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The line between GTCs and PLEXES, and scams.

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Menkaure Amarr LEM0N	Posted - 2010.06.17 08:50:00 - [1] Just sat with Eve open drinking my morning coffee, Jita local randomly open - watching all the scams and crap go by with my usual vague interest. What caught my eye was the amount of PLEX scams floating about at the moment: EG [08:40:33] xxxxx > WTB PLEX 330m need it quick <b><url=contract:30000142//29454612>[Want To Buy]</url></b> With 330k as the buy order amount. Now I've never been caught by a scam, have no problem with scamming in general in Eve - its one of the things I've always liked about the game. Wouldn't do it myself, but it has its part in the game. If you're too slow to be caught out by a scam, then you deserve it. But I wouldn't bat an eyelid if the scam wasn't for anything other than a PLEX... I know scamming with GTCs is a bannable offence, and always presumed this carried through to PLEX. I've just been told otherwise, though and I really dislike the idea. Is this not really treading the fine line between scamming people for real life cash? So there are people who've essentially bought a GTC, and sold it ingame to get nothing? This seems... I dunno. Even too unethical for Eve.
Jill Xelitras Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.06.17 09:04:00 - [2] Consider it like this: You can be scammed on a faction battleship worth 350millions. Same amount of isk, same type of scam. The only thing that may make scamming with PLEX even less ethical, is that some older players may remember the "don't scam with GTCs" rule and presume it applies to PLEX aswell. The PLEX sellers can avoid being scammed.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.06.17 09:07:00 - [3] From the victim's perspective, it's no different than if he got scammed out of a CNR ù he was after the ISK, after all, so the intention on his part was never to turn that PLEX into game time, just like it was never his intention to spew cruise missiles all over the place. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2010.06.17 09:09:00 - [4] Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 17/06/2010 09:10:31 Quote: I know scamming with GTCs is a bannable offence, and always presumed this carried through to PLEX. I've just been told otherwise, though and I really dislike the idea. Is this not really treading the fine line between scamming people for real life cash? So there are people who've essentially bought a GTC, and sold it ingame to get nothing? PLEXs are normal ingame items(and CCP owns all ingame items), so no special rules apply to them. There can be no scamming with real money. You have to take things pretty far to even consider that and at that point losing the ISK earned in a legit trade to scam could be considered losing RL money to a scam. This is ofcourse just silly. CCP has provided way, that allow you to securely trade PLEX via the ingame market or contracts, that the PLEX seller makes. People also can just sell the GTC, if they are worried about scamming. So there are plenty of secure ways to trade your $ for ISK. I don't see any issues with it in any way. The poor bastards who got scammed were greedy and took a chance in order to convert their PLEX a little faster or gaining a few more million ISK. They lost and propably choose security over greed the next time or take the same risk of getting scammed again just like with all other ingame items.
Niccolado Starwalker Gallente Shadow Templars	Posted - 2010.06.17 09:14:00 - [5] Me personally would have given plex trade ingame the same protection as secure GTC through the forums. I know though that CCP view it as an ordinary ingame item, and as such you can scam with it. I guess thats why I never ever deal with plexes, but keep it straight as possible - and doing secure trades only through account settings. Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL.
