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Syds Sinclair	Posted - 2010.06.30 13:58:00 - [121] ..That's exactly the problem. You stated that you are trying to recover the bank, IE recover your coveted INTERNET SPACESHIP BANK BOD FINANCIAL GURU. NOT trying to recover the people's isk. No one cares one bit about EBANK other then getting their isk out. YOU care about having an important position, and being more then just regular John Q. Spacepilot. I would wager that if you guys would have just liquidated from the start, paid back the depositors, and started fresh you could be running a successful bank right now. But after EBANK BOD's ego fiasco you wont get a dime out of any of the playerbase. You are not trustworthy. You have shown you don't give a crap about anyone who deposited isk in your "bank." And why the hell would you want to continue running this bank in the state that it is? Go blow up some spaceships! Do you get compensated at all for all this headache? Is being a financial czar that important to you? Pathetic.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.06.30 14:43:00 - [122] Edited by: SencneS on 30/06/2010 14:46:36 Originally by: Kieselguhr Kid Have you considered running a quick calculation to see how long those BPC's would take to pay off at ME2 if you got 100% of the added value out of them, given you spent 3 months not copying them? You didn't? I am stunned and amazed~ Have you considered that... no no You didn't. I'm stunned an amazed at the assumptions you're making!! Why run off copies when we already have copies which are not selling... OMG THE SHOCK THE HORROR ON YOUR FACE it's horrendous! I tell you what, place a buy order contract to me for the Titan BPC of your choice for 7B ISK and I'll fill it... So what do you say about that??? Was running to ME2 a good idea when we have BPCs laying around? Yes, Yes it is... Thank you come again! Edit:- Let us know if you want ME2 BPC's we'll have those in 120-130 days from now. Same price! Amarr for Life
Vilgan Mazran Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.06.30 14:46:00 - [123] Props to SencneS to actually responding instead of acting like a 12 year old (Ray) or making 1 idiotic post and then disappearing again (AC155). On to the actual post.. Originally by: SencneS Giving people the ability to make NPC goods out of thin air, you have idea if macros will be fast enough to create a new one, harvest hundreds of millions of units a day crashing the market. We are literally talking about spending a couple of million ISK and generate ENDLESS NPC Products. Macros are a concern with PI, especially since it is so easy to macro. A bit of research into PI would have shown that at least some things were still guaranteed to go up. Silicate glass for example: You can make 1800/day of it in 0.0 on the 24 hour extraction rate normally, lets say depletion doesn't exist and a macro triples that. That's still only 1.2 mil/day or 36 mil/month at the old npc price. Btw, it can't be made on 1 planet so there is also tons of hauling involved. Why exactly is someone going to macro PI for 36 mil/month when they could macro mine for 36 mil/day or macro rat for 36 mil in 2-3 hours? A bit of investigation would have shown that Silicate glass was 100% guaranteed to go up significantly in price. Originally by: SencneS Just why is there 480B ISK in unmovable assets? A Majority of it is Titan BPOs. Which created it's own Delmer.. I'm sure we could have offloaded the Titan BPOs for 30% under NPC. Even if we where stupid enough to cancel the 2 weeks from completion ME2 research. Lets assume we didn't sell them but leveraged them in a loan.. No lender is going to give us full price for the Titan BPO, 66B odd. So we're be taking a risk that if we got say 40B out of it for collateral, the Borrower could say THANKS FOR THE 66B BPO FOR 40B SUCKERS!! Just like if wanted the leverage the full amount, we'd hear "And have you stick me with BPO I can't sell for NPC, I don't think so!" The remainder of the 480B is stocks, Loans, Characters which all help with Industry. I personally don't disagree with researching them up to ME 1. It makes them easier to offload at less of a loss. You also aren't going to cancel ME 2 research w/ 2 weeks to go. What I do question is ever putting the BPOs into ME 2 research to begin with. An unresearched titan BPO is