some of them, today! The herds need to be culled before they starve to death.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2010.06.14 01:32:00 - [29] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 14/06/2010 00:38:00 Originally by: Professor Leech Originally by: Jason Babbage [...]The miner might have less ISK in his pocket, but has the same buying power? This is the case. For those who receive isk from agents and killing npcs their relative buying power increases. [...] Correction : This is only the case for T1 goods, mostly just meta 0, meta 1 and meta 2, and in rare cases meta 3 or even the odd meta 4. For everything else, prices are unlikely to drop, for other things prices are actually as good as fixed (skillbooks for instance), and some things are almost certain to go up (T2 ships, to name something). I was thinking about purchasing power with respect to T1 when I wrote that, so a correction is in order. Minerals are not a significant component of T2 production and I have observed nothing about the price changes that was unexpected. Originally by: LADY MEGA because of the PI?
Celia Therone	Posted - 2010.06.14 03:20:00 - [30] Probably would have been a good idea for PI buildings to be built from minerals and bpos. More opportunity for industrialists, more mineral demand supports mining which got thoroughly nerfed via the insurance fraud fix.



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