Disposeble Alt Caldari	Posted - 2010.06.17 10:10:00 - [6] GTC (and character sales) trought the eve forum are 'protected' by ccp because the client does not have the same oppertunities to check what he is buying. In game you are supposed to look out for yourself, or deal with the concequences. Posts by alts hide political affiliation and history. No political statement by any alt should be taken seriously.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.06.17 10:43:00 - [7] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker I guess thats why I never ever deal with plexes Right, because you can't use the market for that, or if you use the market, it's oh-so-unsecure that you couldn't possibly make sure you're not being taken advantage of, since we know nobody in EVE uses the market thanks to its fantastic unreliability... _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.06.17 10:47:00 - [8] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker I guess thats why I never ever deal with plexes Right, because you can't use the market for that, or if you use the market, it's oh-so-unsecure that you couldn't possibly make sure you're not being taken advantage of, since we know nobody in EVE uses the market thanks to its fantastic unreliability... This. It's actually more work to get scammed on a PLEX than it is to buy it 100% safely. And yet people somehow do it anyway... Ah well, as I said to another EVE player once, one of the beauties of EVE is that, while in other games stupid players are merely a source of irritation, in EVE they're a valuable resource. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Kyusoath Orillian Haters Gonna Hate	Posted - 2010.06.17 11:09:00 - [9] i've never seen any scams in eve. i don't know what you are talking about. i've seen some people make mistakes with contracts, but theres no way for them to take items/isk from you without your consent. the contracts and direct trades are all there for you to see exactly what you are getting. if you don't get whats in the contract then its a game bug or exploit and you should petition. seriously , just open your eyes its not even small print its right there in front of you.
Astrostoner	Posted - 2010.06.17 11:15:00 - [10] I feel so lucky I got scammed so early in my EVE playing time, and only a faction caracal so I can now avoid painful scams like this :s and yes, I did pay 30 odd mil for a basic caracal lol Live and learn I guess....
Menkaure Amarr LEM0N	Posted - 2010.06.17 13:54:00 - [11] Edited by: Menkaure on 17/06/2010 13:54:39 I dunno. I can see the logic behind it all, I understand why its legit. I'm even in favor of this culling some of the lesser-observant Eve players through a loss of ISK... but it still doesn't sit right with me. Essentially GTCs are RMT, and what the scam entails is never receiving the ISK someone just paid CCP for (even if it is their own dumbass fault for trying to be greedy). It just seems wrong... If someone received the ISK and then lost it all in a scam for Carbon/Chimera I could live with. I dunno what difference that "extra step" in my mind makes... maybe my logic is just flawed on this one. I dunno, the extra step just makes it seem... fairer I guess.
Th0rG0d Omnimodus Operandi	Posted - 2010.06.17 14:09:00 - [12] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker I guess thats why I never ever deal with plexes Right, because you can't use the market for that, or if you use the market, it's oh-so-unsecure that you couldn't possibly make sure you're not being taken advantage of, since we know nobody in EVE uses the market thanks to its fantastic unreliability... This^^ Why would you need to buy PLEX on contracts? If you do, you've scammed yourself. Adrift in New Eden
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.06.17 14:12:00 - [13] Originally by: Menkaure maybe my logic is just flawed on this one. I dunno, the extra step just makes it seem... fairer I guess. Your logic is flawed and since when was scamming meant to be done fairly?
Astrostoner	Posted - 2010.06.17 14:18:00 - [14] I think the issue with scams is that when you're new to EVE you dont really know that scams even exist. My nievity perhaps. Dont most people get scammed at least once? I knew nothing about EVE when I started, just picked it out as looked cool, and as such it was a very steap learning curv. Like life, always read the small print! I wouldnt blame anyone that got burned once tho.... twice maybe
Fumen Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.06.17 14:36:00 - [15] Originally by: Menkaure Edited by: Menkaure on 17/06/2010 13:54:39 I dunno. I can see the logic behind it all, I understand why its legit. I'm even in favor of this culling some of the lesser-observant Eve players through a loss of ISK... but it still doesn't sit right with me. Essentially GTCs are RMT, and what the scam entails is never receiving the ISK someone just paid CCP for (even if it is their own dumbass fault for trying to be greedy). It just seems wrong... If someone received the ISK and then lost it all in a scam for Carbon/Chimera I could live with. I dunno what difference that "extra step" in my mind makes... maybe my logic is just flawed on this one. I dunno, the extra step just makes it seem... fairer I guess. I agree with you about the trading of GTC and PLEX being sanctioned RMT. That's kind of the point of them: so players don't go outside of CCP to do these things (and end up getting their accounts scammed). It satisfies the player's need to 'self perpetuate' the game and play for "free". The big thing about a PLEX is this: You're buying an in-game item with no inherent value. You can choose to trade it to any player for whatever you want: nothing, a few isk, or a faction battleship. I have played games where this sort of baiting isn't allowed, but then, those games are supposed to be family friendly and don't even allow you to use more than mild adult language.