typically worth 10 bil under NPC or 12 under if you want to move it a bit quicker. ME 0 to ME 1 drops the mineral price of a titan by around 1.6 bil, so to someone purchasing its probably worth 4.8 bil (3 titans) more. Moving an ME 1 BPO for around 5-7 under shouldn't be that hard, and jives with what I've seen on the forsale forum. However, boosting it to ME 2 makes no sense. It only decreased the mineral cost another 550 mil/titan, so someone isn't likely to increase their payment more than about 2 bil for the BPO. Even if you DID manage to get 3 bil extra for ME 2 vs ME 1, that's still about half of what you could have gotten from a Titan BPC which would have taken equal or (I believe) slightly less time to make. Aren't titan BPCs terrible income, so why is half that a good thing? The Titan BPOs should have been liquidated months ago when they hit ME 1, not thrown in for another research cycle by people who give the appearance of being bad at math. Originally by: SencneS I gambled as much ISK as I could on NPC Items It's not like we DIDN'T do it, we DID! We just didn't have 1) The man power, 2) The ISK to do as well as a 4000 person alliance with what could be 50 times the capital we had available. Wtf is this 4000 man alliance nonsense. You didn't do as good as one person. And the manpower wasn't exactly hard. Set up a buy order, close Eve, relog, contract everything to red frog.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.06.30 14:56:00 - [124] Originally by: Vilgan Mazran I personally don't disagree with researching them up to ME 1. It makes them easier to offload at less of a loss. You also aren't going to cancel ME 2 research w/ 2 weeks to go. What I do question is ever putting the BPOs into ME 2 research to begin with. An unresearched titan BPO is typically worth 10 bil under NPC or 12 under if you want to move it a bit quicker. ME 0 to ME 1 drops the mineral price of a titan by around 1.6 bil, so to someone purchasing its probably worth 4.8 bil (3 titans) more. Moving an ME 1 BPO for around 5-7 under shouldn't be that hard, and jives with what I've seen on the forsale forum. However, boosting it to ME 2 makes no sense. It only decreased the mineral cost another 550 mil/titan, so someone isn't likely to increase their payment more than about 2 bil for the BPO. Even if you DID manage to get 3 bil extra for ME 2 vs ME 1, that's still about half of what you could have gotten from a Titan BPC which would have taken equal or (I believe) slightly less time to make. Aren't titan BPCs terrible income, so why is half that a good thing? The Titan BPOs should have been liquidated months ago when they hit ME 1, not thrown in for another research cycle by people who give the appearance of being bad at math. ME2 is a "We Win button" We all do it when buying BPCs we look at ME levels. If one BPC is selling for say 1m and is ME20 and the other which is selling for 1.1mil is ME40, the ME40 is the one we go for. Not to mention it should be much MUCH easier to offload as ME2 considering it takes months to do. We do actually have BPCs laying around so the choice was make another three which isn't selling or push it to ME2. In which we can list for even the same price as other BPCs on contract and guess which one of these extremely slow moving BPCs gets sold first... And you're right they are not TERRIBLE but they are not great either. The same amount of capital dumped into pretty much ANYTHING else would result in more profit over the same time period. The "touch" footprint is extremely light, so light in fact you can do it with trial accounts and keep your slots free. Not that it's slot intensive either but you could. So for the workload sure they are great, but when comparing capital to profit ratio they are not. Amarr for Life
Vilgan Mazran Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.06.30 15:20:00 - [125] Originally by: SencneS We do actually have BPCs laying around so the choice was make another three which isn't selling or push it to ME2. ME 1 or ME 0 for the existing? and which races? I'll buy up all your erebus/avatar BPCs for 6 bil/ea if they are ME 1 :P
