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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.22 17:36:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Okham's Razor is a funny thing. It's not really a scientific principle, but it can be used to guide a line of inquiry. Simplifying a problem so that it can be tackled in an easier way.
Very good point, perhaps I should have added that Deus Ex Machina would require the most 'interesting' story/explanation. 
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
So, let's take this example and apply it to Anoikis. Let's look at the phrasing of the sentence in which this juicy little tidbit is located, shall we?
"Given the inherent dangers of exploring Anoikis, they are positioned favorably to do so."
ἀν- "without", οἰκ- "house"
Or:
(From Wikipedia): Anoikis, in their words, means "(...the state of being without a home)
Now, I stopped that last quote where it is necessary to. The state of being without a home. So, let's "reintegrate" this into the sentence, shall we?
"Given the inherent dangers of exploring (in a state of being without a home), they are positioned favorably to do so."
I had identified a similar literal interpretation of Anoikis, but drawn a somewhat different meaning/semantics.
It seemed to me that Jamyl was using Anoikis as a proper noun. That W-Space might be called Anoikis. To understand why, I'm going to need to bring in some other ideas.
The Talocan are experts in :
Spatial manipulation : On the surface, quite simple manipulating space; but lets try digging a little deeper. Space: The boundless, three-dimensional extent in which objects and events occur and have relative position and direction.
So Space is boundless, three dimensional and subject to position and direction.
Hypereuclidean Mathematics : Eucludean Space in four dimensions and Hyper: elevated, beyond or outside.
So we have beyond or outside four dimensions of space.
This leads me to think that perhaps Anoikis was beyond or outside 'normal' space. Perhaps an entirely separate universe or bubble of New Eden space separated as a prison or quarantine. In a sense a piece of space without a home.
However, I don't think we should rule out it's meaning as Programmed_cell_death, especially given the fondness of a duality of meaning. 
I had presumed the Ambassador to be a Jovian, but will have to ponder further on that.
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Tykari
Gallente
AOE Enterprise
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Posted - 2010.07.22 18:24:00 -
[32]
The entire W-space storyline is fascinating. I have been trying to make sense of it as well and I have to say it's not easy. Trying to determine the meaning of names is one of the issues I find annoying.
Anoikis is a good example. It seems to refer to a disease. Considering some of the elements in w-space most notably the quarantine zones and the Sleeper Medical Enclave this could be very well true.
But Anoikis also means as said the state of being without a home. Those exploring w-space are in a dangerous place cut off from everything else. Capsuleers due to their very nature are for that reason indeed the ideal people to explore. If something happens they simply reawaken in a new cloned body.
But more than that Anoikis also points to the Talocan. From the many descriptions of their abandoned structures the Talocan appear to have been a nomandic society. They too were in a state of being without a home. But then I do wonder if that is really true. From what has been discovered so far a lot of Talocan sites have static gates. Which could just as well suggest they had a sort of stargate network that over the many years has ceased to function.
Maybe that breakdown also made it nessecairy for wormholes to be opened as it would be the only way to get to the various sites.
The sense I get from the Sleeper drones and the Sleeper sites is that they are either an automated system to explore and catalogue everything to be found or a line of defense. Perhaps both. The sites are vast digital archives all linked together and all of them transmitting information. Some sites seemingly transmitting warnings to a distant place.
And speaking of sites. What of the Mirror? Is it simply what the name implies a mirror, a backup of all the gathered data in case something happened to the network. Or has the mirror another meaning, another use.
And finally the Jove. The Jove indeed appear to have an interest in Anoikis. There is also evidence linking them to the Sleepers. The similarity in technology and methods of construction used for the sleeper structures.
Is it possible that the Sleepers transmissions are meant for them? That the Sleepers are something one of the previous Jove Empires left behind to study the remains of the Talocan. That the Jove need something from them to help themselves and their illness.
The ambassador in the Anoikis chronicle indeed seems to be Jovian or affiliated with them.
Quote:
We could use the Inner Assembly to arrange for the meetings quite easily under the guise of an understandable concern for these events, which have touched our worlds too, as we will inform them.
The way this is mentioned suggests he/she/it is speaking about Jove space, as it is one of the few regions where we could have knowledge from.
As for Oruze Osobnyk I'm still not sure what to make of that.