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2010.06.17 14:43:00 - [16] Originally by: Destination SkillQueue PLEXs are normal ingame items(and CCP owns all ingame items), so no special rules apply to them. There can be no scamming with real money. You have to take things pretty far to even consider that and at that point losing the ISK earned in a legit trade to scam could be considered losing RL money to a scam. This is ofcourse just silly. It is of course more logical than silly, as Plexes are the ONLY item who can be bought using real money to a GTC in this game, and also the only one who can be "redeemed". So they are not normal ingame items, as all others one can ONLY be bought by virtual currency. Nevertheless, I can't support a scam protection for Plexes. CCP already provides the necessary. If the player is unable to read correctly, then... Scam is not a specificity of EvE, it happens in others games too at some degree, and some games use more real money than EvE... So if there is still a player who is still naive today, so they need a lesson. _______ With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made. We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have. - John Smedley, CEO of Sony Online Entertainment
Serpents smile	Posted - 2010.06.17 14:53:00 - [17] Originally by: Astrostoner I think the issue with scams is that when you're new to EVE you dont really know that scams even exist. My nievity perhaps. Dont most people get scammed at least once? I knew nothing about EVE when I started, just picked it out as looked cool, and as such it was a very steap learning curv. Like life, always read the small print! I wouldnt blame anyone that got burned once tho.... twice maybe Not here because while DLL EVE I did some research and through the rookie channel I quickly learned to be very wary of anyone offering anything. It was the time the "Lofty scam" was still possible, fleet up with people then gank them with no concord interference. In my first 2 weeks I got three of such invites: "lets go to 0.0, I fight the BS's and you salvage/ loot them!" A lot about EVE evolves about reading,reading and reading, be prepared even before you even log in. The manual just suxs. Must say I almost fell for a scam with Morphite. I just had to read the contract 3 times before I knew I would get scammed. Just don't get greedy. Take your time, if it is too good to be true then it probably is and the chance of you getting scammed should be really low. Then again you can trust (like I did) your CEO with his 0.0 adventure, donate several hundreds of millions, silo's, pos's etc, under a near guarantee that you'll get your money back, and well the 0.0 adventure evaporates within 3 months. No moons where mined to get our investment back so you're, basically left empty handed, with a few BC's down and a pod or 2, to complete the disaster.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2010.06.17 15:08:00 - [18] Originally by: Sky Marshal Originally by: Destination SkillQueue PLEXs are normal ingame items(and CCP owns all ingame items), so no special rules apply to them. There can be no scamming with real money. You have to take things pretty far to even consider that and at that point losing the ISK earned in a legit trade to scam could be considered losing RL money to a scam. This is ofcourse just silly. It is of course more logical than silly, as Plexes are the ONLY item who can be bought using real money to a GTC in this game, and also the only one who can be "redeemed". So they are not normal ingame items, as all others one can ONLY be bought by virtual currency. Are you seriously suggesting, that losing ISK to a scam in the game means you lost RL money to a scam? It just isn't possible to lose any real life money with the scam in question. You lost your money when you bought the items and there is no way to make this conversion the other way. No RL money can be involved in any trade happening in the game. That is all I'm saying and un-analytical thinkers can easily leap over that little fact, but that difference is significant here and the only thing that counts in the end. People do give value to their stuff and can give it a value in RL money, but that doesn't change the fact that no RL money was lost with the scam. Any loss of RL money happed before the items were even created.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.06.17 15:18:00 - [19] its really simple. plex = ingame item - its meaning out of game is irrelivant GTC = an out of game code - its meaning ingame is irrelivant