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.06.30 16:06:00 - [126] Originally by: Vilgan Mazran Originally by: SencneS We do actually have BPCs laying around so the choice was make another three which isn't selling or push it to ME2. ME 1 or ME 0 for the existing? and which races? I'll buy up all your erebus/avatar BPCs for 6 bil/ea if they are ME 1 :P They are all ME0s.. How that came about was the Levi is about 40 days ahead of the other, when ME0 copies (the first one) Levi was the first one out. At the time all the talk about Titan nerfing was happening and no one purchased it even though we literally went from trying to sell at 15b to 10b cut 1/3th the price. Once we had 1 BPC of each we went to ME1 hoping the talk was just, the BOD agreed we need to offload these things with the all talk about nerfing. By the time they came out of ME1 the patch was in place :( And all the fears of Titan manufactures was a reality. We couldn't offload the BPOs at ME1 because it was literally right after the nerf. The choice to move to ME2 just to get to them to be too good to pass up was set in place. It's actually been really bad timing all round... PI comes along and we still had 2-3 weeks left on ME2 which we could have used that capital. Before that ME1 finished right on the Titan Nerf release. Before that Ricdic cancelled the Copy Job and attempted an unlock with less then a month to copy. You can see why we have a bitter taste in our mouths about these things. I haven't suggested it to the BOD yet but if we are going to sell these BPOs, it might be a little incentive to sell them along with a single 1 Run BPC.. Kinda like sweetening the pot. I'm pretty sure sell the BPOs for the right price, but I know we also want to try to make it work if we have no choice. So it's likely each one of these will get a single copy before we really try hard selling them outright, if anything just to break even on BPO Cost and Fuel. You never know, maybe ME2 is the magic level that makes them too attractive NOT to buy. Hard to say, consider I see the same people selling what I believe is the same BPCs on contract week after week I don't think ME0 will simple sell unless it's literally 3B which would make them totally useless from a profit standpoint. So using them as a sales pitch (Get a ME2 Titan BPO and get 1 run BPC along with it!!), might be the only way to sell em. Amarr for Life
Vilgan Mazran Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.06.30 16:36:00 - [127] Have you explored having BB sell them for you as a variety of people have mentioned in previous threads? I'd expect something like 5 Bil to Ebank, 1 Bil to BB (or Titans 4U, not sure who gets the isk) would be about the expected profit on them. Or just build titans in shadows of xxdeath/solar territory like many others :P Might be tough if you don't have the slots to make the components out there tho.
Weaselior GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.06.30 21:19:00 - [128] Originally by: SencneS ME2 is a "We Win button" you guys just keep on giving maybe you should try setting the bar just a little bit higher for 'winning'
Vilgan Mazran Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.07.01 18:59:00 - [129] So what are the plans for the 68 Bil from the sale of the ME 2 Erebus BPO to Titans 4U? Please, anything but "ANOTHER T2 BPO HURRAY!!!!11111" Of course, 5 seconds browsing the WTB forum would reveal BB is getting a hell of a deal considering someone is currently offering 71.5 Bil for an ME 1 Erebus BPO here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1345753
Ray McCormack Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2010.07.01 19:14:00 - [130] You want a job or something? Follow My EBANK Chatter

Vilgan Mazran Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.07.02 17:32:00 - [131] Originally by: Ray McCormack You want a job or something? ? I guess I'd be willing to take yours. Obviously only if it included the power to liquidate everything and get assets back to depositors in 180 days instead of "NEVER, WE WANT TO MAKE ISK AS SLOWLY AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE FIRST" which I guess is the current plan.
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.07.02 17:43:00 - [132] Give it a rest, Vilgan. Had you bothered to read the zillion other EBank threads, you'd have realised you were parroting what's already been said.
Ronaldo Carrare RR Financial Services	Posted - 2010.07.03 08:13:00 - [133] The attitude of the CEO and the directors just makes it impossible to trust ebank and try to deal with them.