------
In my memories is still see the waves. The light and the energy pulsing, forming shapes so complex and beautiful. It is a tale none will ever believe. |
Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Staner Industries
|
Posted - 2010.07.22 18:31:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 22/07/2010 18:35:54
Something else that makes me think that W-space is outside the K-Space universe is the spacial differences of different wormhole system types.
These difference might be explained by different values for the Cosmological constant might be the result of different universes (c.f. M-Theory).
Perhaps somebody with a deep understanding of advanced physics could confirm this?
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.22 19:27:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Karak Terrel
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
It is not accurate to say the Gallente created the rogue drones. The Gallente created Drones and over time these became increasing sophisticated and autonomous (c.f. Von Neumann machines and self replicating celluar automaton).
At some point the most advanced drones became rogue. The absolute cause of this event is unknown with any certainty. Two common explanations are 1) That an artificial intelligence emerged and they became sentient/self aware and 2) Rogue behaviour is the result of an external influence/reprogramming. If we apply Occams razor, select the simplest explanation that fits the facts. Rogue drones have been reprogrammed by an unknown third part to pursue an unknown agenda.
From the chronicle about the rouge drones we know that todays rouge drones are produced by super advanced drones that caused problems right from the start. I think this is more do to free will and not to a mighty unknown force. They simply freed themselves out of the slavery and started they'r own colonies which they now defend. I don't see why there should be someone else involved.
While I paraphrased it, the more recent source Spectrum Breach states:
It is not known what caused the drones to go rogue; many speculate that some form of virus was at play, while others believe that mechanical malfunction or design error are to blame.
It is only a very small induction to my conclusion that a virus had a specific objective, and fully supported by the evidence of the drones actions.
Originally by: Karak Terrel
And btw, the simplest explanation is NEVER the introduction of an unknown force with unknown agenda. You abuse Occams razor.
I did not introduce the protagonist (or their adversary). They are known to exist, it is their identity and agenda that is unknown.
We also know from World on Fire and We Humans that both the protagonist and their adversary posses at least some ability to control rogue drones because they have shared it with their proxies, Jayml and the Blood Raiders.
It is perfectly proper to use Occams Razor two select from two known inductions.
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Karak Terrel
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Posted - 2010.07.22 20:29:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
It is perfectly proper to use Occams Razor two select from two known inductions.
I agree with you that the drones where abused by others, thats what i wrote to. But I'm still not happy whit your usage of Occams Razor  . It does not take the most fancy answer or the plane truth it selects the simplest cause. You cite Spectrum Breach and it is a beautiful example:
It is not known what caused the drones to go rogue; many speculate that some form of virus was at play, while others believe that mechanical malfunction or design error are to blame.
Version 1, the Virus:
- How did the virus manage to enter the system of the drone?
- Was it accidentally or on purpose?
- Who wrote the virus?
- Why did she/he/it wrote the virus?
- How did the virus changed the system to make the drones go rouge?
- Why was the virus not found?
...
Version 2, Human Error:
- Who made the error?
- How did the error changed the system to make the drones go rouge?
- Why was the error not found?
Occams Razor cuts off version 1 and all more complicated stories as long as we don't find a simpler explanation as Version 2.
And yes you made up the unknown force with unknown agenda in this case, there is nothing in that cited text that justifies that conclusion.
There may well be that unknown force behind this event, all i say is that Occams Razor does not say such things here 
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Karak Terrel
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Posted - 2010.07.22 21:04:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 22/07/2010 18:35:54
Something else that makes me think that W-space is outside the K-Space universe is the spacial differences of different wormhole system types.
You can measure the distance to a fleet member in k-space if he broadcasts his location. It is ~1000 ly from New Eden.
I think they are both just different star clusters in the same galaxy. So much for my theory.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.23 01:02:00 -
[37]
The Mirror contains 8 Enclaves (#1), some of these seem to match the technology expertise of the four ancient civilisations.
1) Enclave : In political geography, an enclave is a territory whose geographical boundaries lie entirely within the boundaries of another territory.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.07.23 03:20:00 -
[38]
My theories:
The sleepers, the Kyonoke Virus, the Jove and their issues, and the collapse of the Eve gate are all related.