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2010.06.17 15:41:00 - [20] Originally by: Destination SkillQueue Are you seriously suggesting, that losing ISK to a scam in the game means you lost RL money to a scam? It just isn't possible to lose any real life money with the scam in question. You lost your money when you bought the items and there is no way to make this conversion the other way. No RL money can be involved in any trade happening in the game. That is all I'm saying and un-analytical thinkers can easily leap over that little fact, but that difference is significant here and the only thing that counts in the end. People do give value to their stuff and can give it a value in RL money, but that doesn't change the fact that no RL money was lost with the scam. Any loss of RL money happed before the items were even created. If you buy Plexes by virtual currency, no. If you buy Plexes by converting a GTC bought just before, yes. When you buy something, even if the money is lost in the buying process, you don't forget anyway the value of the object you just bought. So even if you are right in a cold way, this don't change the fact that the object can still have a real value for some people, whatever the type of value and whatever the EULA. If everything worked your way, there wouldn't be some laws against real scammers, as after all, the money was already lost. It could seem silly as we speak about virtual items, but today the frontier between virtual and real is not so obvious like it was (I still remember some amusing news about players be sued by the ones they scammed ^^). _______ With the NGE, I'm sorry about the mistake we made. We screwed up and didn't listen to the fans when we should have. - John Smedley, CEO of Sony Online Entertainment
Menkaure Amarr LEM0N	Posted - 2010.06.17 15:42:00 - [21] Originally by: Destination SkillQueue Originally by: Sky Marshal Originally by: Destination SkillQueue PLEXs are normal ingame items(and CCP owns all ingame items), so no special rules apply to them. There can be no scamming with real money. You have to take things pretty far to even consider that and at that point losing the ISK earned in a legit trade to scam could be considered losing RL money to a scam. This is ofcourse just silly. It is of course more logical than silly, as Plexes are the ONLY item who can be bought using real money to a GTC in this game, and also the only one who can be "redeemed". So they are not normal ingame items, as all others one can ONLY be bought by virtual currency. Are you seriously suggesting, that losing ISK to a scam in the game means you lost RL money to a scam? It just isn't possible to lose any real life money with the scam in question. You lost your money when you bought the items and there is no way to make this conversion the other way. No RL money can be involved in any trade happening in the game. That is all I'm saying and un-analytical thinkers can easily leap over that little fact, but that difference is significant here and the only thing that counts in the end. People do give value to their stuff and can give it a value in RL money, but that doesn't change the fact that no RL money was lost with the scam. Any loss of RL money happed before the items were even created. I think comes down to the fact that unlike every other item in the game (IMHO), PLEX do have an intrinsic value out of game even while being in game. They are the only such item in game that exists this way (discounting EULA-breaking RMT). They have the out of game value of 30 days game time, or however much you'd be willing to pay for it. What you're arguing is that the moment a person buys converts a GTC to a PLEX, it ceases to hold any real world value. This is a fair statement, but I do not believe it. Player A buys a GTC in order to earn some quick cash ingame. Being the dumbass he is, he loses it to a scam to player B. Player A basically paid for ISK and got nothing in return due to a CCP-Condoned action by player B. Player B meanwhile, earns 30 days of free playtime. (Be it used, or sold on). This saves him having to pay for a months sub (which is where the intrinsic real world value of a PLEX comes from). Since a PLEX stops you from having to pay real world cash, it DOES have a value out of game - even if it is only intrinsic. I suppose this is where peoples opinions differ. If someone buys a GTC to sell for ISK, is the transaction complete at the moment they get the PLEX, or the moment the get the ISK? Personally I believe if you pay real life cash to obtain ISK - you should get that ISK. (I'd also like to note at this point, that I have never used a GTC/PLEX in my entire 6 years of EVE. Never to pay for my sub, never to earn ingame ISK. I'm just trying to offer an opinion)
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.06.17 16:25:00 - [22] The only way you can lose your real life money to a scam is if the scammer ends up with your real life money. Anything else is just pixels in a game. How you chose to pay for those pixels is up to you. If you choose to drop extra money on a plex then manage to lose that plex in game, its no different to losing a ship you used that plex to purchase. The minute you 'lost' your real life money is the minute you bought plex.