Ray McCormack Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2010.07.03 12:04:00 - [134] Originally by: Ronaldo Carrare The attitude of the CEO and the directors just makes it impossible to trust ebank and try to deal with them. Um, the bank lost in excess of one trillion ISK that was entrusted to it and you're still contemplating trusting it at some point? umad? Follow My EBANK Chatter
Tavusii	Posted - 2010.07.03 20:19:00 - [135] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Ronaldo Carrare The attitude of the CEO and the directors just makes it impossible to trust ebank and try to deal with them. Um, the bank lost in excess of one trillion ISK that was entrusted to it and you're still contemplating trusting it at some point? umad? You need trust in order to continue operating as an entity after you have successfully made back everybody's isk and allowed them to withdraw it (which is your stated goal, correct?). If you just want to get back to 100% and then stop functioning as a bank, then why don't you just liquidate and give everyone their isk back, because at this point, anybody could earn their isk back faster than you. EBANK's actions and behavior only makes sense if in fact their intention is to never repay any isk whatsoever for the following reasons: a) Your plan surely can't be to continue being a functional bank after opening up withdrawls, as nobody in their right mind would do business with people who have attitudes such as yours. and b) If your plan is to somehow right EBANK's honor by being able to honor 100% of deposits, then it is foolhardy and misguided, as people would have an easier time making their isk back themselves, at a smaller scale and higher margins. Here are my constructive suggestions. 1. Liquidate your assets at whatever the fair market price is. If it takes two months, so be it. Don't worry about getting back to 100% liquidity. Mark down everyone's account to the bank's liquid value by percentage. 2. Allow the bank rush to happen. If 100% of your funds get withdrawn, so be it. I doubt that. You won't have 500 billion under managagment, but take whats left and use that. 3. Start behaving like a real bank, rather than some kind of forced investment fund investing in highly illiquid assets. Have cash liquidity requirements and invest the rest in secured, liquid, collateralized loans. EVE needs a bank. Allow other service providers to leverage people's EBANK accounts. IPOs, secondary markets, middleman escrow, etc. Stop thinking about earning people isk back, because frankly, you suck at it, and start thinking like a bank. EBANK seems to be the only game in town, and it could regain its place if it acted differently.
Ray McCormack Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2010.07.04 07:39:00 - [136] Originally by: Tavusii Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Ronaldo Carrare The attitude of the CEO and the directors just makes it impossible to trust ebank and try to deal with them. Um, the bank lost in excess of one trillion ISK that was entrusted to it and you're still contemplating trusting it at some point? umad? You need trust in order to continue operating as an entity after you have successfully made back everybody's isk and allowed them to withdraw it (which is your stated goal, correct?). If you believe that our attitude on the forums will engender trust in our operations then you are setting yourself up once more for disappointment. How we behave should have no impact on the trust or lack thereof in the bank when it resumes normal operations. Other factors should form the core of your decision to trust us, not whether we engage politely with trolls. Your measuring stick needs serious adjustment if you think good PR lends so heavily (or at all) towards our trustworthiness. Follow My EBANK Chatter
Inaara Serra	Posted - 2010.07.04 09:42:00 - [137] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Tavusii Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Ronaldo Carrare The attitude of the CEO and the directors just makes it impossible to trust ebank and try to deal with them. Um, the bank lost in excess of one trillion ISK that was entrusted to it and you're still contemplating trusting it at some point? umad? You need trust in order to continue operating as an entity after you have successfully made back everybody's isk and allowed them to withdraw it (which is your stated goal, correct?). If you believe that our attitude on the forums will engender trust in our operations then you are setting yourself up once more for disappointment. How we behave should have no impact on the trust or lack thereof in the bank when it resumes normal operations. Other factors should form the core of your decision to trust us, not whether we engage politely with trolls. Your measuring stick needs serious adjustment if you think good PR lends so heavily (or at all) towards our trustworthiness. you missed the point. he never limited the statement to forums. locking down peoples isk for months against their will & reluctance to liquidate and pay back now is what he is refering to.