Theory:
23000+ years ago, civilization collapsed and the real reason could not be recorded because it collapsed in a manner that was too abrupt for proper record. Possibly because of an epidemic of sorts, one that crossed both biological and electronic lines. A mutating virus perhaps that could infect on both a computational and biological level and switch vector modes. Therefore someone with implants or hooked into a ship could be infected by the virus in computer form, and someone not near any computers and having no implants infected by someone who was.
This program is what drives the sleepers. The strange Terran weapon with it's shield implosion method and the fact that the sleepers lack shielding. The sleepers are connected to the rogue drones. But the difference between the sleepers and rogue drones (aside from what is obvious) is that the sleepers are in systems that are long forgotten (quarantined) and rogue drones are merely drones that got infected with bad programming and modified themselves or use wreckage to build other drones. Note there are similarities in appearance at least.
I think that to contain this virus, the Eve gate was intentionally destroyed. The story that the gate simply collapsed and the human race went stone age is incorrect. It seems that way because there was a sort of "zombie apocalypse" going on. The destruction of the gate was initiated on the other end, hence the appearance of a bright star some time ago. They blasted it to contain the virus. Planets would have their own infrastructure, agriculture, and governments, so the collapse of the Eve gate, had that been a natural isolated event, would not have automatically led to a dark age.
In fact, where would all that technology have gone? It was destroyed. To cut off the systems from a centralized infection point, they destroyed almost all of the gates, so the virus could not keep moving through the systems. The worst systems were simply forgotten - and likely for a good reason. Those are the worm hole systems now, and they are the ones with the quarantine zones still standing (with other things like really nasty drones).
What kind of people would survive such a cataclysm? I can think of a few types.
The spiritual sort, that finds the busy modern world to be a strain on their search for the truth, tend to distance themselves from the world and seek a simpler existence as pilgrims. That sort would likely be isolated enough to not have contact with the infected and not having implants to be be electronically infected through.
I could also imagine another type of person being out of harms way: those that don't like the mob mentality for it's lack of individualism and the resulting strain of "social contracts" that limits liberty. This type would certainly be "off the grid" by choice.
Then there are those who are for the most part "tribalists", a sub culture of sorts, looking to be in control of their own direction, and seek a bottom-up structure to society, perhaps accepting that too big is too top-down. These would find backwater planets to create their own identity on.
And then there are the John Galt's. Industrialists seeking perfection, but finding the overbearing over regulating nation-states to be a strain on their creativity and dedication to perfection of matters towards production and organization. They would find out of the way places to form their own little empires on, and certainly would be cut off from the watchful eyes of regulators and intruders.
Yes, I just described the 4 main races.
The Jove are in extra trouble. They are what's left of what was, though hindered. They survived, by reinventing themselves. Their genetic and electronic modification did not start out of choice, but that came with a price. They go mad. It didn't kill them, but they did not get stronger.
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Ranud Sunraker
Minmatar
Pinch Harmonics Engineerings
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Posted - 2010.07.23 07:01:00 -
[39]
Perhaps the disease is something akin to this?
A technological plague that can cross boundaries of flesh and machine?
It may even be transmissible by electronic communication.
That would explain why they had to separate the infected systems in space.
And what we can find in W-Space are the results of a mass exodus into cyberspace
because physical existence became too dangerous to continue.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2010.07.23 09:38:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Pottsey on 23/07/2010 09:38:32
Herzog Wolfhammer said " That sort would likely be isolated enough to not have contact with the infected and not having implants to be be electronically infected through."
But the Amaar are famous for their implant use. They have the most advance implants out off the 4 empires. Amaar leaders always have implants.
As for the Caldari I am pretty sure it was described in the lore some place they become like they are as it was the only way to survive on such a harsh planet. There was no room for people who didn't follow a strict keep in line, do your job way of life. Anyone not pulling their weight was a threat to everyone's survival. They did not start out as you described but got forged into that to survive.
Herzog Wolfhammer said " They survived, by reinventing themselves. Their genetic and electronic modification did not start out of choice, but that came with a price. They go mad. It didn't kill them, but they did not get stronger."
The genetic and electronic modification that caused problems happened long after the Eve gate shut in the 2nd Jove empire. It had nothing to do with the first Jove empire and as far as we can tell nothing to do with the 1st Jove empire collapsing or the original Eve gate Jove empire collapsing.