Matalino	Posted - 2010.06.17 17:54:00 - [23] Originally by: Menkaure I know scamming with GTCs is a bannable offence, and always presumed this carried through to PLEX. I've just been told otherwise, though and I really dislike the idea. Is this not really treading the fine line between scamming people for real life cash? The ban on GTC scams had little to do with real life cash. The ban was there for historical reasons. Long ago, before there was any secure means of trading GTC's CCP encouraged the trading of actual time codes. These transactions were completed by send ISK to the seller in good faith that he would send a valid time code in response. Because of the complete lack of security, CCP needed to establish a zero-tolerance policy with respect to scams on those trades, otherwise the entire ISK-Gametime market would fail. Since then CCP has introduced the web-based secure GTC trading option. With the transition to the secure GTC trade method, they kept the old no-scamming rule around even though it was largely irrelevant. If it weren't for the historical nessesity of that rule, it is likely that GTC "scams" would have been allowed from the begining since the only way to fall for a "scam" was to choose a sell price that is too low. As for the example scam that you cite, GM intervention will not save players from the level of stupidity that they must have in order to fall for such a scam. If a player needed a PLEX quickly and was willing to pay 330m for it, that player would not be spamming jita trying to find a seller: he would simply by the PLEX off the market and save himself 20-30 million ISK. Obviously anyone spamming jita with such an offer is looking for a sucker, just like anyone else who is spamming jita with a contract offer. PLEX trades through the market are perfectly secure. The only real reason for trading a PLEX using a contract is if you are giving it to an alt or friend.
RedLion Caldari State Constructions	Posted - 2010.06.17 18:03:00 - [24] I don't see why people who buy plex to sell for isk don't get same protection as old GTC. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Syn Callibri Minmatar Blacklight Incorporated	Posted - 2010.06.17 18:04:00 - [25] Answer: Trust no one in EvE. (The views expressed may not be those of Blacklight Inc.)
Braskyte StarShard Industries	Posted - 2010.06.17 18:07:00 - [26] Buy PLEX from the market tab if you have trouble reading Contract info.
Matalino	Posted - 2010.06.17 18:18:00 - [27] Originally by: RedLion I don't see why people who buy plex to sell for isk don't get same protection as old GTC. If it makes you feel better, anyone who falls for a GTC scam is now as likely to be banned as the person who scams them.
Tuggo Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2010.06.17 19:24:00 - [28] Originally by: Malcanis in other games stupid players are merely a source of irritation, in EVE they're a valuable resource. [/quote Signature worthy
1Ekrid1	Posted - 2010.07.05 11:17:00 - [29] Edited by: 1Ekrid1 on 05/07/2010 11:26:23 this is simple: you dont buy ISK with real money when you buy a sub, you buy the opportunity to work to make isk. when you buy a PLEX, you're directly buying real money transformed into ISK value. its more direct, and therefor should be against the rules, like raiding an opposing side's vent to disrupt them, even though its good tactics, its against vent rules. There are just some things even a game should not allow. before a plex is used up, it still has real world value, but it has also attained in game value, due to it being traded for ISK. but it still has real world value, as gametime. once its used, it no longer has real world value, not once its created. want your average eve thread locked arbitrarily? call 1-900-applebabe, now featuring outsourcing to navigator! YAY!
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.07.05 11:34:00 - [30] Originally by: 1Ekrid1 Edited by: 1Ekrid1 on 05/07/2010 11:26:23 this is simple: you dont buy ISK with real money when you buy a sub, you buy the opportunity to work to make isk. when you buy a PLEX, you're directly buying real money transformed into ISK value. its more direct, and therefor should be against the rules, like raiding an opposing side's vent to disrupt them, even though its good tactics, its against vent rules. There are just some things even a game should not allow. before a plex is used up, it still has real world value, but it has also attained in game value, due to it being traded for ISK. but it still has real world value, as gametime. once its used, it no longer has real world value, not once its created. Wrong. Nice necro though, should start off a chain of nonsense for another 5 pages

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