Ray McCormack Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2010.07.04 10:23:00 - [138] Originally by: Inaara Serra you missed the point. he never limited the statement to forums. locking down peoples isk for months against their will & reluctance to liquidate and pay back now is what he is refering to. Then that is the risk we are willing to take now to achieve the goals we set. Follow My EBANK Chatter
Weaselior GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.05 22:33:00 - [139] basically all npc goods are now at more than 10x their former seeded price good job ebank~~~~
Daeva Vios	Posted - 2010.07.06 03:24:00 - [140] Originally by: Ray McCormack If you believe that our attitude on the forums will engender trust in our operations then you are setting yourself up once more for disappointment. How we behave should have no impact on the trust or lack thereof in the bank when it resumes normal operations. Other factors should form the core of your decision to trust us, not whether we engage politely with trolls. Your measuring stick needs serious adjustment if you think good PR lends so heavily (or at all) towards our trustworthiness. Good PR does not engender trust nearly as well as it used to for the obvious reasons. Bad PR should still cause people to pause, and pause again. Ultimately I rest easy knowing I pulled what little money I trusted you guys with out long before any of this mess. There is a proper way to handle a total failure and an improper way. I once respected many people who are currently associated with this bank, and expected them to know and follow the proper way. This is no longer the case. This was handled without grace. ------------------------------------- NECB

JASON W0RTHING The Devolved	Posted - 2010.07.06 05:57:00 - [141] Regardless, it is quite clear that the EBANK directors suck at making isk. As they have chosen the slowest possible ways to make isk with the 750b they have. You never addressed the insurance fraud question. That didn't take a friggin' genius to figure out and was absolutely risk free. Originally by: CCP Shadow What is thy bidd -- Wait. This thread, I have an irresistible urge to lock it for "being related to neither crime nor punishment."
Amarr Citizen 155 Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2010.07.06 06:13:00 - [142] Originally by: JASON W0RTHING Regardless, it is quite clear that the EBANK directors suck at making isk. As they have chosen the slowest possible ways to make isk with the 750b they have. You never addressed the insurance fraud question. That didn't take a friggin' genius to figure out and was absolutely risk free. My apologies for not running to this forum to post every time I do something. And yes, we were involved in insurance fraud but probably not to the extent of others. I think at its peak we had 8-10 bpo's going. If people feel like posting to confirm I sold them ships to blow up they may but I'm not going to do more than make this post and I'm surprised I've taken the time to even do this much considering there's really no reason to respond in threads like this. Good day. /finger
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.07.06 15:30:00 - [143] Originally by: JASON W0RTHING Regardless, it is quite clear that the EBANK directors suck at making isk. As they have chosen the slowest possible ways to make isk with the 750b they have. You never addressed the insurance fraud question. That didn't take a friggin' genius to figure out and was absolutely risk free. I made plenty of money, still am... and what limited EBANK funds I had access too made plenty too. If we had 750B ISK spent on speculation I'm sure EBANK would have been clear of the debt. The fact is we didn't have the funds. Droning on and on about how little the multi-billions we made with the little ISK we had access to is like yelling a 1 week old pilot that took his first frigate into low-sec looking for Rats and saying how stupid they are. All it does is make you look like a turd licker. While I enjoy the comedy of reading these posts you guys can go on and on as much as you like. Until you actually realize just how little ISK we had to spend on speculation, not because we didn't, I did because my venture had it available. Ray was filling a long standing long term supply contract, sorry we're not going snub our long term ISK generators for short term goals. Because it's worth more to us to keep that line open. Not sure why you guys have a hard time understanding a simple concept here. If we did recover the 1.2 Trillion ISK overnight you think we'd close up shop? NO... The party would just be getting started. So burning our ISK generator bridges for short term one shot gain is stupid! Amarr for Life