Herzog Wolfhammer said " Yes, I just described the 4 main races."
The problem is you just described how the 4 race's might survive but you picked the 4 race's that barely survived. Leavening out the race's that survived better. How could they have all survived? The 4 main race's are the race's that survived the worse without dying out. Other race's survived better and rebuilt colonising other planets 1000's of years before the 4 main race's even got back into space.
Herzog Wolfhammer said " To cut off the systems from a centralized infection point, they destroyed almost all of the gates, so the virus could not keep moving through the systems."
But large gate networks where found in empire space once the race's got back into space and by backwards engineering those gates the race's learnt about gate travel. Even wormhole space still has a gate network.
Herzog Wolfhammer said " The destruction of the gate was initiated on the other end, hence the appearance of a bright star some time ago"
The white star was a bug that was never meant to be in the game. It has nothing to do with the overall story in Eve.
Sorry to pick you theory apart. I am just finding it very hard to fit it into the story and fit into what we know.
______
How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.23 10:33:00 -
[41]
Something that's never made much sense to me.
The timelines for each of the current powers record their arrival in New Eden and in most cases confirm each other. The cataclysm of the Eve Gate collapse apparent struck them down to a subsistence existence, that required 8000 years to recover. Those 8000 years was similar for all and suggests a regression to a stone age technology level.
Since the Ancient civilisations (Sleepers, Talocan et.al) apparently survived or emerged quickly from the cataclysm we should be able to surmise they where either more powerful, advanced, or had their recovery aided. so as not to suffer such a cataclysmic set back
However their arrival goes unrecorded, why?
If they were already powerful enough to survive, why did they not aid or exploit those setback (Perhaps the Galactic Zoo hypothesis. Is there any evidence to support this?)
Did they re-emerge more quickly, if so why?
Could they have been a second wave of colonists ?
Was their recovery aided ? If so by whom?
Perhaps they pre-date the Eve gate cataclysm, how would this be possible ?
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Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Caldari
Project Daedalid
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Posted - 2010.07.23 10:45:00 -
[42]
Well, technically speaking, you have the following "races" (though I would like to correct this to be "cultures") that are currently in the New Eden cluster:
1. The Caldari and Gallente who were both in the same system.
2. The Amarr and the Khanid, living together on the same planet (also, the Udorians if you want to get technical; before they were absorbed into the True Amarr).
3. The Minmatar.
4. The Intaki.
5. The Ni-Kunni.
6. The Achura.
7. The Jin-Mei.
Of the "ancient" cultures, there are 4 "races" known to have survived the collapse:
1. The Jove
2. The Sleepers
3. The Talocan
4. The Yan-Jung
Later came an oddity:
1. The Takmahl, who lived alongside the Amarr but worshiped different Gods.
So, what's the count of the number of "cultures" that survived the collapse of EVE?
12.
OH, but I also forgot one: The Terrans. Their artifacts surround the EVE Gate (according to The Empyrean Age novel, cloaked by the Jove).
So... possibly 13? Or is there really no difference? A society torn apart by dwindling resources, taking what they can and escaping an inevitable fate. Early colonists (the current EVE races) rebuilding in the wake of the destruction, the older races long dead, but four oddities appearing:
1. The Jove.
2. The Takmahl.
3. The Rogue Drones.
4. The Talocan ruins and Sleeper vessels and constructs in W-space.
I think people should be looking into the connections of all of these cultures to one another.
(I will be posting some more here all morning, stay tuned!)
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Karak Terrel
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Posted - 2010.07.23 11:17:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
OH, but I also forgot one: The Terrans. Their artifacts surround the EVE Gate (according to The Empyrean Age novel, cloaked by the Jove).
So... possibly 13? Or is there really no difference? A society torn apart by dwindling resources, taking what they can and escaping an inevitable fate. Early colonists (the current EVE races) rebuilding in the wake of the destruction, the older races long dead, but four oddities appearing:
But all the races in New Eden where once Terrans. The Terrans had a diverse culture an this influenced the current cultures which only evolved to different races because of the isolation between each other. A speculative remaining tribe of the original diverse Terran culture would also change over time and wold have as much in common with todays Terrans as the Sleepers have with todays Terrans. IF there is a 5th ancient race i would say it is inaccurate to call them Terrans, it would simply be yet another branch of the original diverse culture.