Vilgan Mazran Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.07.06 15:54:00 - [144] Originally by: SencneS Not sure why you guys have a hard time understanding a simple concept here. If we did recover the 1.2 Trillion ISK overnight you think we'd close up shop? NO... The party would just be getting started. So burning our ISK generator bridges for short term one shot gain is stupid! Assuming guidance systems only pay back 16x the original investment (very conservative) what is the estimated time for your damnation BPO to recoup a similar amount? blaming it on not enough isk available seems questionable when you locked a ton of isk into T2 BPOs that offer horrible return and are very slow to liquidate.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.07.06 16:33:00 - [145] Originally by: Vilgan Mazran Assuming guidance systems only pay back 16x the original investment (very conservative) what is the estimated time for your damnation BPO to recoup a similar amount? blaming it on not enough isk available seems questionable when you locked a ton of isk into T2 BPOs that offer horrible return and are very slow to liquidate. You keep mentioning the Damnation BPO and ignoring the others... Whats the deal with that?? Where the other bidder or something? Did we steal it away from you? And just how high do you think GSs would have gone if we purchased 70B worth... That would have 70,000,000,000 / 418 = 167,464,114 Guidance Systems sitting on the market.. Considering the average daily consumption in Forge was between oh lets shoot high... 1mil units.. Meaning we would have held an EXTRA (On top of what everyone else purchased) 167 days... How much do you think GSs would be now? If we had even 150mil unit of them on sale in Jita? Same goes for every single NPC turned PI Item under the sun. Even if we spent 10B per that's a lot of extra inventory. And I can tell you now we'd be killing the margins to get it sold first. Just like everyone else. In fact I just looked at the Forge Market... Guess what.. There was only 150mil units purchased between when Tranny started and PI was patched... So if EBANK spent 70B on GS's we'd have as much as EVERY OTHER PERSON WHO SPECULATED ON IT... That's not good, and it certainly is not a good market position. While you make half valid points, the point is extremely heavy with no consideration to the effect a massive inventory purchase would have. I doubt anyone one entity or person spent 50B on NPC items before the patch.. I spoke to a lot of marketing people with a lot more experience since the patch and almost all of them only gambled several billion and none of them considered gambling more then 10b. So regurgitating the Damnation BPO over and over is 20/20 hindsight my friend because no one worth a grain of salt dumped multiple tens of billions in PI Speculation. Droning on about it isn't going to change that fact... Sure now everyone wishes they had spent MORE! I wish I had liquidated every BPO and asset I owned to dumped it all into Enriched Uranium! But the problem still remains, if we all did that we'd ALL be sitting on a massive inventory which would drive the price down. Something I'm sure you understand, if you don't then I'm done here. Amarr for Life
Maria Yumeno	Posted - 2010.07.06 17:15:00 - [146] Seeing as all this was predicted by the god of M&D i would say that PI was/is far from being a gamble. Here The BOD has a lot to learn...
Ray McCormack Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2010.07.06 17:29:00 - [147] Originally by: Maria Yumeno The BOD has a lot to learn... /me hangs his head in shame... Follow My EBANK Chatter
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2010.07.06 17:45:00 - [148] Originally by: Maria Yumeno Seeing as all this was predicted by the god of M&D i would say that PI was/is far from being a gamble. Here The BOD has a lot to learn... We really have reached a new place when people are getting slammed for NOT joining the great market speculations. I bet you missed these too: Tulips Enron Worldcom Global Crossing Yes people may have purchased millions of guidance systems, and at present they are very high, but at some point the stockpiles have to be sold. The one thing I can guarantee is if people have purchased 1T ISK of guidance systems they won't be worth 1T ISK, and CCP will be wetting themselves with laughter for removing such an enormous pile of ISK from the game.
Grozen Caldari Titan Core New Eden Research.	Posted - 2010.07.06 18:08:00 - [149] Edited by: Grozen on 06/07/2010 18:08:28 why would ccp remove something that's clearly not an exploit they even encouraged ppl to stockpile goods to avoid market turmoil. knowledge is power
Weaselior GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.06 18:15:00 - [150] Originally by: cosmoray The one thing I can guarantee is if people have purchased 1T ISK of guidance systems they won't be worth 1T ISK, and CCP will be wetting themselves with laughter for removing such an enormous pile of ISK from the game. i see you're not one of the people who understands how this game works but how's this if in a year guidance systems are under 418 isk/unit without some ccp intervention I never post again and if they're above you never post again



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