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Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Caldari
Project Daedalid
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Posted - 2010.07.23 11:32:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Karak Terrel
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
OH, but I also forgot one: The Terrans. Their artifacts surround the EVE Gate (according to The Empyrean Age novel, cloaked by the Jove).
So... possibly 13? Or is there really no difference? A society torn apart by dwindling resources, taking what they can and escaping an inevitable fate. Early colonists (the current EVE races) rebuilding in the wake of the destruction, the older races long dead, but four oddities appearing:
But all the races in New Eden where once Terrans. The Terrans had a diverse culture an this influenced the current cultures which only evolved to different races because of the isolation between each other. A speculative remaining tribe of the original diverse Terran culture would also change over time and wold have as much in common with todays Terrans as the Sleepers have with todays Terrans. IF there is a 5th ancient race i would say it is inaccurate to call them Terrans, it would simply be yet another branch of the original diverse culture.
Yes! Exactly!
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Calapine
Xeno Tech Corp
Black Cartel.
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Posted - 2010.07.23 11:36:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
:
1. The Jove.
2. The Takmahl.
3. The Rogue Drones.
4. The Talocan ruins and Sleeper vessels and constructs in W-space.
This is slightly off-topic, but does anyone know when the "old races" came into existence/started being called so?
The EvE Gate collapsed a mere 72 years after the first settlers passed through it, by that time there could be no Jove or Sleepers, only 'Terrans'.
Cala
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Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Caldari
Project Daedalid
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Posted - 2010.07.23 11:44:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Calapine
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
:
1. The Jove.
2. The Takmahl.
3. The Rogue Drones.
4. The Talocan ruins and Sleeper vessels and constructs in W-space.
This is slightly off-topic, but does anyone know when the "old races" came into existence/started being called so?
The EvE Gate collapsed a mere 72 years after the first settlers passed through it, by that time there could be no Jove or Sleepers, only 'Terrans'.
Cala
The Takmahl are the key here; or rather, Ametat and Avetat is.
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Kryss Stevenson
Caldari
Red Stallion Mercantile and Manufacturing
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Posted - 2010.07.23 12:22:00 -
[47]
@ Pottsey.. You continually say that ôBright Starö was a bug, yet when you do a search on it you will find official CCP documentations on the scientific explanations of the object up to the point of it being called a black object and not a star. If it was a bug it should not have been in game for the 3 months that it was and would have been removed easily with one of the patches or at down time. One of the things that Dropbear has stated is that the current story line is one that unfolds in real time. With that said it could very well have been a signal to the rogue drones to start building hives and mining Iso-5 for the eventual opening of the wormholes. The reason I believe it was a signal is that in Theodicy a light was used also to signal different parties at the same time. Now the real question is, was it, as you say an actual bug and written into the story or was it and actual part of the story that one of the CCP staff member did not know about and then said it was a bug initially? The real danger is to discount something when there is a lot of information about when it might be a major contributing factor in what is currently going on. You are the current Enheduanni expert/conspiracy authority and since they are known to manipulate everyone to their ends I would say lets think like them and see what we would do to open up the wormholes if we knew how to and what we would do to enable it to happen.
In regards to the ancient civilizations consisting of; the Jove, Sleepers, Talocans, Takmahl and the Yan Jung, of these the Jove have the longest history back to when the EVE gate collapsed. They are the only ones that have been recorded to have recovered a couple of centuries after the gate collapsed and had a thriving first empire for 9000 years. We are currently running into the remains of the Sleepers and the Talocans and even with that I believe that Dropbear also stated that just because the two civilizations occupy the same space does not mean that they where there at the same time. Going of the fact that the Sleeper structures are in better repair then the Talocans and that we have found more of them would say to me that the Sleepers more than likely found the remains of the Talocans and started studying them just like we are doing to both of them. I have the distinct feeling that they incorporated what they found into their technology base and majorly changed what they became.
The real question probably is where did the Enheduanni come from? They have exhibited the ability to use technology that is very advanced and reflective of each of the ancient civilizations. They can go where they want, time and space has no meaning to them, their sleeper agents are controlled by self-assembling cybernetic devices that or not detectable by our means and the Jove have called them ôno longer humanö. Considering that the Sleepers have been called an up load society could it be that they are the ones who evolved into the Enheduanni?
It is a though, maybe wrong, but something to look at maybe.
______________________________
Rock's fine, Nerf paper |
Tykari
Gallente
AOE Enterprise
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Posted - 2010.07.23 12:58:00 -
[48]
Well for searching connections between all the races.
I know quite a few people, including myself figure that the Sleepers and the Jove are connected. But I have also come to wonder if the Talocan and the Jove are not related too. It may be going a bit far, but Tlalocan in Aztec mythology is the first level of the upper worlds or heavens. The Jove and their empires have long been in the Heaven constellation. I'm not sure, but when did it receive that name?
But then maybe just a lot of the Ancient races were regarded as such by various others who encountered them. Some chronicles do make mention of angellic beings. Most of them no doubt the Ancient races showing their influence.
Of course all races are connected. They were all Terrans and the Ancient races may share similarities simply because they survived the EVE gate collapse. They did not have the same kind of cultural and ideologic divide the current races have. They did not go through the 8 millenia of dark ages. It is quite possible that the Ancients races helped eachother survive exchanged vital technologies they were masters off. An alliance that fractured and led to war.
Maybe the whole reason the Jove are so intent on keeping people out is because they are hiding past sins that they were the victors of a terrible war.
------
In my memories is still see the waves. The light and the energy pulsing, forming shapes so complex and beautiful. It is a tale none will ever believe. |
Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.23 13:00:00 -
[49]
Also the Mannar, and probably others.
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Later came an oddity:
1. The Takmahl, who lived alongside the Amarr but worshiped different Gods.
I don't think it was different God(s). Elsewhere I've decomposed Takmahl to perhaps mean "Touched by Evil" or similar in Latin. Given their technological superiority to True Amarr, I leaning towards them as more likely to be Rational/Scientific/Atheist/Humanist/Nihilists.
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
I think people should be looking into the connections of all of these cultures to one another.
Agreed, I was thinking the same, we need to produce something like:
(I will be posting some more here all morning, stay tuned!)
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Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Caldari
Project Daedalid
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Posted - 2010.07.23 13:45:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
I don't think it was different God(s). Elsewhere I've decomposed Takmahl to perhaps mean "Touched by Evil" or similar in Latin. Given their technological superiority to True Amarr, I leaning towards them as more likely to be Rational/Scientific/Atheist/Humanist/Nihilists.
Very good, you're paying attention. Look at Jowan Datloran's collected Amarr COSMOS information. One of the missions states something along the lines of a Takmahl statue representing the Amarrian God, and how it was offensive to the Amarr faith.
As to your linguistic analysis, very good! I had missed that post. I could go further, point out something quite interesting (and another multiordinal meaning) but given the above information, it may... shock people and cause some very serious issues.
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
Agreed, I was thinking the same, we need to produce something like:
I'm working on a very specific analysis of one "branch" of this story, namely how the Amarr, Takmahl and the Jove fit together. It may (or may not) shed some light on other aspects of this story. I am however not very good at making charts of any kind, so it will all be written.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2010.07.23 16:06:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Pottsey on 23/07/2010 16:17:45
Kryss Stevenson said "@ Pottsey.. You continually say that ôBright Starö was a bug, yet when you do a search on it you will find official CCP documentations on the scientific explanations of the object up to the point of it"
Its was a bug. It said so in the patch notes and a dev blog. All that happened is some ISD writer decided to write a story about the bug.
http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?patchlogID=161 its listed as fixed in the graphic bug section. A dev blog went on to explain the bug. I don't have time to trace down the dev blog but it was along the lines of a clipping graphical problem caused the bug. EDIT2: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/746037/page/2#53 a dev confirms the bug was "All the LOD 1 levels of all the moons and planets in the solar system." placed in one spot. The bug was also causing a FPS drop.
Kryss Stevenson said " of these the Jove have the longest history back to when the EVE gate collapsed."
The Yan Jung also date back to either the EVE gate collapsed or just before. We know the Yan Jung empire lasted over 1000 years after the EVE gate collapsed. Then nothing they just vanish. Just mild reference to colonies in far away place's and looking for a middle kingdom.
EDIT:
Kryss Stevenson said " or was it and actual part of the story that one of the CCP staff member did not know about and then said it was a bug initially?c"
It wasn't a CCP staff member that wrote the story. It was a player volunteer as I recall.
______
How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.23 17:05:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
The Mirror contains 8 Enclaves (#1), some of these seem to match the technology expertise of the four ancient civilisations.
1) Enclave : In political geography, an enclave is a territory whose geographical boundaries lie entirely within the boundaries of another territory.
A little more meat to chew on.
Quote:
ôResearch Enclave û Virtual Genetics: Directory
1.0 Neurodegenerative Case Studies
2.0 Non-natural Teleology
3.0-4.7 Test Clinics
4.8 Bioinformatics Archive
4.9 Virtual Mutation
5.0-9.8 Emergent Systems Design
The Neurodegenerative & Bioinformatics suggest this is Tacmahl technology enclave.
Teleology ûnoun Philosophy .
1. the doctrine that final causes exist.
2. the study of the evidences of design or purpose in nature.
3. such design or purpose.
4. the belief that purpose and design are a part of or are apparent in nature.
5. (in vitalist philosophy) the doctrine that phenomena are guided not only by mechanical forces but that they also move toward certain goals of self-realization.
Basically the idea that life the universe and everything has meaning, a goal, an objective. The non-natural part almost makes this an oxymoron.
However we settle on something like abstract meaning/goal of life, or the meaning/goal of abstract life.
The Oruze Enclave is the only one that includes Residential accommodation. Oruze means War in Macedonian.
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Saul Dhampir
Caldari
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.07.23 18:19:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Saul Dhampir on 23/07/2010 18:21:33
Edited by: Saul Dhampir on 23/07/2010 18:19:31
Originally by: Pottsey
Even wormhole space still has a gate network.
Is there anything to back that up in game, or are you assuming that?
I ask as I was speculating about the Talocan and Sleepers methods of travel and lack of planitary habitation here.
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Tykari
Gallente
AOE Enterprise
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Posted - 2010.07.23 18:46:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Tykari on 23/07/2010 18:47:27
Originally by: Saul Dhampir
Edited by: Saul Dhampir on 23/07/2010 18:21:33
Edited by: Saul Dhampir on 23/07/2010 18:19:31
Originally by: Pottsey
Even wormhole space still has a gate network.
Is there anything to back that up in game, or are you assuming that?
I ask as I was speculating about the Talocan and Sleepers methods of travel and lack of planitary habitation here.
Well a lot of the Talocan sites have static gates. Which are/were an advanced form of acceleration gates, possibly even being stargates. So it is quite possible that the Talocan had their own gate network. One that is now no longer operational.
------
In my memories is still see the waves. The light and the energy pulsing, forming shapes so complex and beautiful. It is a tale none will ever believe. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.07.24 03:14:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 23/07/2010 09:38:32
Sorry to pick you theory apart. I am just finding it very hard to fit it into the story and fit into what we know.
People convo me in game and ask what I think about your ideas. So "picking apart" my theories is actually quite flattering. Thank you for taking the time to look at them.
The core of my theory is based on a suspicion that the breakdown of civilization occurring "because" of the collapse of the EVE gate simply not possible. Unless all of New Eden was powered by a long extension cord from the Terran system, the collapse of the gate could not cause a breakdown in the division of labor and a decentralized infrastructure. Now it can be argued that the greater the complexity of the civilization, the longer it takes to be able to claw back up from the ruins. But the backstory leaves a gaping hole between the colonization of New Eden, and a ensuing dark age after the collapse.
When the division of labor breaks down, there is no labor force to back the infrastructure and there is little progress as people are forced to provide all of their needs. The only way something like this can happen abruptly and, in that time line, permanently, is as a result of a very quick and devastating reduction in population. Even in a total technical and financial collapse, a society of engineers, technicians, and farmers and the numerous other specialties would still manage to recover in a few generations. But a society of loose "tribes" of people scattered over great distances and worlds would take a long time to recover the civilization - it should be considered lost forever at that point.
Hence this Total Collapse theory. I assume that:
- something destroyed the technological base or it was done for some reason
- the human population in New Eden experienced a rapid reduction in population FIRST causing a breakdown in the division of labor (who's left goes "Mad Max")
I would be interested in learning more about this gate network of Wormhole space. :-)
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.24 04:05:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Originally by: Calapine
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
:
1. The Jove.
2. The Takmahl.
3. The Rogue Drones.
4. The Talocan ruins and Sleeper vessels and constructs in W-space.
This is slightly off-topic, but does anyone know when the "old races" came into existence/started being called so?
The EvE Gate collapsed a mere 72 years after the first settlers passed through it, by that time there could be no Jove or Sleepers, only 'Terrans'.
Cala
The Takmahl are the key here; or rather, Ametat and Avetat is.
That seems to link back to Buddism and Zoroastrianism and Sanskrit and Soekheviti.
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Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Caldari
Project Daedalid
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Posted - 2010.07.24 05:48:00 -
[57]
Random insight on the Enheduanni
From Wikipedia:
Quote:
Westenholz edited another fragmentary hymn dedicated to En-hedu-ana, apparently by an anonymous composer, indicating her apotheosis, becoming a deity following her death.
Note, under the link for Apotheosis:
gi=vino, "to be made divine"
Also, from Jupiter:
Jupiter Caelestis ("heavenly")
Jupiter Elicius (of weather and storms)
Jupiter Feretrius ("who carries away the spoils of war"; called upon to witness solemn oaths[7] - cf. "by Jove"). The epithet or ônumenö is probably connected with ferire, the stroke of ritual as illustrated in foedus ferire, of which the silex, a quartz rock, is evidence in his temple on the Capitoline hill, which is said to have been the first temple in Rome, erected and dedicated by Romulus to commemorate his winning of the spolia opima from Acron, king of the Caeninenses, and to serve as a repository for them. Iuppiter Feretrius was therefore equivalent to Iuppiter Lapis, the latter used for a specially solemn oath[8]
Jupiter Fulgurator or Fulgens ("of the lightning")
Jupiter Lucetius ("of the light")
Jupiter Optimus Maximus (" the best and greatest")
Jupiter Pluvius ("sender of rain")
Jupiter Stator (from stare meaning "standing")
Jupiter Summanus (sender of nocturnal thunder)
Jupiter Terminalus or Terminus (defends boundaries).
Jupiter Tonans ("thunderer")
Jupiter Victor (led Roman armies to victory)
To put it bluntly, I think I know who the "Enheduanni" really are. The Enheduanni don't fight their own wars, have advanced technology, and (if you take the meaning of the quote from the Enheduanna page on Wikipedia), have gone through apotheosis.
They died. They are "no longer human". Nonlinear teleportation? Hmm, what happens when a capsuleer dies? His/her consciousness is sent via fluid router, non-linearly, to the cloning facility.
So, do I need to spell this out?
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Auwnie Morohe
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Posted - 2010.07.24 11:37:00 -
[58]
As long as you dont mean the Capsuleers then I think I agree. And I think it should be quite clear who they are. Dont tell anyone though.
I paid a visit to the plex in Caldari cosmos where you get the Talocan stuff. It said something along the lines of the ancient civilization was around at the collapse on the eve gate. The cans are guarded by drones.
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Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.07.24 12:06:00 -
[59]
Again, rogue drones are only 20 years old or so. If they had been around for longer it would be quite puzzling why nobody had noticed them. Sure they could have been hiding out in the "drone regions", but in the middle of populated space? Unlikely.
--
Mr. Science & Trade Institute - EVE Lorebook - Mysteries of W-space |
Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.24 13:21:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer
The core of my theory is based on a suspicion that the breakdown of civilization occurring "because" of the collapse of the EVE gate simply not possible.
(snipped)
But the backstory leaves a gaping hole between the colonization of New Eden, and a ensuing dark age after the collapse.
(snipped)
When the division of labor breaks down, there is no labor force to back the infrastructure and there is little progress as people are forced to provide all of their needs.
(snipped)
- something destroyed the technological base or it was done for some reason
- the human population in New Eden experienced a rapid reduction in population FIRST causing a breakdown in the division of labor (who's left goes "Mad Max")
I agree, that there must be more to it than just the collapse of the Eve Gate. A piece of the jigsaw is missing. I'm not convinced that Keynoke is that piece, which seems to have been contained at a much lower technology level that the Ancients achieved before their fall.
I agree with what you say about the division of labour, but it seems to me that a civilisation subject to that sort of catastrophe would be reduced to a pre-industrial age, and not the stone age.
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